r/judo • u/ColdReflection3366 • Jun 14 '25
Competing and Tournaments Dzhebov throws Abe for ippon
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u/Senior-Chapter-jun91 Jun 14 '25
can someone explain to my non judo eyes?
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u/Sparks3391 sandan Jun 14 '25 edited Jun 14 '25
Blue turned in for an uchi mata, and white reversed it, getting the score. Ippon in judo is a win in this case it was because white threw blue on his back with the reversal of blues throw.
Edit for getting the colours mixed up half way through.
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u/Competitive_Ad498 Jun 14 '25
There was no reversal. He just hooked Abe’s ankle and rode with Abe’s throw which was still locked in and in motion. Should not have gotten a score from that.
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u/Sparks3391 sandan Jun 15 '25
Look at the upper body white has control almost all the way through abe's uchi mata was lost before he even took his foot off the ground.
Abe tries to bridge when his body hits the ground which is not enough to save him.
If you want more confirmation look at Abe's face before they go to video ref he knows he lost it
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u/ColdReflection3366 Jun 14 '25
What part do you want explained?
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u/Senior-Chapter-jun91 Jun 14 '25
As someone who doesnt do judo... everything😅. It looks like blue guy threw other guy
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u/ChickenNuggetSmth gokyu Jun 14 '25
It matters who lands with their back on the mats and who has control/initiates the action.
In this case blue starts the throw, but white has a good grip and takes over the action to put blue on his back. It's easy to miss because it's a comparatively small movement, but during the throw white twists blues upper body and then guides him to the mat, This "already" counts as a second, counter-throw.A bit of extra confusion stems from the fact that blue lands in a bridge position, not flat on his back. But this is scored the same, just for the simple reason that otherwise all top guys would dive head first into the mats and risk injury rather than a loss.
There are other throws that put the attacker on their back (e.g. sumi gaeshi), but in those cases they are still in control of the throw, which is why not everyone instantly loses if the back touches the mat.
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u/marek_intan Jun 14 '25
I, personally, don't see how white is scoring ippon here. As a BJJ guy, I see blue initiating to attack uchi mata, white attempting to defend, almost stuffing blue's attack by sweeping him onto his back, but blue gets his balance and ends on top inside white's closed guard.
I don't understand how white scores anything from this position, much less wins the match.
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u/disposablehippo shodan Jun 14 '25
Look up "Uchi-mata sukashi". The leg hook is an addition you normally don't see.
Basically blue threw himself because white made the attack not connect to his body, so the momentum stays with blue, leading to a summersault.
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Jun 15 '25
[deleted]
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u/disposablehippo shodan Jun 15 '25
Watch White's upper body. Abe cannot turn him (which the Japanese take great emphasis on), he faces the mat the whole time. While he manages to twist Abes upper body slightly. Abe lands with his side before white hits the mat. It's all a bit convoluted, but a proper counter. I would have given Waza-ari though.
Only concerning thing is the leg hook which gives a bit of a kawazu-gake impression, but since it wasn't weighted, it doesn't matter.
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Jun 15 '25
[deleted]
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u/disposablehippo shodan Jun 15 '25
I discussed with another higher Dan, he would classify it as uchi-mata-gaeshi because white does not step out with his leg, but that's semantics and not part of our discussion. Just a clarification for further referral. The leg entanglement could potentially be dangerous, but at their level I have seen enough other stuff that would tear my body apart. Certainly nothing I would teach! From a ruleset point of view it is not a forbidden technique (especially kawazu-gake comes to mind).
So if you look into Uchi-mata sukashi and -gaeshi, they live of the point that you move your center of gravity out of the position Tori expects it to be and he mostly throws himself. White ensures blues rotation continues to the point of ippon.
Tl;Dr: blue lands on his back before white (without sutemi-waza), so it's a score.
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u/ColdReflection3366 Jun 14 '25
Abe lands in the neck bridge from the counter throw, which is considered an ippon.
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u/marek_intan Jun 14 '25
Is any time in the neck bridge considered ippon, regardless of anything else that may have happened during the match?
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u/TheAngriestPoster Jun 14 '25
Only when falling. It’s to discourage people doing harmful things to themselves to get out of losing
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u/ColdReflection3366 Jun 14 '25
No, but landing in the neck bridge from your opponent's throw is considered ippon. You are free to bridge as much as you want in newaza (ground fighting) situations for example
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u/Crimsonavenger2000 sankyu Jun 14 '25
While it is important to look at who initiates the throw, this case is different because white uses te waza to counter the Uchi mata, it's simply a risk you need to be aware of when attempting Uchi mata.
He didn't almost stuff him, he turned him flat onto his back. Abe (blue) immediately turned and got on top just in case it didn't get Ippon (turning immediately could fool the judges into thinking it's a wazari, or he could at least attempt to get a point back in newaza).
Edit: bridging in a position like Abe was in is generally given Ippon, even though he doesn't make full 'back contact' with the tatami, you could see the referee wasn't sure either since it was given a Wazari at first
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u/marek_intan Jun 14 '25
Agreed on the fact that white isn't in an unfavorable position if this was a BJJ match. In all likelihood, though, in a BJJ match, blue would likely score 2 points for the takedown if white stayed on the ground for 3 seconds, and then the ending position would be considered a neutral start for BJJ-style ne waza.
I guess the thing that doesn't make sense to me is that white doesn't end up fully in control at the end of the exchange, and is still awarded ippon. I can understand if it was a wazari, but that's not how that it was scored. Is the rule in Judo that ANY time on your back/neck is a full ippon, no matter how brief?
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u/yooobuddd Jun 14 '25
Ok. Not BJJ. Judo has throws and if that throw scores ippon, the match is over.
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u/marek_intan Jun 14 '25
My apologies if I've said anything that warrants the condescension in your comment. I believe the user above me (before his edit) pointed out that even in a BJJ context, white isn't in losing.
I know about throws and ippons. I am just seeking clarification as to why that throw is awarded a full ippon.
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u/ColdReflection3366 Jun 14 '25
Your comment didn't warrant that reply. I think the key to understanding some ippons (like this one) is that the control you need to have is only judged until the opponent hits the mat, it doesn't matter if you lose your control and end up in a neutral position after the throw
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u/Crimsonavenger2000 sankyu Jun 14 '25
I said that it wasn't an unfavourable position for a judoka, but I retracted it because I did not pay attention to the white's legs. Still many options for a judoka there, but I didn't feel you could state that it was an objectively (un)favourable position, apologies.
The rest of the comment still stands though. It doesn't matter that Blue ended up turning and getting on top of White in the Newaza position if he lands like that and even tries bridging out. There needs to be a degree of control, but that's not a very high bar and the time spent on your back doesn't matter.
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u/Few_Advisor3536 judoka Jun 14 '25
Look up the technique called sukashi uchi mata. It will make sense.
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u/ColdReflection3366 Jun 14 '25
Judo match can also end in pins and submissions (like BJJ), there is no need to create schism between the sports like we so often see on the internet
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u/yooobuddd Jun 14 '25
Ok. If ippon is scored from a throw, the match is considered over. Therefore that information is extraneous
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u/ColdReflection3366 Jun 14 '25
Obviously the match is considered over if a throw scores ippon but your comment made it sound like throws are the only way to win in judo. Apologies for the misunderstanding
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u/Sparks3391 sandan Jun 14 '25 edited Jun 14 '25
The "throw" from white is uchi mata sukashi basically uchi mata slip/counter. Legitimate technique within judo. Whether this would be a clean ippon is debatable, but it would have definitely be at least wazari.
I would agree it's an ippon as it is a very nicely executed uchi mata sukashi with plenty of intent from white
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u/AshiWazaSuzukiBrudda ⬛️ shodan -81kg (and BJJ 🟦) Jun 14 '25
Hmmm - uchi mata sukashi is a te waza, and a different technique as there’s no manipulation of the Tori’s leg in that technique.
I think what we saw is much closer to uchi mata gaeshi, don’t you think?
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u/Sparks3391 sandan Jun 14 '25
No, uchi mata gaeshi requires you to stop ukis uchimata and then revers the direction backwards sweeping the supporting leg.
The direction is correct for sukeshi I don't believe tori is using his leg in the op he's just using his hands and shoulders to take ukis momentum and direct as he slips the technique. Definitely sukeshi even if a slightly unorthodox application.
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u/AshiWazaSuzukiBrudda ⬛️ shodan -81kg (and BJJ 🟦) Jun 14 '25
I see your point about the direction for uchi mata gaeshi, makes sense. Thanks for explaining.
But I do think Uke is actively manipulating Tori’s leg here as part of the counter. USA 🇺🇸 judoka Nicole Stout shows it really well here.
It’s the same technique she’s showing, right?
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u/doggobandito Ex- British cadet/university team member Jun 14 '25
Same technique as she is showing, yes - which is uchi mata sukashi
Uchi mata gaeshi sweeps away the supporting leg - very different
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u/Sparks3391 sandan Jun 14 '25
Yes, it is the same technique she is showing. The designation of a throw is usually defined by the fulcrum. Koshi waza, the fulcrum is at the hip, ashi waza its around foot/leg. So this would still be tae waza as the hands are the main factor.
The fact she is manipulating the leg doesn't really make much difference. We don't change an ashi waza throw like osoto gari because tori has taken an over the top grip and is actively manipulating uki's chin with his forearm.
I hope that makes some sense as it's quite difficult to explain through text, and I'm also struggling to find the correct words to explain.
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u/alexmex90 Jun 14 '25
I don't get it either, ippon should have more control, it should be clear that the back has been planted on the ground.
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u/ColdReflection3366 Jun 14 '25
The back doesnt need to be planted, landing in the neck bridge also scores ippon
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u/alexmex90 Jun 14 '25
I am aware of that, but I'm saying that in my opinion, ippon should have more control and more clear that the throw has landed on the back. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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u/flyingturkeycouchie Jun 14 '25
In judo, you don't have to end up in a top or even dominant position to score ippon. Here, blue landed on his back (or rather in a bridged position to avoid his back touching, but it's scored the same), so white gets the score. Doesn't matter that both rolled through and blue ended up on top. Very different from bjj where you have to land in a dominant position and maintain it for a few seconds to get the points.
Frankly, it's one of the things that bjj gets right, and it's illogical even by the judo scoring sytem. In a throw, ippon requires speed, power, AND control. If your opponent ends up on top, how are you in control?
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u/Dangerous-Sink6574 Jun 14 '25
Wow, that was a perfect read and setup for Abe to get uchimata Gaeshi’d
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u/AKACryo Jun 14 '25 edited Jun 14 '25
I think it is uchi mata sukashi not gaeshi
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u/AshiWazaSuzukiBrudda ⬛️ shodan -81kg (and BJJ 🟦) Jun 14 '25
Hmmm - uchi mata sukashi is a te waza, and a different technique (there’s no manipulation of the Tori’s leg).
What we saw is much closer to uchi mata gaeshi.
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u/Dangerous-Sink6574 Jun 14 '25
Yeah, at the end of the day, it was a perfect bait. Abe’s going to come back and run through the 2028 Olympics though. Aint no way he’s letting this go.
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u/Plus-Violinist346 Jun 14 '25
This is so not an ippon. Why can't they just reserve ippon for clear cut, decisive throws? It was a cool reversal and counter, very skillful. Some kind of score, sure. I mean, Abe landed on tori's leg, on top of him. I can't fathom why this needs to be an ippon and not a lesser score.
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u/ColdReflection3366 Jun 14 '25
Because Abe lands in the neck bridge which is considered an ippon the same way landing flat on your back is
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u/thex87 Jun 16 '25
Where is the control and power required for an ippon? The judging is so bad, it seems that no matter how you get your opponent on the back you will get an ippon.
Just a reminder of the IJF criteria for an ippon:
- 1. Speed
- 2. Force
- 3. On the back
- 4. Skilfully control until the end of the landing
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u/Droopy132 ikkyu (competitor) Jun 15 '25
I literally jumped out of my seat when this happened. Probably the biggest upset of the year so far.
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u/DisastrousAnswer9920 nidan Jun 14 '25
Please remove or put a tag as a spoiler, what a dick.
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u/ColdReflection3366 Jun 14 '25
I question why you go to the judo subreddit during the world championships if you want to prevent yourself from seeing the results
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u/DisastrousAnswer9920 nidan Jun 14 '25
I didn't go, I was scrolling, while watching Day 1. Some of us have to work and are catching up on Saturdays .
Why is it so hard to not put the result?
An easy fix would be
"Amazing result from today's Abe/Dhezov"
There, I fixed it for you-10
u/ColdReflection3366 Jun 14 '25
The throw happens a couple seconds into the video, I dont understand how changing the title affects anything. I'm sorry for the spoiler
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u/ChickenNuggetSmth gokyu Jun 14 '25
There are spoiler tags on reddit, hiding the post but not the title.
Also, if you're just scrolling you can quickly scroll past a video that's obviously a judo match before the throw happens. But if you're skimming the title you know the result before you get the second to move on.
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u/DisastrousAnswer9920 nidan Jun 14 '25
I also think a day after is sensible to put spoilers if you have to, generally better not to.
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u/feel_SPECIAL2015 Jun 14 '25
I'm more surprised that he didn't use his main technique😭
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jun 15 '25
What, Sode Tsurikomi Goshi? You don't just randomly get to throw with whatever you want, you take you get, and he did not have double sleeves.
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u/kwan_e yonkyu Jun 15 '25
At least he didn't do the "look at watch thing" and did the "proper competition uchi-mata". That one is the only one that works, right?
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u/Complex_Bad9038 sankyu Jul 02 '25
I wonder if Maruyama saw this and had a nice chuckle that he got thrown trying Uchi Mata :).
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u/ToniNotti Jun 14 '25
Well... Shouldn't Abe get dq for hansosumake? (head dive)
As a BJJ guy judo rules are crazy...
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u/ColdReflection3366 Jun 14 '25
I don't see why that would be a head dive. What makes the rules so crazy?
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u/ToniNotti Jun 14 '25
It could be very clearly be declared as head dive, no?
The rule itself has good intent but what I've seen in last 3 years is just ridiculous. Almost perfect ippons are turned to dq's just because tori's head touches the mat just a little before landing.
Also I don't like the passivity game style when the other leads by a point and then at the last minute the matches are really hard to watch cuz the winner has to "fake" activity to not get a penalty.
And I really don't like the no leg touching rule.
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u/ColdReflection3366 Jun 14 '25
Head dive rule was changed to be less strict at the start of this year. The head diving rule of the last olympiad (2020-2024) that your videos are of was indeed stupid.
I agree about some matches being boring to watch, but burning down the clock when you have a lead happens in every sport that has points and a fixed match time, I wouldn't really call it a Judo problem in particular.
Also I know what you mean with no leg touching, but I think it should still be pointed out that only grabbing the opponents legs is prohibited and you can still do all sorts of foot sweeps, trips etc as opposed to greco roman wrestling for example where you actually arent allowed to touch your opponent in the legs for a takedown
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u/Rosso_5 Jun 14 '25
Somehow the fact the he used uchi mata surprised me more than his defeat