r/judo • u/jonahewell sandan • May 07 '25
Judo x MMA Could Satoshi Ishi have provided a consistent challenge to Teddy Riner over the last two decades?
I just learned today (from a judo fanatics ad) that when Ishi won the 2008 Olympics at +100, he was the lightest in history to win it. According to further internet research, he beat Riner on the way to the finals!
After that, he left judo for MMA and basically handed +100 over to Riner for the next 16 years. Good for him for doing what he wanted or needed to do, but it's really too bad for the judo fans that he didn't stick around. His MMA career was successful but not dominant.
12
u/judofox1 godan May 07 '25
Ishii did'nt beat Riner as a matter of fact It was Tangriev who beat him. In the final Ishii fought and wan against Tangriev. Riner got a bronze medal.
1
May 07 '25
[deleted]
1
0
u/euanmorse sandan May 07 '25
Kageura? Though that may have been wazari…
-1
May 07 '25
[deleted]
3
u/euanmorse sandan May 07 '25
Don't be condescending. My point was that I cannot remember if it was an Ippon or a 'waza-ari'.
-3
16
u/Uchimatty May 07 '25
Haha no. Ishii was very inconsistent and got extremely lucky. Before the Beijing Olympics he never even medaled at worlds. Tangriev, not Ishii, sent Riner to the repechage. A few years after Beijing, Ishii somehow lost at US nationals. But we don’t talk about that.
Ishii likes to crap on post-himself Japanese heavyweights but the reality is they were an improvement but didn’t get as lucky. Kamikawa, Kaguera and Harasawa were consistent winners, but Teddy Riner at that point had consolidated his advantage and was harder to beat (yet Kamikawa and Kaguera still managed).
7
u/Dangerous-Sink6574 May 07 '25
Ehhh, Ishii had already been retired for 6 years when he lost to Takahashi at Nationals in 2014 on a random shido. Tends to happen when you walk away for that long after your career ends. He probably showed up and walked on to that tournament cold since he was doing MMA at that time.
2
u/Rapton1336 yondan May 07 '25
He touched the leg in 2013 I believe. I forget what the shido was in 2014.
5
u/MyCatPoopsBolts shodan May 07 '25
Harasawa especially doesn't get enough credit. Extremely consistent, excellent physique for a Japanese heavyweight (tall, relatively lean). 2016 Harasawa would have wiped the floor with the competition in 2008.
3
u/Uchimatty May 07 '25
For real. In his most active year (2015), he had a 100% rate and he’s run through Tasoev, Inaev, Krpalek, Tushishvili etc.
4
u/Rapton1336 yondan May 07 '25
Ishii lost to Takahashi twice. Both times in OT. Takahashi in his day I believe has a win over Muneta. He was legitimately good.
People forget Ishii was also young for a heavyweight (early 20s). He wasn’t at worlds or any of the other major events because he hadn’t beaten out Inoue for the slot. He ended up winning all Japan’s (beating everyone) that year and was selected.
2
u/tabrice May 08 '25
Ishii moved up to the over 100 kg weight class in the autumn of 2007. He subsequently won all the competitions he entered and was selected for the 2008 Olympic team. By the way, he defeated his biggest rival Yasuyuki Muneta in the semifinal and Keiji Suzuki in the final of the 2008 All-Japan tournament with a chui and a wazaari, respectively. However, if he'd beaten Muneta at this tournament with a mere flag decision, Muneta was set to be selected instead of him. This prior arrangement was the consensus of the national team coaches, but he overturned it.
1
1
4
u/judofandotcom May 07 '25
Okano said in an interview that Ishii had the talent to be the greatest ever.
He only lost a few times from his Kodokan Cup win as a high school student to his gold at Beijing.
What I wonder is whether the Japanese federation would have tolerated him long enough for him to establish himself as one of the greatest of all time.
As far as beating Riner, I personally think he had the tools to be at the same level.
3
u/euanmorse sandan May 07 '25
I think that would be part of the problem. Ishii was essentially treated as the golden child who could do no wrong. Given that he was treated like this from such a young age, he became spoiled and resented the Japanese judo establishment.
The reason I think this is that post retirement he has been very critical of both Japanese judoka and the Japanese Kodokan / JOC.
1
u/tabrice May 08 '25
Hitoshi Saitō, who was the head coach of the national team at the time, was also Ishii's mentor at Kokushikan University. He tried to force Ishii into a facilities management company called Heisei Kanzai, with which he had deep ties, but Ishii was very reluctant to accept it. This is one of the reasons he switched to MMA, if not the biggest. Japanese judo athletes usually join companies recommended by their coaches or mentors, but Ishii didn't think this was a good idea.
2
u/Even_Resort1696 May 07 '25
He also inherited the title of oni no judo from kimura masahikos disciple.
5
u/ppaul1357 shodan May 07 '25
Riner is a genetic freak. His size, power and athleticism were incredible. No one was going to stop him from being extremely dominant. Sure there were many close fights especially when he got older where Riner could have lost and he got away with a lot of things that could/should have been Shidos, but generally his physique revolutionized male heavyweight Judo and there is no one who could have stopped that.
1
u/VLNR01 yondan May 07 '25
Yet Inal Tasoev stopped him at the 2023 World Championships, and Riner has done everything he could to avoid facing him since then.
1
u/ppaul1357 shodan May 09 '25
At some point everyone is stopped in Judo. In my opinion there are a few more fights he could or should’ve lost. He also isn’t as dominant now anymore because he is older of course. I even think people kind of figured him out. He seems to be a little weak to being countered if one wants to talk about a weakness which obviously seems a little bit ridiculous when talking about Riner. Kageura, Tasoev and Tushishvili have all countered him in their wins against him. (Tushishvilis win was later taken away but still he countered him). And Bashaev didn’t really counter him but he also used a moment where Riner wanted to take over his attack.
However that doesn’t change the fact that he is still on of if not the most dominant Judoka of the modern era and there is no one that could have stopped or challenged his reign.
8
u/wowspare May 07 '25
According to further internet research, he beat Riner on the way to the finals!
.... what "internet research" told you this? It was Tangriev that beat Riner at the 2008 Olympics. Ishii and Riner were on opposite brackets of the tournament. Ishii and Riner actually never competed against each other in their entire careers.
Riner in 2008 was not yet in his prime, being just 19 years old. No version of Ishii would have been able to challenge him.
Ishii winning the 2008 olympics is quite similar to Fabio Basile winning the 2016 Rio olympics. They both got really lucky, the stars happened to align for them and managed to have the day of their lives right at the olympics. Both Ishii and Basile were never near the top of their respective weightclasses their entire careers.
4
u/judofandotcom May 07 '25
That’s because ishii’s career was so short. He didn’t even move up to the heavyweight division until 2007. He barely lost between high school and his Olympic gold.
30
u/Notquitesane yondan May 07 '25
In 08 Riner was barely 18, and not fully adjusted to his enormous frame. Packing on muscle and polishing his techniques made him an absolute terror for anyone.
Satoshi is 5'11" and 240 lbs. Teddy is 6'8" and 285 lbs.
He would have been a challenge for Riner for sure. Not enough to overcome the massive size discrepancy.