r/judo • u/k8aad sandan • May 14 '25
Competing and Tournaments What's the most OP judo throw in competition? (low risk, high reward)
Curious to hear your thoughts — in your opinion, what’s the most overpowered judo throw in a competition setting?
I’m not talking about the fanciest or most technical, but something that checks these boxes:
- Not super hard to pull off
- Relatively low risk of counters
- High reward (clean ippon potential, high scoring, or demoralizing)
Basically, a move that feels like a cheat code when you get it right.
Does it vary by weight class or style? Any “meta” throws you’ve noticed in local or high-level comps?
Looking forward to the debate 👀
EDIT 15-5: Coming sunday (18-5) I'm having my first competetion. After carefully reading all comments I'll be spamming:
-Osoto makikomi
-De ashi barai
EDIT 2 18-5: I'll be posting some clips after the competition in a new post :-)
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u/Crimsonavenger2000 sankyu May 14 '25
Probably Seoi Otoshi, but that's mostly due to the ruleset imo.
If people were more well versed in newaza (or at least more willing to go into it) and the transition from tachi waza to newaza wasn't as drastic (leg grabs, back on the tatami etc) it would be punished a lot more.
It's already much better rhan it used to be though
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u/Major_Chimpsky May 14 '25
I'd love it if fully prone was considered pinned, partly cause of how much seoi otoshi is abused.
To quote the great chael sonnen: "there is nowhere in life where your toes, knees, chest and penis can be on the mat, and you're acting like you're defending yourself."
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u/finanzbereich345 May 14 '25
Any link to the source of that quote? I'd be interested to hear the context around it from the man with the biggest arms in West Linn Oregon himself
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u/Major_Chimpsky May 15 '25
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DJmlDmqRI1r/?igsh=NXRjanlsdDY1c3h6
He was not talking about judo but I liked the quote
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u/JudoKuma May 14 '25
I love this because I am much much much better on ground than standing and I have many transitions from opponents seoi otoshi attempts to newaza, depending on our angles/positions and if they managed to pull me down a bit or not. For example of course the classic roll to bow and arrow, or transition to koshijime..
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u/eliechallita bjj May 14 '25
Judokas coming into BJJ learn that lesson very quickly: A bad seoi otoshi can very quickly turn into a good choke
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u/small_pint_of_lazy May 14 '25 edited May 14 '25
I'm a little rusty on the current interpretation on this, but I still remember when they took more of the risk out by making it illegal to go straight for arm locks and chokes after blocking a seoi otoshi. You'd still be in tachi waza where those are illegal techniques yet your opponent would be safely in ne waza. Such a bullshit rule change (though I can understand the safety aspect). This change basically made both my seoi otoshi counters as well as my most scoring ne waza technique illegal all in one go. As if taking away my te guruma wasn't enough...
Edit: Dear god it was difficult to find the current rules. For those who don't remember, this was a rule about 10-ish years ago but has since been changed back to how it should be. For a brief time, you were not allowed to do shime waza or kansetsu waza from a situation where you were left standing after blocking the opponents seoi otoshi. I should know, I was rewarded with a hansokumake for it. So feel free to punish your opponent for bad drops
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u/Otautahi May 14 '25
This isn’t a rule
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u/small_pint_of_lazy May 14 '25
You telling me I can once again do my choke while standing behind my opponent after their failed seoi otoshi?
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u/Otautahi May 14 '25
I don't think your interpretation of the rules is correct.
At any rate, you need to block the seoi attack so you're not scored against, make it clear that your opponent is in ne-waza (ie no continuity into another attack or transition back to standing). Then you're fine to continue the attack with shime-waza or kansetsu-waza.
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u/small_pint_of_lazy May 14 '25
Took me some 20 minutes to find the current rules about this (someone link me the official ijf document on the current rules if you can find it please) but this has been changed bacl to how it should be.
My explanation on the situation was absolutely not the best, but this used to be a rule (possibly only on paper) and I was penalised myself for having continued too fast from my opponents seoi otoshi to kansetsu waza some ten years ago. It's also possible that it was never meant to be a rule and the rules left too much space for interpretation, but all I know is that it felt absolutely stupid to get a hansokumake for such a great place to roll into an arm lock
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u/small_pint_of_lazy May 14 '25
I believe the issue is not in my interpretation of the rules, but instead how I'm describing the situation. However, at one point you were not allowed to continue to shime waza (or kansetsu waza) while still standing, unless you made it clear that you had transitioned to ne waza as well. When I was personally penalised for that, the referee told me, that I am in tachi waza for as long as I'm still standing. So just blocking and attacking an opponent that is on their knees is not enough and I'd have to either get on my knees as well or have them get their hands on the tatami as well.
What I'm now wondering is, if this is still the case, or have they realised that this is absolutely bonkers as a rule and have changed it. It's been a few years since this happened so I'm hoping
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u/judo1234567 May 15 '25
As with all of these situations I suggest that rather than poorly worded explanations a video of the exact situation is much more helpful
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u/small_pint_of_lazy May 15 '25
Oh absolutely, but as the situation is rather niche, and the conversation isn't really of any real importance, I didn't see the value in spending too long to try to find a similar situation. I've seen the technique once in high level competitions, though from a different situation, but still. If it was a more common situation, I would have most likely included a video
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u/Highest-Adjudicator May 14 '25
Uchi-Mata is actually a very good technique on the risk-reward scale currently. Difficult to be punished with the current rules—it is more difficult to be scored against due to sukashi, and te garuma is still not allowed. Plus it is easy to score yuko and Uchi-mata usually gets more generous scores than many other techniques due to how good it looks.
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u/Fickle-Blueberry-275 May 14 '25
Feels like this really is more of a ''high-level'' competition answer - even then drop-seois are still the better answer cus they're so abuseable to get out of bad grips (compared to uchi mata).
At high-intermediate (so still blackbelt, just not top-national/international level) in my country there's 20 drop-seoi guys for every uchi mata guy. Just because uchi mata is actually alot harder to set up/execute - you can't just halfway grab a sleeve and go for it like you can with seois.
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u/Highest-Adjudicator May 14 '25
For sure, it’s an advanced throw. And drop throws will probably always be low risk. But they aren’t particularly high reward and everyone already commented that—I figured giving something less obvious would be more helpful.
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u/k8aad sandan May 14 '25
I’ve been watching some high-level competitions, and it feels like 75% of the winning throws are uchi-mata
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u/fleischlaberl May 14 '25 edited May 16 '25
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u/Highest-Adjudicator May 15 '25
That graph gives a false impression because of how many different techniques get lumped into certain categories.
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May 15 '25
[deleted]
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u/Highest-Adjudicator May 15 '25 edited May 15 '25
I don’t appreciate your implication that I don’t have knowledge or experience just because I pointed out a flaw in your data. The Japanese “seoi-otoshi” is not actually one technique. Ask any high level Judoka and they will tell you it’s nonsense. It is such a broad name that multiple unique throws count as a “seoi-otoshi”. When the data is collected based on these definitions, it gives the impression that it’s the number one scoring technique by a huge margin when in reality it is just several techniques masquerading as one. Realistically, O-uchi Gari is the top scoring throw, and Uchi-Mata second.
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May 15 '25
[deleted]
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u/Highest-Adjudicator May 15 '25
I understand that you are referring to the official definitions. I’m telling you the official definition of “seoi-otoshi” is nonsense. Ask anyone who has been a high level competitor. The official definition is based on the finish of the throw, not the actual technique. There are many instances where tai-otoshi, drop seoi, and “seoi-otoshi” are considered one and the same. Very few dojos actually use the name “seoi-otoshi” when showing techniques.
This is because the exact same technique could be called “seoi-otoshi”—or not—based only on how the throw was finished. Everyone who does drop seoi knows that springing up vs staying on the knees depends on what your opponent does to defend. Sometimes you intend to spring up, but the opponent’s reaction requires you to finish with a roll to get a score, or vice versa.
I have heard Neil Adams call a throw a “beautiful tai-otoshi” and then moments later have to take 30 seconds to explain how the “beautiful tai otoshi” was somehow actually a “seoi-otoshi”. He knows that the tori was doing a tai-otoshi and the way the throw was finished just so happened to meet the overbroad definition of “seoi-otoshi”.
I personally do not care in the slightest how Judo intellectuals and theorizers want to define throws—as long as they stay in their lane. It makes no difference in competition. That’s the beauty of competitive Judo—it doesn’t matter what people on the outside say or think, the things that actually work will be taught and used. Period. But when these flawed definitions are used in data collection to paint a picture to those who are wanting to use data to improve competitively, it becomes a problem.
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u/MagicGuava12 May 14 '25
It wouldn't even be a judo throw of my knowledge. It is something called a whip over.
Basically, it is a strong side shallow underhook with a traditional sleeve grip on the weak side. And all you do is try to do a really crappy tai otoshi with a lot of space. Think a russian wrist snap combined with an underhook tai otoshi.
This is one of the most spammable moves you can possibly do with very poor position. And virtually no risk at all of the counter, because you're so far away. If you just crank it three or four times and keep spinning in a circle, they will lose footing, and you'll get the dumbest throw ever. As they go to recover, you can also get a deeper under hook and an Ogoshi, follow up with a tai otshi, or transition to some sort of footsweep.
https://youtube.com/shorts/H7KrRVPUHCE?si=8Jd3TlJ_NlUjqJcW
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u/Which_Cat_4752 ikkyu May 14 '25
I'd say it's uki otoshi. Mongolian Bokh and Chinese wreslting have this move. And they don't mind the uke just fall on their face because their rule award scores to the front landing fall.
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u/The_One_Who_Comments nikyu May 15 '25 edited May 15 '25
Is one of those links EYGM? It really is the lowest risk throw I can think of. Well, except for the risk that your knee will hate you.
Edit: this is the one I was thinking of. Same thing, but dropping to your knee on the outside. Like the opposite of drop taio. https://youtu.be/C1rE2CWyCKE?si=yMkK04-6-C7Yc09K
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u/Historical-Nail9 ikkyu May 14 '25
Very interesting. I've done under hook taio and ogoshi before, but I've always found it hard to get that under hook in the first place. I wonder if it would be as effective if you got a low back/belt grip instead of underhook
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u/euanmorse sandan May 14 '25
De ashi barai - all you need is timing.
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u/RoboFeanor May 14 '25
Got it, kick wildly at the shin whenever your opponent is static
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u/LX_Emergency nidan May 14 '25
I mean..that's how most comp judoka I've sparred with do it....
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u/ukifrit blind judoka May 15 '25 edited May 15 '25
I sometimes use de-ashi as a means to know where uke's feet are.
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u/Ok_Raise_9313 May 14 '25 edited May 14 '25
Joke all you want, but I had a training partner coming from french boxing (savate) and his hiza guruma was an oblique kick. Kicked my knee a few times before I told him to correct it.
Edit: I didn’t react the first times he did it because I was also training savate at that time and I understood where he was coming from. I let it slide thinking he is getting carried away in randori.
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u/moormie May 14 '25
yea no bullshit my partner trains mma and i walk out feeling like i got calf kicked 20 times
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u/ukifrit blind judoka May 15 '25
Just wait for them to start walking and sweep. If I can hit it, you can too.
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u/d_rome May 14 '25 edited May 14 '25
It's hardly a debate. Factually speaking, it's Seoi Otoshi. No other throw scores with as much frequency as Seoi Otoshi across all weight classes on the IJF World Tour.
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u/Josinvocs ikkyu May 14 '25
I would say sumi gaeshi, you just need to get that grip. Even if you cant you can still throw fom standard sleeve and lapel grip.
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u/Uchimatty May 14 '25
Diagonal ouchi. You can enter and even finish from a great range of positions, it’s impossible to counter unless you really suck because you create space as you do it (very unusual for a top scoring technique), and it’s very easy to chain with o Soto, kouchi and uchimata. Additionally many people’s instinct is to try to counter with tani otoshi, but that only works against ouchi going the traditional direction. I’ve won tons of matches just by following those people down and landing on top of them. This move also works surprisingly well against bigger opponents. Most of my scores when I fight up at +100 are diagonal ouchi.
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u/judoclimber May 15 '25
I'm unclear about this 'diagonal ouchigari', can you provide a video example of this, or more details?
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u/The_One_Who_Comments nikyu May 15 '25
Not the guy the asked, but here, at 1:18 https://youtu.be/WOtrX2DCr34
Basically, you push uke over their supporting leg, instead of the one you hooked. Usually you have to do a ken ken finish.
Also many examples in this hanpan video (I think) https://youtu.be/FSO7SCF3Lac The subtitles keep covering the footwork lol.
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u/IlIlllIIIlllllI shodan May 14 '25
Ouchi gari!!!
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u/Rakleon1001 May 14 '25
Ouchi gari entry to any other leg trip is my absolute go to in BJJ. Anytime i hit a successful Ouchi, I jizz in my pants.
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u/Historical-Pen-7484 May 14 '25
I haven't looked at the data in a while, and there has been rule changes as well as trends since the last time I looked, but when I examined the statistics during a course for my masters it became a trend where two throws stood out at the national and international level. The uchi mata and the seoi nage. Neither of them tick all the boxes, as seoi nage carries some risk, and uchi mata is a little hard to pull of.
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u/Plastic-Edge6917 May 14 '25
Check how David Garcia Torne enters his opponents' space, and then perform a tani otoshi. It's like telling an adult to sit the fuck down, and they can't do anything about it.
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u/efficientjudo 4th Dan + BJJ Black Belt May 14 '25
It doesn't work like that - if it did everyone would just be doing that one throw.
There is no one OP throw in Judo, there are certainly throws you see more in competition, and one in the top 10 is probably what you should base your game around.
Ultimately the best throw is the one you're best at.
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u/k8aad sandan May 14 '25
Just to clarify — I hold a 3rd dan and I’m very familiar with a wide range of techniques, and of course I have my personal favorites.
That said, I’ve never competed before, and now that I’m looking to step into actual competition, I’m genuinely curious:
Which throws tend to work well in realistic, live matches?
Not just what's beautiful in kata or randori, but what reliably gets the job done under pressure.15
u/Haunting-Beginning-2 May 14 '25
How can you be a third Dan and never competed? In my country you have to compete to earn a black belt. That said now there’s a kata stream that presents a way forward, in kata competitions.
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u/k8aad sandan May 14 '25 edited May 14 '25
In my country it's only needed to do kata's and show techniques nage waza and ne waza for 1-5 th dan.
On an extra note: Its even possible for Dan 1, 2, 3. To skip some kata's by earning points doing competetions
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u/Otautahi May 14 '25
Wow - that’s wild. Do you do much randori? You’re gonna either love or hate modern gripping.
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May 14 '25
Brah that's wild. I thought the whole point of a judo black belt was that they fought for it.
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u/Froggy_Canuck ikkyu May 14 '25
Nope, you can demonstrate commitment, understanding and love for judo without going nuts in shiai. In Canada you can test for shodan on the points system without having competed. It will get you the requiree points faster, but you are not obligated to compete.
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u/k8aad sandan May 14 '25
No it's not (at least not for me and the country I live in). The point is you perfect the techniques and understand the roots and meaning of judo.
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u/Froggy_Canuck ikkyu May 14 '25
In Canada, well Quebec at least, you don't NEED to compete to have a black belt. It will give you more points on your brown belt to get there faster (100 points to do the exam for shodan). But you can basically attend class regularly and work on your judo and get 25 points a year and test after 4 years. More point if you participate in tournaments, win in shiai, volunteer, coach, etc.
Some do judo because they like the sport and are committed to it without the need for shiai. The system recognizes this.
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u/jperras shodan May 14 '25
Those points rules are changing this summer (Judo Canada).
After July you will be capped at a maximum of 50 points for time-in-grade, so you can’t simply wait around for 4 years to accumulate the necessary points.
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u/Which_Cat_4752 ikkyu May 14 '25
Thank god they capped it. I've seen some crappy brown belt came back to judo and get their shodan just because they've waited a long time (during COVID). I'm a relatively old hobbyist too so I appreciate that not everyone can compete regularly but I think there should be some quality control on the shodan.
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u/Froggy_Canuck ikkyu May 14 '25
Good to know! But how will the other points be tabulated? I know they changed the competitive stream where you now have to take the kata test anyways, but I'm just wondering.
I do compete, but not often (hobbyist) and recently got my assistant coach certification, so just trying to figure out how to accumulate my points.
Je suis un peu perdu dans le syllabus ahaha
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u/jperras shodan May 14 '25
The remaining points will need to be accumulated through competition (kata or shiai), refereeing, clinic/stage attendance, or volunteering for sanctioned events.
Competition (both kata and shiai) can potentially give you a lot of points, whereas the other avenues are like 5 points per event, max.
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u/efficientjudo 4th Dan + BJJ Black Belt May 14 '25
There is probably something more recent, but this post is probably a good place to start: https://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comments/r57avy/my_common_techniques_by_weight_and_gender/
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu May 14 '25
Do you do much randori? You can quickly filter through all the techniques that work best- especially for you.
But there's a whole lot more to competition than just knowing the techniques.
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u/dazzleox May 14 '25
If you're a sandan, you know what throws work for you. I assume you have 10-20 years of Judo in, no?
You build a game around complimentary techniques... a lot of people go uchimata + ouchi gari + tomoenage for the push pull and feints. Others the drop seio + kouchigari + kouchi makikomi route. Some people are sutemi waza + newaza players. I've seen people very into one handed judo, lots of Korean seoi nage, Tai otoshi off the sleeve, etc. Our students from the former USSR like a lot of Georgian and Mongolian grip stuff, front uchimata, etc.
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May 14 '25
Osoto makikomi. Actually any of the makikomis, when you get that grip and you're a heavier fella, ain't nothing gonna stop the throw.
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u/Suomi1939 May 14 '25
Every time I’m partnered with a big guy, I know exactly what they’re going to try…even then, I feel like it’s hard to counter after they find their grips.
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u/InsaneAdam May 14 '25
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u/Froggy_Canuck ikkyu May 14 '25
Hey hey, I'm not lazy, I'm old! 😁
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u/InsaneAdam May 14 '25
Haha. I didn't give it that name.
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u/Froggy_Canuck ikkyu May 14 '25
Heheh I kid with you mate! I do rely too much on sutemi waza but then again I started in my 40s!
I once saw a dude here call yoko guruma "old man's ura nage" and it's one of my best throws ahahahah
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u/InsaneAdam May 14 '25
Got to use what works for you. Nothing wrong with staying with the tried and true.
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u/IAmGoingToSleepNow May 14 '25
Who's that high level Japanese woman - she just spams Tomoe Nage in to arm bar? Over and over.
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u/Sharkus316 May 14 '25
I used to be able to hit Ura Nage in competition a lot more than any other throw.
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u/Still-Swimming-5650 May 14 '25
Drop seoi
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u/Gman10respect nikyu May 18 '25
Man drop seoi is high risk, the risk of being choked from there is quite big and if they move of you they can force you on your back and they get the ippon
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u/NotoriousInFinit May 14 '25
I’ve won most of my tournaments with a well-timed tai otoshi. Even if you execute it somewhat badly, you have the upper-hand in newaza, atleast it worked for me.
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u/Jd18082000 May 14 '25
Ippon Seoi Nage - easily you can do it as a set-up for other throw or just drop them whenever you feel like your opponent is getting lazy
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u/Unable_Honeydew_6014 May 14 '25
Not necessarily a throw, but the collar drag is OP as fuck if all you want to do is get uke into ne waza. Otherwise maybe Sasae?
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u/KuzushiWhore May 14 '25
Every throw gets harder to pull off and more technical the better your opponents get. Rather than a specific throw, I think more in terms that certain grips are obnoxious as hell. For instance, if you can get a high collar grip, apply your weight and not burn out your grip, you can break someone down and make life a whole life easier, even if your opponent is technically better than you.
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u/Dayum_Skippy nikyu May 14 '25
It’s too bad we’re specifying ‘throws’ as yoko shiho gatame statistically meets the above criteria quite nicely.
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u/Sure-Plantain8914 May 15 '25
The cheat code is to find your advantage, what are you great at, what cant you be beaten in, you go too. Now practice like crazy, put yourself in the hardest of positions and get better and better at it.
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u/route-dist May 15 '25
Don't have an answer to your query, just curious, on a scale of 1 to 10, how much gaming do you do?
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u/jestfullgremblim Weakest Hachikyu May 16 '25
A lot of Ashi Waza and Sutemi waza maybe? But basically every Judo technique has counter play, learn it!
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u/Sure_Card_2103 May 16 '25
I would say Deashi, if you perfect it with timing it the very essence of judo - minimal effort max efficiency.
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u/AlmostFamous502 BJJ Black, Judo Green May 14 '25
“Low risk high reward” does not exist. Risk and reward are inseparable, anyone trying to tell you otherwise is trying to sell you something rather than accurately appraise it.
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u/beambeam1 May 14 '25
O-Soto Gari.
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u/Fresh_Criticism6531 gokyu May 14 '25
Not really Relatively low risk of counters, is it?
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u/EraTsun May 14 '25
Drop seoi, learning to do both side, it’s a really good technique to avoid passivity shido as long as your grips are strong
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u/beambeam1 May 14 '25
Maybe not for you?
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u/Fresh_Criticism6531 gokyu May 14 '25
I don't compete, but my son does, and I see osoto counters all the time .... most recently in his latest win
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u/beambeam1 May 14 '25
I'm guessing he's quite young? At junior level it is probably riskier since you will see kids attacking with a smaller repertoire of throws they know by that point. Eventually some contests end in O-Soto dance battle until one falls over.
For me, a well timed and executed O-Soto Gari is the low hanging fruit against heavyweights especially as they tire in the latter stages of a contest. Often results in a good score, difficult to counter and is often merely blocked if it is not a successful attempt. A well driven O-Soto Gari can also have some wow factor alongside the ippon.
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u/d_rome May 14 '25
I suspect you were voted down for how you responded, but I agree that O Soto Gari is a very low risk for counters when you are good at it. I think I've had my O Soto Gari countered 5 times over the past 15 years and it's my tokui waza.
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u/informativegu shodan May 14 '25
These questions never make sense because every Judoka will eventually build a system to get to their two, three, or four favourite throws. As you can see from the replies, everyone is answering differently.
If you're asking for low risk throws that don't get countered easily and you can spam on lower belts (or in BJJ), then you can't do much better than Sasae. It's a good opener, it let's you evaluate the person's reactions, and it's low risk since you don't have to commit too much (and don't expose your back).
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu May 14 '25
On the other hand, every judoka will come to gravitate towards one of two particular techniques, if not have it as part of their system.
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u/jonahewell sandan May 14 '25
Not super hard to pull off
Relatively low risk of counters
High reward (clean ippon potential, high scoring, or demoralizing)
Such a throw does not exist, there is no cheat code, stop looking for short cuts.
You can make a technique your own "go to" by practicing it everyday, with or without a partner, and being in excellent physical shape. Kobe Bryant used to get up everyday and make 1000 shots before his "normal" practice schedule. If you get up and do 1000 rubber band uchikomis before your regular practice schedule, you will almost certainly have a huge advantage over someone who is not doing that.
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u/Quirky-Yoghurt-274 May 14 '25
Drop seoi nage is the most spammed op bullshit at lower weight classes