r/judo • u/lhwang0320 • Jan 29 '25
Judo x MMA Ronda Rousey — one of the best judokas to cross over into MMA
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Jan 29 '25
Still my favorite fight from her. Too bad her trainer tried to turn her into a striker.
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u/derioderio shodan Jan 29 '25
I remember she won another fight in like 7sec with an arm bar as well.
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u/damnmaster Jan 30 '25
I think she won the first 10 fights in under 20mins total or something like that. She was a powerhouse until she faced a good striker
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u/MOTUkraken Jan 29 '25
The absolute number one worst gameplan in the history of mankind: You are an Olympic Silver Medalist in Judo, your opponent is a 19 times World Champion in Boxing and Kickboxing. How on earth can the gameplan be to strike her?
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u/JJWentMMA Jan 29 '25
This is revisionist imo. At the start Ronda did try to punch holly, but after missing a few times and getting hit (like 30 seconds in) her goal became to clinch and get the throw. Ronda clinched twice.
First time, holly fought out of it. Second time, Ronda got out judo’d and got taken down.
Every other time she couldn’t get a clinch
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u/MOTUkraken Jan 30 '25
I respectfully disagree. Iirc she changed coach. The new coach was the same snakeoil salesmen that made cte training with Diego Sanchez.
He somehow made her believe that she is already such a grappler that basically all she needs was more striking to be unbeatable.
Following months we saw more and more footage of Rhonda training absolutely horrible striking - I have basically flashbacks of her abysmal shadowboxing where she knocks her own shoulder on her chin and throws the head sideways so much she flinches. It was the worst striking I had ever seen in a competitor.
She changed her entire style top to bottom with that coach.
I sincerely believe he convinced her she could „surprise“ Holly and throw off Hollies gameplan by striking with her.
Fighters are incredibly susceptible to snakeloil salesman because we all seek the „magic trick“ that gives us an advantage.
I really think, she wanted to strike Holly. And she kinda fell back to factory settings once the stress was too high - but it was too late.
Idk if she could have won had she stuck to her strengths. But she didn’t.
Her clinch game as is was likely much better than Hollies. Thinking she hadn’t seen and beaten people much stronger than Holly on her way to Olympic silver in Judo underestimates the level of competition in Judo.
But her trainer really destroyed her and her entire career.
What do you think of thaz viewpoint?
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u/JJWentMMA Jan 30 '25
Rousey trained with Edmund since 2010. She was even on the joe Rogan experience with him back when they were in strike force. He was her first and only mma and striking coach.
In her corner at the same time was also the Gracie brothers who she trained full time with, and Chivichyan who was a mma judo coach who also coached Parisian.
If you give him credit for for 2 losses a ruining her career, you also have to give him credit for 12 wins and creating her career.
So therefore I don’t buy the perspective for two reasons;
One; she never changed coaches
Two; her fighting style never actually changed. If you watch the correia fight, the Tate fight, the carmouche fight, or the zingano fight, how does she start her entries to her clinch?
Brawling like a bulldog to get into it. I don’t see that she did anything different in the nunes fight.
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u/MOTUkraken Jan 30 '25
Wow. That’s a hard perspective change. Thank you for pointing out that I have been completely wrong about the coach change.
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u/JJWentMMA Jan 30 '25
People get it mixed up; I think I know why?
She brought her fiancé into the camp who proceeded to dive bomb his career and a few other pros followed rousey and got their records stomped.
I think people mix up that happening with holly beating her.
Now if the argument is she would’ve been a much better fighter if she had a better coach (think Greg Jackson or Matt Hume type) she would’ve beaten holly… I think that’s possible.
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u/mjsfg Jan 30 '25
I thought she spent time with Henry Aikens at some point
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u/JJWentMMA Jan 30 '25
I think he was just her jiu jitsu coach before she trained with Ryron and Rener
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u/mbergman42 yonkyu Jan 30 '25
That’s exactly what I recall. Wasn’t the new coach Edmond Tarverdyan?
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u/JJWentMMA Jan 30 '25 edited Jan 30 '25
She trained with Edmund since 2010.
He was the only coach she ever had.
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u/mbergman42 yonkyu Jan 30 '25
That seems like a simplification. I believe he was not her only coach at all. He was her kickboxing and mma coach during one period. But you’re right, she was with him earlier than I thought, and he was the one called the worst coach in mma for a while.
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u/JJWentMMA Jan 30 '25
Only head coach she ever had* I should say.
You’re correct he was viewed as a horrible coach, with Ronda as his only good pupil.
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u/RobotnikOne Jan 30 '25
So you’re saying that her game plan was striking and when the game plan that she trained on wasn’t working she tried to revert to judo? So what you’re saying is that training for striking with her trainer was a bad idea against a top tier striker?
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u/JJWentMMA Jan 30 '25
I’m saying holly was better in the clinch in mma than Ronda ever was.
The gameplan was never to strike with holly either. She just didn’t wanna charge in.
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u/powerhearse Jan 30 '25
All MMA gameplans at that level MUST incorporate striking. You cannot force a clinch against a good MMA fighter without a striking threat, let alone against an elite MMA fighter like Holly
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u/powerhearse Jan 30 '25
Unfortunately in MMA you need a striking threat in order to establish grappling.
What happened to Ronda wasn't a result of her trying to be a kickboxer. It was a result of her being unable to establish a clinch due to her complete lack of striking.
With how one dimensional her game was, it was always going to happen
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u/MOTUkraken Jan 30 '25
Slightly disagree. If the Grappling threat is high enough, it makes everything else work.
Many high level Grapplers only even have a striking threat BECAUSE their Grappling threat is so great.
Having a superb Wrestler as an opponent forces the striker to behave very extreme and one sided.
You only need a balanced approach if the striker had super takedown defense.
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u/powerhearse Jan 30 '25
This isn't quite correct. In actual fact both are true. You need a high enough striking threat to distract from grappling defence, even if your grappling is absolutely top tier.
A fighter at this level giving 100% attention to takedown defence without needing to worry about striking will be absolutely fine in any circumstance.
Unfortunately Ronda's striking was not enough to distract the higher level opponents in order to execute her high level grappling.
Also, the high level grapplers you're talking about are almost all using extremely fast and strong shots, not establishing a clinch for upper body takedowns. A solid shot is the biggest threat to a striker from range and using fake shots sets up striking very effectively.
You only need a balanced approach if the striker had super takedown defense.
This isn't true. At the highest level (UFC) in order to be successful you 100% need a balanced approach no matter your grappling or striking talent. The days of being highly specialised are over and have been for at least a decade
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u/MOTUkraken Jan 30 '25
Almost agree. Two points are important:
Rousey Holm was in fact almost a decade ago. And in the females division which, as we know, never had or has the same quality.
the fact that today basically all high level MMA Fighters have a balanced approach makes it more difficult to observe how a high Grappling threat works against someone with wrestling defense that isn’t on par. But it doesn’t change the fact that Grapplers only need passable striking if the opponent has passable Grappling defense.
We first saw pure grapplers completely dominating pure strikers Then strikers learned takedown defense and started neutralizing grapplers with „sprawl and brawl“ forcing a standing fight. UFC rules extremely push this behavior with rule changes, rounds, standups etc. Now Grapplers need better Striking - to handle the improved takedown defense of their opponents AND handle the rules that make a takedown less rewarding and thus skew the risk/reward towards favoring Striking.
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u/powerhearse Jan 30 '25
Rousey Holm was in fact almost a decade ago.
Thats correct, and it was a classic demonstration of why, even in the womens division, you could not be a one dimensional fighter.
Matt Hughes demonstrated it a decade earlier against Royce Gracie, even in an era where specialists could occasionally still succeed.
But it doesn’t change the fact that Grapplers only need passable striking if the opponent has passable Grappling defense.
Nobody in the UFC has "passable" grappling defence, even in Ronda's era. The women's division as you mentioned was much more uneven skill wise which is why Ronda was so successful despite having basically zero striking threat.
Your initial comment implied that the reason Ronda lost was because she tried to strike with a striker. That's not correct. The reason she lost was because while she was doing the correct gamplan (which she used her whole career) of using striking to enter the clinch, her striking was not enough of a threat against Holly to allow for her to establish her grappling game effectively without absorbing a shitload of damage, which is exactly what happened.
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u/powerhearse Jan 30 '25
Nobody tried to turn her into a striker. If anything she didn't spend anywhere near enough time learning to be a striking threat.
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u/themule71 Jan 31 '25
I don't think her problem was a technical one. She was making a lot of money with movies and other gigs at the time. The effort to be an elite athlete is incredible. It is hard to keep motivated when you can make the same amount of money with 1/1000 of the effort.
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u/ratufa_indica Jan 30 '25
Elite grappler convinced by either themself or their coach that they’re good at striking and their career falls of a cliff. Many such cases. Always sad to see.
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u/Milotiiic Ikkyu | M1 -u60kg | British Judo Jan 29 '25
As much as I hate him - Hector Lombard was a solid fighter with a super Judo base. I do like watching Kayla Harrison though.
Stephanie Egger is also a good watch in the UFC for judokas.
Honourable mentions to Don Frye and his 2nd Dan and Dan Severn with his 5th Dan 🔥
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u/SuspiciousCucumber20 Jan 30 '25
Rick Hawn always gets left out and he's one of the best to ever do it.
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Jan 30 '25
He didn't use it much though. But plenty of fighters are Judo black belts. You just don't see them using much of it. Mousasi, for example.
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u/instanding sandan Jan 30 '25
Shinya Aoki used it a ton. He says he’s more a judoka than BJJ guy, was one of the best judoka in Japan, got his black belt in 18 months and was known as the flying submission master before he even started BJJ.
He used heaps of Judo in his fights, especially kosoto gari.
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u/Exploreradzman Jan 29 '25
The Eagle. And there is Kayla Harrison.
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u/honestsideofme Jan 30 '25
I’m hyped up for Kayla’s next fight. It’s gonna be a title shot for sure. Just hope Julianna can’t duck harder than Jon Jones.
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u/Emperor_of_All Jan 29 '25
I would argue Fedor was a much better crossover, Ronda was great for what she was but she had a very weak division at her time.
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Jan 29 '25
She was text book Judo. Fedor was great too, but more in terms of Sambo.
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u/Emperor_of_All Jan 29 '25
Fedor was a Judo athlete like 90% of his life and didn't do Sambo until very late in his career. Halfcut when he was here talked about it, he pretty much put Combat Sambo on the map, it wasn't really even a thing in Russia until he made it a big in MMA.
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u/Milotiiic Ikkyu | M1 -u60kg | British Judo Jan 29 '25
What happened to Halfcut? I saw someone mentioned on the martial arts sub that he left the mods team?
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u/Emperor_of_All Jan 29 '25
A mod said the subreddit essentially made him and another mod just rage quit Reddit. It is sad he was a wealth of knowledge. I will miss him
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u/instanding sandan Jan 31 '25 edited Jan 31 '25
Not really true, his sambo and judo coach was teaching him both at the same time.
He was doing sambo and judo under Vasily Ivanovich Gavrilov at 11, then started training with Vladimir Voronov.
He was master of judo and sambo in 1997.
His earliest elite judo result is the same year as his earliest elite sambo result: 1998.
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u/MOTUkraken Jan 29 '25
What success did Fedor have in Judo? I only remember him as a Sambo Athlete
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u/Emperor_of_All Jan 30 '25
He was literally part of the Russian National Judo team, it wasn't until he didn't make the cut did he learn striking so that he could go into MMA.
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u/instanding sandan Jan 31 '25
That’s a massive lie since his top Judo result is 1998, same with sambo, already a master of sambo by 1998 and training sambo since age 11.
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u/Emperor_of_All Jan 31 '25
Which is the massive lie his striking or sambo training? Because there is an interview of
Fedor saying that he didn't train striking until after leaving the Russian National Team and he needed to do something to make money to support his new born daughter and his original grappling coach knew striking and started coaching him again. This came out of Fedor's mouth.
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u/instanding sandan Jan 31 '25 edited Jan 31 '25
Can you send that interview through?
Either way, whether he started learning striking in 98 or earlier, he was doing Sambo since age 11, so the claim that he only started doing Sambo after judo isn’t true, although it may be true of combat sambo specifically. However, the foundation of combat sambo is sambo.
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u/Emperor_of_All Jan 31 '25
I can't find it right now, but I will keep trying to look for it, I just remember unlike some of his interviews it wasn't though a Russian translator but had subtitles. But you could be right that he was trained in sambo at the same time as judo.
This is why I also miss Halfcut our resident sambo expert. He used to explain this about sambo, it was a real crap shoot, there was no real unified style, most champions were judo heavy and were typically judoka who failed to make the top of the sport but were high level. So think 7-15th place but couldn't crack the top 3 but needed name recognition to make money, so went into sambo.
I think the biggest example of this would be Khabib's camp, they don't learn sambo but they call it a sambo school and his dad trained the most champions. Khabib himself said he learned wrestling, and then judo and didn't learn sambo until he joined the military at 17. It is very clear in MMA that Khabib's camp is wrestling first but they still call him a sambo fighter.
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u/instanding sandan Jan 31 '25
Oh 100% many sambo athletes are judoka who missed the top mark.
That’s why you regularly see Judoka get medals at high level in sambo and even combat sambo (in one memorable instance with only 3 months of striking) but seldom the other way around.
For instance one woman could never get higher than silver in judo at world champs level, she retired from judo in her mid 30s and won back to back sambo world championships almost immediately.
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u/NemoNoones ikkyu Jan 31 '25
Do people not know who Karo Parisyan is? No offense to Ronda but Karo was THE Judoka of the UFC.
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u/joanna_jedrzejczyk_ Jun 08 '25
Ronda Beat her in Judo
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u/JudoMike9 Jan 30 '25
There are a lot of judokas who represented themselves well in MMA. Hayato “Mach” Sakurai was one of my favorites.
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u/TheNordicLion Jan 29 '25
She legitimately has the best Judo credentials to ever enter the UFC as an Olympic medalist. I also think she has the most takedowns by throw, but that may not be true anymore.
Personally I miss watching her rip everyone's arm off, best or not she hit throws from everywhere and I really enjoyed watching her do it.
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u/MOTUkraken Jan 29 '25
Enter Kayla Harrison. She got her beat as the most credentialed Judoka ever in the ufc
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u/TheNordicLion Jan 29 '25
She's new, I'll have to check her out. Her credentials are unbelievable, love that she did to Holly Holm what Ronda should have done instead of trying to out-box a professional boxer.
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u/powerhearse Jan 30 '25
This theory keeps popping up in this thread but it isn't true. Ronda didn't try to outbox anyone. In MMA a striking threat is necessary to utilise any clinch game. Ronda couldn't establish a clinch because her striking was too bad. There was no path to victory for her no matter her gameplan with the skillset she had.
Also, definitely check out Kayla. Her game is much better rounded than Ronda's was. Though, to be honest she is still a poor striker. In the women's division she will likely continue to get away with it, due to the relatively shallow talent pool
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Jan 30 '25
Yeah, she had a horrible fall from grace, but people forget to reflect on her meteoric rise with the same fondness as Conor. I remember “Death, Taxes, and Rousey by armbar” as being her meme. She was electric to watch, just demolishing everyone within the first period. However, she got a lot of what she had coming in that fall from the spotlight. But years later, she seems to live a pretty simple, happy, loving mom life, quite opposite of Conor, and doesn’t get much respect for being such an important and accomplished athlete.
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u/perfectcell93 Jan 30 '25
Sort of, but she also beat a bunch of bums.
Karo, Fedor, Khabib, Islam, all have infinitely better Judo than her.
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u/powerhearse Jan 30 '25
*infinitely better Judo for MMA
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u/perfectcell93 Jan 30 '25
Quite obviously what the post is about
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u/powerhearse Jan 30 '25
I mean this is the Judo subreddit, and it's certainly incorrect to say that those fighters have better Judo than Kayla. They don't. She is a higher level Judoka.
They are however much better MMA grapplers, which is an entirely different skillset
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u/StonedStengthBeast Jan 30 '25
A lot of people hate on Rhonda nowadays (casual mma fans). I remember a Rhonda whose judo was so effective no woman of any style or background could even get close to beating her. She went through some really talented woman fighters. Of course the sport evolved past her, but still, she deserves credit for what she was able to do.
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u/TheGreekScorpion Jan 30 '25 edited Jan 30 '25
A lot of people hate on Rhonda nowadays (casual mma fans).
Rhonda
Edit: The fighters she "went through" - apart from Tate and maybe Sara McMann were largely cans. It's not just casuals who hate on her - she was a shitty person and an average fighter who was competing in a division where a lot of her opponents were part time fighters.
She got clapped by the first two World class fighters she fought.
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u/StonedStengthBeast Jan 30 '25
Miesha Tate was no can. You are literally who I was talking about. You can’t appreciate the fact that she implemented her judo in a manner that was unbeatable for a time period. Thank you for proving my point.
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u/TheGreekScorpion Jan 30 '25
Miesha Tate was no can.
If you had basic reading comprehension, you'd be able to see that's exactly what I said about "Rhonda's" opponents.
apart from Tate
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u/StonedStengthBeast Jan 30 '25
There we go now you a slinging insults. I misread one statement on reddit so I lack basic reading comprehension. You are a loser and a contrarian with no real point. You use low brow debate tactics that low intelligence people utilize. Instead of name calling and fit throwing, why don’t you use your words and explain why and how Rhonda didn’t effectively utilize the art of judo to dominate her opponents?
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Jan 30 '25
Koshi guruma?
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jan 30 '25
Harai Goshi, though Ronda considers what she did more of a Harai Makikomi.
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u/Existing_Base_2175 Jan 31 '25
If her opponent would have followed up again this fight would have been different…you could see even in this fight rousey couldn’t take a punch
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u/Judokayo74 Mar 04 '25
I would disagree with that, Kayla Harrison by far...
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u/joanna_jedrzejczyk_ Jun 08 '25
Ronda Beat her
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u/Judokayo74 Jun 08 '25
As far as a judoka goes, Kayla is by far the best in mma as well as still an active recognized name in the judo community...
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u/LeftInside6904 May 19 '25
HE WAS FIGHTING WITH IDIOTS UNTIL HE WAS OVER
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u/joanna_jedrzejczyk_ Jun 08 '25
Atleast her tits bounce during fights unlike Nunes and Holm that got none
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Jan 29 '25
She fought cans her entire career and then got smoked the first time she fought an actual fighter.
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u/Tammer_Stern Jan 29 '25
This is a blinkered view mate. She fought the best available at the time and arguably was pivotal in the improvement in Wmma we’ve seen since then giving us JJ, Val, Nunes, and soon to be a great, Dakota Ditcheva.
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Jan 29 '25
She did not fight the best available. Stop the cap.
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u/Tammer_Stern Jan 29 '25
Who in the UFC or strike force did she avoid?
Give your head a wobble mate.
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Jan 30 '25
[deleted]
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Jan 30 '25 edited Feb 04 '25
The unfortunate truth for women's combat sports is that there is more talent in smaller weight classes.
Joanna Jędrzejczyk fought strawweight when she was objectively too tall to claim upper strawweight limit as healthy weight. Valentina Shevchenko did quite well in bantamweight, considering she was a little too short for the division - opening flyweight up let her abilities shine more. Alexa Grasso almost died trying to meet strawweight requirements, thus flyweight was a life-saver. Lauren Murphy, Jessica Andrade and Julia Stoliarenko fought in three separate weight classes.
Ronda was also bulimic for most of her fighting career, probably since her Judo days. Cutting weight and bloating up later was the cause as well as the consequence of that. Sad reality is that Ronda probably liked herself more at bantamweight.
Featherweight wasn't as full as bantamweight back then and Ronda is 170m tall, meaning her natural healthy weight is around 62-65kg, which is not far from bantamweight limit. Amanda Nunes is naturally a featherweight, standing 1.75m tall, but mostly fought at bantamweight. Miesha Tate is 1.68m tall. Cris Cyborg fights at lightweight today as we speak, and, similarly to Cyborg, Gina Carano struggled meeting weight requirements at featherweight. Ronda falls in-between bantamweight and featherweight while Cris and Gina were lightweight trying to fit into featherweight.
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Jan 29 '25
I never said she avoided anyone. Does your head need a wobble?
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u/Tammer_Stern Jan 29 '25
You’re simply trolling mate. Give it a rest.
If she didn’t fight the best available (according to you) then she must have avoided someone (logically speaking).
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Jan 29 '25
Uh, no. I'm not saying she avoided anyone. It's more like Uncle Dana avoided giving her real opponents.
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u/Tammer_Stern Jan 29 '25
Who were these opponents you speak of?
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Jan 29 '25 edited Jan 29 '25
Jomama Jones, Daronda Garbijpersin, Sora Luser, Heidi Beehindpilo, Mary D'Mesticabusor
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u/lueckestman Jan 29 '25
Yeah I think she's exactly like Royce going in the first handful UFC events and smoking people. It just took time for MMA to evolve. Same with women's fighting.
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u/CombatCunt Jan 29 '25
Another fighter that I feel doesn't get talked about enough anymore for their Judo in MMA is Karo Parisyan. He had a number highlight reel throws during his career but didn't reach the heights of Rousey.