r/judo • u/SheikFlorian gokyu • May 06 '25
Other Why most dojos follow competition rules?
I completely understand why the competition rules exist the way they do.
I understand dojos focused on training athletes and honing talents following competition rules.
But, afaik, most dojos want to teach people The Way; the philosophy, the techniques, the lifestyle, etc.
Wouldn't it be natural that most dojos taught a more complete version com the art? With leg grabs and a slight bigger focus on newaza?
(Just to be clear: I don't want judô to be another BJJ, just that the dojos would teach us, commercial students, a less competitive focused version of the art)
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u/Emperor_of_All May 06 '25
You are only good at what you train. So it is natural to teach what is the mostly regulated form which is competition judo. If you want your students to compete the biggest problem of teaching the martial way is you are
1 wasting a lot of time teaching techniques they will not be using regularly if they compete.
2 you are training your students to essentially fail at competition because they will instinctively go for a move that is banned.
3 you are training them a completely different style, when you have to deal with leg grabs you tend to stand differently and fight differently which is also bad in a competition sense.
4 arguably against a non trained combatant those leg grabs and other banned techniques make a minimal difference, while it makes a bigger difference against a trained grappler. So you are spending a lot of time training something for a demographic that makes a small amount of the populace to begin off with.
With that said I am all for training the full art with all throws etc. I just understand the other side.
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u/SheikFlorian gokyu May 06 '25
But most people don't compete.
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u/Emperor_of_All May 06 '25
About 1/2 of my dojo competes, idk about other dojos but I think a lot of people who do judo compete.
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u/dazzleox May 06 '25
Most of our club above the age of 14 competes, just not all at a high level.
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u/SheikFlorian gokyu May 06 '25
Do they compete on a regular basis? Or once or twice a year?
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u/dazzleox May 06 '25
Most don't have high-level Judo or collegiate wrestling aspirations. A few do and may make college choices accordingly and compete frequently. People my age, once or twice a year is about right.
I'm happy to do rounds with leg grabs in randori with anyone who wants. My experience is people realize that mostly they're not able to pull it off due to kumi kata, except sometimes te guruma as a counter.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu May 06 '25
You’d be surprised. My sensei has convinced basically anyone that trains with him to compete if they so much as throw someone in randori. To him, it’s the best way to test your judo and improve.
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u/SheikFlorian gokyu May 06 '25 edited May 06 '25
I mean, yeah. This kind of competition make sense. But that's not high performance, you could train both forms.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu May 06 '25
My first dojo had some of the best players in my country. One of the girls is a name responsible for a good share of points in the nation’s IJF ranking. And this was run out of some school hall on puzzle mats.
It’s not reasonable to assume most dojos ain’t nothing. You’d be surprised.
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u/Cryptomeria May 06 '25
and like 1/100000 has ever used Judo in self defense., let alone used a leg grab in self defense. What is gained by training those techniques?
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u/SheikFlorian gokyu May 06 '25
For starters, leg grabs are part of the Nage-no-Kata, you gotta learn them to get a black belt eventually.
What is gained by training them is that you learn a whole skillset that Kano intended as part of Judo (and that isn't harmful as flying juji gatame and leg locks). You gain a better understanding of your art.
I've never talked about self defense and I never will.
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u/Cryptomeria May 06 '25
So take them out of the Shodan curriculum, as irrelevant. It's still Judo, and still has all the ethics, self development etc etc.
When it comes to the goals of Judo as stated by Kano, there's nothing about which techniques are necessary.
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u/monkey_of_coffee shodan May 09 '25
They should. Competition is a huge part of kano's vision. Way more than any one throw.
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u/d_rome May 06 '25
Why most dojos follow competition rules?
Because Judo is the largest grappling sport in the world and it's a very organized and centralized sport. It's helpful for the vast majority of students that we all train under an agreed upon rule set. Judo has always been a sport with moderate self-defense applications. There is not an agreed upon "more complete version" of Judo. That looks different to many different people.
Consistency from dojo to dojo is important to many people, myself included. I wouldn't want to visit a club and be surprised by a flying juji gatame or visit a different club and be surprised with Daki Age just because they want to practice a "more complete version".
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u/jag297 shodan May 06 '25
I teach leg grabs for 1 week of the 12 week beginner curriculum. People seem to enjoy it, it helps attract the bjj crowd, doesnt get in the way or comp training, and gives people a break from the routine.
It is nice.
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u/martial_arrow shodan May 06 '25 edited May 06 '25
I don't think I would characterize most dojos that way. At least in the US, it seems like most dojos are competition focused so of course they will follow the rules. A lot of the more recreational dojos focus on physical fitness so they don't really care about whether or not they can do leg grabs.
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u/SheikFlorian gokyu May 06 '25
Wow, had no idea. Here in Brazil most dojos do compete, for the experience and stuff, but competing isn't the main focus.
As far my experience goes of course.
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u/martial_arrow shodan May 06 '25
Yeah, unfortunately it is probably why Judo is dying in the US. I've seen too many people get burned out or injured from being pushed into competition.
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u/Otautahi May 06 '25
In my experience dojos that compete have a higher level of judo than those which don’t, regardless of the rulesets.
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u/natfnr May 06 '25
but i guess 80% of people in judo aim to compete, so following the rules makes complete sense
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u/SheikFlorian gokyu May 06 '25
Are you from the US?
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u/natfnr May 06 '25
no, why you asking?
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u/SheikFlorian gokyu May 06 '25
Some of the other answers pointed how, in the US, most people that get into judô do so to compete. Just wanted to know how much of a global experience that is.
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u/TrustyRambone shodan May 06 '25
UK here. I'd say 80% here compete too, for adults.
For kids it's closer to 95%.
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u/TiredCoffeeTime May 06 '25
I’m Korean and almost every dojos I’ve visited competed. Same goes for the couple dojos I visited in the U.S.
It helps younger participants to have a more competitive mindset and goal while good achievements can be something high school students can include in their University application as their extra curriculums.
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u/disposablehippo shodan May 06 '25
In Germany you have mandatory techniques you need to demonstrate during belt exams. 2nd Dan has full Nage-no-Kata and the complete list of Kodokan techniques. So you need knowledge on all of those techniques including leg grabs to progress with your belts. But you are right, most Dojos here mostly don't spend much time on them as well. But adult Judo is not that much of a thing here and most kids will compete at least on regional level.
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u/SheikFlorian gokyu May 06 '25
Were you a dojo owner, would your adult classes allow some banned (yet safe) techniques?
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u/disposablehippo shodan May 06 '25
I'm just a humble student, but revolved around the sun for 37 years now.
For advanced students, probably 16 years and brown belt, I would show the techniques to promote knowledge. There is really no reason to teach them earlier, as they have enough other stuff to learn. Especially people who start later are so eager to know every single technique out there before even being able to properly apply a single one. As experienced Judoka you need to slow them down.
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u/btuman nikyu May 06 '25
Most of the Judo that happens in the world is sport Judo. It's one of the most popular sports on earth.
So it's pretty natural for Dojos to teach to that and possibly supplement the other stuff.
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u/GasCute7027 May 06 '25
I’ve only seen two judo classes teach different than Olympic Rules. One is in Norwalk CA and the other is a Judo class that is taught at an MMA Gym in San Bernardino CA. The one in Norwalk is self defense oriented.
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u/supportingxcaste rokkyu May 06 '25
Are we talking Norwalk Judo? That is awesome, and I for sure would be interested in learning the OG style.
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u/GasCute7027 May 06 '25
Makoto Kai. The sensei is an LA Sheriffs Department Captain who mainly teaches self defense.
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u/supportingxcaste rokkyu May 06 '25
Will have to check it out. I’ve heard good things.
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u/GasCute7027 May 06 '25
Too bad I live way too far away. One of the best dojos I have ever had the pleasure of training at.
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u/SheikFlorian gokyu May 06 '25
And why do you think this happens?
Most people don't compete anyway...
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u/GasCute7027 May 06 '25
Sorry OP I forgot to answer that part. I think it happens because the vast majority of instructors learned Olympic style and keep up with the rules. Kind of like how kids baseball and basketball teams always mimic the rules of the majors as much as possible with minor tweaks to age ground (like our no Joint locks for kids general rule).
So for me it is a bit of a simplistic answer but one based on what I’ve noticed at any club I trained in.
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u/amsterdamjudo May 06 '25
In my 40 years of teaching kids, we started as a competitive dojo. Most of our kids had judo, the streets and little else. We had many successful students at the local, regional, state and national levels. It was also a time when tournaments were affordable.
After a flood shut down our community based dojo, we were invited into an elementary and middle school to teach. We have been there for twelve years. We only practice once weekly due to kids having multiple commitments. Accordingly, we became a recreational dojo with the focus on technique.
Our kids first learn the Kodokan Kodomo no Kata, then the GoKyo no Waza , followed by the first 3 sets of the Nage no Kata and the Osaewaza of the Katame no Kata.
They learn Kodokan Judo, not IJF Judo.🥋
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u/BlockEightIndustries May 06 '25
Competitive judo players fund judo. Your club runs out of the community center and charges a pittance compared to a commercial martial arts facility (BJJ, karate, taekwondo, etc), but can make enough money to keep the club going by hosting tournaments.
Not to mention, parents put their kids in a sport expecting them to compete.
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u/SheikFlorian gokyu May 06 '25
The first part does make sense on a business perspective, yeah.
The seocnd one is wild to me, tho. Uusally, on my cultural circle, parents put kids in sports so they can be healthy and active. Using the cultural cornerstone of my country, Football, as an exemple, parents will put their kids in a soccer club so he can play every wednesday. If he's good, the trainer will reccomend putting him in a proper school, focused on preparing him to enter a club's school.
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u/cuerda May 06 '25
The club where I train is competition focus, most clubs in Spain and rest of Europe are, we do newaza everyday as is very important for competitors to have a top ground game.
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u/Many_Librarian9434 May 08 '25
The better question is why local clubs are so attached to the IJf. Other martial arts have multiple rival organisations so there is more room for alternative rule sets. It's only 0.0001 percent of judoka that have any chance at the Olympics so it seems very silly for clubs to focus on that rule set so closely
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u/ZardozSama May 06 '25
Competition success is generally considered a reasonable measuring stick for the quality of instruction. And many people choose to learn a martial art out of a desire to know how to fight.
If no one in that dojo wins in competition, someone may choose to train elsewhere, or may regard the dojo as a McDojo.
END COMMUNICATION
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u/SheikFlorian gokyu May 06 '25
Well, I train at my University's dojo. It's mostly recreational, we do compete once or twice a year, and do fairly decent, but those competitions aren't our main goal/focus.
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u/Uchimatty May 06 '25
I dispute the idea that “commercial students” want to learn weird techniques that can’t be used anymore. I trained at a gym once that had different senseis every day. One would always do these odd Japanese jujutsu and kata drills, and everyone hated it. While nobody complained obviously, that class was by far the smallest of the week.
In general all judo students want to get better at judo. They want to be able to throw people in their gyms who compete. So while not all judokas compete, all judokas are competitive because randori with competitors is their benchmark for skill.
Shiai itself was also firmly baked into judo by Kano sensei. So much that I would say competition focused gyms are traditional and gyms focusing on whatever else there is are non-traditional. The most brutal and competitive judo gym I’ve ever been to proudly advertised itself as “traditional kodokan judo”.
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u/SheikFlorian gokyu May 06 '25
Friend, let's not be disonest here. There's a huge difference between "weird jujutsu techniques and kata" and leg grabs and newaza.
For starters, leg grabs were allowed in judo until 2010~13.
And many techniques from BJJ , like Della Riva, are, actually, part of Kosen Judô (and some argue that were created by Kodokan Judô).
A gym not following IJF's rules would allow you to... grab legs during randori. Which still is competitive? Just not olympic. Not following IJF's rules would allow newaza to not be deterred to only 30 seconds after a wazari, but make it an integral part of the fight. Also competitive, just not onlympic.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu May 06 '25
Kosen Judo is not a style, it’s just a ruleset that’s more predicated on being team based than any notion of being ground judo.
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u/Uchimatty May 06 '25
But it’s not competitive because no competition other than All Japans and AAU allows leg grabs. People benchmark their progress based on how well they randori with other students, and competitors among that student pool benchmark their progress based on… well… competition. Randori with leg grabs is not preparing competitors for tournaments, so they’ll go somewhere else, causing the overall level of the gym to drop and slowing everyone’s skill development.
Leg grabs and extra newaza are also overrated in my opinion. A long time ago I won freestyle judo nationals at the heyday of that movement (and this was back when I couldn’t even place at USA judo nationals). I did zero leg grab or special newaza training. Some competitors, including wrestlers, tried shooting but it was very easy to defeat. Those techniques don’t work very well in the gi.
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u/VerySaltyScientist May 06 '25
So sambo or bjj? Bjj already does leg grabs some gyms teach judo as well and most train on the ground. Sambo has more standup practice than bjj in general.
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u/SheikFlorian gokyu May 06 '25
No, not sambo nor BJJ, as I made clear at the end of the post.
Judo had leg grabs for many many years. And you gotta learn those to get a black belt anyway.
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u/LoneWolf_McQuade May 06 '25
As I understand the leg grabs were removed because they were used too much to stall matches? I mean as a judoka I’d be happy learn them but I also feel like mastering the rest is already a lot to learn and I rather be great at a few things rather than just ok in many.
Why not just do some BJJ training if you feel like you are missing something?
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u/SheikFlorian gokyu May 06 '25
Because it's not about me. I can do some BJJ and learn those things, but how will the art keep those traditions alive as the previous generation dies and nobody learns leg grabs anymore?
Me doing some BJJ solves it on a personal scale only.
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u/HuckleberrySerious43 May 06 '25
I'm in the U.S. I belong to three judo clubs.
Only one is competition-oriented; probably because there are lots of kids in the kid classes and the sensei is into competing.
I agree, though. For non-competition dojos, they should follow Kodokan judo.
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u/Just_Being_500 nidan May 06 '25
At the end of the day most Dojos (at least in the United States) are also a small business.
Competition excites people and gets them to commit to more/extensive training.
I get it and I’m 100% with you that leg grabs and ne waza should be taught more (when I competed leg grabs were legal) that being said with limited time to teach students in a private club setting I get why the focus is on adhering to the rule set of current competition.
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u/osotogariboom nidan May 06 '25
Judo's focus is 1st on the student athlete with the student being primary and the athlete being secondary. Judo has a moral code with respect and honor and truth being at its core and gamesmanship being adversely against this core principle. Following a singular code of conduct and a singular ruleset allows clubs from all areas to engage with each other at camps and clinics openly and creates an environment that encourages the exchange of students and coaches from different areas to join together.
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u/Specialist-Alfalfa39 May 06 '25
I live in London, UK, and none of the gyms I went to teaches old school stuff, such as leg grabs or standing locks or chokes. Apparently one gym does as they said on their website but they only talked about leg grabs not the rest I have mentioned. I am disappointed myself that I haven’t or will experience the old school judo.
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u/SheikFlorian gokyu May 06 '25
Standing locks I can understand why they're limited.
Chokes not so much.
Why do you think this happens?
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u/Specialist-Alfalfa39 May 06 '25
I do understand standing locks are dangerous but I believe they should be thought otherwise the spirit of judo is fading in my eyes.
Chokes are much safer sad they are banned too.
One teacher in one of the gyms told me, they are banned and can’t be used in the competition, so we just don’t teach them.
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u/fintip nidan + bjj black | newaza.club May 06 '25
Would be nice. I don't disagree.
I teach bjj and judo, so I cover how judo applies to bjj, including judo techniques allowed in bjj and not in judo competition, as well as no-gi applications and variations.
So at our club, if you do the bjj fist bump, you're sparring with bjj rules, and if you bow, you're sparring with judo competition rules. Up to students what they want to work.
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u/Whole_Measurement769 May 06 '25
I agree with you. Dojos should train for competitions but also teach the whole martial program.
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u/GwynnethIDFK May 07 '25
You'll probably have the best luck finding what you want if you train gi bjj and seek out other judoka during rolls. It's pretty much as you describe in my experience.
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u/Few_Advisor3536 judoka May 07 '25
Theres a few clubs where i live that arent competition focussed and nearly every single one does next to no randori and its mainly kata based clubs. These people every now again visit the club i train at (and possibly others) and are a fish out of water. They are very safe training partners with very clean technique but have no pacing during randori and next to no kumi kata ability.
For practical application, competition clubs are the go to. Even if some of the techniques are no longer taught on a regular basis.
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u/quakedamper bjj purple/shitty judo white belt May 07 '25
What do you mean The Way? It's a sport not a jedi academy. BJJ has that open ruleset you're looking for.
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u/Temporary-Soil-4617 May 07 '25
Hi OP! I went through the same though process like you a long time ago.
Now older, wiser and balder:
THE WAY, THE PHILOSOPHY:
Why do you think you won't be able to achieve the esoteric/ philosophical / complete version of yourself that old Judo promised by doing modern Judo?
Why do you think there's a difference between the philosophy of old Judo and the modern version? Do you feel that sport Judo is going away from its roots?
Whatever mental levels we unlock and reach a new level in our self discovery is more about pushing past our fears, challenging ourselves. One of the best ways to achieve that is by Randori. Not a very accurate system I agree but it goes give yardsticks to work on. That can be achieved by getting better at an O Goshi. Does not have to be with a Morote Gari. In fact, that's where Randori and Shiai come in.
Do you know who the actual insufferable pricks are in the world of Martial Arts? The guys who talk of philosophy and the way and the Do .......and don't spar and don't compete. I was a part of a Wing Chun class. I asked about a ankle pick or something and the senior student did not know it. I proceeded to do the world's WORST AND SLOWEST ankle pick and he slipped. Here's what happened next. We were discussing different systems with the Sifu over there and he asked the Sifu very innocently 'how do these guys (me) defend against..(some chinese term)..and out of the blue, in the post session relaxed discussion over water, unleashed a full force kick on my knee. Thank God for my Powerlifting background!
Do you know who does not do that? Guys who spar regularly. At least statistically they are less prone to doing that. Make no mistake....removing the techniques with a higher percentage of injuries allows you to practice better and actually challenge yourself.
LEG GRAB TECHNIQUES AND OTHER NOT ALLOWED MOVES:
Why did Jigoro Kano himself remove a lot of classic Jiu Justu moves? Why not include the Katana as I am sure a lot of old Jiu Jutsu would have included? Why is it ok for him to change what he learnt but not ok for us?
I am all for the modern rules. Do you really want to do a Morote Gari or a classic double leg spear? Try that at 40, 50..and then some. Esp if you have a full time job + a side hustle to take care of the bills and are not at athlete. I guess most do it 2/ week? Judo is being made safer for the general public to participate in. Nothing different from what Kano did.
If you want Leg Grabs, do you also want the juniors to compete with a Hadaka Jime ? I am honestly worried about BJJ allowing chokes and submissions in its Junior categories. Fingers crossed for all those kids!
Judo in its modern version is more all accepting! If you want to practice all other techniques, sure...just grab some like minded partners and do it every now and then. And/ or once in a while go to a wrestling/ sambo school. That's it!
All in peace OP!
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u/Beginning_Goat1949 May 06 '25
Ive wondered the same as well. Especially since my instructors are on the older side who spent most of their Judo carreers before the leg ban and most people dont compete.
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u/K0modoWyvern May 07 '25
Short answer: money
Long answer Most people forget that martial arts is a way of earning bread, competitions are a great way to get sponsors, more students and capital to your gym.
Every gym should find their customer niche(self defense, traditional, MMA, freestyle or organization specific competition, kids and teens, elder people, accessibility) in order to build a solid group of students to keep the gym alive in the long run
It can be frustrating because sometimes a gym can be too much focused on things that do not matter to you, which affects your training
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u/Possible_Golf3180 gokyu May 07 '25
They follow competition rules because competing is an important part to the learning process. You’re not up against someone you have fought long enough to have a specific strategy for them in specific or who is going to go soft on you, you have a competitor that is going at full intensity and with intent to win. Much easier to get those types of opponents with competition than by fighting random bums on the street.
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u/Otherwise_Exercise81 May 07 '25
Just be patient. Even though the focus will never be on IJF banned techniques, you will eventually learn things. If not normaly, then from a kata.
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u/bigbaze2012 May 06 '25
My gym got ppl going to nationals and international comps . They have to to be competitive