I might get crucified for this, but that judo needs to focus on its martial roots and not just the sports aspect of it. I'm all for the sports of judo, but I see too many people "gamify" it and do things that would in fact be dangerous for yourself outside of a sporting context. The sport should serve the martial aspect, not the other way around. This was why Jigoro Kano created judo, and the peak that a lot of the pioneers strived for, a lot of us nowadays have forgotten that.
To spin off this, i get that its pointless to learn throws that involve leg grabs for sports context but man....looking at old fight vids....some of those were fucking class
i love this, but mainly because i try to do judo throws in wrestling, where leg attacks are the default and bread+butter. but its always fun to send my oppenents flying or falling when they least expect it. sadly, every drilling partner i have in the room are very aware of me trying funny throws and always block or counter. i need to work on better nogi set ups. any advice?
Transition from lower to upper body. The YouTube channel EarnYourGoldMedal is a goldmine (pun not intended) for this.
As perhaps the most fundamental example of this, here’s a classic Kolat video where he demonstrates hitting an O-Goshi off your opponent reacting to your sweep single with a hard whizzer:
To be crucified by non-judokas: It has the potential to be the greatest self-defense art.
To be crucified by judokas: The current rule set is rancid dog shite and results in a 10:1 ratio of looking like a game of assgrab vs looking like an actual combat sport.
Apparently, it was mostly because it was too much of an overlap with wrestling and the Olympic committee changed the rules to increase viewership.
Also, leg attacks allow judokas to stall the fight more easily.
I have no idea why you guys don't do legs. I am a jiujitsu Muay thai guy that gets a couple judo black belts who come by occasionally for open mat. I'm not a great wrestler, and I don't practice standup other than the fact that I start every round standing but way too often Ill hit a fake posture up to a double leg on these guys with pretty good regularity. It seems incredibly goofy to me to become a black belt at a primarily standup art only for someone who is basically a highschool wrestler to hit you with double leg take downs often.
There’s absolutely a balance. I do classical JJ and we are moving through so many techniques in any given class that we don’t practice enough the techniques with higher success rate to risk calculation. We do hip throws and seioi and all the other judo basics, but not enough of them to get really good and effective. But then, as you said, we get to do some really cool looking stuff and cool theory.
I have mixed feelings on this. Randori and Shiai are a great way to know if your judo works: that’s great for the art.
However, having done BJJ as well, I tend to think that throws which result in a bad ending position for Tori (roll-through, landing in back take, etc) should not score ippon because the point of the score is control. If the fight/match didn’t end at the throw, Tori would be at a disadvantage.
Or at least retaining dominant position. So remaining standing or landing in top/control position, or immediate transition to mount/pin.
I see too many throws get ippon that, if it was BJJ (I know it’s not, but still), would result in a back take or immediate reversal by the uke. This includes using the roll through to “force” the ippon AND bad drop throws where Tori is fave down and uke lands face up right beside them.
I have actually had a score against me where the guy rolled through after I threw with drop seoi. On review they reversed the score and awarded him the wazari.
Even though I was on the wrong side of the decision, I applauded it.
I only halfway agree - throws should count if they land with dominant position OR with sufficient force. Either would be considered very effective in a real situation. Don't think you want to make people blast their bodyweight on other's in uchi mata etc.
That'd fix the two worst throws plagueing modern judo, drop seois and kata guruma's. Both are fine if they land with force but this awful ''running with it'' meta would stop (especially bad on kata guruma, where it's initial go is stopped and just turns into a zero-impact roll/walk over).
Nobody can claim a drop-seoi wouldn't be effective in a real life situation even if you end up technically exposing your back, if the actual throw itself has considerable impact.
While I get your argument, I would still prefer to maintain a dominant posture post throw even if the fight is already over. From a purely martial perspective, getting stuck on the ground after a throw would be a disaster.
I'm a judo black belt with a purple belt in bjj. I've learned to adapt my seoi nage, koshi guruma, and uchi mata to a bjj context so back exposure is minimal. Just like any other skill it is learnable to make these throws safe, most people simply write them off rather than learning to adapt the skill under new conditions.
Simply being aware you need to maintain top position helps you adapt your landing. You wind up sort of generating the feeling of "I'm going to aim for a waza ari landing rather than ippon".
When I throw ippon seoi in a bjj context I focus on keeping their scapula pinned to the mat right after the throw and then I grab their head immediately. I dont know of anyone who could get back hooks in if you have control of their head and one of their shoulders pinned to the mat. Now just walk around to north south.
For self defence you'll likely never need more than a half-decent Osoto Gari. I've seen enough fights "on da streetz" to know that the vast majority of people can't fight . . . at all - most don't have enough balance to not fall over while throwing wild, ineffective haymakers. Any combat sport puts you leagues ahead of the average person.
Adding more throws / options is a move in the right direction, but the sport is still regressive in the shido play and also awarding ippons from throws that would normally result in back takes / non dominant positions as the result.
The sport originated from a martial art based on being able throw and control an opponent on the ground for self defense / attacking.
Is it as bad as Olympic taekwondo? No, but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t been on a downward slope. Similar to taekwondo in the 80s / 90s
I think there's no way to truly stop shido play. The stakes are simply too high, and if you get rid of shidos, athletes and coaches will still try to kill the game in the name of victory.
I think the issue of the rolling ippons is overstated, although I do kinda wish we encouraged remaining in control as criteria... if only because it looks cooler and its easier to explain. But we want big throws, and requiring control like that will make big throws harder to come by.
Any rule system has fuckery, it’s not like BJJ has perfect rule sets that are flawless. Shidos are a necessary evil so to speak. We want big throws but at the cost of realistic positions.
I think there is a balance to hit in regards to forcing action, punishing stalling / bad positions, and getting big throws attempts, and throws
I agree with this 100% especially for self defense. I don't you need to be a black belt to defend yourself but goddamn at least within a year you should be able to both deescalate most altercations and use your judo skills against someone throwing hams. I'm not even saying you hurt the person that bad just be able to defend urself and them think twice.
My friend and I have discussed this at length and came to the conclusion that we will just teach the whole of judo, not just competitive stuff. If people wish to work on competitive elements then they can do that at some of the other, more specific to competition sessions we offer.
Luckily he is from France and did the instructor training there so he had a much more developed knowledge base.
I aggree 100%, and we are not alone. My Dojo pretty much have split training into traditional & sports, they do not recommend those that prefer traditional to compete, as so much is banned. I competed abit, but stick to traditional, and sports Judo practitioners miss out on so much.. I was a bit shocked when I realized how much they cut out for sport style, Kinzi waza as the forbidden techniques are called( tbh, my buds and I think its abit hilarious to learn " the forbidden techniques", like we are in a anime or whatnot 😅 )
Its not just happening in Judo either, TKD has a whole organization dedicated to traditional style, its happening in Karate types etc.
My competing days are over for me, I want to learn the traditional way of training.
I would say this for all arts! The rules of the sport allow it to be done safely/add fun etc - but that doesn’t mean you can’t “play” while being aware of the origins and aims of the art are for.
I do BJJ (at a school that puts a lot into standup/teaching what would now be considered judo) and I find it far more enjoyable and purposeful rolling while keeping myself protected from strikes - even when we’re not incorporating strikes.
But I guess as soon as you make competition, people will become obsessed by the end goal of a win. Meaningful or not.
BJJ has this same issue. Schools teach to the sport and not the martial art. There are so many common things that you wouldn’t do in a fight like butt scooting and even pulling guard (although that was effective in early UFCs you wouldn’t ever want to do that in the street).
Imo not gained, but retained. If slow evolution away from source continuous, then eventually its so far away, it will have to be called something else, and not "judo" anymore.
It makes it feel like there is an innate purpose, it feels meaningful and history matters. If you keep clipping away the roots and the history, in a couple of generations you could be left with a “sport” that has lost its soul.
Hard to put into words for me. Some people would break their leg to win a $5 medal on a saturday. What is gained? But it matters to that person. It can’t be easily explained/justified. You just feel it matters and it’s the way that your brain is wired.
Imagine being a black belt and getting mugged in the street and you go for drop seoi and blow out your knees. In that situation judo did nothing to help you as a martial art.
Surely as a black belt you can have the few seconds of clarity to recognize that a drop seoi is an awful idea and you should maybe do literally anything else.
To be fair this one is silly because when if I'd spar/fight average people I'd just footsweep/osoto/kosoto them, unless I get smacked up the head before I get there lol. Even against BJJ guys who do stand-up (as poorly as it often is) I can just hit every type of ashi-waza on command, even though I'd have to resort to a few specific throws vs judo players.
Also alot of the time ''self-defence'' training comes at a considerable cost of repetitions and REAL resistance (which is the most important part of all). That's what the Japanese JJ folk where I train have pretty much shown me too, they do the ''realistic'' defense stuff but hardly any of them can REALLY do any of the techniques they learn.
Meh when you do strikes for real, you'd just duck under for a bearhug type takedown or snatch a leg, I'll give you that. But most fights start more pushy than instant haymakers.
Grabbing someone is a great way to give them an excuse to punch you, which is what you often see in fights. If you don't prepare with that in mind it's a great way to get knocked out. Safe clinch distance and positioning against strikes is very different to normal judo distance
I’m a Japanese Jujitsu guy who does Judo and BJJ and I’ve got to say I’m with you 100%
Strikes, weapons, chado techniques, etc are in the kotokan. That 70 year old renshi knows that but the 30 something sensai training for competition might not even be aware of this. Sport is great but it’s closing you off to the entire art if you don’t at least experience once.
When I read someone say he pinned someone in a street fight only to be literally bitten in the ass followed by a subsequent infection I realised that a number of judo pins (as well as in wrestling and BJJ) might backfire against someone using dirty tactics.
The same thing has happened to bjj brother. In the early 2000's Bjj looked like old school no rules judo. Now it looks like dogs itching their butts on the ground, gaming the points system, basically a win at all costs mentality and to hell with the martial part of the art.
Well, your opinion it's not unpopular. I agree 100%. The world of martial arts has lost its soul. Many people consider them as just sports. Others just consider them as a way of get their violence out in a place where it's allowed. And to me the best part is still its roots, the values and philosophy. Thanks for mentioning it!
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u/luke_fowl Jun 07 '25
I might get crucified for this, but that judo needs to focus on its martial roots and not just the sports aspect of it. I'm all for the sports of judo, but I see too many people "gamify" it and do things that would in fact be dangerous for yourself outside of a sporting context. The sport should serve the martial aspect, not the other way around. This was why Jigoro Kano created judo, and the peak that a lot of the pioneers strived for, a lot of us nowadays have forgotten that.