r/judo • u/Eastern-Swordfish776 • Jun 07 '25
Other What’s your unpopular opinion on judo
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u/luke_fowl Jun 07 '25
I might get crucified for this, but that judo needs to focus on its martial roots and not just the sports aspect of it. I'm all for the sports of judo, but I see too many people "gamify" it and do things that would in fact be dangerous for yourself outside of a sporting context. The sport should serve the martial aspect, not the other way around. This was why Jigoro Kano created judo, and the peak that a lot of the pioneers strived for, a lot of us nowadays have forgotten that.
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u/Lucidonious Jun 07 '25
To spin off this, i get that its pointless to learn throws that involve leg grabs for sports context but man....looking at old fight vids....some of those were fucking class
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u/Username_St0len Jun 07 '25
i love this, but mainly because i try to do judo throws in wrestling, where leg attacks are the default and bread+butter. but its always fun to send my oppenents flying or falling when they least expect it. sadly, every drilling partner i have in the room are very aware of me trying funny throws and always block or counter. i need to work on better nogi set ups. any advice?
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u/superman306 Jun 08 '25
Transition from lower to upper body. The YouTube channel EarnYourGoldMedal is a goldmine (pun not intended) for this.
As perhaps the most fundamental example of this, here’s a classic Kolat video where he demonstrates hitting an O-Goshi off your opponent reacting to your sweep single with a hard whizzer:
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u/IlVeroDominico Jun 07 '25
upper body throws work especially well when you can transition seamlessly between lower body and upper body attacks.
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u/Fancy_Librarian4514 Jun 07 '25
I could not agree more !
We have started to bring them back where I play.
( I’m 55 and haven’t competed in 30 years I still find them a viable technique )
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u/PoopSmith87 Jun 08 '25
I have two.
To be crucified by non-judokas: It has the potential to be the greatest self-defense art.
To be crucified by judokas: The current rule set is rancid dog shite and results in a 10:1 ratio of looking like a game of assgrab vs looking like an actual combat sport.
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u/Mr_Hambre Jun 07 '25
I absolutely H A T E when in competition they play by Shidos. It's so boring
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u/gamerdad227 shodan Jun 07 '25
I have mixed feelings on this. Randori and Shiai are a great way to know if your judo works: that’s great for the art.
However, having done BJJ as well, I tend to think that throws which result in a bad ending position for Tori (roll-through, landing in back take, etc) should not score ippon because the point of the score is control. If the fight/match didn’t end at the throw, Tori would be at a disadvantage.
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u/Hemmmos Jun 07 '25
Ippon should be awarded for throws where your oponent thinks "Oh fuck" before hitting the mat
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u/Fit-Tax7016 nikyu Jun 07 '25
Yeah. I almost think Ippon should be given for throwing and landing in the dominant position.
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u/gamerdad227 shodan Jun 07 '25
Or at least retaining dominant position. So remaining standing or landing in top/control position, or immediate transition to mount/pin.
I see too many throws get ippon that, if it was BJJ (I know it’s not, but still), would result in a back take or immediate reversal by the uke. This includes using the roll through to “force” the ippon AND bad drop throws where Tori is fave down and uke lands face up right beside them.
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u/Fit-Tax7016 nikyu Jun 07 '25
Yeah totally... Fellow (former) BJJ player here.
I have actually had a score against me where the guy rolled through after I threw with drop seoi. On review they reversed the score and awarded him the wazari.
Even though I was on the wrong side of the decision, I applauded it.
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u/Fickle-Blueberry-275 Jun 07 '25 edited Jun 07 '25
I only halfway agree - throws should count if they land with dominant position OR with sufficient force. Either would be considered very effective in a real situation. Don't think you want to make people blast their bodyweight on other's in uchi mata etc.
That'd fix the two worst throws plagueing modern judo, drop seois and kata guruma's. Both are fine if they land with force but this awful ''running with it'' meta would stop (especially bad on kata guruma, where it's initial go is stopped and just turns into a zero-impact roll/walk over).
Nobody can claim a drop-seoi wouldn't be effective in a real life situation even if you end up technically exposing your back, if the actual throw itself has considerable impact.
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u/octonus Jun 07 '25
While I get your argument, I would still prefer to maintain a dominant posture post throw even if the fight is already over. From a purely martial perspective, getting stuck on the ground after a throw would be a disaster.
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u/octonus Jun 07 '25
I agree with this 100%
If you don't have a dominant position post-throw -> wazari at most
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u/IlVeroDominico Jun 07 '25
I'm a judo black belt with a purple belt in bjj. I've learned to adapt my seoi nage, koshi guruma, and uchi mata to a bjj context so back exposure is minimal. Just like any other skill it is learnable to make these throws safe, most people simply write them off rather than learning to adapt the skill under new conditions.
Simply being aware you need to maintain top position helps you adapt your landing. You wind up sort of generating the feeling of "I'm going to aim for a waza ari landing rather than ippon".
When I throw ippon seoi in a bjj context I focus on keeping their scapula pinned to the mat right after the throw and then I grab their head immediately. I dont know of anyone who could get back hooks in if you have control of their head and one of their shoulders pinned to the mat. Now just walk around to north south.
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u/misterandosan Jun 08 '25
that would result in athletes becoming more conservative in their throws and not committing fully to it. It would make matches far less interesting.
It's silly to adjust judo rules to suit a completely different ruleset.
any throw that result in a bad ending position can be adjusted for rulesets that require better positioning. It's not a big deal.
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u/noonenowhere1239 Jun 07 '25
Yep, the act of missing a throw so the competitor falls to belly down until the match is reset is ridiculous.
In any other context other than "sport" it equals severe bodily harm and or death.
I love that martial arts can be a sport, but the sport needs to stay true to the art and combat principles.
Grappling is already making enough concessions because we all agreed to exclude striking for the sake of continued practice.
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u/OsotoViking sandan Jun 07 '25
For self defence you'll likely never need more than a half-decent Osoto Gari. I've seen enough fights "on da streetz" to know that the vast majority of people can't fight . . . at all - most don't have enough balance to not fall over while throwing wild, ineffective haymakers. Any combat sport puts you leagues ahead of the average person.
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u/brawldo Jun 07 '25
It’s slowly but surely turning into Olympic style taekwondo which is not only useless but also horrible to watch because of the sport emphasis.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jun 08 '25
Not really. Have you been keeping up with the rules? We've been allowing a lot more things lately.
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u/IsawitinCroc Jun 07 '25
I agree with this 100% especially for self defense. I don't you need to be a black belt to defend yourself but goddamn at least within a year you should be able to both deescalate most altercations and use your judo skills against someone throwing hams. I'm not even saying you hurt the person that bad just be able to defend urself and them think twice.
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u/DibsMine Jun 07 '25
This, when in the military we taught "combat judo" I had years of sport judo before and it didn't change much but what it did change was brutal.
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u/euanmorse sandan Jun 07 '25
My friend and I have discussed this at length and came to the conclusion that we will just teach the whole of judo, not just competitive stuff. If people wish to work on competitive elements then they can do that at some of the other, more specific to competition sessions we offer.
Luckily he is from France and did the instructor training there so he had a much more developed knowledge base.
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u/Geistwind Jun 08 '25
I aggree 100%, and we are not alone. My Dojo pretty much have split training into traditional & sports, they do not recommend those that prefer traditional to compete, as so much is banned. I competed abit, but stick to traditional, and sports Judo practitioners miss out on so much.. I was a bit shocked when I realized how much they cut out for sport style, Kinzi waza as the forbidden techniques are called( tbh, my buds and I think its abit hilarious to learn " the forbidden techniques", like we are in a anime or whatnot 😅 )
Its not just happening in Judo either, TKD has a whole organization dedicated to traditional style, its happening in Karate types etc.
My competing days are over for me, I want to learn the traditional way of training.
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u/INFJdating Jun 07 '25
True that. I srsly consider switching to Sambo next year right after getting my blue belt
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u/J-F-D-I Jun 07 '25
I would say this for all arts! The rules of the sport allow it to be done safely/add fun etc - but that doesn’t mean you can’t “play” while being aware of the origins and aims of the art are for.
I do BJJ (at a school that puts a lot into standup/teaching what would now be considered judo) and I find it far more enjoyable and purposeful rolling while keeping myself protected from strikes - even when we’re not incorporating strikes.
But I guess as soon as you make competition, people will become obsessed by the end goal of a win. Meaningful or not.
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u/HeadandArmControl Jun 07 '25
BJJ has this same issue. Schools teach to the sport and not the martial art. There are so many common things that you wouldn’t do in a fight like butt scooting and even pulling guard (although that was effective in early UFCs you wouldn’t ever want to do that in the street).
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u/DangerousBullfrog164 Jun 07 '25
Roling over and ending in a more compromised position then your opponent after a throw is not ippon worthy.
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u/disposablehippo shodan Jun 07 '25
Why though? If you see it from a "real world application" standpoint, even if the other guy ends up on top of you, you just hit him with the pavement. That's the traditional reason ippon meant end of contest. And for sports reason: if this happens after ippon, it's most likely because Tori let it happen knowing it was ippon. And if there was such a rule, I'd just position my lapel hand in a way Tori will always end up in a choke after throwing me for ippon.
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u/ChainChump Jun 07 '25
The whole "hit them with the planet" idea sounds nice, but go watch some street fight videos. Sometimes it works, yeah. But from what I've seen, more often, a big takedown will slam someone HARD and they get straight back up.
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u/oddeo Jun 08 '25
I'm not doubting you, but I'd like a link to a few of these videos of someone getting up unscathed after being properly judo thrown. I've seen the compilation of judo throws in street fights that gets circulated around here every so often and none of those people were stirring a muscle let alone getting up.
Sometimes a hard fall on the tatami hurts bad enough that I don't want to get up, and I have good ukemi and my dojo has spring floors and like 2 inch mats. A throw on concrete is, without exaggeration, probably 10 times as damaging.
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u/ChainChump Jun 08 '25
Here are a few I quickly found:
https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetMartialArts/s/4ZmgEMFnan
https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetMartialArts/s/hfV5zlJUhc
https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetMartialArts/s/RI3uvPrCUA
https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetMartialArts/s/qTSrXnZpEW
Videos shared on the judo sub are always going to be biased towards judo ending a fight. Hell, videos shared online in general are biased towards impressive finishes. Most street fights don't include ippons, they're more messy and likely to be waza ari or just people falling/dragging each other to the ground. In randori you don't have the adrenaline to shake off a big hit like that.
I think it's fair to say that when grapplers end street fights, the vast majority do so via pin/sub/groundNpound. To have self defence applicable judo, you should be able to consistently pin from a throw, rather than roll off or end on bottom.
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u/jephthai Jun 10 '25
This 100%. The presumption of the fight ending throw is a delusion. Yes it can end the fight... but it often doesn't, even with a good throw.
Furthermore, many of the best throws in competition depend on some of the unique factors of sport judo. Perfect grips on the gi, and standard judo play on the part of uke, especially.
I used to repeat the "judo hits then with the planet" trope, but it was watching street fight videos that changed my mind. If the throw doesn't work, you'd better be still on your feet or in a good position to finish the fight.
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u/DangerousBullfrog164 Jun 07 '25 edited Jun 07 '25
A lot of times throws with roll trough risk not generating enough force (drop seoi nage for example). However if you aim to land on top not only will there be more impact but you will be in a safer position.
Ofcourse there are also throws with roll trough that will generate the neccisary force but its not a risk i concider worth taking.
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u/powerhearse Jun 07 '25
Hitting someone with pavement is not a guaranteed end to a fight, that's a common misconception in Judo.
And for sports reason: if this happens after ippon, it's most likely because Tori let it happen knowing it was ippon.
Nah, most of the time jt's because they commit so hard to the throw that they are physically unable to maintain top position. Hell, Uchi Mata variants are taught with the roll through an integral part of the variant
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u/Economy_Weakness_507 Jun 07 '25
It’s not always a fight ender but I wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of a properly executed judo throw with bad intentions on concrete
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u/TotallyNotAjay sankyu Jun 07 '25
Honestly loving this thread; my contribution is that I think parts of Ju no kata should be used for warm ups more— very good study of timing and yielding to force, and gets the body nice and stretched, also nage no kata style drills for waza should be more normalised, as it teaches movement theory and builds useful pattern recognition for randori in tandem with the throw [this is also how Kano writes to practice waza in Judo Kyohon, and seems more conducive to ecological approach(?)].
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u/Otautahi Jun 07 '25
When I trained in New York we would do sets of JNK for warm up - super enjoyable.
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u/d_rome Jun 07 '25
I love this. Hardly an unpopular opinion in my view. This would be loads better than cardio like pushups and sit-ups.
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u/MysticalMarsupial Jun 07 '25
There should be no-gi judo. Would save so much laundry...
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u/HistoriesFavoriteLib Jun 07 '25
I do a lot of Greco Roman (i didn’t in high school or college, I found the one adult wrestling gym in the US and wrestle near every day) wrestling and only recently started doing judo and no gi judo is cool in concept but you’d need some rule changes to make it make sense as a sport
The reason Greco Roman works as a sport is because you are forced to pressure into someone, I cannot possibly lat drop someone unless they’re trying to push me off the mat (which they get a point for doing) . I can’t belly to belly suplex someone unless their momentum carries them forward and up in the air once I get double under hooks
Judo replicates that pressure using the gi, instead of us both agreeing to a restricted ruleset where we have to be pushing forward and active judo people can grab gi the scream “get over here!” And use that as the forward pressure that the Greco rules create
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u/Massive-Prompt9170 Jun 07 '25
Disagree. With all the ashi waza and the directions that you can throw, no gi judo works generally fine. When standing up in no gi bjj, I find that all my favorite techniques work fine when the situation presents itself.
Greco Roman only needs these type of rules because it explicitly does not allow for ashi waza or leg grabs of any kind
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u/HistoriesFavoriteLib Jun 07 '25
Well I think no gi BJJ is a bit different because people in BJJ uh suck ass at upper body wrestling. Like I’m absolutely launching people during our ‘warm up’ wrestling rounds. But the ability to grab their legs is a big thing to, I can shoot make them sprawl and then launch them on a follow up as they stand back up from the sprawl but without leg grabs in judo it’s a bit weird.
We actually do a lot of “Greco with trips” , so basically no gi judo (and no ref to enforce action/ push forward) at our gym and it’s good to train with but I’m not sure how well it would work as a spectator sport because you’re going to generally lack the massive spectacular throws that Greco has.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jun 08 '25
Greco Roman does not even work half the time, its painful to watch because nothing happens.
And Judoka can create that forward pressure quite fine actually. Leg trips and sweeps are things you guys don't even think about but something we deal with. The way to defend them is to literally lean into it... and potentially into a forward throw.
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u/IM1GHTBEWR0NG Jun 07 '25
The training is dated and overly linear in most Dojos. Schools should have enough Ne Waza focus that a Shodan can hang with BJJ blue and purple belts decently, and just because leg grabs aren’t allowed in competition doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be prepared for in training. Judo is a martial art AND a sport, and should be trained for both applications across the board.
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u/MadT3acher sankyu Jun 07 '25
Unpopular opinion on this sub: making judo safer to be able to go 100% in competition and in training is completely fine and not everything is about self defence and killing other people.
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u/obi-wan-quixote Jun 07 '25
I actually think making it safer to go 100% in competition and training is exactly why Judo is so effective in self defense. Old school jujitsu had all the killing techniques, but because they couldn’t practice like judoka Kano and his boys trounced them.
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u/Sword-of-Malkav Jun 07 '25
it also just very impressive to be able to just lightly place someone on the ground no matter what they do back
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u/JaguarHaunting584 Jun 08 '25
the people who talk the most about self defense tend to be low level competitors if they compete at all. theres a reason you dont hear olympians speak extensively about it but some 30-40 something yr old podcasters do.
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u/obi-wan-quixote Jun 07 '25
I actually think shidos are a unique and good thing. Done right they preserve the martial aspect of judo. “Positive Judo” keeps players aggressive and attacking. It reduces “gaming” the match.
Imagine if boxing had a shido for someone getting on their bike or throwing tippy tappy at the last seconds to influence the judges? Or if Muay Thai had something to discourage the turn taking that happens where one fighter throws a combo and the other guy throws a combo. Or BJJ had a shido against butt scooting.
All sports are intrinsically games. But shidos are brilliant because they make the gamifying the match a thing that trains behaviors that would benefit a real fight.
I just wish they would apply a stalling shido when someone belly outs in newaza.
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u/CripplingDepressi0n4 gokyu Jun 07 '25
It's badly taught (generalization), meaning, improper teaching methods or explanations based on "feel" or tradition instead of scientific studies.
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u/Equivalent-Soup-1061 Jun 07 '25
Judo in US were taught badly. Somehow Americans assume judo outside of the US were also taught badly.
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u/teaqhs yonkyu Jun 07 '25
“More kuzushi” is what teachers say because they don’t really know how to put in words the details of the technique
Bending over is a legit move to prevent yourself from getting pulled around or to grip fight. You need to know how to apply it properly and what the drawbacks are. This isn’t taught explicitly, but the pros always bend over. Now if you ask this sub why a pro judoka bends over, a common response is, “we mortals cannot comprehend what the pros are doing. They are just so advanced.” It’s ok to just say “idk why they do that”
If you’re old enough to remember leg grabs, you are going to get destroyed by wrestlers if they bring it back. You miss your youth and your knees, but you will lose to young wrestlers. And no your lapel grip isn’t going to save you. Their speed is crazy. Young judokas will adapt, but not the guys 40+
Without the Olympics and IJF, national judo federations will die, and so will the sport. We are unique that our sport is unified with a single ruleset
Uchi mata and sumi gaeshi are gimmicky counters to a single leg. It will work a few times but a good wrestler will adapt. There is a reason why international wrestling coaches do not teach this as a defense despite them being in countries where judo is popular
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u/rtsuya Nidan | Hollywood Judo | Tatami Talk Podcast Jun 08 '25
Point 5 is because of the difference of the gi.
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u/GermanJones nikyu Jun 07 '25
Most people on on this sub don't know shit about Judo. Nevertheless, they always comment with the same opinion which was shown to be bad three times before already
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u/wowspare Jun 07 '25
100% truth right here. I seriously wonder if most of the commenters here even do judo.
Reading through some of the comments on the "critique my throw" or "critique my competition" threads is really mind boggling.
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u/invertflow Jun 07 '25
Is it good to get downvoted on this one? My opinion is judo should be a little less confident that they are somehow more about mutual benefit and welfare than other grappling arts are. Yes, there are lots of bad stories about unsafe or bullying practices at BJJ or wrestling gyms. But, I've also heard some bad ones about judoka, especially in the birthplace of judo, and I have personally seen good and bad behavior in both judo and BJJ gyms. Striving for mutual benefit and welfare is good, and an essential part of any grappling art, but judo isn't really on a pedestal here compared to others.
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u/Psychological-Will29 sankyu - I like footsies Jun 07 '25
maximum time to be at a certain belt rank to prevent sandbagging.
looking at you the 3 year continuous yellow belt.
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u/obi-wan-quixote Jun 07 '25
I’m a 30+ year brown belt. I’m not sure I agree. I don’t think I should be a black belt. I kind of don’t think I should really be brown anymore.
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u/powerhearse Jun 07 '25
Uh oh these are gonna be real unpopular!
Most Judoka who comment on leg grabs don't understand and have barely trained leg grabs. Also, banning them was good for the sport.
Most Judoka vastly overestimate the transferability of their game to no-gi. They also vastly overestimate its effectiveness against striking
Most Judoka commenting on its effectiveness in MMA have never seen the inside of an MMA gym
Most Judoka commenting on BJJ have never seen the inside of a BJJ gym
In relation to all of the above, all Judoka would benefit enormously from exposure to more of the above 4 points, for a huge variety of reasons
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u/Left-Newspaper-5590 Jun 07 '25
Head diving throws (mostly uchimata) aren’t penalized as much as they should be. They are incredibly dangerous off of mats and completely unrealistic outside of a dojo.
Throws that don’t finish with control of your opponent should never be given Ippon.
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u/gamerdad227 shodan Jun 07 '25
I said the same in another comment - 100% agree with this, especially 2. Looking at you, kouichi makikomi
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u/nervous-sasquatch Jun 07 '25
I can see throws that make you roll over and land on your back or put you in a position where someone takes your back, but what about roll through where you can roll up to your feet or knees?
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u/Uchimatty Jun 08 '25
Most people don’t have anywhere near the flexibility to land on their heads during forward throws, even when they try. There was a total of one player in all of judo history who did this a lot, and he had achieved the absolute peak of body mobility which even Inoue and Maruyama never reached.
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u/wowspare Jun 07 '25
As always with these types of posts, most of the responses are not unpopular at all...
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jun 08 '25
I cannot believe people actually think no-gi Judo is somehow unpopular.
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u/bjprev Jun 07 '25
Not allowing arm bars until brown/black is stupid.
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u/Apart_Studio_7504 ikkyu Jun 07 '25
Where does this?
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u/Exventurous Yonkyu Jun 07 '25
The Adult Novice division (anything below brown belt) at the competition I just went to don't allow armbars or chokes. This is in the US.
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u/_Throh_ sankyu Jun 07 '25 edited Jun 07 '25
Also not allowing chokes until brown/black
Edit: dont get the downvotes, I literally got DQ for it a few months ago lol
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u/Hemmmos Jun 07 '25
what? Where I trained they were allowed since yellow
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u/ejecuepefi Jun 07 '25
They taught me chokes like a week after I started
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u/Hemmmos Jun 07 '25
I mean we were strangling (or attempting to) each other in randori at white belt and we were damned kids. Yellow only applied to competitions.
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u/_Throh_ sankyu Jun 07 '25
Allowing it in your dojo is not the same as in competition. Got DQ for it a couple months ago.
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Jun 07 '25
What.... Wait what?!??!
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jun 08 '25
It greatly depends on region. We're fine to do them here in Australia, aside from specific novice contests designed to ease new people in.
Otherwise your given community tournament allows it.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jun 08 '25
I think because its being taken as a universal experience. Where I am in Australia, submissions are allowed.
I am on footage getting armbarred lol.
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u/Sherbert_Hoovered Jun 07 '25
In competition this is because you might have green belts and white belts in the same division and I don't want to be doing competitive armbars with a white belt.
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u/bjprev Jun 07 '25
White belts can arm bar in BJJ. So can kids. Never an issue.
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u/ReddJudicata shodan Jun 07 '25
Bjj generally doesn’t apply armbars as … enthusiastically as Judo.
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u/Capser616 Jun 07 '25
In Belgium and neigboring countries it is allowed in from the year you turn 16.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jun 08 '25
You are making this sound like a standard thing. Where I am I was getting my arm ripped off by a BJJ purple belt who competed with us orange belts.
The winner of my bracket was literally a BJJ blue belt who failed a tomoe nage and armbarred the deadliest dude in the division
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u/ImportantBad4948 Jun 08 '25
Judokas vastly over estimate their ability on the ground against BJJ or even wrestling.
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u/mega_turtle90 Jun 08 '25
This right here. As a BJJ Blue belt I've tapped out Judo Brown and Black belts with ease.
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u/IlVeroDominico Jun 07 '25
It doesn't make sense to train exclusively for IJF rulesets when most people who join Judo are not looking to become olympic champions; they are looking to learn self defense.
That said; I understand that competition, and training as if you do compete (even if ultimately you don't) increase skill acquisition much more quickly.
I also realize this mea s gyms will continue to focus their curriculum on sport rules even if a large percentage of the student body never competes.
So, a couple imperfect solutions:
Train for multiple rulesets, not just IJF.
Some proposed rule changes: ippon should only be awarded for high impact throws.
ippon should be awarded for high impact throws that land less than perfectly flat back.
Any non-high impact throw you must maintain top position for 3 seconds to score the throw.
Back takes should count as osaekomi.
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u/bibleasfirewood Jun 08 '25
(This comment will be directed at the SPORT of judo- I am not a martial artist, and those who I am speaking of are critiqued coming from the SPORT side of things. Thank you).
The ego in 50+ year old coaches in America needs to shrink dramatically. They are convinced they know what they're talking about, and it's honestly laughable. They have never won anything. Never made a splash internationally. Shit- they don't even have a subscription to JudoTV. How on EARTH are you supposed to run a competitive club if you don't even watch the sport that you're trying to coach??? They don't know the rules, and haven't known them since 2008.... It's embarrassing. And they have the audacity to try to correct (then lambast) a higher level player when they try to help? For free? Disgusting.
This whole "I know what I'm doing, I've been doing this before you were born" shit needs to stop. Because your technique was trash then, and it's even more trash now. You haven't done anything of importance in this sport, yet you wear your Candy Cane belt to bed at night.
Whenever I hear "I've been doing this for 50 years," I very quickly respond with "Yeah, well you've been doing it wrong for 50 years." You have ZERO results. Your club never comes in Top 3 at locals. And you have >30 students who you're swindling out of their hard earned money.
They are actively teaching throws that are not even close to being used in the meta. Yoko Wakare? Hane goshi? Come on, stop wasting time just to take these people's money. You only get a few hours a week... Don't waste it on bullshit static uchikomis and nagekomi of throws that were kicked to the curb in the 70's... Wake up and smell the coffee. The Kazakh, Georgian, Frenchman- they are all going to punish you for stepping in front of them with that nonsense in your arsenal.
There's a coach where I'm living right now that went to the Veteran World Championships in Las Vegas. Not really a major tournament. Not really that big of a deal. But he's old, so whatever. This man did not even have a back number on his gi... How are you supposed to run a competitive judo club when you are so horrifically unaware of the expectation at tournaments?
The worst part? There is no shame. There is no awareness to the sole fact that they have no clue as to what they're doing. Businessmen? Maybe. Judoka? No. Stop trying to pawn it off like you can take kids to the Olympic Games. You're lying to both your students/customers, and yourselves. You're a disgrace to the sport, the martial art, and the community.
Go wear your Candy Cane belt and think about what you're doing with your life.
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Tl;Dr Old guys who stand around and do nothing but call themselves "Sensei" need to lower their arrogance because they never did anything, and are pawning themselves off to be the ticket to the Olympic Games for aspiring children and young adults.
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u/kahleytriangles BJJ Black Belt / rokkyu Jun 07 '25
Unpopular opinion (here at least):
Judo people have a strange hang up regarding people who train bjj. I train at both, but at judo gyms, more often than not I get the judo is better than bjj talk. Whereas when a judo guy visits a bjj gym, it’s always “that’s awesome” and often get asked a ton of questions with take downs etc.
The reaction to bjj training is SO predictable that I don’t even mention it when visiting other judo schools at this point.
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u/quakedamper bjj purple/shitty judo white belt Jun 07 '25
This seems to be a weird western hangup to make eastern martial arts seem more mysterious. Here in Japan a lot of BJJ guys have judo background and some BJJ teams cross train with uni clubs . It’s just a matter of explaining the difference in rules and approach.
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u/Susuwatary rokkyu-Japan Jun 08 '25
Agree, also live in Japan. Most gyms I've been to usually low-key encourage those with a bjj background to teach newaza techniques or even older judo black belts are quick to encourage bjj concepts that may work in judo. Our dojo has a black belt from Tokai University encouraging the white bemts to learn baseball bat choke because its sometimes a pin counter.
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u/powerhearse Jun 07 '25
This is very true, and doubly true on social media like this sub
It's definitely getting better though. Negative experiences with BJJ guys coming over to Judo hasn't helped.
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u/gunfupanda bjj Jun 07 '25
Not sure if it's unpopular, but I think if you're flat on your belly, it should be osae komi.
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u/Any_Comparison_3716 Jun 07 '25
Too many lads are in it because of an Asian fetish.
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u/derioderio shodan Jun 07 '25
I met plenty of this type when I trained aikido, but not really in judo, tbh. Judo is so hard that people that don't enjoy the sport on its own merits don't stick with it.
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u/Ly-sAn Jun 07 '25
Funny in my judo club in France absolutely nobody cares about Japan (except for me) but when I practiced kendo it was like a weeb convention
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u/GwynnethIDFK Jun 07 '25 edited Jun 07 '25
That's the reason I stopped training kendo after two weeks. I thought it was a cool sport, but holy shit the other white people were weird af to the point it ruined the sport for me.
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u/Legitimate_Team_513 Jun 07 '25
As an outsider with mostly BJJ and wrestling background and who still trains at 42, I absolutely love the sport but am deathly afraid of really going for it because of injury. In standup gi rounds a couple years ago I got thrown, planted my arm and shredded my shoulder. Now I’m super hesitant to engage. But what an awesome sport. Badass
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u/BetunTriste5 gokyu Jun 07 '25
Well in any sport you could hurt yourself like that, I have seen injuries like that in rugby. Part of what I like about judo is learning how to take a breakfall and not hurting myself.
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u/SquareShapeofEvil shodan Jun 07 '25 edited Jun 07 '25
The martial art is tremendous, probably the most well rounded of all, but the sport is incredibly restrictive and frustrating. There’s a reason judo lost the “common man appeal” to BJJ.
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u/Riharudo Jun 07 '25
I understand that you're a middle-aged, divorced, single dad with a mid-life crisis and unchecked anger issues. But I'm also not 16 anymore, I need to go to work tomorrow and also I want to come to the next training session. So how about not making a light randori to be like your Olympics finale and do some ridiculous stuff (using mostly brute force) which could seriously injure both of us? Also, if you're a teen, with low self-esteem, rampaging hormones, and unchecked anger issues...
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u/In-To-The-abysss Jun 07 '25
More judoka should be encouraged to move to mma and more mma folks should be encouraged to get in to judo.
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u/woeterman_94 blue Jun 07 '25
I really like newaza better than tachi waza 🤷
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u/d_rome Jun 07 '25
My truly unpopular opinion is that removing leg grabs was good for the sport and if you think leg grabs would improve your Judo then your Judo sucks to begin with.
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u/powerhearse Jun 07 '25
With you on the first part but the second is utterly untrue in my opinion. Used to see exactly the same arguments against leglocks in BJJ haha
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u/obi-wan-quixote Jun 07 '25
I mostly agree but I miss being able to knee tap or kata garuma. My go to technique used to be using kouchi gari to feed the foot to my hand and throwing from there.
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u/Specialist-Alfalfa39 Jun 07 '25
No one is teaching it sadly. The techniques are dying. It must be brought back
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jun 08 '25
This thread has way too many 'unpopular opinions that are in fact popular'.
How does anyone think wanting no-gi is unpopular?
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u/d_rome Jun 08 '25
My unpopular opinion on No-Gi Judo is that people only think they want No-Gi Judo, but they aren't willing to support it to help grow it. In the United States it's been tried. Freestyle Judo did it for years at their tournaments. Not too many people supported it. USA Judo tried as well I believe.
The reality is that No-Gi Judo isn't going to draw anyone. The reason being is that to be good at No-Gi Judo you have to be good at Judo. The people who don't want to put in the work to be good at throws in a gi aren't going to show up to learn to be good at throws in No-Gi. I taught No-Gi Judo for years at two different clubs. Attendance starts off decent, but then it trails off because:
- It's still hard to do for beginners.
- Most people who care about getting good at Judo and at winning Judo comps don't care about No-Gi. It'll never draw the best athletes.
It's a gimmick that has no future and there isn't anything in No-Gi Judo that isn't already allowed in No-Gi BJJ. Do you really think a high amplitude throw as a match ender is going to draw people? It will always be a more restrictive version of No-Gi BJJ.
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u/Bitter_Counter_2556 Jun 07 '25
Stop talking about kuzushi. Just shut up about it, it's never productive. It's a concept that is really only descriptive in nature and there's been an absurd number of beginners misled by telling them they need "more kuzushi" when it's not something you can have more or less of. Your opponent is in a state of collapse/off balance or they aren't. It's a binary. For that matter SHUT UP with teaching people that to get kuzushi means to just pull the opponent or pull them harder. 99% of throws are positioning before anything else, a pull of your opponent is only just one single method of doing it and often not a very good one. I wasted so much time thinking I needed to just pull more to get my throws going instead of someone just telling me my positioning for the throw was off and it was never going to work from where I tried it. The example here being uchi mata RxR, not even getting into the nonsense version people get taught all the time attacking the opponents lead leg in that stance. Literal years of wasted effort trying to make a throw like that work when it would've been solved in 30 seconds by someone telling me "Yeah they either need to squared up with their hips back or in opposite stance for you to hit that" Instead I got told I needed to pull more, mind you pulling them into kenka yotsu would be solid advice. Was I told that? Nope, just generic advice of more kuzushi and harder pull.
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u/wowspare Jun 07 '25 edited Jun 07 '25
The mindless parrots who say "I would do Judo if it allowed leg grabs" were never actually going to seriously train Judo to begin with. If Judo allows leg grabs, they will just move the goalposts to something else, or they would train Judo for a short while and quit after getting a hard reality check that leg grabs really aren't all that they were hyped up to be.
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u/Fickle-Blueberry-275 Jun 07 '25
There's certainly a contingent of people who want leg grabs because they're.... easy. It's a hell of a lot easier as a beginner to try and grab some other beginner's leg and pull it out from under them - than to get anywhere near a turn throw.
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u/ZahryDarko Jun 07 '25 edited Jun 07 '25
Olympic Judo made Judo much worse. It is martial art and should be taught as.
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u/Izunadrop45 Jun 07 '25
It’s more than just kids who want to compete . Coaches need to stop flat out ignoring adult competitors . It’s why they lost a ton of ground to mma and bjj
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Jun 07 '25
People keep saying judo is one of the ultimate self defence martial arts cause throwing your opponent incapacitates them.
I actually think most judo throws might just disorientate an attacker for a bit short of maybe a strong osoto gari where you're straight up gonna kill the guy
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u/Kataleps rokkyu + BJJ Purple Jun 08 '25
Most senseis are horrible coaches. A Black Belt+ does not make you an expert in skill acquisition and practice design yet somehow it makes you an infallible authority. I understand the prevailing sentiment of not being a disruptive asshole in someone's dojo, but "trust your sensei" is a thought terminating cliche that makes learning this beautiful art more difficult than it should be.
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u/wowspare Jun 08 '25
Referees in international competition are way too lenient towards Japanese judokas when it comes to sacrifice throws and newaza. They tend to give more time to the average Japanese judoka to work their newaza compared to non-Japanese judokas, even in cases where the non-Japanese judoka enters a pin or submission right away and is being urgent with it.
Natsumi Tsunoda would not be able to get away with her non-continuity tomoe nages if she had not been Japanese. The rules clearly make it clear there must not be a pause in the throwing motion for it to be scored, but several of Tsunoda's tomoe nages with very obvious pauses in them get scored all the time.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jun 08 '25
Too many 'popular' opinions. I have something else.
Judo is not watered down. Like boxing, it has been distilled to its clearest essence. Judo is about throwing the shit out of dudes and wacking on fast submissions.
To introduce leg grabs, extensive ground work and god forbid strikes to the style again is to actually water it down. And all that for what? Its never going to be enough for people.
Boxing, Wrestling, BJJ and other great styles are good because they know what they are and focus on it. MMA and Combat Sambo are the ultimate nexuses for being well rounded, so why compete? Better to hone in on specific aspects of combat and create deeper wells of knowledge so that we can cross train and learn from each other.
Judo is not perfect and I would like some more changes. But otherwise its got its place and purpose.
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Jun 09 '25
This is a great post, I think this is just the same where ever you go. Lot's of people in r/bjj want to turn that sport into some all encompassing grappling style that can be all things to all people as well. Bjj excels at the study of ground grappling where you are allowed to fight off your back/the guard, it should emphasis that focus not try to be shitty wrestling. Judo should be the same with sweeps and throws.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jun 09 '25
People shit on guard pulling in BJJ... but screw it. Let it happen, why not just get to the meat of it? Thanks to guard pulling, BJJ has developed such interesting ideas and ways to fight from your back that we'd never figure out in Judo. Its an excellent skillset for self defence.
When I'm on the ground with BJJers, I'm always learning shit I'd never figure out in Judo training alone. The ones I like least are the guys that try to make some point about BJJ standup and end up stalling out or doing goofy sutemi waza.
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u/Judotimo Nidan, M6-81kg, BJJ blue III Jun 07 '25
Judo is doing really well everywhere. But not in North America.
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u/Tonic_G Jun 08 '25
Ippon should be awarded only when tori remains standing after the throw, in line with principles seen in sambo. Techniques such as drop seoi nage and sacrifice throws (sutemi-waza) should not result in ippon, even if executed with force and precision, when tori ends in a disadvantageous position, particularly when giving their back to uke. If both tori and uke fall to the ground, the match should continue in newaza, unless the throw clearly demonstrates full control and dominance.
Moreover, scoring an ippon with a single throw should be more difficult overall, to ensure it reflects a truly decisive action. This change would encourage more complete and technically dominant performances and reduce the frequency of ippon awarded for borderline situations.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jun 08 '25
It all sounds wonderful in practice, but as I understand it, the Absolute Victory rules in Sambo don't result in lovely throws.
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u/JudoKuma Jun 07 '25
Leg grabs should not be added back to judo, and if they did, they should yield no points but act only as transition to newaza.
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u/TipTheTinker Jun 07 '25
That randori should only be allowed from yellow belt and up. Too many injuries, caused or inflicted upon over excited white belts. Some higher belts also have very questionable ethics regarding how rough to go with people who've never done a martial art or contact sport.
I think there is much more value in a year's focus only on practicing statically. But by all means, get thrown. Just maybe not in randori.
I've been part of three dojos, keeping new talent is always an issue due to injuries
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u/GwynnethIDFK Jun 07 '25
I respectfully disagree. I was doing randori after about two weeks of training, starting with only going with black belts or above my first two sessions and then with everyone else after that, and I was able to learn the game much more quickly that way. I have played sports my whole life though, so I'm sure that contributed to why learning things live worked a lot better for me.
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u/Livershotking Sankyu + BJJ Brown II Jun 07 '25
I have a few:
The United States needs ONE judo federation.
The IJF needs to let Judoka compete in MMA, Sambo and BJJ.
Judo needs to bring back wrist locks.
Judo gis need to come in other colors.
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u/JaguarHaunting584 Jun 08 '25 edited Jun 08 '25
Self defense is mostly obsessively talked about by low level players who throw out 1000 different what ifs no matter what rules/martial art is discussed. realistically, i think if you take judo or any combat sport seriously for 2-3 years your chances are pretty okay if youre about the same size. more realistically though youll never have to defend yourself and if you do it's not against some D1 football player, it's the scrawny homeless guy or someone with nothing to lose not some 5x pro boxing champion. this isnt ufc 1.
USA Judo should encourage a hobbyist community instead of trying to win world medals . build the population then the medals will come far easier. they could look at basically any other martial arts club to see this.
Most coaching is bad in USA and focuses too much on teaching a throw vs where to put your hands, grip fight, move across the mat, etc. some guys are performing poorly mostly because their coach never told them much besides "put your foot here for the uchikomi". tell them how to actually move breakfall, grip, etc.
crosstraining can make you perform worse or better in judo. it really depends. and it's not the general path for higher level players.
rolling through should be scored as ippon. isnt popular on this sub but thats my opinion. all someone did was enjoy the ride of a throw. from a self defense pov we can critique all sacrifice throws and even doubles/singles where the player hits their own head on the mat at some point (ive seen this plenty of times in other grappling sports). on concrete maybe thats a bad idea. what ifs are why martial debates end up in a cycle.
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u/Lifebyjoji Jun 07 '25
Slapping the mat on impact is not a very effective way to transfer force away from the body during breakfall.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jun 08 '25
I think its more for stopping people from posting their arms out and risking breaking them than whatever force transfer mumbo jumbo. It also helps to stop people from landing flat and winding themselves.
I think the most important part of breakfalling is tucking the chin.
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u/Judoka-Jack shodan Jun 07 '25
Judo black belts should automatically be BJJ blue belts when they cross over
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u/powerhearse Jun 07 '25
Unfortunately many Judo black belts don't have good enough newaza for that. It should be a default that they're required to compete at blue belt, but that isnt the same as automatically granting someone the rank
It'd be like granting BJJ black belts a Judo blue or green automatically when they cross over. Many don't even spend much time in the gi, and some of those who do simply dont spend enough time using judo style throws to have good enough ukemi. So there's big gaps in their Judo game that most Judo greens/blues won't have
Same goes for black belt Judoka transitioning to BJJ. Some have well and truly blue or purple belt level newaza, but many don't. And many have gaps in their game that most BJJ blue belts don't have
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u/Judoka-Jack shodan Jun 08 '25
In the uk judo blacks have to compete at blue or risk disqualification.
I’d automatically give a BJJ black belt a green and see where their stand up is at. In a year they could go to brown or even black depending on their level
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u/gamerdad227 shodan Jun 07 '25
This would probably be an unpopular opinion in America due to the low base of judo, but I feel like it’s common elsewhere.
I switched to BJJ and it took me 6 months to feel like I caught up to the blue belts.
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u/Spiritual-Target-108 yonkyu Jun 07 '25
After years of doing bjj and judo. I see bjj as the opposite side of judo. Or if you do bjj the same going the other way around. (Gi is required for this side of my opinion, no gi goes the way of a folk/freestyle wrestling approach on takedowns in the us)
Judo focuses on teaching big forward throws and a few pins to start (teaching an educational system focused on a sport of throws til shodan) traditionally was more expansive.
Bjj focuses on escaping pins and how to do submissions from bottom to top(Building a guard player to purple belt) traditionally was anti striker/wrestler street judo newaza, now working towards the sport pipeline like most established martial arts (gotta pay the bills)
With more experience in either the script reverses due to diminishing returns in either direction. But that is limited in most programs since a respectable level in opposite sports is only touched upon to the equivalent of intermediate skill levels for their opposites.
Bjj black belt in elite levels may need up til a high school state level or upper colored belt level in a competitive sense for judo to manage against their competitors. But hyper specialists can skip that(a lot just don’t see the point of spending 5+ years for forcing an advantage on the ground)
Same for judo Olympic players they need the equivalent for a purple belt on the ground of bjj. If they seek to survive maybe brown belt to be offensive. (I’m looking at pure skill not level of athleticism, think combination and sequences) also same for ground work 5+ years and this really only is useful for people at the upper national level or above since it’s a 10-30 second battle that doesn’t allow intricate sequences.
But think these are elites in their respective sports. Most of the general art never needs to be that good. Mostly novice, beginners to intermediate level for the greater portion of practitioners before they quit in their respective art of choice.
This is just my opinion I enjoy many different martial arts. They are just a specific direction for an individual to take their close quarters skill sets. Anything practiced against resistance will become useful for self defense. But I always do them for fun and fitness, improvement is the point.
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u/kaidenka Jun 07 '25
The only way to improve the condition of Judo in the United States is to take every dan grade over the age of 60 and push them out to sea on an ice raft. Yes we’ll lose some good people but the overall gain for dealing with our bureaucratic problems and lousy training methods will be tremendous.
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u/PhoenixSidePeen Jun 07 '25
This might not be unpopular, but it’s way harder on the body than people give it credit for.
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Jun 09 '25
Having done BJJ, Wrestling and Judo it honestly might be the worst of the three. Nothing really comes close to wrestling for how mentally and physically difficult it is to actually do. But in terms of impact on the body I really couldn't imagine doing Judo regularly past the age of 30, it must fucking suck lol.
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u/unethicalduck Jun 08 '25
that we should have what sambo has, flavors. I mean we can have traditional judo, with the old judo rules and mindset, ijf judo, and at least no gi judo
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u/Alorisk Jun 08 '25
When you are in turtle and your opponent is standing, shooting in for leg takedowns to transition to ne waza should be used more
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u/XXXXXXXDDDDDDD69 Jun 08 '25
I think judo should be more focused on real combat and not just competitions.
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u/momomaximum Returning blue. Jun 08 '25
You should be able to grab one(1) leg AND have to attack as soon as you grip the pants/leg.
Ippons should only be awarded in you land in a dominant position (able to directly go to a pin or submition attempt)
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u/shinyming Jun 08 '25
They give out too many ippons. Not a fan of a soft, rolling ippon seoi nage, or an uchi mata where the tori doesn’t maintain control even after the throw.
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u/zealous_sophophile Jun 08 '25
I will throw out a bunch of ideas, perhaps these interest or trigger people..... who knows.
Judo is not a sport but a way of life with spiritual and survival connections mostly lost. Make Judo Budo again with temple dojos etc. again.
Volunteers, dabblers and nepotism are more rife as coaching infrastructure than qualified people appropriate for the job.
Baby boomers ruined Judo by not passing on the torch, preserving their art or encouraging generations to come up behind them. Most Judo clubs have a coach somewhere between 60 and 100 years old, that can't demonstrate and can only say "pull harder!". On average you're missing 5+ generations of coaches from clubs where no third dans or higher are on stand by to take over.
Most Judo coaches want to receive a lot more praise than they're willing to give.
The status quo with belts is toxic and mostly not based on merit. Remove the rainbow system and have a person be either an absolute novice white belt, journeyman brown belt or pass your driving test black belt. Kata, technique specialities, competition wins etc. are just filled out in a work book with stickers if you really want people to feel "special". You don't go to play basketball for belts and people are respected in clubs for their abilities alone. Coaches, area leadership, first aid givers, national champions etc. receive either a simple mark on their gi or belt to distinguish their utility from the others. Whether it's safety, authority etc. people know who to talk to. Coral belts look awful IMHO and are usually reserved for old men.
Self defence and mental training need to return with the same emphasis as physical education. But this means the ceiling of coaching raises so high you need only professional coaches who have this as their only career. Personally I would like Tomiki Aikido, Kyushindo/Kawaishi Judo, Uechi Ryu, Shorinji Kempo etc. combined together to get the atemi, kyusho and flow back in.
Judo contest rules should change to Fight 2 Win ruleset. I believe these rules are both fairer to athletes and are more entertaining to fans:
7 minutes for black belts / 5 mins for teens
- First person to 2 ippons (via throw) wins, or a submission at any time ends the bout.
- Match continues after the ippon throw is scored
- No restarts except for repositioning if the competitors go out of bounds
- 30 seconds of ground fighting allowed before restart, unless there is a submission attack
- All arm locks and chokes allowed
- Picking up and slamming from guard or a submission is counted as an ippon
- \ Edit: Pulling guard is now NOT allowed, but flying attacks such as armbars and triangles are permitted*
- Pins / hold downs do not score
- No gripping penalties
- Leg grabs are allowed
Judo's popularity needs to open up through local leagues and promoting both individual athletes as well as more team events. Just like other sports, twice a week you have competition between clubs in home and away games. Japanese Judoka retire and spend 12 months or much longer in Britain but their presence and influence is not felt enough to increase the quality and popularity of Judo.
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u/miqv44 Jun 08 '25
As primarily a striker- many judokas overestimate their skills in a "grappler vs striker" discussions, obviously mainly talking about folks who haven't done striking arts and were never properly punched in the face.
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u/Sharkano Jun 08 '25
Strategically planning to flop down and curl in a ball until a ref lets you back up, is every bit as cringe inducing as when bjj guys pull guard.
The justification that the judo guy at least attempted an attack first does not work for me. The bjj guy has to live with his decision and be aggressive from the bottom now. Essentially they are both falling to avoid getting taken down, it's just one guy is attacking before the flop, and the other is doing it after.
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u/powerhearse Jun 11 '25
I think it's actually more cringe inducing. Guard pulling is at least a method of establishing an offensive gameplan
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u/rtsuya Nidan | Hollywood Judo | Tatami Talk Podcast Jun 08 '25
Many of these are either popular opinions (maybe just not with your sensei at your club) or uninformed opinions.
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u/zomb13elvis Jun 08 '25
Do more self-defence stuff. I did judo as a young kid and trying to sweep the leg of someone 80lbds heavier than you just isn't going to happen. Say what you want about bjj but at least once a week we do a class on tackling a striker
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u/icecreampoop Jun 07 '25
The sport of judo ends the match with an ippon, the fight should continue once it gets to the ground
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u/BananaBrainBob gokyu Jun 07 '25
Training gi only is fine is youre training for the sport and not for the self defense aspect of Judo
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u/Usual-Subject-1014 Jun 07 '25
Idk if this is unpopular but I think some of the hips throws need to be squished together and uchi Mata needs to be split apart
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jun 08 '25
I mean its quite useful to distinguish them to help better understand the specifics... but sometimes a hip throw really do be a hip throw.
Which hip throws do you think need to be squished in?
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u/Sharkus316 Jun 07 '25
That the 2010 rule change has irreparably damaged the reputation of Judo and its legitimacy as a martial art.
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u/vargaBUL Jun 07 '25
boring i started with judo discovered mma and bjj and never looked back now i only pull guard and have fun
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u/Specialist-Alfalfa39 Jun 07 '25
Make judo a martial art again, not a sport. Locks and leg grabs should be allowed again.
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u/Azylim Jun 07 '25
alot of judo clubs sucks at teaching, even if the teachers are good at judo and randori. Teaching is alot harder than doing and people default to what theyre taught, which is conditioning and uchikomis.
Ironically however, all the skills they learnt comes from little habits and principles that they learn in randori that they dont really consciously know but remember to do when they spar.
to find good techniques you often have to study the pros and what they do in competition.
Judo needs to funnily enough embrace the aspect of bjj which is a more variational and study based approach to teaching. Instead of showing traditional uchimata, show specific high percentage variations of uchimata and drill that