Well I think no gi BJJ is a bit different because people in BJJ uh suck ass at upper body wrestling. Like I’m absolutely launching people during our ‘warm up’ wrestling rounds. But the ability to grab their legs is a big thing to, I can shoot make them sprawl and then launch them on a follow up as they stand back up from the sprawl but without leg grabs in judo it’s a bit weird.
We actually do a lot of “Greco with trips” , so basically no gi judo (and no ref to enforce action/ push forward) at our gym and it’s good to train with but I’m not sure how well it would work as a spectator sport because you’re going to generally lack the massive spectacular throws that Greco has.
Yeah bjj guys suck at standup but even going against real judoka without the gi, all the techniques are available to you. It’s just harder because they know what they’re doing
They are available but them just being available doesn’t make for a good spectator sport really, if you want the big throws to happen consistently the rules need to be changed a bit.
Even with the rules the way they are Greco Roman matches often end 1-0 with no throws because it’s just hard af when both wrestlers are good
I don’t get this obsession with making the sport “spectator” friendly. Grappling never has been and generally will never be spectator friendly because it’s so technical and the key windows of opportunity are so small and fast. I actually love the unlimited overtime in judo. Punish stalling, yes, but overall just let the fighters fight
Yeah but that’s because there are more programs for it outside the US. I’ve talked to so many people who did it growing up in their school phys ed programs. More participation = more popularity. But no one is going to go watch an IJF grand slam event who doesn’t have a direct connection to the sport like that.
Even if you look at UFC, the vast majority of UFC spectators hate when the fight goes to the ground (unless they train as well). You can tell by the booing. They just want to see people get kicked and punched in the face because it’s so much easier to understand.
As a guy with only like 8 months of judo training with no other grappling experience who also goes to no gi BJJ open mats on a weekly basis, I can not agree with this take at all. During stand up, BJJ guys can’t really do much against me at all. The only time I’ve ever struggled is if they have past wrestling experience
I'll hit 2 decades in grappling soon. Mostly BJJ but also been doing Judo since i was a BJJ brown belt. I've done quite a lot of gi and no gi grappling with a lot of BJJ guys and Judoka
Admittedly most of that experience has been fairly local, though I have trained BJJ and MMA in a few places around the world including Singapore (including Evolve MMA), Korea, Thailand and a little bit in the US
Generally speaking I've found BJJ guys across the spectrum of ranks will have a better grasp of no gi standup than most Judoka. However, admittedly most of the BJJ places I've visited have also had an MMA program attached so their wrestling may be stronger than usual
If you're talking BJJ white belts vs Judoka with <1 year experience then the Judoka will likely have the advantage just due to spending more time trying to stay upright while people try to un-upright you than the BJJ guys have. But that changes as you go up the ranks. Judoka tend to be more specialised and in a method which involves a totally different gripping system and even engagement distance
We could very well just have different experiences, I’m located in the US but I’m fortunate enough to have access to one of the better judo schools (in my opinion) contrast to other American schools. It’s not uncommon for us to have different olympians from Japan and Europe come and train with us for a few weeks. I learn a lot from them, especially during randori. I’m sure you’re well intentioned, but you seem to kind of downplay judo as a grappling system and I don’t always think your assessments are always totally fair.
Like you left a comment on this thread saying most judokas overestimate the transferability of their skills to no gi. And while I don’t argue that it is in fact a transition that needs to be made, and that it’s also contingent upon the individual and their style of judo, I think that comment kind of implies that the art of judo itself can’t be just as useful without the gi. I look at the gi in judo like boxing gloves to a boxer. You take the gloves off completely or put 4oz MMA gloves on, there’s things you can’t do anymore like shell up and absorb punches on the gloves with a high guard. You’ll have to make tweaks to your defense but the punch mechanics and overall striking principles still remain largely the same. Similar to judo. The throw mechanics and overall grappling principles are still largely valid regardless of the rule set, but now you have to replace the gripping system with hand fighting and be aware of leg attacks
I’m sure you’re well intentioned, but you seem to kind of downplay judo as a grappling system and I don’t always think your assessments are always totally fair.
I certainly don't downplay Judo as a grappling system, I'm absolutely in love with Judo and wish I'd started earlier. But I do find many Judoka arent realistic about the transferability of their skills to no gi
Like you left a comment on this thread saying most judokas overestimate the transferability of their skills to no gi. And while I don’t argue that it is in fact a transition that needs to be made, and that it’s also contingent upon the individual and their style of judo, I think that comment kind of implies that the art of judo itself can’t be just as useful without the gi.
Of course Judo is useful without the gi. But it can't be AS useful without the gi. If you spend all your time using gi grips to establish control then of course you will be less effective when you are forced to use a gripping system you are unfamiliar with.
Thats not to say you can't throw people no gi having just done gi Judo. Of course you can. You just can't expect to be competitive with someone who has spent much more time learning no gi gripping systems.
You've likely experienced how good gripping will completely shut down your offence. That will happen no gi if you don't learn the gripping system specifically.
a boxer. You take the gloves off completely or put 4oz MMA gloves on, there’s things you can’t do anymore like shell up and absorb punches on the gloves with a high guard. You’ll have to make tweaks to your defense but the punch mechanics and overall striking principles still remain largely the same. Similar to judo.
As someone with experience competing in both boxing and 4oz MMA gloves, I can tell you that this comparison is not valid. When you transition from boxing gloves to 4oz gloves the system is almost identical. Good defence with boxing gloves actually translates fine to 4oz, even shelling up. It's just slightly less effective. I still use an active shell style defence as a method of entering the clinch in 4oz gloves.
There are effectively no technical differences between striking with boxing and 4oz gloves; only minor strategic differences.
The difference between gi and no gi is far larger than that. Your engagement distance changes significantly and your entire gripfighting system becomes irrelevant. This is the case going no gi -> gi as well as vice versa. The entire system is different.
Throw mechanics do stay the same mostly, though significant differences exist in some cases. With sasae for example, while the body mechanics are mostly the same, what you do with your grips gi vs nogi are very different because the angle at which you offbalance downwards with a no gi grip such as necktie or overhook is very different to that used in the gi. And at a different range.
The skills transfer of course, but it takes more work than you seem to think
I’ve never competed in MMA but I watch a lot of MMA (not like that’s credible) but I have competed in boxing as well and judo. I don’t really see how anybody can shell up bare fisted or with 4oz gloves. Your fists aren’t big enough to cover the entire surface area of your face/head, unless we have different ideas of what shelling up is. Your opponents fists would just find the openings in your high guard, usually by just looping around unless you’re moving forearms in anticipation of the punch to block, but then it’s not really “shelling up” anymore. Unless you adjust it to some sort of Dustin Porier style of high guard where you have to bring your elbows in the equation to make it accurate. Maybe if your palms are open that would allow for a larger surface area to be covered? But even then, you should still try to catch and parry those punches or else your hands are getting punished. Not sure if I’m making sense here.
If someone puts in a decent amount of time training no gi alongside judo, why can’t judo be as useful without the gi as well? I often times don’t hear Greco Roman wrestling go through the same scrutiny that judo does. And if we’re being technical, judo has a wider array of possible attacks because we’re allowed to use techniques which use our legs. Funny enough, I got absolutely beat up by someone with 11 years of Greco Roman wrestling experience yesterday at open mat. Man, that guy kicked my ass. He shut down all of my offense (couldn’t get a throw, trip or sweep on this guy to save my life) and he just rag dolled me on the ground. He’s also a 4 stripe blue belt. On the bright side, he said I surprisingly had some pretty good ties. That’s my moral victory for my bruised ego, lol.
Are you by chance familiar with Travis Stevens? John Danaher in an interview said that Travis and GSP did quite a bit of MMA sparring and Travis actually did very, very well against GSP, which in my opinion speaks volumes because GSP is arguably the MMA goat. It’s no secret Travis’ base and speciality is judo.
You seem like you know what you’re talking about. So let me ask. Is it REALLY that big of a difference between grip fighting and hand fighting system? I personally like to get a back grip and a sleeve grip by the elbow. In no gi, this almost directly translates into a collar tie and tricep grip/under hook. And I tend to feel pretty strong in that position and it’s only a matter of time until I foot sweep or throw a BJJ guy (unless they have prior wrestling experience)
I’ve never competed in MMA but I watch a lot of MMA (not like that’s credible) but I have competed in boxing as well and judo. I don’t really see how anybody can shell up bare fisted or with 4oz gloves. Your fists aren’t big enough to cover the entire surface area of your face/head, unless we have different ideas of what shelling up is. Your opponents fists would just find the openings in your high guard.
You can use open palms but it doesn't really help soften the impact the same way as boxing gloves. Shelling with 4oz gloves is generally designed to catch punishment on the forearms. Technically speaking its the same technique you use to shell with boxing gloves but its less effective. It's still commonly used however, particularly active variations like what Clay Guida used to use
If someone puts in a decent amount of time training no gi alongside judo, why can’t judo be as useful without the gi as well?
It can, that's exactly my point. It requires decent time put in to specific no gi training in order to transition well to no gi. If you just train in the gi you arent going to be throwing folks easily no gi if they have basic understanding of the gripping and you don't. People much less experienced than you will be able to negate your Judo no gi if they have some no gi gripping experience. I've seen it happen plenty
I often times don’t hear Greco Roman wrestling go through the same scrutiny that judo does. And if we’re being technical, judo has a wider array of possible attacks because we’re allowed to use techniques which use our legs.
Greco is way less popular than Judo and doesn't have the same crossover with BJJ so it generally isn't discussed in the same context. Also, this is a Judo subreddit thread about unpopular Judo opinions haha, so of course I'm not throwing shade at Greco right here
Are you by chance familiar with Travis Stevens? John Danaher in an interview said that Travis and GSP did quite a bit of MMA sparring and Travis actually did very, very well against GSP, which in my opinion speaks volumes because GSP is arguably the MMA goat. It’s no secret Travis’ base and speciality is judo.
Travis Stevens was an Olympian. He's also a BJJ black belt with a huge amount of no gi experience. So not exactly a good example of a pure gi Judoka
Translating grappling to an MMA context is an entirely different discussion. It's also one where grapplers of all types (BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, every discipline) tend to vastly overestimate the transferability of their skills
However on a side note i very much doubt he and GSP were having competitive MMA sparring rounds where he was getting the better of GSP. GSP is arguably the best integrator of striking and wrestling ever. It's likely they were having friendly rounds and Travis likely surprised everyone with how he translated his grappling experience well to an MMA context.
You seem like you know what you’re talking about. So let me ask. Is it REALLY that big of a difference between grip fighting and hand fighting system?
Yes, absolutely i believe it is
I personally like to get a back grip and a sleeve grip by the elbow. In no gi, this almost directly translates into a collar tie and tricep grip/under hook. And I tend to feel pretty strong in that position and it’s only a matter of time until I foot sweep or throw a BJJ guy (unless they have prior wrestling experience)
It does translate well and that would be my recommendation for a gi Judoka transitioning to no gi.
However a back grip is very different to a collar tie. A collar tie is also very different to a high lapel grip. Manipulating the head itself is a very different form of control to manipulating the body via the lapel or back grip
Also, the way you fight for an effective collar tie is very different to the way you fight for an effective lapel grip. Someone offering some basic no gi gripfighting will not allow you to maintain the strong inside grip and that form of gripfighting is nothing like gi gripfighting
A tricep grip is similar to a gi grip on the sleeve but nowhere near as effective a control method.
Also, the distance at which you operate with a collar tie/tricep grip is much closer than you'll operate with a high lapel/elbow sleeve. At least it should be if you're using your collar tie properly with actual forearm/elbow contact. If you're too far out that you don't have that frame then the first person with a decent shot will introduce you to the technical deficiency haha
The collar tie/tricep grip is definitely your optimum grip from a Judo background but when people start fighting your grips for over/underhooks particularly, you will be in fairly unfamiliar territory if you don't spend some time working those positions (or unless you're an uki goshi specialist who loves an underhook)
Yeah, that’s one thing I’ve definitely struggled with when grappling no gi. The distance. Wrestling ties and hand fighting makes you get much closer to your opponent, so you’ll definitely have to tweak where you step as far as where the top of the triangle is as well as giving your opponent the proper space to get thrown. But even when I show up to BJJ open mats and I’m looking for no gi rounds with wrestlers, I don’t always feel like a total fish out of water. Judo has served me decently well relative to the little amount of experience I have. I’ve had guys after rolling tell me that they didn’t know what to do with me because I “felt weird.” I’m like yeah bro, judo is basically wrestlings weird cousin lol. Other guys have asked me if I’ve wrestled before and as I said that Greco guy told me I had good ties which is weird considering that the vast majority of my focus is judo and in the gi. This gives me the impression that there’s not really this huge gap between hand fighting and grip fighting the way you’re claiming but I totally reserve the right to be wrong.
Of course, these are all just my anecdotal experiences which have shaped my perspectives. I may be the judoka you were referring to earlier who overestimates my transferability of skills from gi to no gi.
I also may not be the best example because I do a little bit of no gi grappling as well. Not formally, though. I’m not actually learning. Usually I show up to a bjj no gi open mat and I either get my ass kicked into oblivion, or I do okay. I haven’t really been the hammer yet, but I know it’s coming. Sometimes I drill with those guys too. One of them helped me tweak my double leg shot. I now keep a stronger head / spine position and damn near head butt my opponent in the ribs when going for a double.
While we’re on the topic, how much do you think my no gi judo / no gi overall grappling skills can develop if I continue to train judo 4-5x a week and do 1-2 bjj open mats a week, without formally doing no gi bjj in a class like setting?
I don’t always feel like a total fish out of water. Judo has served me decently well relative to the little amount of experience I have.
Judo will definitely serve you decently well in all contexts. It's an extremely effective grappling art. It is odd that you were complemented on your ties, however it's possible that this complement was based on your ability to resist them manipulating your body with their own ties. That skill is transferable because you're used to resisting much stronger grips in the gi
This gives me the impression that there’s not really this huge gap between hand fighting and grip fighting the way you’re claiming but I totally reserve the right to be wrong.
It really depends on how you judge success. With a good Judo background it may be difficult for a no gi wrestler of similar experience to throw you with just upper body techniques. However, you are very unlikely to throw them regularly without dominating the grip battle first
I experienced this in reverse coming into the gi from a no gi BJJ/MMA background. I was familiar with the execution and body mechanics of the throws, for example my best throws no gi were O Uchi, koshi guruma and Uchi Mata (often chained). However I really struggled to set up those throws with gi grips because of the distance difference and being dominated gripfighting wise. Same happens going gi to no gi
I may be the judoka you were referring to earlier who overestimates my transferability of skills from gi to no gi.
Nah, the fact that you're doing no gi at all and have noticed the distance management challenges puts you in a more realistic state of mind than many Judoka
While we’re on the topic, how much do you think my no gi judo / no gi overall grappling skills can develop if I continue to train judo 4-5x a week and do 1-2 bjj open mats a week, without formally doing no gi bjj in a class like setting?
This depends on your goals really. You won't progress a great deal going to only open mats, however as you've found it will expose you to a lot of different techniques and strategies especially when people take some time to help you out
You'll certainly be way ahead of most Judoka in terms of applying your skills no gi. You can also check out some content from guys like Justin Flores and Shintaro. I'd particularly recommend Justin Flores' instagram as he shows some absolutely excellent no gi Judo adaptations
My experience implementing my Judo into my previously existing no gi game has been that a lot of the circular footwork transfers best - using your O Uchi/Ko Uchi or footsweeps off a circular step transfers way better than linear stepping. Underhooks/overhooks are great for circular movement, as is a collar tie.
But it depends how you spend your time. You're likely better off using those open mats to gain some experience in newaza because that's where you'll learn the most from those training partners!
As I'm sure you've found, no gi also changes newaza a lot. Probably less so than standing, but still very noticeable
I went into the BJJ gym to train it, and I have done some no-gi with my Judo in general.
His gym thinks he is. He footsweeps everyone, except the coaches and their best guys. The average practitioners there were not at all a match for me. The most difficult guys are just the ones that actually refuse tie ups and go full on with leg grabs- zero upperbody wrestling.
Mind you I am not saying no-gi guys can't have good stand-up, and the serious competitors would do whatever they want to me. But to say the average BJJer is better at upperbody wrestling than us, even no gi, is absurd to me.
Mind you I am not saying no-gi guys can't have good stand-up, and the serious competitors would do whatever they want to me. But to say the average BJJer is better at upperbody wrestling than us, even no gi, is absurd to me.
I mean its been my experience that the average no gi BJJ guy will be better no gi standing than the average Judoka. Most no gi BJJ guys have an understanding of the no gi gripfighting which most Judoka do not have. There is no upper body wrestling without effective gripfighting
The average practitioners there were not at all a match for me. The most difficult guys are just the ones that actually refuse tie ups and go full on with leg grabs- zero upperbody wrestling.
My experience wrestling with Judoka is that you're actually better off engaging the upper body gripfighting prior to shooting. You may be different having spent some time doing no gi Judo, but most Judoka do not understand how to manage distance and off balance with no gi grips (except for your occasional Judo underhook lover)
I've had an interesting journey with it. I was a BJJ brown belt (predominately no gi) with an MMA background when I started Judo. Gi gripping standing was fairly new to me and I struggled to adjust to the gripfighting and distance
Having learned over a few years i then began implementing that Judo back into my no gi standing game. I found that even with a no gi background prior to Judo it took a significant effort to make the Judo which works for me in the gi transfer to no gi
It is even more difficult to do that with no prior no gi experience. One of my experiences that led to me starting Judo was doing a bunch of rounds with a Judo brown belt my weight (who got his Shodan during this period), both gi and no gi. He was also a BJJ blue belt with some no gi experience.
His gi game was so beautiful, I absolutely loved it. I got ragdolled and it was great. No gi though he had almost no transfer technically speaking. Even without shooting i landed a couple inside trips off a dominant underhook. That was prior to doing Judo and he had some understanding of no gi gripping. Not that it was super easy, he certainly had excellent base and that much Judo meant he was difficult to off balance.
Since then I've had many more experiences training standing no gi with Judoka and they've all been the same. And I'm a mediocre wrestler tbh.
You mention you tend to attend places with MMA programs included. The places I went to lacked that, but also in Australia we don't do wrestling and probably lack that sort coaching quality for the average no-gi guy, even if the sport is kicking off. From what I've seen a lot of no-gi guys with interest in standup tend to go for MMA or Judo.
I think the performance of the Judoka would vary a lot though. The ones that strictly train gi, and fight very orthodox Judoka would tend to suffer most. I suppose in hindsight... yeah I suppose the average judoka is simply not as competitive or athletic as a lot of no-gi guys tend to be, at least Anglosphere wise.
I personally came into Judo with the specific intent of trying to no-gi it. Used to do a lot of uchi-komi using underhooks, overhooks, armpit grips and etc, and sparred in that fashion too... which I think was a bad idea, but I got the grasp of how different it felt and could even throw in that fashion. I think being good with Harai Goshi and Tani Otoshi helped too- I consider those to be excellent for no-gi.
As I developed more, I also ran into different Judo styles. A regular partner would constantly impose the underhook, so I had to learn how to break him down with a whizzer. Another would crush me with a big overarm grip, so I had to learn how to make underhook actually mean something. Then training with Mongolian Judoka and their style gave me some more awareness of how to work close up. Then no-gi sparring came and it continued to develop me... so I suppose I'm not necessarily the average Judoka in that way?
I think this all kind of helped me in no-gi tie ups, but because no one was trying to stay out of range, my handfighting was very weak and literally just slapping my hands away was enough to throw me off. Maybe that's what you mean by upper body wrestling? I might be associating that strictly tie ups, not handfighting. I'll have to concede that a less prepared Judoka would struggle a lot more then.
I'm also in Australia and you're right, there isnt much wrestling here. So i definitely consider my wrestling mediocre.
You definitely sound much better prepared for no gi than the vast majority of Judoka, most even here in Australia never train no gi. You having done uchikomi etc no gi is a massive advantage over most Judoka
You should try it out sometime! Do some randori no gi with someone you know who only trains gi. Pick someone who normally gives you big trouble, it'll boost your ego haha!
Funny you mention strong wizzers - I've been very surprised how many Judoka haven't seen much of that. Good wizzer pressure shuts down a lot of underhook or belt grip users who haven't really seen much of that type of grip. I've used it to eat into their time limit on a belt grip
I've avoided doing it though because I haven't learned many good ippon options off a heavy wizzer - my go to is normally a shallow Uchi Mata to front headlock /ankle pick etc
I did get absolutely launched by my Judo coach with Uki Goshi when trying to use a heavy wizzer, he was still easily able to get inside haha
Oh I have done no-gi with guys who usually best me in the gi, and its very amusing. This nationals -60kg guy would do whatever he pleased with double sleeves would feel like a child when I could just lift him around in no-gi.
Whizzer is just never taught at all. Conceptually, we grasp the underhook from learning Uki Goshi, O-goshi and Tsuri Goshi to an extent, but we have zero reference for whizzer. That, and just reaching around to try smosh down with a back grip seems more intuitive.
That and I've been called to stop doing it because it looked as if I was applying a standing submission before.
But yeah, whizzers really help to get Judo going in no-gi. If I didn't know about about them, I'd have no way of stuffing single legs and would fare pretty bad.
Very curious about that Uki Goshi though. I dunno the name, but was your coach doing something like this? Seems like a fun 'modern' application of the Uki Goshi.
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u/HistoriesFavoriteLib Jun 07 '25
Well I think no gi BJJ is a bit different because people in BJJ uh suck ass at upper body wrestling. Like I’m absolutely launching people during our ‘warm up’ wrestling rounds. But the ability to grab their legs is a big thing to, I can shoot make them sprawl and then launch them on a follow up as they stand back up from the sprawl but without leg grabs in judo it’s a bit weird.
We actually do a lot of “Greco with trips” , so basically no gi judo (and no ref to enforce action/ push forward) at our gym and it’s good to train with but I’m not sure how well it would work as a spectator sport because you’re going to generally lack the massive spectacular throws that Greco has.