r/judo • u/Electronic_d0cter • Feb 03 '25
Judo x MMA How applicable is judo without a gi/ for MMA
Basically the title, finding decent wrestling as an adult Is basically impossible, I do train with an Olympic wrestler twice a week but for how bad my standup grappling is in comparison to my ground grappling it doesn't feel like enough. How applicable is judo to MMA, what are the main throws I should focus on other than something like a whizzer kick/uchi mata
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u/powerhearse Feb 03 '25
If you are training to compete in MMA, then there is no substitute for training at a solid competitive MMA club.
Training in grappling specific rulesets is inferior in every way.
Judo is amazing, but if MMA is your goal then just train MMA
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u/Electronic_d0cter Feb 03 '25
100% agree but I do also think it's beneficial to dedicate extra time where you lack and standing grappling is that for me ATM. especially because I'm a purple belt in bjj so the benefit would be huge at this point in my MMA journey
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u/powerhearse Feb 03 '25
That depends on your goals. A lot of what you will learn at Judo and wrestling will not be relevant to use in MMA
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u/Morjixxo bjj Feb 03 '25
That's not completely true, depending on which is your offensive strength point you want to double down on it. MMA will give always a more equalized training.
Let's say you want to rely on your speed and explosivity, you could want to emphasise your striking or Throwing. If you just train MMA you are spreading your time equally on a lot of different martial arts, and it's not necessarily the best way to use your time. (Opportunity - Cost)
Unless you are privately instructed in MMA, in that case the training is tailored around your goals and it's the best case.
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u/powerhearse Feb 03 '25
No offence, but you are wrong on this.
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u/Morjixxo bjj Feb 03 '25
No offence, but I would like to know why..
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u/powerhearse Feb 03 '25 edited Feb 03 '25
Yeah no problem! For reference i come from an MMA background and began branching out into arts like Judo and wrestling from a grappling based MMA style when i decided to stop competing, but during much of my MMA training there were not strong MMA schools around. I have spent most of my life learning these lessons the hard way so i have a good insight into this exact topic
That's not completely true, depending on which is your offensive strength point you want to double down on it. MMA will give always a more equalized training.
It can indeed be useful to double down on an offensive strength. However, you want to do so in an efficient manner. The days of going to a BJJ or wrestling school to fill in gaps are over. Fighters have been doing that for a long time now and those skills have cross pollinated into all of the high level MMA schools.
Let's say you want to rely on your speed and explosivity, you could want to emphasise your striking or Throwing. If you just train MMA you are spreading your time equally on a lot of different martial arts, and it's not necessarily the best way to use your time. (Opportunity - Cost)
It's actually the exact opposite. Going to a specialised martial art like Judo, BJJ or wrestling you will spend a lot of your time learning skills which either do not translate well to MMA at all, or do not translate without significant bridging skills and integration.
Those bridging skills and integration are the most important part of MMA and in order to go to a specialised martial art and have those skills you actually need to have already quite a high level understanding of MMA
For example you can go to wrestling and learn an excellent double leg. But you will be missing the vital skillsets to integrate that into MMA, such as the distance management, using striking to set up the correct timing, shooting from an MMA stance and the chain wrestling/chain striking which follows from a failed shot
And in many cases you will spend a lot of time learning skills that simply don't integrate to MMA at all. For example in Judo you will learn gi gripping strategies and methods of kuzushi which simply do not apply whatsoever to MMA training. You also learn habits in specialised martial arts which are vital for their respective competition rulesets, but terrible habits for MMA.
All of those things are avoided by training at a strong MMA gym instead. Its more time efficient and you spend 100% of your time learning directly applicable skills rather than superfluous ones.
As for working on your strong suit, that varies between MMA gyms. Some will be renowned for striking and some for grappling, and some for both. Working on your strengths is a matter of firstly figuring out what those are, and then finding a gym and training partners which are suitable to help develop that.
Your mistake here is viewing MMA as a collection of martial arts. That isn't the case, and it hasn't been for at least 25 years. MMA is its own martial art with its own meta game and its own training methodologies
MMA isn't "working on a lot of different martial arts" and it isn't a jack of all trades approach where you learn half assed varieties of striking and grappling. Its a completely seperate martial art with its own intricacies and effective strategies in each range of fighting.
Overall until you're quite advanced and have a good broad knowledge and skillset in MMA, you will always be better off training MMA than a specialised art if your goal is to be a better MMA fighter
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u/Morjixxo bjj Feb 03 '25
I agree in everything you said. MMA is more than the sum of martial arts and in MMA context some all things changes, so it's better to learn them directly there. I agree.
The only point I make is that offensively is really important to be very good at at least 1 thing, and I don't think MMA gyms usually go so deep in BJJ or Boxing for example.
I am talking about sharpening the your weapon.Defensively, is quite the opposite, is important to cover all weaknesses, and you can't learn that with separate martial arts, but only with MMA, which has them integrated in an one meta.
My goal is not competing but self defense and I think MMA is the nearest thing to it*. I just don't do it for 2 reasons: Concussions and community (The percentage of crazy guy doing MMA is way higher compared to BJJ)
*even if in a real life scenario you are not competing with same-sized opponents (so Grappling is undervalued in MMA for this reason), nor in 1 1vs1 scenario (so Grappling is overrated in MMA for this reason). Do you agree?
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u/powerhearse Feb 04 '25
I don't think MMA gyms usually go so deep in BJJ or Boxing for example.
I dont believe this is true in the modern era, strong MMA gyms will show better BJJ & boxing for MMA purposes than a BJJ or boxing gym will
I also dont think you do need to be very strong in one thing. It didn't serve me well even at a low level of competition to be specialised
My goal is not competing but self defense and I think MMA is the nearest thing to it*. I just don't do it for 2 reasons: Concussions and community (The percentage of crazy guy doing MMA is way higher compared to BJJ)
This has always been the case for me too, I stopped competing due to the concussion risk
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u/d_rome Feb 03 '25
This is the only answer and I'm stunned that 30+ years after UFC 1 these kinds of questions are asked. MMA is the sport.
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u/etienbjj Feb 03 '25
Let's ask Ronda Rousey, Kayla Harrison, Islam Makhachek, Karo Parysian, Piotr Yan.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Feb 03 '25
I do not know why Yan ever gets mentioned here. He's more of a dabbler, like Cub Swanson or Nate Diaz.
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u/The_JiujitsuGardener Feb 03 '25
Watch Ronda Rousey
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u/venomenon824 Feb 03 '25
It’s a bad example. She fought pretty unskilled competition. kato parisyan Or sexyyama pulled off judo techniques against elite completion. Judo players that can make it work in mma are rare though. It’s also a highly difficult skill that takes embers of mat time to make work well. For mma competition, adding extra time pure training wrestling would pay off better.
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u/Shinoobie ikkyu | BJJ purple Feb 03 '25
Check out JFloJudo on YouTube for an expert integration of Judo, wrestling, and BJJ. Lots of no gi Judo on there.
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u/Heymax123 Feb 03 '25
I think it's greatest strength is the balance and ability to sweep & scramble. Judo guys in MMA have been notoriously difficult to takedown even compared to high level wrestlers, offensively it's nowhere near as good as freestyle wrestling.
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u/New_Cardiologist5746 Feb 03 '25
The most popular Judo Throw in MMA and wrestling is Harai Goshi. You do not need a Judo GI. Ronda was the best with it and other Judo MMA use it. O Uchi Gari is the second most popular.
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u/ItzLuzzyBaby Feb 03 '25
A lot of the Russian grapplers are great at utilizing judo trips and throws as a secondary method of securing take downs alongside shooting for doubles and singles.
Jon Jones hit a massive harai goshi on Stipe in their fight which really shifted the momentum
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u/INFJdating Feb 03 '25
I’m currently training both and I’d say very applicable, but obviously not without any flaws. Judo is great at counter wrestling. If you have an opponent, who likes to shoot takedowns on you, you can get them in the clinch and use whatever judo throw you like.
In mma sparring I’ve used Tai otoshi, Kouchi gari and Goshi guruma, while in clinch. Also my ground game is fairly ok, ofc not all too great against guys, who have trained there for many years and who compete on regular basis.
When I went to sole wrestling class, that’s where I was able to stuff many good judo throws, but when striking is involved, many just like to keep the distance and it’s very tough to get into a clinch with them. In that case I’ve just used Morote gari, but I still have to learn a proper single leg, there’s not much of a way around it.
About striking, yeah I have to learn that, but I’m luckily picking up on that quite quick.
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u/kwan_e yonkyu Feb 03 '25
The throws/variations you should focus on are the ones that lead into groundwork/chokes, with you on top, since throws will not likely end your opponent, either in terms of damage (because, hopefully, your MMA ring is not on concrete), or the ruleset.
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u/Dense_fordayz Feb 03 '25
Very applicable
Look up Justin Flores on Instagram. He does a lot of no gi stuff
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u/uxinung Feb 03 '25
Not a professional mma fighter by any means but very helpful especially if you're also good at ne waza
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u/GEOpdx Feb 03 '25
Kayla Harrison wrecked an opponent with a left side osoto gari then pounded her with striking. Kabib is a judo black belt (in addition to other regional martial arts).
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u/Popular-Debate-1405 shodan Feb 03 '25
In my opinion, if you're already very proficient at judo, you'll easy add it to your MMA. If you've already started MMA without a judo base, you'll struggle to add much of it to your game. Doubles and singles are easier to execute and learn than harai and sasae. My judo works really well in MMA, but I've been doing it for 12 years, so it should feel natural to me. Just my opinion, but you're unlikely to be able to pick up much unless you're training loads of judo for a prolonged period of time.
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u/Short-State-2017 Feb 03 '25
Not bad. Trips work decently in the clinch, and an uchimata/harai works good against the cage. Kouchi/ouchi are nice additions to spice up a double leg style entry.
However you need to train MMA to improve at MMA. Theres other things to consider not included in wrestling/judo. Strikes are involved. Even against a cage, you got for a harai you need to be aware that someone will be punching you in the face the whole time if you’re not careful and rapid.
Please check the takedown statistics for the UFC. Major throws aren’t there. 1. Double leg, 2. single leg, 3. Outside trip, and there’s a reason these are the top dogs.
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u/Haunting-Beginning-2 Feb 04 '25
All sweeps, trips and reaps work great, (ashiwaza) bum rush other person and apply or grapple and apply from cage pressure situations. Be sure to be top dominant. Hip throws definitely applicable. Leg grab takedowns awesome. Sutemi waza case by case without gi to grab, from arm drag use the cross grip sumi gaeshi. (Tomoenage they slip the arm, or wrist grip. Taiotoshi same problem. ) Tawara gaeshi is awesome but needs a drill to follow like guillotine or?? The storm and punch after a throw drill that Fedor used has gotta be the best combo ever, (especially Ouchi Gari) the sheer number of wins he achieves off that is proof it works.
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u/zealous_sophophile Feb 03 '25
Original Judo had extremely short sleeves and trousers to access standing kansetsu waza and what is now Kinshi waza. As the prime form of Kuzushi aside from atemi. Jujutsu/Koryu also had ideas of triangulating the body to instantly kill people such as Hachimonji no Kamae. Not easy to find but if you wanted the best preserved ideas of atemi in WWII Japan and before you'd look at Uechi Ryu. The standing submissions are supposed to be from arts like Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, Yoshin Ryu and Oshikiuchi. So if you really want to see no gi Japanese arts outside of Sumo you need to look at Koryu. However for MMA most of what they taught were levels of disable, maim and kill.
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Feb 03 '25
It can be very applicable, but you need a wrestling base as well to effectively deal with hand fighting and leg based takedowns without a gi on, because that’s a very different game.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Feb 03 '25
Wrestling base doesn't sound right at all. But wrestling training is necessary yes.
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Feb 03 '25
We’re using ‘base’ in different ways. When I say base, I mean enough training to establish general competence.
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u/Kopetse Feb 03 '25
It’s good inside its rules, but for MMA with no jackets you’ll use like 15% of your arsenal. Also there is no leg takedown/takedown defence because of current rules.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Feb 03 '25
15% is way too little, and Judoka do not come into matches armed with every single judo technique ever. A handful is enough.
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u/Kopetse Feb 03 '25
But you’ll have to learn lots of them along the way and would be tied by no legs, no touching face rules. It’s best to learn freestyle wrestling and NoGi BJJ from start if MMA is your goal. Judo is good if you like playing judo or want to learn to fight in clothes
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Feb 03 '25
That’s no more than having to adjust stance from Muay Thai, or learning not to give out your neck like wrestling.
What are the moves of Judo that you can’t use I. No-gi? I don’t think you even know how judo classes get run, we’re not going through the entire catalog.
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u/Kopetse Feb 03 '25
I’m it saying it’s not applicable, I’m saying it’s a waste of time doing Gi training for NoGi only competition with striking involved. It’s like doing boxing for Muay Thai. It looks similar, but footwork is different, stance needs adjustment, headwork doesn’t work as good, etc. It can be done complimentary, but not as main training.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Feb 03 '25
You could have said that instead of claiming only 15% of our arsenal is at all applicable.
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u/Kopetse Feb 03 '25
But it is, I haven’t seen more than O-soto, O-goshi, Harai-goshi and different sorts of ashi-waza in MMA matches.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Feb 03 '25
Those are also like the main throws we use in general. Are you expecting us to have some more weird shit?
I’m not sure what you think we consider signature moves, but those are basically among them. We don’t even try to go for the full 40 moves of the gokyo- in fact there are players who straight up don’t know them all.
Yes, you can go down a gi heavy path of Sode or Morote Seoi Nage, but it’s just as easy to play strict two hander judo that can easily translate to no-gi. Islam’s judo style is not unlike a conventional Japanese judoka.
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u/AlmostFamous502 BJJ Black, Judo Green Feb 03 '25
Which Olympic wrestler?
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u/Electronic_d0cter Feb 03 '25
I don't want to name drop but he was on the Canadian Olympic team in the 90's
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Feb 03 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Electronic_d0cter Feb 03 '25
How am I lying because I don't want to name drop someone on a public forum. This guy isn't super famous, he lives a very normal life apart from coaching wrestling a few times a week
What does knowing his name add to my post that is asking for advice in relation to judos application to MMA
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u/InordinateChaos Feb 07 '25
Watch some of Karo Parisyan and Islam Makhachev's trips and throws. Judo is great in MMA, especially if you fight someone who likes to clinch
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u/crashcap Feb 03 '25
Its nice to have in the bag, but outclassed if not adapted. Today Islam Makachev heavily utilizes a background of Judo alongside other martial arts to be the most dominant man in MMA.
The most effective pure judoka was Ronda, of course.
Id be silly not to talk about the arguable GOAT, Fedor Emilianenko