r/judo • u/Blaster2000e • May 08 '25
Judo x MMA is there any such thing as no gi judo
ive only seen demostrations without gi but real sparing would make it far better for nogi sport and self defense
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u/Levelless86 shodan May 08 '25
Yeah it's called freestyle wrestling tbh.
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u/d_rome May 08 '25
That's right. No-Gi Judo doesn't exist as a sport so ultimately it's inferior Freestyle Wrestling. There isn't anything you can do in No-Gi Judo, in terms of throws, that you can't do in Freestyle Wrestling.
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u/Levelless86 shodan May 08 '25
There are only so many ways to grab onto someone and take them down at the end of the day. My original judo sensei was a greco guy first.
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u/jonahewell sandan May 09 '25
Ultimately it all depends on ruleset. There is no reason to have a no gi judo ruleset. If you like submissions, there's no gi jiujitsu, and you can try your throws there. If you like throws and pins, there's freestyle and greco. There's even a UWW ruleset for no gi grappling that is kind of a hybrid.
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u/ObjectiveFix1346 gokyu May 09 '25
If you join a no-gi BJJ gym and expect to get much time practicing throws against people, you will be sorely disappointed.
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u/jscummy May 08 '25
Greco Roman, more accurately
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u/Levelless86 shodan May 08 '25
To an extent, but they don't do foot sweeps in greco. Both have big throws and greco has a huge influence on my overall grappling game.
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u/jscummy May 08 '25
True, I just feel like it's closer than FS because free lets you shoot to the legs
But all grappling sports are basically different pieces of the larger game
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu May 08 '25
You can’t sweep, trip, or hit leg assisted takedowns at all and such throws are way more common than pure upper body throws.
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u/Kataleps rokkyu + BJJ Purple May 08 '25
No Ashi Waza warps the dynamics a lot. Freestyle Wrestling is closer in terms of allowed techniques. I think slight adjustments to the scoring criteria of FS would make it resemble Judo more.
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u/Time-You-1765 May 08 '25
You can actually do judo in freestyle wrestling lol. Forbidding leg attacks of any sort the way greco does makes it very dissimilar.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu May 08 '25
Not in the least bit at all. Classical Japanese Judo is straight up against the rules of Greco.
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u/DirtbagBrocialist ikkyu May 08 '25
Not really no, the people that incorporate Judo into sports without the gi (like MMA) were first really good at judo.
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u/freefallingagain May 08 '25
You mean official nogi sport judo as practiced in...where? And self-defence in countries where they don't wear clothes? (beaches in Brasil don't count)
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u/Blaster2000e May 08 '25
you won't always have a perfect sleeve and collar, also i tried to use judo in an mma class where we just did wrestling in t-shirts and got crushed
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May 09 '25
Was it because you don't really know Judo that well or because there was no gi 🤷♂️
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u/LiftEatGrappleShoot May 10 '25
Way back in the day, a Russian sambo player(?) came into the wrestling/jits school I was in. He had an extra jacket and we went an hour with shorts and the gi jacket on. He Rageddy-Andied my country ass up and down the mats. After an hour, we went no gi. I whipped him like a rented mule. Neither one of us were necessarily better grapplers. We were young and focused on one discipline. Since then, I've gotten better with the gi and likewise with him.
This reminds me of Karo Parisyan's Judo for MMA. I've used it to score some sick throws in no gi. Some are still floating around YouTube.
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u/bigbaze2012 May 08 '25
Check out JFlojudo on YouTube . He has a lot of useful stuff for adapting judo to no gi
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u/Milotiiic Ikkyu | M1 -u60kg | British Judo May 08 '25
BJA (British Judo) has started a no-gi Judo pilot last year and they’ve had a couple of competitions and this is the next one
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u/Due_Objective_ May 09 '25
Worth noting that we don't have a major wrestling tradition in the UK, so whilst this would be a silly thing to attempt in other countries, it kinda makes sense here.
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u/gnrtnlstnspc May 08 '25
I once attended a nogi judo seminar with Satoshi Ishii. He taught all sorts of variations for tai otoshi.
Otherwise, no, there's not much nogi judo that I know of.
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u/thai2pro May 09 '25
Oh man, what I wouldn't give to have been there. It's my favorite throw and I hate the gi
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u/Ok-Advertising6824 May 09 '25
Meh on the notion that Gi doesn’t relate to self defense. Maybe you live in a world where everyone is only wearing rash guards. Either way where do you live? Los Angeles has Hollywood Judo which has some no Gi classes
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u/Dense_fordayz May 08 '25
Yeah, it's used in UFC
Look up Justin Flores he does a lot of no gi work
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u/Comfortable-Idea-396 May 08 '25
The question is more so alluding to the idea of "no-gi judo" as a pure sport in and of itself. I would argue no, it's not. And I'm a hard-nosed judoka through and through.
Judo evolved from Japanese Ju-Jutsu, which involved maiming or killing samurai on the battlefields while wearing a suit of armor, and evolved to wearing a gi (which was typically under that suit of armor). To be fully useful, judo is predicated on having a gi, jacket, and clothing in general, so it's applicable in everyday life and self-defence.
Is it useful in "no-gi" as a sport? Sure, it's adaptable. But the current fad for no-gi judo was brought on by unrealistic expectations from BJJ and MMA enthusiasts. At the end of the day, there are many parts of Ju-Do that are applicable in any no-gi setting (all ashiwaza, for example), but it's hardly its own dedicated sport.
It's really become an amalgamation of traditional judo nagewaza coupled with freestyle wrestling grips and entries.
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u/Economy_Weakness_507 May 08 '25
Do you feel as though BJJ and MMA enthusiasts are overly harsh towards Judo vs the other grappling sports for so called "effectiveness"
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u/Comfortable-Idea-396 May 08 '25
TLDR: My thoughts don't matter much in the court of public opinion. But yes, BJJ and MMA crap on judo without really knowing much about it. They also don't know what a pro grappler in an actual professional setting looks like.
My opinion isn't relevant because most BJJ/MMA guys are pretty elitist with how much better wrestling is. But in short, obviously, yes.
Most BJJ folks have ZERO idea of what it takes to be a professional in Judo. They think they do, and think what Wardzinski or whoever the new hot name is doing is "pro" but when compared to Judo for example, it's a nothingburger.
If you objectively took a look at what international judoka go through, and do, you'll realize that from a fitness, expertise and truly professional level, they are way beyond what a super high level BJJ person does day-to-day.
We're talking about entire countries supporting a massive infrastructure of athletes, supported through sponsorships with multi-billion dollar corporations across multiple pro leagues, and pro teams that all eventually roll into the IJF towards the global tournaments and ultimately, the Olympics.
It's a massive system that is globally supported and run, with deep analytics (believe it or not) via the IJF. And just because leg grabs (singles and doubles specifically) are restricted, BJJ and MMA basically say, "Oh yeah, Judo is useless." Pretty asinine, IMHO. That's just two throws in a field of 1000 variations of the rest of the judo canon.
Just to add, I can't think of a single Olympian in judo who won off a single leg or blast double, which is all BJJ people know (and are shitty at it). Judoka have won off modified fireman's carries (kata guruma) with leg grabs, but the modern alternative (non-leg-grabby version) is just as good.
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u/Economy_Weakness_507 May 10 '25
I agree. There's not a solid pipeline funneling Judo athletes into MMA, like BJJ or Wrestling, or a culture to support said pipeline. I also think the IJF's ruleset isn't holistic to an overall grappling skillset. But Judo is one of the most solid grappling forms out there. The main criticisms being reliance on gi and no leg grabs are both overrated in my opinion, but I see the disconnect when it comes to MMA specifically. But things change when instead of a soft padded surface, it's concrete and there's no referee.
Judo only has a fraction of the sample size in MMA compared to basically any other style or base, let alone BJJ and Wrestling. But we've seen it work in MMA on a high level. Notably Fedor, Karo, and Islam. Islam used several classic Judo techniques to counter Arman's fantastic wrestling.
I've said for the longest time that it's not really the style itself anyways, but the individual and what they're able to do with said style.
Regardless, I agree with you. It may just be an American thing, or an MMA culture thing, but Judo doesn't get enough credit for how absolutely vicious it can be.
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u/Comfortable-Idea-396 May 14 '25
I would argue it's purely western elitism when looking at an eastern martial art. I will also add that USA Judo is horribly run and they don't know wtf they're doing so they do the community zero justice.
But if any BJJ black belt goes to Japan, South Korea, France, Germany, to try and puck up Judo... I don't think they'll have a good time. As Khabib says, it's just something else. There is a reason why judoka have high BMD (bone mineral density) compared across all other sports in the world. The constant impact for decades ends up building amazing bone strength, and thus ligament and overall kinetic chain strength in the long term. Since BJJ guys never do standup to this degree, it will literally be a shock to their system when they train with high school kids from any of the European or Asian countries with a functional judo curriculum and system.
As someone who trained at Tenri University, Judo really is something else.
Source:
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u/ClashRoyaler1111 May 11 '25
Khabib alone inflated judo respect by like 50% in the mma community by saying "I love freestyle wrestling but judo is different level" and glazing judo
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u/Dense_fordayz May 09 '25
I don't really see where OP was alluding to no gi judo being a pure sport? I think you missed what they were saying.
They were saying can it be used for no gi sport and self defense. Nothing about no gi judo being it's own sport.
To OPs question, yes no gi judo can and is used in sports with no gis. Mma, BJJ, wrestling, sumo
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u/Rich_Barracuda333 yonkyu May 08 '25
I’ve not heard of no-gi judo being a seperate entity, however it can definitely be seen in some no-gi BJJ and in the UFC, especially from some of the higher ranked contenders.
You can also see in theory how certain grips/throws would work without a gi, for example ippon seoi nage, or the underhook variation of tsurikomi
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u/Judotimo Nidan, M6-81kg, BJJ blue III May 08 '25
Why would no gi sparring be better for self defence? Most of us if not all of us wear clothes most of the time.
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u/Kataleps rokkyu + BJJ Purple May 08 '25
A vast majority of the population has 2 arms, 2 legs and a head. Clothes won't always match the feel and build of a Judogi. There's no harm in changing contexts from time to time.
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u/flipflapflupper i pull guard May 08 '25
Submission wrestling / nogi BJJ? Sure there are guard pullers but plenty of wrestling battling it out too.
Greco wrestling might not hit the spot but as a pure sport I think its the closest.
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u/bossgunner May 09 '25 edited May 10 '25
The substyle freestyle judo has a no-gi category. There's a list of its locations at http://www.freestylejudo.org/ifja/ . Ronda Rousey, for example, established an explicit freestyle judo program in Los Angeles. Please be warned though that a program or few in that list are part of the public school system, similar to wrestling. Please also be happy though to know freestyle judo is more permissive than sport sambo.
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u/Designer-Issue-6760 May 09 '25
Yes. There’s two different rule sets for competitive judo. Olympic, which were all familiar with. And freestyle. Which is old school judo. Closer to how it was played 30-40 years ago. There is also a no-GI division.
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u/ExtraTNT shodan (Tutorial Completed) May 09 '25
Only no gi judo i know is some idiot randomly attacks on the street… sasae is somehow extremely effective, and sasae is a weakness of mine -> can’t hit it in training… always fuck up the timing really badly…
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u/shinyming May 09 '25
Nah not really. Gi was invented literally for judo techniques to work.
Taking a step back though, I see no need for judo apologists to say “judo works without a gi.” The gi already has plenty of self defense applicability. I also don’t see the measure of a sport’s value whether it works in the UFC.
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u/HeadandArmControl May 08 '25
It’s funny that there is no gi BJJ and it’s nearly as big but there isn’t no gi judo
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u/1stChokage May 08 '25
Haha wow. I'm actually so happy that this demographic of no gi judoka dosen't exist. The emergence of the no gi BJJtheists was a bad enough trend.
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u/ZardozSama May 08 '25
Formally no, but I think that Greco Roman Wrestling comes closest; same focus on trips and upper body throws and takedowns, and uses pins to win. No submissions though.
END COMMUNICATION
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u/ColdReflection3366 May 08 '25
There isn't trips in greco roman because touching your opponents legs in any capacity for the takedown is prohibited. Idk what youre talking about
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May 08 '25
Why does everyone here go bananas any time someone says Greco Roman is the no gi Judo?
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u/THE_BONK_ ikkyu May 08 '25
Because A: wrestling doesn’t have submissions or guard play B: Greco Roman wrestling specifically doesn’t allow ANY contact to the legs. This means no osoto gari, ouchi gari, anything like that. C: For lots of reasons Judo is tiny in the United States compared to the wider grappling community, and reductive statements like that further push the idea that people shouldn’t do judo because x,y, or z is “basically judo without the gi”
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May 08 '25
Jesus Christ, somebody's got a chip on their shoulder.
I'd argue that submissions and guard play in judo are a joke compared to the modern submission grappling arts. Furthermore, tripping is significantly less useful without a gi, which is why you rarely see it in freestyle/folk wrestling and nogi bjj.
And although Greco Roman is not exactly Judo without a gi, I have yet to hear of a better analog.
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u/Economy_Weakness_507 May 08 '25
I personally have always just thought of Judo as GR but with trips, foot sweeps, and submissions. Labeling no gi Judo as "Greco Roman" without any caveat is a bit of a stretch in my opinion, all things considered.
I wouldn't call Judo's guard play and subs a "joke." But it's for sure underdeveloped compared to their BJJ counterpart, which is just an offshoot of Judo.
Same way I wouldn't call a wrestlers submission defense a "joke", or a BJJ player's take downs and take down defense a "joke."
It's highly contingent on the individual. Every sport has dweebs and Spartans. Grappling is grappling at the end of the day and there WILL be carryover between each of them, it's really just the sports specific focus, ruleset, and outfit that can change things.
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May 08 '25
There is literally no wrestler's submission defense. And I say this as someone who grew up wrestling in the midwest.
As a purple belt in BJJ, I'd definitely say that BJJ players' take downs and defense are a joke unless they have specific training in wrestling or judo.
I don't think that GR is nogi Judo, but it's the closest thing to it. Judo is so dependent on the gi that such a thing as nogi Judo doesn't exist at this time.
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u/Economy_Weakness_507 May 08 '25 edited May 08 '25
I wasn't really thinking that wrestling had any formal method of submission defense per say, more so in the sense that I often times watch blue and purple belts really struggle to get anything off against former wrestlers. Those guys have a fantastic pace and mentality. They also typically have a lot more mat time and general control which I feel helps them avoid submissions tremendously (usually after getting guillotined on a takedown attempt a couple times tho).
I think we're starting to see a small culture shift in BJJ, personally. A lot of practitioners nowadays seem to refuse to pull guard and a lot of these no gi classes (at least ones I experienced) have this hybrid blend of a Wrestle-Jitsu thing going on. They're training for a specific ruleset. I think a lot of these guys have some pretty decent wrestling and judo for bjj. I don't think they could win a wrestling or judo match with those skills, but it's all relative. It's like GSP. Some of the best wrestling for MMA ever. But he wouldn't be able to make ANY Olympic team in wrestling considering where he was in life when he started hyper focusing on wrestling.
I think Judo being too dependent on the gi is an overrated argument, in general. I think the lack of a pipeline connecting Judo athletes to MMA and to make Judo fully embody a no gi training method, like BJJ has, is mainly an issue of culture and the IJF making their ruleset less holistic to an overall grappling skillset.
Just my 2 cents!
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u/Kataleps rokkyu + BJJ Purple May 08 '25
O Uchi Gari / Inside Trip scores a lot and appears a lot in Folk and Free, so idk what you're talking about.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu May 08 '25
You don’t have to argue that our groundgame isn’t as strong as something like BJJ, but it’s not far from something like Catch Wrestling, and it’s better than Sambo and other mainstream Wrestling styles.
To say that trips and sweeps are useless without the gi though is crazy though. BJJ and no-gi guys can’t get enough of them.
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May 09 '25
Trips and sweeps aren't uselss without a gi, but they are way way less of a threat without a gi. Can you think of any nogi analogs for most of the judo trips/sweeps?
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu May 09 '25
The naming and terms aren’t as clear cut as Judo, but the moves exist
O-Uchi Gari= Inside Leg trip Ko-Uchi Gari= Inside footsweep Sasae/Hiza Guruma= very common Muay Thai dump O-Soto Gari= no name, but you see this a lot in MMA from Petr Yan and various Russians. Jon Jones too. Ko-Soto gari/Gake=Outside trip
All the footsweeps get called just footsweeps.
Those are all the common Judo foot attacks and unsurprisingly they work like a charm in no-gi.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu May 08 '25 edited May 09 '25
Because it’s not correct and the foot attack dynamic changes a lot.
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u/only_1ce May 08 '25
Jflow teaches the mma guys no gi judo.