102
u/Judoka229 sankyu Apr 15 '25
Maybe the real ippon is the friends we made along the way.
White gi.
6
1
68
20
46
u/kafkaphobiac shodan Apr 15 '25
White, there is no sutemi on guard
10
u/noraetic Apr 15 '25
I don't train Judo, did some (non-B)JJ few years ago and am just here for the throws. I thought blue had ippon because it looked like sutemi. Everybody says its white with ouchi gari and after rewatching i agree but what do you mean with "on guard"? It doesnt count when he's down or what?
26
u/kafkaphobiac shodan Apr 15 '25 edited Apr 16 '25
It means that blue had to have a feet on the belt (tomoe nage) or in the inner thights (sumi gaeshi) to count as a sutemi, otherwise blue is just pulling on guard using the hand grip while keeping white between his legs.
2
0
15
u/d_rome Apr 15 '25
White with the O Uchi Gari. They were not in a newaza situation.
Who was awarded the victory? It looks like the scoreboard says blue, but that can be changed by the table.
4
14
9
8
u/JapaneseNotweed Apr 15 '25
White under how the rules are currently applied but I'd admire a ref who was willing to give no score.
7
u/JudoRef IJF referee Apr 16 '25
White.
This is an easy one. White takes over, O uchi gari is effective - he "takes away" blue's right leg, blue is completely in the air. White has grip (control) until the impact.
6
u/Pepper_taco_cat Apr 15 '25
Blue would not have fall flat on his back if white didn't do the o uchi gari. White caused a change of direction.
Ippon white
6
u/Leading_Neat2541 Apr 16 '25
100% the white one. The blue one acted like he attempted a sacrifice throw afterwards, but if you watch, he just fell, both legs in the air, right on his back
8
6
9
u/maicapitu Apr 15 '25
First video in this group showing people with decent posture. -Blue does drop Seoi nage with no control. Tries to stand up but he is off balance and falls back. -White does O uchi opportunistically with his left hand stuck on Blue’s lappel while being pulled down by Blue’s fall I would not give any score. Would understand referee giving score to white but not to blue though.
4
u/According_Fail_990 nidan Apr 16 '25
White’s repeatedly attacking the outside of blue’s right leg before pivoting into the Ouchi, so I wouldn’t consider it an opportunistic attack by White so much as Blue picking a very bad time to attempt a sacrifice throw.
2
u/u4004 Apr 16 '25
I mean, these are Olympic-level athletes. No surprise they have good posture.
0
u/maicapitu Apr 17 '25
They are national Brazilian level athletes 😉 pretty far from Olympic level
1
3
2
u/Fun-Conclusion-3775 Apr 15 '25
I've lost like this a couple of times, doing what blue did.
I'm pretty sure if white is doing a throw, in this case left uchi gari (he clearly hooked his leg), and the opponent falls on their back it's ippon for white. No matter if blue rolls afterwards. (I'm not a referee though)
2
2
u/wowspare Apr 15 '25
White's ippon, with ouchi gari.
There was no sacrifice throw attempt by blue, that's just blue's own ad-hoc justification / acting.
2
u/aaronschatz Apr 15 '25
El azul abusa del falso ataque, el blanco sin embargo aprovecho su descuidado gesto y lo capitalizó. Ganó el blanco por su clara intención y buen timing
1
2
2
2
u/Agitated-Chemist8613 Apr 20 '25
Blue. Watch his left leg and how he stretches it out. He wasn’t trying to plant it on the ground, he wanted to go down that way.
3
5
u/MagicGuava12 Apr 15 '25
Blue was actively moving and got white in a controlled manner to the mat and rolled through. But idk rules are weird
10
u/beambeam1 Apr 15 '25
I feel like white's left leg O-uchi action was more decisive here. The fact that both blue's legs end up off the mat suggest to me that white had more control.
5
u/Guusssssssssssss Apr 15 '25
thats what I thought at first but looking again I saw white put him on his back with an ouchi first if you look closely - then he rolled through it making it look like he winned.
3
u/According_Fail_990 nidan Apr 16 '25
Actively moving on to your own back on the floor is a risky move in judo.
5
u/Yoru83 Apr 15 '25
Blue considering he initiated the throw and was in control the whole time. I would give it to white if he showed control or redirected the initial direction of the throw. My father who is a ref agreed.
I couldn’t tell who they gave it to in the video though.
4
u/megabobert Apr 15 '25
White goes for the ouchi, he takes out blue's right foot and white is still flat footed. Both of blue's feet are off the ground. I think white has control here.
Screenshot https://imgur.com/a/WhQEeyx
-3
1
u/HungarianWarHorse Apr 15 '25
Blue, he went for the sacrifice throw and white tried to play it off like a counter
2
u/JudoRef IJF referee Apr 16 '25
It's definitely more than just "tried". It's a recognizable judo technique (o uchi gari) with visible effect (sweeps blue's leg away). Had white only stepped down (without actual gari) then it's debatable. I can't imagine this not being scored for white after a review. Referee can make a mistake with initial decision (as was this case) but upon review there's no question - white all the way.
1
u/jon-ryuga U73 belgian judo student, coach & referee Apr 16 '25
I'm happy we agree on that, I often agree with your analysis, but it seems I was downoited for that opinion which made me doubt of my interpretation. For me blue couldn't score anyway, it's after the o uchi from white and he's using his back, though i agree without the clear kuzushi, it wouldn't be as clear cut
1
1
1
2
-1
u/tribalxx Apr 16 '25
Blue got it. White didn't do any type of kuzushi or any other aggressive offense other than a weak ouchi that would not have caused a throw
2
0
Apr 16 '25
Os dois aplicaram técnicas, mas o branco foi melhor sucedido. Não sei qual técnica o azul tentou aplicar, mas com certeza ele não fez completamente (com vigor e qualidade necessários para um ippon). Além disso, o azul encostou as costas no tatame, enquanto que o branco não.
1
1
1
1
1
1
u/JudoKuma Apr 16 '25
First glance blue, but on the slowdown view you can see that blue did not get the leg on hip for it to count as tomoe while white did ouchi gari.
Should be scored ippon for white.
1
u/Johnbaptist69 Apr 16 '25
White, blue is doing what every bjj guy does every time in randori, just roll with the throw and get top position.
1
2
u/TheFightingFarang Apr 16 '25
(BJJ guy here)
Strange that you can roll, end up on top in a pinning position and still considered to have lost the exchange.
I know that white won, I'm just saying it's a funny situation.
1
u/Sirovi87 Apr 16 '25
White had an o uchi gari, but they might missed it and gave blue an ippon on the sacrifice throw.
3
u/JiggetyJDrizzy Apr 16 '25
White. Blue did not initiate (no foot on the hip or inner thigh) for the throw.
1
u/SnakeyThrowaway023 Apr 16 '25
Situations like this give me PTSD. I went for a Sumo Gaeshi in a tournament. My opponent attempted a sweep and missed me completely but because I sacrificed and the judge missed the angle he just saw us both falling sideways and me spinning over and rolling on top. He called ippon on me, the side judges looked at each other, the crowd booed, my crush was watching….. bad day
1
u/Right_Situation1588 shodan Apr 16 '25
I think if it was to give a point to blue, it should have been yuko, this is definitely not a ippon (i also believe it should have been for white)
1
u/Right_Situation1588 shodan Apr 16 '25
I think if it was to give a point to blue, it should have been yuko, this is definitely not a ippon (i also believe it should have been for white)
1
1
u/RippaRapaNui Apr 16 '25
It’s been a minute but I’d would have given a waza ari to blue. He was the one on the attack. he knocked whites foot. he end on top. But white was on his side not on his back.
1
1
2
1
u/twat_swat22 Apr 16 '25
I wanna say Blue is def in control tryna get him on the ground by leveraging
1
1
1
1
1
u/MyPenlsBroke Apr 17 '25
Neither of them. If you don't have enough control that people can't tell who won, it isn't ippon... but I hate modern Judo, so downvote away.
1
1
u/SevaSentinel Apr 17 '25
If not for white using his leg to do ouchi, blue might have had a case for a sutemi waza
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
u/Ullian72 Apr 17 '25
White Ippon. When blue rolls white over, white finishes on his left hip, no part of the whites back touched the floor.
1
1
1
1
u/Plus-Violinist346 Apr 19 '25
Good lord, no one should get any "Ippon" here. Ippon is supposed to be a decisive throw. Control, power, and speed etc. How about like a koka or something.
Two players scrambling into a mutual fall.
Blue ended up on top, and White's O Uchi was completely not decisive by any means, so honestly that should take precedence over that scramble to the ground as an Ippon. Two people tumbled to the ground, one of them ended up in the dominant position.
I know, the rules of Judo don't care about any of that. Just sayin'.
1
u/Electrimagician ikkyu Apr 19 '25
The fall was not in the direction of whites very weak o uchi. It was in the direction of blues clearly intentional sacrifice throw. Blue had the control and momentum.
Blue
1
u/oTalDoSokka May 13 '25
the action was White's Previously, Blue applied a false technique and tried to reverse it, but White was quicker and applied the leg technique to the opponent after but you will say that one was on the ground and the other was not It is only ne-waza when both competitors are on the ground Furthermore, Ippon do Branco
1
1
1
u/fintip nidan + bjj black | newaza.club Apr 16 '25
I think what is frustrating about this is that blue had already initiated his own fall before white initiated his "throw".
My gut instinct was also blue on first watch.
Too messy, but I don't think it's clear cut that it's white.
3
u/JudoRef IJF referee Apr 16 '25
Yes, it is frustrating for blue. But not awarding a score for white despite obviously performing an effective judo technique would just be wrong. It would mean that a counter to sutemi waza is not possible. Blue committed. White took the opportunity and performed a technique (even took control, swept blue's leg away, blue was completely in the air before impact), he should be awarded a score.
1
u/fintip nidan + bjj black | newaza.club Apr 16 '25
For me, the important question is, was white already going over whether he wanted to or not? If so, it wasn't a counter, you have to decisively stop the initial throw to demonstrate your own control to initiate a counter.
It looks to me like white is going over before he initiated his o-ouchi.
0
0
u/PrestigiousAssist689 Apr 16 '25
Come on, there is no o uchi. Barely a desperate countermeasure that looks like it. No pressure, no move in white's body. He is basically on his tippie toes and FOLLOWS, the movement initiated by blue sutemi.
Blue tries ippon and creates all the motion for a tomoe nage/yoko tomoe that is succesfull, even if the up leg is not well placed.
100% correct ippon for blue.
3
u/JudoRef IJF referee Apr 16 '25
Check the video again, from 0:42 on, the slow motion part. There definitely is o uchi.
0
u/PrestigiousAssist689 Apr 16 '25
His feet moves, yes, AFTER blue initiated a sutemi . Look at whites arms and body, NOTHING is happening, appart a desperate foot positioning.
Blue falls bcs of his sutemi, not because of whites foot.
Ippon for blue.
3
u/JudoRef IJF referee Apr 16 '25
So you're saying that sutemi is impossible to counter?
If white did that same o uchi gari without blue's sutemi with same result, would it count?
O uchi gari can't be ignored. It's effect is too visible. Blue gambled and (should have) lost. Sutemi was desperation. White would never have fallen if he didn't commit to o uchi.
0
u/PrestigiousAssist689 Apr 17 '25
You can counter sutemi. For that, use your arms and body and actually make a mouvement.
Placing the tip of your foot and taking the full sutemi fall does not cut it though.
Without sutemi, let us be honest, o uchi gari would not have succeded.
2
u/ExchangeNo1476 Apr 16 '25
I would say yes except that blue did not plant his left foot, either on the ground or on his hip/leg.
White was holding him off balance and finished the o uchi by knocking his only limb off the ground.
1
u/PrestigiousAssist689 Apr 17 '25
There is also no stop on blues fall, sutemi is fluid and continues. This is a further point for blue.
Upper foot positioning of blue is a bit...approximate. I will give you this ;).
And yes, both blue and white are clearly in full improvisation mode... probably why we disagree on the analysis!
1
u/Right_Situation1588 shodan Apr 16 '25
Even in this situation I don't think it's should have been an ippon though, only wazari
2
0
u/L0RD_VALMAR Apr 15 '25
Blue, even if white did the kaeshi. In current rules, if someone executes an uchi makikomi, characterizing it, and manages to throw, no matter which way, and no matter getting hit by ashi waza in kaeshi, then either ippon/wazari/yuko should be scored.
0
u/jon-ryuga U73 belgian judo student, coach & referee Apr 16 '25
can't score on kaeshi waza by using your back, so either white or no score, here we have a clear o uchi grai from white. It's deinitely ippon white
-1
u/L0RD_VALMAR Apr 16 '25
All that I am saying in this comment is a literal replication of IJF’s position on this subject. Blue scores, no matter what, IF the technique is uchi makikomi.
0
u/VX_GAS_ATTACK Apr 15 '25
I don't do Judo so whatever, but if that was a fight I'd rather have been blue
0
u/Bad-Batch-of-85 Apr 16 '25
Blue with Tomoe-nage.
Outside of the ring in a real situation White would go full back on the ground: wouldn’t recover as easy.
I accept corrections on my view.
4
u/Sparks3391 sandan Apr 16 '25
There's no foot placement from blue onto white. Both of blues feet are in the air one either side of the body, so there is definitely no tomoe-nage.
The reaping action of whites leg makes it a definite ouchi gari, and blue kind of just flails around to try and turn it into something when he's already lost.
2
u/Bad-Batch-of-85 Apr 16 '25
I replayed several times and now I can see that. Thanks for the explanation.
0
u/porl judocentralcoast.com.au Apr 16 '25
Outside of the ring in a real situation White would go full back on the ground: wouldn’t recover as easy.
Outside of the ring in a real situation White would not go for an ouchi gari and instead stab the other person and then shoot him and steal all his money.
Seriously though, taking any combat sport and putting it out of context makes no sense. White's goal was to put Blue down on his back with everything he has. Blue's goal is to avoid that at all costs. Of course in this situation White will throw all his body momentum through in order to achieve his goal. He doesn't care if "he would be at risk in da streetz". Someone on the streets in "a real situation" is in general not going to have nearly as good upright defence and White would not need to put nearly as much momentum into the throw. It's also trivially easy (and absolutely awful to experience as uke) to avoid a roll through if you decide to, but again a roll through is beneficial to the thrower in the sport so of course they will happily use it.
Just like you can say "BJJ is shit because I'll do X when you just pull guard on me". Just because they know they can pull guard in their sport context does not mean they will do that in any other situation.
Or even "playing Rugby is stupid because if I give you a ball on the streets you will automatically grab it so I have access to your pockets". Sounds dumb, right? But they train grabbing the ball so much it must be instinctual for them, right??
It's a tired dead argument and is usually thrown around by people with no real combat training in any real sport or live martial art.
2
u/Fresh_Criticism6531 gokyu Apr 16 '25
The argument isn't wrong, there is video evidence of BJJ guys dropping guard in real fights. Rugby isn't a fighting sport, isn't comparable. Those guys indeed were conditioned by their training and did it in real life. But I don't blame BJJ here, they should have trained double leg take down to take the fight to the ground, but I guess many BJJ gyms don't train it.
It's just like Karate, I'd surely do a Karate punch in a fight. It turns out they aren't really great, pulling the arm so far back, and all straight. Boxing punches are much better and more flexible. But I never trained any Boxing, only Karate, I can't do better.
1
u/porl judocentralcoast.com.au Apr 16 '25
The vast majority of engagements between someone who trained and someone who didn't goes in favour of the one who trained. A few idiots pulling guard because they don't know any better isn't what I'm talking about. The video shown by OP is of a high level athlete, not some white-belt "I train UFC bro" wannabe fighter who has dabbled a bit and thinks they can fight.
Your karate punch (assuming you train live and not some mcdojo air-punching-only style) will still win out in the vast majority of theoretical engagements. Of course boxing, which specialises in punching more than any other sport, is going to be better at that which it specialises in. That's not up for debate really.
1
u/Bad-Batch-of-85 Apr 16 '25 edited Apr 16 '25
Your comment is a mix of unpoliteness and a deep need to display knowledge. I learned nothing from it. I am sorry for you.
1
u/porl judocentralcoast.com.au Apr 16 '25
Cool. In that case I suggest you train more and you'll learn the difference between rolling through on purpose and being able to control your momentum when you aren't fighting an elite athlete.
0
u/Agile_Rutabaga_343 Apr 22 '25
Its the judoka with the blue gi because he used O uchi gari and the fighter in white dont hold the leg with his own legs. So its an ippon for blue
165
u/LankyAd5803 Apr 15 '25
White with ōuchi gari