Why though? If you see it from a "real world application" standpoint, even if the other guy ends up on top of you, you just hit him with the pavement. That's the traditional reason ippon meant end of contest.
And for sports reason: if this happens after ippon, it's most likely because Tori let it happen knowing it was ippon. And if there was such a rule, I'd just position my lapel hand in a way Tori will always end up in a choke after throwing me for ippon.
The whole "hit them with the planet" idea sounds nice, but go watch some street fight videos. Sometimes it works, yeah. But from what I've seen, more often, a big takedown will slam someone HARD and they get straight back up.
I'm not doubting you, but I'd like a link to a few of these videos of someone getting up unscathed after being properly judo thrown. I've seen the compilation of judo throws in street fights that gets circulated around here every so often and none of those people were stirring a muscle let alone getting up.
Sometimes a hard fall on the tatami hurts bad enough that I don't want to get up, and I have good ukemi and my dojo has spring floors and like 2 inch mats. A throw on concrete is, without exaggeration, probably 10 times as damaging.
Videos shared on the judo sub are always going to be biased towards judo ending a fight. Hell, videos shared online in general are biased towards impressive finishes. Most street fights don't include ippons, they're more messy and likely to be waza ari or just people falling/dragging each other to the ground. In randori you don't have the adrenaline to shake off a big hit like that.
I think it's fair to say that when grapplers end street fights, the vast majority do so via pin/sub/groundNpound. To have self defence applicable judo, you should be able to consistently pin from a throw, rather than roll off or end on bottom.
And? The proposition I'm arguing against is basically "all judo takedowns on a hard surface end the fight". I searched for "wrestler" because videos featuring wrestlers are more common. I specifically looked for examples with decent amplitude takedowns that didn't end the fight - proof by counter example.
All of these examples (again, just a couple with a quick search) show a takedown that would be considered ippon in judo. Some of these examples show multiple ippons, with a higher amplitude than you see in a lot of competitive judo fights. All legit judo moves, and yes, common moves in no-gi situations.
I look at this sort of content a lot, and I've seen far more fights ending in submission/GnP/pin after ippon than by ippon itself. The whole "ippon ends the fight" narrative seems like a massive exaggeration to me. Imo if you like the idea of self defence judo, train transitions to pins, and don't roll through.
This 100%. The presumption of the fight ending throw is a delusion. Yes it can end the fight... but it often doesn't, even with a good throw.
Furthermore, many of the best throws in competition depend on some of the unique factors of sport judo. Perfect grips on the gi, and standard judo play on the part of uke, especially.
I used to repeat the "judo hits then with the planet" trope, but it was watching street fight videos that changed my mind. If the throw doesn't work, you'd better be still on your feet or in a good position to finish the fight.
A lot of times throws with roll trough risk not generating enough force (drop seoi nage for example). However if you aim to land on top not only will there be more impact but you will be in a safer position.
Ofcourse there are also throws with roll trough that will generate the neccisary force but its not a risk i concider worth taking.
Hitting someone with pavement is not a guaranteed end to a fight, that's a common misconception in Judo.
And for sports reason: if this happens after ippon, it's most likely because Tori let it happen knowing it was ippon.
Nah, most of the time jt's because they commit so hard to the throw that they are physically unable to maintain top position. Hell, Uchi Mata variants are taught with the roll through an integral part of the variant
Nobody would. That's a fairly substantially shifted goalpost though. Significant incapacitation is not guaranteed with every throw. If you're throwing for self defence you should absolutely be ensuring you maintain top control afterwards.
Also, if you're throwing for self defence you shouldn't be trying to kill the guy in 99% of cases. Unless you like jail
Yea it should count if it's with impact, the thing that needs fixing is the awful meta of ''walking with'' the drop-seoi/kata guruma to where it just becomes a roll-over. Meaning irl youd have messed up your knees, given up bad position, and have had no impact.
i mean if i had to be honest not rolling through for at least all the throws i favor isnt that difficult to adjust your rotation. on top of that if it meant stay on top afterwards suddenly safety wise landing on top of uke is going to be way more common even in practice.
years ago i hurt someones ribs with that in randori and he never continued with judo randori much after and just went back to bjj. i think judo's rules on rolling through arent unique either - a fair number of other grappling sports treat it the same. in theory for the sport rolling through seems silly. but i think the reality would be players basically taking the ride with tore. which is what happens when newer judoka do and get confused as to how they lost.
i think any half decent judoka either adjusts their rotation OR has at least 5 throws they could catch the avg joe with. turtling is done in wrestling, bjj guards can be very sporty, boxing has clinching differences, etc.
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u/DangerousBullfrog164 Jun 07 '25
Roling over and ending in a more compromised position then your opponent after a throw is not ippon worthy.