r/judo • u/dekuthememer • Jan 23 '25
Competing and Tournaments This is from today's national's. I am in white. Please tell me if that deserved hansokomake
Only won third cause of this
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u/Knobanious 2nd Dan BJA (Nidan) + BJJ Brown Jan 23 '25 edited Jan 23 '25
You can see that you actively forced him into the mat. once you lift the oppeont off the mat you get mate, there was no need for the slam. IMO refs call was fine.
Edit: i orgionally only watched the final bit so judged that in isolation and I still stand by that call for that single event.... however blue should have been DQed long before for false attacks anyways after watching the whole video
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u/Past_Body_9133 Jan 24 '25 edited Jan 24 '25
Yeah, once you lift while defending against a triangle choke or an armbar, you cannot put ANY force down, unfortunately that DQ is yours. It's expected for a person that is in a predicament like yours standing and defending against a ground offense to take that easy ippon because this is NOT UFC
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u/WangMagic Jan 24 '25
Just watched whole video too, agreed on blue. Ref also let go a couple of the previous lifts and slams with blues shoulders off the mats.
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u/Laughing-at-you555 Jan 24 '25
really?
I didn't realize it was such a puzzy sport... That was a slam? You can bend joints but you can't pick someone up a foot or so and drive them down?
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u/Knobanious 2nd Dan BJA (Nidan) + BJJ Brown Jan 24 '25
The rule is to prevent someone actually slamming unfortunately this is a tiny slam but the rule makes. Not distinction in the magnitude of the slam.
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u/Laughing-at-you555 Jan 24 '25 edited Jan 24 '25
Well, I get everyone is going to say, "but, it is a rule!".
It is a bad rule. You can easily distinguish a slam with parameters such as lifting above the waist and driving down. Slams are illegal in other sports as well. None that I know would classify that as a slam though.
Magnitude is all that matters. That was a technicality, but it was not a slam.
I agree with you then. The ref made a good call on a bad rule.
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u/Knobanious 2nd Dan BJA (Nidan) + BJJ Brown Jan 24 '25
Iv seen smaller slams than that get a DQ in BJJ. It's all down to the ref.
Personally I think in Judo slams should be illegal as they are now... But if you manage to lift them off the mat for more than 3 seconds under control you should be awarded a wazari. Because essentially you have shown you could slam them and this would simply put people off doing this stuff.
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u/NittanyOrange Jan 23 '25
Yea, I could see that. Maybe a touch harsh, but correct by the rules.
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u/ScreamnMonkey8 ikkyu Jan 23 '25
For anyone wondering it's at about 3:24s mark. Blues game the whole time was to force an armbar and white got frustrated and 'slammed' blue after a matte. By the rules judged correctly.
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u/PrestigiousAssist689 Jan 23 '25
Come on, the kid was just probably tired of lifting. That is no hansuku mate, and honnestly, if you jump on any seasoned judoka like 20 time with a fake juji, I promise you will feel regrets.
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u/ScreamnMonkey8 ikkyu Jan 23 '25
I personally feel the same way, just saying I can see why the ref called it as they did.
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u/PrestigiousAssist689 Jan 23 '25
I don't really agree... you can see the white kids was not fully in balance while lifting, so yeah, the fall was a bit harder. I mean, it is a competition, not a tea party.
Too many ref. don't have sufficient own competition exp., which leads to that kind of interpretations.
Btw,Blue kids is lucky no one ever 'tripped' with one or both elbows in front of oneself, given the amount of times he tries juji pulling down.
My advice: if blue wants kids, learn another move ;)
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u/ScreamnMonkey8 ikkyu Jan 24 '25
Blue's strategy is not one I agree with but it's between him and his coach.
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u/Successful-Area-1199 Jan 24 '25
It's actually up to the rules which are beyond silly but obviously he didn't recieve hsm so.....
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u/DrVoltage1 Jan 24 '25
It’s the sport of Judo. Showing that frustration and not dealing with it within the rules is clearly why he got the DQ. Definitely sucks and shoulda got the boot, but you need to be more mentally disciplined.
I’m talented at ground game so I would have “tripped” or sprawled to north south or side control pin personally. And you know after the 5th time a shoulder is accidentally driving into em hard.
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u/MOTUkraken Jan 23 '25
He was maybe mentally tired and angry. It was clearly a slam.
I don’t think it SHOULD be a Hansokumake - but that’s the rules we have.
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u/SubparSavant Jan 23 '25
Nah man, white gi didn't just lift him and drop him, he applied downwards force returning blue gi to the mat. I'm just a dumb BJJ guy who doesn't know the rules but I can see he does more than just dropping him.
The results of doing that were obviously minimal and like I said I don't know the rules, but I have to imagine white gi forcefully returning blue gi to the mat played a part. It looks like something dumb done out of frustration, but if it's against the rules it is what it is.
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u/dazzleox Jan 23 '25
Yes, you lifted someone in guard/attempted triangle and slammed them back to the mat. Dakiage was removed in the 80s, matte should be called as soon as you lift someone off the mat, and slamming someone back down is a Hansoku make. If you just lifted them and didn't slam, the ref should have stopped it.
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u/Ficklenesses shodan Jan 23 '25
This is correct. If you are going to lift your opponent make sure to keep your opponent held until matte.
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u/Past_Body_9133 Jan 24 '25
Facts, I lifted someone up who had me in a solid triangle years ago, I had to lightly set them down because that is their entire back exposed even though he had me by about 20 lbs, sat him gently down, automatic ippon for me
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u/lewdev Jan 24 '25
Your uke had a triangle on you from standing position?
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u/Past_Body_9133 Jan 24 '25
No, this was a tournament and someone was trying to get me in a triangle arm bar. I got my legs underneath me, grabbed a fistful of his gi, grabbed him by shoulder and lifted him straight up. He had that thang in tight though....! Immediately wants his back cleared the mat, referee called matte and when I placed him down gently I was awarded ippon
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u/Uchimatty Jan 23 '25 edited Jan 23 '25
Yes. However I understand why you did it. Your opponent had the most ridiculous looking judo I’ve ever seen. Shameful display.
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u/rtsuya Nidan | Hollywood Judo | Tatami Talk Podcast Jan 23 '25
I don't know how he got away with so many false attack calls.
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u/Uchimatty Jan 23 '25
Right. The ref doesn’t seem to be very competent. OP should have gotten wazari at 3:00, she didn’t call HSK on the daki age, and the ref panel took minutes to decide on a very obvious penalty.
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u/disposablehippo shodan Jan 23 '25
The rulebook says if you unbalance Uke, it's not a false attack. Older, more sturdy competitors wouldn't move after those attacks like OP did and blue would've gotten his third shido in no time.
Especially in nationals the refs can't make "gut" decisions and have to stay close to the exact rules. It's not pretty, but that's how it is. But trust me, in two years blue won't make nationals if he doesn't change his game plan.
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u/rtsuya Nidan | Hollywood Judo | Tatami Talk Podcast Jan 23 '25
The rulebook says if you unbalance Uke, it's not a false attack.
they've already changed the rules to make it more about the intention. it's in the IJF referee seminar.
Especially in nationals the refs can't make "gut" decisions
I went over the rules on my podcast and this is exactly what I worry / have little faith in about.
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u/disposablehippo shodan Jan 23 '25
I went over the rules on my podcast and this is exactly what I worry / have little faith in about.
Rules that rely on objective metrics aren't a bad thing, especially when paired with video assist. Because of the world we live in a "because I said so"-ref isn't viable anymore. At certain levels (especially when money gets involved) subjective decisions will be challenged, sometimes even up to court rulings and this will destroy any sport.
Soccer for example implemented a tracking device in the ball to be able to tell if it was over the line down to the centimeter (maybe even Millimeter).
Of course for kids tournaments it would be weird to have rules like 65,5° worse/mat=Yuko. But it is what it is.
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u/rtsuya Nidan | Hollywood Judo | Tatami Talk Podcast Jan 23 '25
At certain levels (especially when money gets involved) subjective decisions will be challenged, sometimes even up to court rulings and this will destroy any sport.
i mean there's that whole Teddy Riner vs Tasoev decision... and what happened to Nagayama at the Paris Olympics... and it also goes as far back as Shinohara.
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u/porl judocentralcoast.com.au Jan 24 '25
That's now been changed - if the refs don't believe you have a reasonable chance to score; regardless of uke shuffling forward from it; it is a false attack.
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u/jon-ryuga U73 belgian judo student, coach & referee Jan 23 '25
Hansoku make for the slam, yes. You actually got good if you got third place: as it is hansoku make for the integrity on you partner, it's a direct hansoku make that should be for the day, and thus no ranking (at least that's how it is in Belgium)
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u/JudoRef IJF referee Jan 23 '25
Rank stays. But he shouldn't have been allowed to compete in the repechage or third place fight.
No rank is decided in case of unsportsmanlike behavior.
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u/jon-ryuga U73 belgian judo student, coach & referee Jan 23 '25
wouldn't a slam like this be considered unsportsmanlike? should there be a stronger intent?
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u/JudoRef IJF referee Jan 23 '25
I believe this one falls into the same category as techniques dangerous to opponent. Not unsportsmanlike in the "against the spirit of judo, bad behavior etc." hansokumake.
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u/dekuthememer Jan 23 '25
Pretty sure you are correct, but ther e is zero danger for the opponent so meh
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u/JudoRef IJF referee Jan 24 '25
The technique itself is banned. Actual danger in the specific situation is not the criterium for decision. You can see also divings with zero danger, when head isn't even touching the mat, being (correctly) called for hansokumake. This type of technique is either undesirable or dangerous.
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u/Cool-Shame9744 Jan 24 '25
While looking at the action preceding the Hansokumake would lead one to believe it is deserved, your opponent should have been DQ way before due to the multitude of false attacks. In my opinion this was a bad referee, but it's on you to not transform a bad referee a bad day for you
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u/jon-ryuga U73 belgian judo student, coach & referee Jan 24 '25
While I agree, not calling something because you missed something before to "compensate" is making 2 mistakes instead of one.
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u/don_maidana Jan 23 '25
The shidos for the blue one should came much earlier. A lot of false attack. You just were trying to avoid juji gatame from a false attack, referee should call mate before. The ref was bias, the blue one is a former champion? Yes, you slam him a little but to get loose from the "false attack juji gatame". The referee should have taken this into account.
Next time, be smart, do not play oponents game. He was totally messing with you, trying to get you mad, and he succeeded.
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u/dekuthememer Jan 23 '25
No mind games, just thought I might get score for that(: that's why I didn't fully slam him on the floor and held back but guess refs were a Lil high or some. He isn't a former champion buy my 4 year streak has ended now ):
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u/Froggy_Canuck ikkyu Jan 23 '25
Was it for the mini slam/disengagement at the end? What am I missing here?
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u/Austiiiiii Jan 23 '25
I'm surprised the other guy didn't lose by shido for all those false attacks. But yeah, you slammed the guy, and that is hansoku make. Your frustration is understandable, but you made a decision that endangered your opponent. He won because he got inside your head. Remember that lesson, and don't let a frustrating opponent overcome your emotional integrity again. Not all fights are won with strength, speed or technique.
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u/Garagatt Jan 23 '25
That was a textbook slam. It doesn't matter how hard it was or how far your opponent was lifted. There was an active movement downwards. Judge call was correct.
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u/tthechosendummy Jan 23 '25
I thought the DQ there harsh, but not a crazy call. Was blue not engaging in false attacks/pulling guard? That should be hansokumake after 4-5 of those
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u/al22_v shodan Jan 24 '25
The blue should be given inducing to newaza penalty instead zzz he keeps on spamming weak attacks.
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u/JudoRef IJF referee Jan 23 '25
First a disclaimer - it's a low quality video, from a distance. Can't really see the situation that well. But from what I can see I'd say the decision was made according to the rules. You lift him up and you slam him down. No need for that (even if it was from a low height).
It's a decision WITHIN the rules. It might be OK even if it didn't get called. Limit situation in my opinion (that's probably why it took so long to decide). With seniors it would probably go by. Usually refs are more strict with younger age categories - use limit situations to teach and deter such actions in the future.
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u/unknownuser19875 Jan 23 '25
Yes you deserved it.. both of you also probably should have gotten a shido and a keikoku for stalling. You both were hunched over the whole entire match doing minimal attacking. The one in the blue definitely was bjj
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u/aluman8 Jan 23 '25
Judo’s rules are very frustrating to endure. When athletes have to adjust their strategy based on who is reffing means it’s much too convoluted of a system. Feeling like you get a match stolen from you by the official is worse than losing by ippon. Judo needs to have a much more simple and clearly defined rule set that can be consistently managed by various refs.
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u/ukifrit blind judoka Jan 24 '25
the daki-age rule is there for decades. All athletes regardless of sport must adapt to the rules, btw. I see no point in complaining about that.
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u/MA_Dec0y nidan Jan 24 '25
Tbh blue shd have been dq first cus of the false attacks but perhaps there was smth we missed from the video angle but the slamming from that arm bar position is 100% Hansoku
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u/TheAKgaming does not compete Jan 23 '25
I mean to me this is a clear attempt at daki age, so you definitely deserved it
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u/1308lee Jan 24 '25
Bring back slams!
This sort of judo is absolutely dog shit. Spamming shite, cheesy techniques like blue is doing will get flying subs banned (like they did with leg grabs decades ago).
In my (likely polarising) opinion, if while defending a flying arm bar attempt, you can raise and slam your opponent into next week, you should win by ippon.
I feel like the little baby slam you were DQd for wasn’t worth it. If you’d given him a concussion, maybe… but again, I’d argue that should be a win.
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u/lewdev Jan 24 '25
Your comment reminds me of that video of a guy doing a flying armbar and slammed perfectly on his neck and made a terrifying groan and gurgle noise. To me, that's enough to keep slamming and flying armbars from judo.
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u/JudoRef IJF referee Jan 23 '25
One thing that's bothering me in the video is the size of the safety area between two mats. Two meters only. With the new rules regarding fighting on the edge that's probably unsafe.
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u/small_pint_of_lazy Jan 24 '25
Oh you absolutely deserved that. You also should habe gotten your first shido a lot earlier
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u/GoochBlender sambo Jan 23 '25
So you can spam half cocked armbars and flip guys through the air and onto the mat as hard as you want, but god forbid you lift them a foot off the ground and slam.
What a joke Judo has become.
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u/ReddJudicata shodan Jan 24 '25
This is a very old rule. Like 40 years.
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u/GoochBlender sambo Jan 24 '25
Still, you have to admit it's really dumb.
Do you know why it was made?
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u/Big-Standard-5687 Jan 23 '25
His strategy needs to be punished as he is only defensive and only going for ground work But honestly the slam was out if line, and i think you know it You got pissed and you let the rage out. 100% handokumake. Judo is a gentleman sport not MMA. Learning to control your emotions is part of the process, don't worry bro we all make mistakes.
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u/powerhearse Jan 24 '25
In fairness OP didn't attack either, if anything he attacked less and was more defensive. Most of his time he spent sitting his weight back so far to avoid the sacrifice throw that he couldn't launch any effective offense
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u/dekuthememer Jan 23 '25
As I said, there was 0 anger behind that and only intention to get some king of score(: if I were really mad I wouldn't have held back while slamming him, because as you can notice, I did.
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u/Highest-Adjudicator Jan 24 '25
It’s the correct call according to the rules but I would have wanted to do the same if my opponent fought like this. Disgraceful. However, the best revenge is to win the match, not let your frustration give them a victory.
If you want to make them think twice about pulling guard—Just lift them up as high as you can and then stop and let go of any grips you have. They will be forced to make an undignified exit from the position when mate is called. This will make them look bad to the ref. Either they will have to let themselves fall, or cling to you as they try awkwardly to get their footing before letting go.
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u/skebeojii Jan 24 '25
You dropped him, on his head. I know it was just a couple inches, but it is a long standing rule that if you pick someone up off the mat the ref should call mate and you should place them softly back on the mat. Bigtime hansokumake
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u/Powerful-Gas-3702 Jan 24 '25
Hey, I’m new to judo- quick question… are you allowed to pull guard and go for a quick arm bar like that? He did it multiple times. He even attempted a flying Armbar except instead of jumping to it, he pulled guard to do it
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Jan 24 '25
Yes you do , but to be honest I can see you did it out of frustration,he looked like a very annoying person to fight.
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u/velocipeter Jan 24 '25
You picked him up and slammed him down on his exposed neck. That's a disqualification.
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u/Barhud shodan Jan 24 '25
Yes - those spam tomoe names were infuriating and you got mad for a second but a clear if small small still hansoku make
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u/AwkwardFriendship317 Jan 24 '25
I would have given a shido for stalling much sooner and yes you totally deserved hansokomake, clearly a body slam.
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u/Character-Milk-3792 Jan 24 '25
Definitely. I can see how you were frustrated by your opponent, but you did what you did. Always another time.
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u/Ippon20 Jan 24 '25
Yes you slammed him down. Also to me you should have gotten more shidos you only legitimately attacked him once. You were defensive the whole time IMO and the little kick foot sweeps don’t count.
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u/lewdev Jan 24 '25
I think if you threw in a ouchi or kouchi leg, it would look like a throw; otherwise, it looked like a typical slam attempt from armbar. You were probably tired and frustrated as I was just watching fake throw after fake throw to force in the juji. I think this was more of a test of patience. He was that close to getting DQ'ed too.
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u/KimchiSamuraiDad Jan 25 '25
May have been heat of the moment but you def slammed him down a bit. Enough for the dq
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u/TheRealLukeShields Jan 25 '25
This was very boring. Kinda felt like white had no offensive game.
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u/TheRealLukeShields Jan 25 '25
So in judo if he goes shitty armbar you can't punish him for it? It's more me being an ignorant bjj guy. I'm sure you did you best in the circumstances.
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u/dekuthememer Jan 25 '25
Blue closed the whole fight trying to go for that, as you can see. Tried to move him with some leg activity but going for something else under those conditions would've been very bad for me.
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u/Snoo-37144 Jan 26 '25
Ref made a legit call. It wasn't the one action, but, imho, ref probably noticed self-control is what led to the minor violation, which is what turned out into a major one, which led to the hansoku-make.
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u/RazzmatazzFar9969 Jan 26 '25
I don't know where you're at, but here in Japan I don't think what the guy in the blue gi is doing would be considered judo.
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u/dekuthememer Jan 23 '25
Disclaimer: I had no intention of hurting him and wasn't mad. I was simply trying to get a score out of that. No one knew that they were checking hansokomake and we all taught it was for the wazaari earlier... pretty sure a slam like that where he is not in danger and isn't powerfull at all isn't hansokomake, and I think that my coach, who is an Olympic medalist, knows the rules... not trying to be rude or anything, just explaining the situation better.
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u/lioneldy Jan 24 '25
It was bad sportsmanship to pull him and push him on the ground like that Yes, You deserved the DQ PS : you also put two times your opponent’s weight on his head. it is a very dangerous behaviour and it could have made him disabled by damaging his spine.
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u/757Brown1 Jan 24 '25
Yes, the rules are the rules. Most of my chokes I used to use are illegal now.
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u/Zeronero2 Jan 24 '25
Yes you did and a lot of shidos by the new rules of judo,opponent was constantly attacking.You should get hansokomake even at the first attempt of slamming opponent on the ground but the judges gave you a lot of chances.Thats okay ,with every competition you will gain more experience and with experience will come patience and self control!
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u/The_One_Who_Comments nikyu Jan 26 '25
Lol. One inactivity shido for him. Many false attacks by the opponent.
There was only one slam attempt (success technically)
I didn't realize Judo and BJJ agreed that 5 inches is a deadly height for daki age.
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u/Zeronero2 Jan 26 '25
I think you know more about BJJ and less about judo,especially modern judo.You dont have to hurt your opponent to get disqualified or you opponent doesn't have to do perfect attacks to make your to get shido,wish you all more experience and lest time spent or arguing ,good luck!
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u/The_One_Who_Comments nikyu Jan 26 '25
I'm aware that it's a DQ. I just think it's stupid. Feel free to discuss, or not.
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u/JazzlikeSavings yonkyu Jan 24 '25
It was definitely unnecessary. But not disqualify worthy. Bro really wanted your arm.
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u/Comprehensive-Cry197 Jan 24 '25
fuck israel
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u/dekuthememer Jan 25 '25
Wanna fight dumbass?
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u/757Brown1 Jan 24 '25
I took Judo over 40 years ago. I’m disgusted with the rule changes. Your opponent attempts sacrifice throws but they don’t give you time to attack him when he is on his back all because his attempt had no effect other than him trying to get you in an armbar from the bottom. Not sure if you got the last penalty for “stalling” ( newer rules) or that when he was on his back you picked him up a little and dropped him on his back again. Are they thinking you might hurt him. It’s Judo. If you did that in my day you may have been awarded a Koka or Yuko for that move. You would have been awarded that is as long as it happened before referee called matte to stand you up. If the Ref had called matte before that than you would be penalized.In my day the referees would be tired of his method of attack and let you go at him. Sorry Bro
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u/East-Lab-8156 Jan 23 '25
Lack of sportsmanship doesn’t belong to judo. I think it’s the fault of your country or coach or club to teach you that staying calm is in judo spirit and values. You’re young and with this attitude you’re going nowhere both of you. You people should stop acting like victims all the time, almost like if it’s in your genes or something.
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u/Austiiiiii Jan 23 '25
Racism is also poor sportsmanship. Please don't pretend to be wise while spouting logical fallacy. Every individual is unique. Relying on your negative experiences with one person to pass judgement on another simply because they look similar is the greatest form of intellectual laziness.
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u/dekuthememer Jan 23 '25
Had no intention of harming but only trying to get a score out of that(: belive me I coulde have slammed him WAY harder if I was really mad... and why bring politics into a judo post?
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u/porl judocentralcoast.com.au Jan 24 '25
You can't score off that anyway, so it was a bad judgement call. Live and learn.
Edit: I should clarify I am in no way agreeing with the shit from the parent poster. Just responding to your claim of trying to get a score.
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u/Amebixweetabix Jan 23 '25
Guy in blue thinks he's at a BJJ comp.