Judo black belt Islam Makhachev with beautiful technique and execution

[u/Wise-Self-4845]

can you guys name all of these techniques? I got all except one hahah

[u/omnomdumplings]

My theory is that a lot of good judoka don't go to MMA until their bodies are spent, so the only younger judoka who transition aren't as elite. VS folkstyle, where you age out in your early 20s anyway and might not do well in olympic styles.

[u/powerhearse → u/omnomdumplings]

It's also a more difficult transition from Judo, and many Judoka who have dabbled will be aware of this

[u/Mobile-Estate-9836 → u/powerhearse]

No it's not, and stop this myth. Coming from Judo, you actually have more overall core skills for MMA than you would in wrestling because there is at least submission training and defense, as well as guard play. Like someone above said, the main issue is that high level athletes from Judo don't cross over until much later, or if at all because they have more financial opportunities in Judo. It's an issue of recruitment from Judo, how the IJF views MMA, and the lack of high level judoka in the U.S. (where the UFC is based) more than anything. Not the skill set of Judo itself. Same reason why you don't see a ton of Sambo fighters in the UFC either compared to wrestling, bjj, or boxing.

No single martial art has as many core skillsets that align with MMA than Judo. The other would be Sambo, but most high level Samboist are already Judoka. The talent pool is also much shallower than Judo.

[u/powerhearse → u/Mobile-Estate-9836]

Lmao and here he is, the cope specialist himself. Was wondering when you'd raise your head again

No single martial art has as many core skillsets that align with MMA than Judo.

They certainly do. Muay Thai would have by far the most direct transferability to MMA, much more than Judo.

No martial art which is predominately gi based easily transfers to MMA. The entire gripping and off balancing system in Judo does not transfer at all, and the throws have limited transferability because they involve entering from a totally different range.

The only thing that transfers well is the weight distribution/base, the mechanics of the throws themselves, pinning (assuming the Judoka has gokd competence which most do not) and athleticism.

The submission game in Judo is more or less non existent and you know this perfectly well. Additionally, what submission game does exist is almost completely gi specific as the armbar entries & chokes that commonly win Judo competition are highly gi reliant

Wrestling transfers much better because the gripping is directly relevant, the pinning game is more prevalent and competent (and no gi, which is very different) and the entries for the highest percentage MMA takedowns (doubles and singles) are directly transferable.

Even no gi BJJ is more transferable because the core skillset more or less directly transfers (submission, control and using no gi grips) whereas a large portion of Judo's core skillset does not.

Coming from no gi BJJ you need to learn striking on the feet, entries and integration into wrestling, an MMA specific takedown game and some relatively small adjustments on the ground to utilise and defend grounded strikes

Coming from Judo you need to learn striking, entries and integration into wrestling, a large amount of bridging knowledge to apply the relevant points of Judo including a huge amount of gripping and adjustment to clinch strikes, then a large amount of ground bridging knowledge including using no gi grips, no gi submission entries and defence against grounded strikes.

There are simply more parts of Judo that are Judo meta specific.

Comments like this:

the main issue is that high level athletes from Judo don't cross over until much later, or if at all because they have more financial opportunities in Judo. It's an issue of recruitment from Judo, how the IJF views MMA, and the lack of high level judoka in the U.S. (where the UFC is based) more than anything. Not the skill set of Judo itself.

Are absolute cope and delusion, pure and simple.

The fact of the matter is that no matter your background, MMA is a huge adjustment. But wrestling and Muay Thai are by far the easiest adjustments because they both share the most directly transferable skillsets.

Realistically it's a meaningless argument because in any case the skillset gap is so enormous, but Judo is among the largest skillset gaps.

Yours sincerely, a judoka, BJJ black belt and former professional MMA fighter

[u/Mobile-Estate-9836 → u/powerhearse]

You always chime in specifically on MMA discussions on this sub reddit but never anything else which makes almost everything you claim sus. There's a reason why most people don't respond to your posts (and I rarely do).

And I'm not coping with anything, I've done all that too (bjj, Judo, wrestling, mma) and trained with high level people. The difference is, I can actually explain and look critically at each art. You do nothing but come on here and troll Judo, which is a weird thing to do on a subreddit where you claim to be a judoka.

The fact that you say Muay Thai has the most direct applicability to MMA invalidates almost everything else you said straight out the gate. Muay Thai uses large gloves, not MMA gloves (the equivalent to gi vs. no gi). So by your own logic, that's just as big an issue as training in the gi. Some orgs like PFL and amateur ones don't allow elbows. Muay Thai also doesn't train transitions to the ground like wrestling, bjj, or Judo do. By themselves, striking arts are probably the worst bases for MMA. The majority of champions and challengers right now in MMA all came from grappling backgrounds, not striking backgrounds.

The submission game in Judo is more or less non existent and you know this perfectly well.

Yea, I guess Flavio Canto, Jimmy Pedro, Ronda Rousey, Travis Stevens, and Wakana Koga were just scrubs on the ground...and thats just to name a few. You sound like someone who watched some judo highlights and think it's only throws when it's obviously not. Any of the high level players all know submissions and submission defense. Whether they do it or not based on their game is a different story.

The entire gripping and off balancing system in Judo does not transfer at all, and the throws have limited transferability because they involve entering from a totally different range.

Yes it does, just like the mechanics of throwing a punch doesn't change based on what gloves you're wearing. Or a kick whether or not you're wearing shin pads or none. The fundamentals and core shapes are all that matters. Loading someone on your hips, balance, footsweeping, reaping, pinning, etc. are all the same regardless of what youre wearing. Guys like Islam, Khabib, Fedor, and Ankalaev are hitting the same throws and strikes they did in sport Sambo and Combat Sambo despite wearing a gi top and belt in those sports, and no gi in MMA.

Some of the best MMA fighters of all time came from gi backgrounds in BJJ or split their time between gi and no gi, even while doing MMA. What matters the most is getting down the fundamental movements.

The only thing that transfers well is the weight distribution/base, the mechanics of the throws themselves, pinning (assuming the Judoka has gokd competence which most do not) and athleticism

Which is 90% of Judo and Sambo, and the majority of core grappling in MMA lol.

[u/powerhearse → u/Mobile-Estate-9836]

You always chime in specifically on MMA discussions on this sub reddit but never anything else

This isn't true, I chime in on lots of other stuff. I comment on a lot of MMA topics because I have much more experience in that area and I feel what I offer is more valuable, as I've only done a few years of Judo compared to almost 2 decades of MMA

And I'm not coping with anything, I've done all that too (bjj, Judo, wrestling, mma) and trained with high level people.

Based on your viewpoints I find it highly doubtful that you have had much exposure to MMA

The fact that you say Muay Thai has the most direct applicability to MMA invalidates almost everything else you said straight out the gate. Muay Thai uses large gloves, not MMA gloves (the equivalent to gi vs. no gi).

Firstly, this is not as large a disparity as you claim. It is absolutely not the equivalent of gi vs no gi. In MMA training you spend a lot of your time, including the vast majority of your pad work, using large gloves.

It is totally different to gi vs no gi. The entire gripping system and distance between gi and no gi is different and non-transferable for the most part. The core techniques of establishing grips is totally different. The core techniques between small and large gloves are exactly the same

Not to say that it doesn't make a difference; there are differences in defence and strategy between small and large gloves. But for the most part they are minimal and it depends heavily on the style of Muay Thai you trained. If you were a cover heavy traditional Thai style kickboxer then the adjustment to MMA gloves is a little harder.

However you also rarely spar with 4oz fight gloves in MMA, because it's a huge injury and concussion risk. The MMA sparring gloves I and many other coaches recommend are significantly larger than 4oz gloves anyway, almost on par with 8oz boxing gloves in some cases depending on your weight class!

Some orgs like PFL and amateur ones don't allow elbows. Muay Thai also doesn't train transitions to the ground like wrestling, bjj, or Judo do.

While these two things are true, many modern amateur leagues do allow elbows and almost all professional ones do.

As for transition to the ground, that process is different in MMA in any case. Many takedowns (I'd argue the majority of the effective ones) take place against the cage where your transition considerations are different

By themselves, striking arts are probably the worst bases for MMA. The majority of champions and challengers right now in MMA all came from grappling backgrounds, not striking backgrounds.

I agree that for the most part at the elite level, elite wrestlers (specifically elite wrestlers) are the best bases for elite MMA. However, that isn't the topic of discussion. The topic is how much of the art transfers directly to MMA as a whole.

Elite MMA ratios and statistics are different to the majority of MMA for a reason; it is easier to be dominant as an elite level wrestler than an elite level striker for many reasons which i can go into detail more if you like (this is a big enough comment already). However, more of Muay Thai technique is directly transferable to MMA than wrestling

Yea, I guess Flavio Canto, Jimmy Pedro, Ronda Rousey, Travis Stevens, and Wakana Koga were just scrubs on the ground...and thats just to name a few.

These examples are all excellent ground grapplers. However, they are a tiny minority even at the elite level. You know this perfectly well.

Yes it does, just like the mechanics of throwing a punch doesn't change based on what gloves you're wearing. Or a kick whether or not you're wearing shin pads or none. The fundamentals and core shapes are all that matters.

The mechanics, strategy and system of gi gripping are entirely different from the mechanics, strategy and system of no gi gripping. When you introduce an MMA ruleset that changes vastly once again; however, at least the mechanics of the no gi grips are the same

Your claim to be a wrestler is highly suspicious if you think that the techniques of gi gripping are remotely similar to no gi.

A punch and kick doesn't change technically much depending on gloves or shinpads. But establishing a lapel or sleeve grip in the gi is VASTLY different to establishing a necktie or a wrist grip, let alone underhooks/overhooks which change vastly in the entry method when gi grips are available to counter them

Countering grips and establishing your own interview the gi vs no gi are simply not comparable, they are vastly different systems and positional hierarchies

Loading someone on your hips, balance, footsweeping, reaping, pinning, etc. are all the same regardless of what youre wearing.

None of these things are gripping. They are offbalancing, entry and mechanics. Footsweeps are fundamentally different no gi in the setup and gripping phase. Pinning is also different as many of the strongest pins (kami shiho gatame for example) are gi specific. Hell even Kesa Gatame takes some adjustment to use no gi (it's my absolute favourite pin and I use it gi and no gi with some adjustments)

Guys like Islam, Khabib, Fedor, and Ankalaev are hitting the same throws and strikes they did in sport Sambo and Combat Sambo despite wearing a gi top and belt in those sports, and no gi in MMA.

Islam and Khabib have been training no gi for MMA their entire lives alongside that gi training. And the overwhelming majority of their training since transitioning to full time MMA (which for both was before adulthood) has been no gi. It's difficult to even find any footage of them in the gi at all. I always point out that they're bad examples of Judoka transitioning to MMA because they never really transitioned; they've been doing it all along

Fedor is one of the few exceptions who actually transitioned from high level gi Judo specifically. Akiyama and Hidehiko Yoshida are two others. I love seeing such guys succeed in MMA and I hope more judoka make the transition. But it isn't easy

Some of the best MMA fighters of all time came from gi backgrounds in BJJ or split their time between gi and no gi, even while doing MMA. What matters the most is getting down the fundamental movements.

Which ones? The only one I can think of who meets this description is Demian Maia, and he absolutely didn't train in the gi for MMA competition. He was also a no gi champion in ADCC. I can't think of a single UFC champion who was an elite BJJ competitor that didn't medal in a high level no gi competition.

Which is 90% of Judo and Sambo, and the majority of core grappling in MMA lol.

Completely disagree. The actual finishing mechanics of a throw are the minority of Judo compared to kuzushi and entry parts of the throw. And even the finishing mechanics are significantly different in some cases no gi.

Out of interest how much no gi training have you done compared to gi? And how much MMA training? Your viewpoints indicate strongly to me that you've spent 90% of your time in the gi in both BJJ and Judo

[u/Mobile-Estate-9836 → u/powerhearse]

I ain't wasting time responding to all that lol. And no, my almost 2 decades of training I've actually trained the majority of my time in no gi contrary to whatever notions you may think. Fact is, the fundamental mechanics and shapes are all that matter because tweaks such as gloves, gis, clothing, and rulesets are easy to make. I'm not the biggest fan of the gi. But what matters the most is mat time, gi or no gi. Gordon Ryan can throw on a gi right now and still win 95% of tournaments out there. What matters are his sound fundamentals, mechanics, and mat time.

I do agree that the transition from strictly gi to no gi mma is harder. But when the person doing it is a high level athlete who has faced some of the toughest competition on the planet in two of the hardest sports (wrestling/judo) with thousands of hours of mat time, figuring out a slightly different no gi grip is not that big of a deal. Figuring out how to setup and hit a foot sweep, trip, harai, or other takedown though, which may take thousands of reps to get down, is. It's why you can't suddenly teach a pure boxer/MT fighter to be good on the ground, but you can teach them very basic takedown defense.

The reason judoka aren't as present in MMA as they could be is due to the culture in Judo (mainly IJF), and the lack of Judo in America. if Judo suddenly became popular like wrestling in America, you'd see tons of people with Judo backgrounds making quick adjustments to MMA just like you saw with bjj, wrestling, boxing, and muay thai when MMA was young in the 2000s. I saw the same arguments against each of those sports as I see with Judo (boxing = no leg kicks, MT = stance is easier for takedowns, wrestlers = no sub/sub defense). In fact, the Judo/MMA formula has always been there with Fedor. A guy who barely went for a double/single no less, but took almost everyone down including high level wrestlers/grapplers.

It's ultimately a numbers game. Most MMA coaches in America don't have Judo backgrounds. They have wrestling or BJJ backgrounds so they teach what they know. So the pool of qualified instructors and students is already limited. So you can't expect them to know how to make quick tweaks to Judo for MMA when they have no experience with it at a highly competitive level. I'm at a highly competitive gym that's won several national level Judo tournaments and most of our high level people, including myself, came from BJJ backgrounds or wrestling. Our coaches have also coached people in MMA using Judo. Some in our gym have very high level bjj backgrounds (ADCC), and they've all taken what they've learned back to BJJ (gi or no gi)/MMA or other grappling areas and have had tons of success. None would complain and say Judo is ineffective for their no gi grappling despite only wearing a gi in Judo. It's actually only made their grappling better.

[u/powerhearse → u/Mobile-Estate-9836]

Fact is, the fundamental mechanics and shapes are all that matter because tweaks such as gloves, gis, clothing, and rulesets are easy to make.

One of these things is not like the others. The difference between gi and nogi is way more extensive than your other examples, it's simply undeniable. They arent comparable

Gordon Ryan can throw on a gi right now and still win 95% of tournaments out there. What matters are his sound fundamentals, mechanics, and mat time.

Gi vs no gi on the ground is a totally different scenario to on the feet. The differences are much more severe on the feet as I'm sure you've experienced

I do agree that the transition from strictly gi to no gi mma is harder.

This is exactly my point and I'm glad we agree on this

But when the person doing it is a high level athlete who has faced some of the toughest competition on the planet in two of the hardest sports (wrestling/judo) with thousands of hours of mat time, figuring out a slightly different no gi grip is not that big of a deal. Figuring out how to setup and hit a foot sweep, trip, harai, or other takedown though, which may take thousands of reps to get down, is.

I agree, but that isn't the discussion we are having. I never claimed Judoka can't transition to no gi or MMA. Just that it is definitely not the best base for MMA

The reason judoka aren't as present in MMA as they could be is due to the culture in Judo (mainly IJF), and the lack of Judo in America.

I certainly agree that this is part of the problem, and I've pointed this out before using the French Judo federation's blocking of MMA legalisation as an example. The culture differences are definitely influential

I saw the same arguments against each of those sports as I see with Judo (boxing = no leg kicks, MT = stance is easier for takedowns, wrestlers = no sub/sub defense). In fact, the Judo/MMA formula has always been there with Fedor.

While this is true, more of boxing/MT directly transfers than does Judo. Lots of Judo does transfer, but lots of it is totally different

Fedor is probably the most succesful Judoka in MMA, and an example of how it certainly CAN work. You CAN transition from any sport. Lesnar transitioned from professional wrestling and it did help. Matt Mitrione and others came into MMA from an NFL background and elements of those certainly helped.

But again, that isn't the discussion. Your argument originally was that Judo is one of the best bases to start from for MMA, and that just isn't the case for 99% of Judoka

t's ultimately a numbers game. Most MMA coaches in America don't have Judo backgrounds. They have wrestling or BJJ backgrounds so they teach what they know. So the pool of qualified instructors and students is already limited. So you can't expect them to know how to make quick tweaks to Judo for MMA when they have no experience with it at a highly competitive level.

This works both ways, in that many adult wrestling programs (the few that exist) and many BJJ schools are closely linked to or co-located with MMA schools. This cross-pollination means that even pure BJJ/wrestling folks from those schools will be learning a style which is better catered to MMA integration

Your own point, that Judo culture doesn't really lend itself to cross-pollination with MMA, is a classic example of this. Even the most sportive BJJ schools have a link to MMA through the Gracies and the old school UFC; every BJJ school will have folks interested in striking on the ground, MMA etc. Its rare to be at a BJJ school and not have at least one MMA fighter around

That cross-pollination doesn't exist in Judo, except in Eastern Europe where the combat sambo to MMA pipeline is well established. Eastern Europe was one of your other examples, and it proves well that grappling systems with close links to MMA tend to produce better and more MMA fighters

As you yourself said, that isn't the case for the vast majority of Judo and its part of the reason I believe Judo isn't the best base for MMA by a long shot

I'm at a highly competitive gym that's won several ...

Great example of the type of cross-pollination I'm talking about and I agree with your points in this paragraph

But that isn't the standard at 99.9% of Judo clubs. I love Judo and when well integrated of course it works well in MMA; but your average Judoka is not doing what you are doing