r/judo • u/_santi20 • Jun 20 '25
Competing and Tournaments The IJF needs to stop trying to prevent athletes from celebrating when winning, it’s ruining the sport.
If you watch judo at highest level (IJF tour), you’ll notice that the refs immediately intervene after a big win to try and prevent the athlete from celebrating. This is beyond cringe and serves no purpose. Let the athletes take in the moment and celebrate a big win. I can’t think of any other sport that actively tries to prevent athletes from celebrating a win. If you disagree with my take, please let me know why.
EDIT* Seems like the majority of disagreements are from people who have never actually competed at a high level and their entire argument boils to the “cultural/traditional”aspects of judo which are different from competitive sport judo.
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u/bigbaze2012 Jun 20 '25
This is actually one of the things i like about judo . Win with dignity lose with dignity .
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u/ObjectiveFix1346 gokyu Jun 21 '25
Same. Almost every combat sport is full of staredowns, smack talk, and showmanship. It's actually nice to have one that's different.
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u/Socraticlearner Jun 21 '25
Yeah..I do karate and hate how athletes exhibit everything but sportsmanship when celebrating. It's ridiculous. I think martial arts should demonstrate respect specifically in such a higher level competition and with so much coverage. It's a shame what Karate has become
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u/silvaphysh13 nidan Jun 20 '25
I'm sensing a very specific lens here. You seem to be making a distinction that judo, once practiced above a certain level, becomes something different somehow. I understand that the effort, time, and resources sacrificed to get to an elite level are much greater, but where does that logic ultimately lead? If I win at State, can I do one fist-pump? If I win at Nationals, can I jump up and down? I think it makes more sense to just have an overall ethos to the sport.
What you view as simple celebration of achievement could absolutely be seen as demoralizing and showy to the opponent. Like others have said, absolutely celebrate your wins, but do it off the mat. Literally take like 15 steps then go nuts. I don't think it's an unreasonable policy at all, especially with how carried away some people get. It's more fair to just apply the same rule to all competitors, and minimize it overall. The purpose of judo isn't to win tournaments, it's to help people improve themselves. Winning tournaments is a cool bonus you get to do along the way!
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
I’m talking about judo through a competitive lens and specifically regarding the IJF tour, which is the highest level. I think there should be a clear distinction between competitive sport judo and the traditional/cultural aspects of Japan and judo. I disagree that celebrating shows disrespect, and somehow doing it off the mat makes it inherently fine vs doing it on the mat. Basically every athlete bows and shakes their opponents hand after a win. Celebrating shows emotion and personality of the athletes. I feel like the majority of disagreements here are from hobbyist/traditionalist who have never actually competed at a high level. I doubt many athletes would are in favour of the IJF preventing celebrations
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u/silvaphysh13 nidan Jun 20 '25
If we don't try to espouse anything beyond a collection of techniques, how is it any different that just putting a jacket on a wrestler? And at that point, why not just wrestle or do BJJ? For millions of people around the world, that tatami square has a very special place in their lives. When judo is recorded or streamed, part of what the IJF is trying to do is maintain the image of judo for viewers. While I don't agree with many things the IJF does, I think this regulation is coming from a place of showing people what good examples of judo etiquette looks like. A person jumping around and screaming while their opponent lies on the mat isn't really tying into anything judo purports to be about.
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u/Enough-Disk-2279 Jun 20 '25
Look man, this is long but I’m being genuine here. I was scrolling and I kept seeing this question of “Do you compete at a higher level?” over and over if someone disagreed. Didn’t see you ask that to the guy who agreed with you. Why? No I have not competed at a high level before you ask me, I’ll save you the time…..I do competitive things physically and mentally, but no I don’t compete in judo at a high level.
To me, this applies for pretty much anything competitive though, not just Judo, not just at the highest level—ALL LEVELS. Yes, SMALL RESPECTFUL gestures make sense, smile, maybe a tiny fist pump, yes yes yes. You achieved a dream as someone else said, right? But someone else didn’t. Sulking after a loss is also disrespectful to the work and effort your opponent put in. Im not saying to not be sad, not be happy, but dude, I just have to ask: WHY is it hard to just keep a stone face?? Your “win” isn’t going anywhere is it? Why do you need to jump and click your heels after a win, or start breakdancing? It’s belittling, it goes against the foundation of the sport itself, it goes against humility, it sours the competitive environment.
Again, dude, be happy you won, but OTHER PEOPLE take things too far. Not you specifically, I don’t know how tf you plan to celebrate, but yes man, bad apples ruin the bunch. Yes. Of course. If everyone just smiled and did a fist pump I’m sure there wouldn’t even be a rule against it, but some will jump up and down or beat their chest, piss on the floor, whatever—it’s just disrespectful as hell to your opponent to showboat like that, so to me instead of feeling the need to micromanage every victory, just have a standard.
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u/jesusthroughmary Jun 20 '25
"There’s a clear separation between actual competitive judo and all this cultural/traditional Japanese shit." - quote from OP
Well, the IJF doesn't want people who exude this arrogance, so
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u/DirkVT Jun 20 '25
IJF excuse arrogance? Why then do they allow Grigalashvili pointing to the referee commission that they were wrong after his lost final?? IJF sometimes focuses on the wrong things.
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
Dude the IJF actively hurts the growth of Judo in many different ways
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u/Dayum_Skippy nikyu Jun 21 '25
Have you ever promoted an international sport at a high level?
/comeuppance
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u/d_rome Jun 20 '25 edited Jun 20 '25
If you watch judo at highest level (IJF tour), you’ll notice that the refs immediately intervene after a big win to try and prevent the athlete from celebrating.
I think you need to define what celebrating is. Every gold medal watched had an athlete celebrating in their own way. Uta Abe celebrated, Joan Benjamin-Gaba celebrated, Alice Bellandi broke down into tears, Kaju Haruka smiled to her fans and walked off. Tasoev celebrated with Tushishvili before they both stepped off.
I consider that celebrating. What do you want to see? Athletes ripping of their gi top and flexing to the crowd like a professional wrestler? Should they grab Neil's microphone so they can cut a promo on the person they just beat?
On second thought, that sounds pretty awesome!
In all seriousness though, no single athlete is bigger than the sport nor should they try to be. Also, Judo competitions are a long day for everyone and they really need to keep the matches moving. I think the referees are pretty good about allowing the gold medal winning Judoka to take in the moment.
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u/MyCatPoopsBolts shodan Jun 20 '25
I think the complaint here is that often the referee will step in to nominally try to stop a normal celebration like the ones you mentioned, usually to no effect. Its not that people don't celebrate enough, just that the IJF probably ought to stop telling refs to pretend to care about respectful celebration when de facto it is the standard.
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u/d_rome Jun 20 '25
I'm with you and truth be told I tend to agree with the OP. As long as we don't end up seeing the Ric Flair strut. Anything less than that is okay in my book.
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u/rtsuya Nidan | Hollywood Judo | Tatami Talk Podcast Jun 20 '25 edited Jun 20 '25
If you disagree with my take, please let me know why.
why even say this if you're just gonna pull the "have you ever competed at a high level" response every time someone disagrees. If you don't care about the opinions of those who haven't competed in the circuit then reddit is the wrong place to post this. go to a training camp and go ask them there. I'm sure some of the athletes will disagree with you too, what then? are you gonna ask if they ever won an olympic medal before their opinion counts?
Edit: to clarify I don't have an opinion on this I just think OP is insufferable.
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u/CrazyAuron sandan Jun 20 '25
It’s such a lame ass response from OP, is if competing at a different level diminishes your opinion.
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
It’s not that it diminishes your opinion, rather that’s there’s a clear difference in mindset and view on this sport from hobbyists who are more into the cultural aspect of judo vs actual competitors on the ijf tour.
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u/CrazyAuron sandan Jun 20 '25
So only a person who competed at an IJF level event can have an opinion, and you came to reddit to ask peoples options.
I feel you missed something along the way with your logic 😂
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u/brawldo Jun 20 '25
Honestly man, if you’re this worried about celebrating at high level comps then maybe this isn’t the sport for you. The sport with a very long tradition of being respectful and calm win or loss.
I’d wager there are people competing at your level and higher that think you’re wrong about this, what then? They’re wrong because…….
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u/BJJBean Jun 20 '25
Slippery slope. Last thing we need is MMA or BJJ style wins where people do a song and dance cause they "won" via DQ.
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u/MadT3acher sankyu Jun 21 '25
I don’t know why, but now I imagine Shohei Ono or Uta Abe singing Baby Shark after winning…
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u/Black6x ikkyu Jun 23 '25
The opponent get's choked out, and then the winner throws a Poke Ball at them.
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u/JudoRef IJF referee Jun 20 '25
You're supposed to exhibit self control. In win and in defeat.
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u/analfan1977 Jun 20 '25
On the mat, you should be respectful and reserved. Celebrate off of the mat. Just my opinion.
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
Nothing about celebrating equates to disrespecting your opponent, this is competitive judo, not kata in Japan. Let the athletes celebrate a huge win
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u/Tammer_Stern Jun 20 '25
All through my amateur judo career I was told to keep a poker face win or lose. We all stuck to that.
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u/analfan1977 Jun 20 '25
They can celebrate. Off of the mat.
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u/analfan1977 Jun 20 '25
As an aside, I competed at the National level and qualified for an Open level tournament.
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u/nevemlaci2 shodan Jun 20 '25
I disagree. Respect your opponent. Once you are off the mat and picked up whatever you left there before entering it, you can start celebrating. It serves the purpose of preventing judo to become a shitshow. It already kind of is with professional judokas acting like they are football players when anything goes against them. And also, I have not seen a single instance of this happening on the World Championships.
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u/SucksAtJudo Jun 20 '25
Disagree.
Judo has a cultural identity, rooted in tradition and the philosophies of its founder. JuDO is a way...a path... and that is what distinguishes it from a lot of other sports.
Be humble, be gracious, and be respectful of your opponent because while you won, they lost. There is no "mutual benefit" in celebrating another judokas defeat right there on the tatami
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
Yea I think there should be a clear separation between all identify and traditional shit and competitive high level judo. This isn’t kata in Japan, it’s the IJF tour which comprises athletes across the globe. Nothing about celebrating is inherently disrespectful. I think the only people that disagree with me on this are people who have never actually competed at a high level in this sport.
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u/poisonpony672 Jun 20 '25
You’re right that the IJF tour is a global competition, and it’s filled with elite athletes pushing their limits. But what makes judo unique—even at the highest levels—is that its values aren't just "traditional shit," they’re embedded into the very soul of the sport. Jita-kyoei (mutual welfare and benefit) and seiryoku-zenyo (maximum efficiency, minimum effort) aren't just for kata in Japan—they’re the foundation of judo everywhere.
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
Dude no
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u/poisonpony672 Jun 20 '25
This thread is kind of like a karate kid movie. Cobra Kai versus Miyagi philosophy.
Since I'm old and started judo at 7 in 1969 with Al Holtmann I guess I fall into that Miyagi camp.
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u/Haunting-Beginning-2 Jun 21 '25
Wax on! Wax off, Judo shines. 100% agree!
Do the work and await the result. I started in 66. Competed at Olympics twice, won some minor medals but Continental champion for 8 years. What’s wrong with OP? I think he wants judo to be like MMA. There’s already enough micro dosing around that Kano Sensei would be shocked and dismayed if he bore witness to it.
OP is certainly “Cobra Kai.” Should top athletes get a break and be allowed to strip off and skylark to their crowd, NO! Ban those offenders with a 2 year time out, red card. Keep judo humble and clean. It’s refreshing in a competitive sport.
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u/poisonpony672 Jun 21 '25
Dōmo arigatō gozaimasu, (insert bow here) Sensei. Your words carry the weight of someone who’s lived the true path. Much respect for your legacy — Olympic appearances, Continental champ, decades of dedication — that speaks louder than anything else here.
I was raised old school too: no showing off, ever. Judo is about self-discipline. Win with humility, lose with dignity. You’re not just repping yourself — it’s your opponent, their Sensei, your dojo, and the traditions ofJudo itself.
OSS!
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u/SucksAtJudo Jun 20 '25
I have no interest in arguing about this.
You gave your opinion, and I gave mine. We're obviously not going to agree, and that's fine.
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u/coldcrawler ikkyu Jun 20 '25
Finish the match, bow out and then do whatever you want. Show some class before leaving the mat, otherwise we will have to regulate how much is too much.
The same reason why we have rules in society, some people do not know how to behave and we all need to follow a standard because of that.
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
Have you ever competed at a high level in judo? Celebrating a win does not equate to disrespecting your opponent. Everyone bows and shakes hands after the match to show respect. But fuck let them celebrate lol
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u/coldcrawler ikkyu Jun 20 '25
The fact that you say that everyone bows and shakes hands after competing just shows that you don't compete or watch Judo at all. We want to prevent disrespectful behavior, it is first an art, then a sport
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
I’ve competed at the world championship and multiple IJF events and be in this sport for two decades 😂.
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u/CrazyAuron sandan Jun 20 '25
What’s your name so we can look up your records.
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u/coldcrawler ikkyu Jun 20 '25
Doesn't matter if it is true or not, he is entitled to his opinion. We can admit the IJF has rules preventing the sport from growing, but some rules account for the worst behavior and practices across every sport.
And as I said initially; finish the match, bow and leave the mat, then do whatever you want.
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u/chubblyubblums Jun 20 '25
Oh. So you're concerned that we aren't giving you enough attention?
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u/SucksAtJudo Jun 20 '25
That's kinda the vibe I'm getting here... the core tenets and principles of judo don't apply to the special people.
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u/coldcrawler ikkyu Jun 20 '25
Then you should know better
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
Should know better about what? 😂 have you ever even been to an ijf event yourself
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u/NittanyOrange Jun 20 '25
Bow and step off the mat before you celebrate. Show some respect and humility.
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
You bow and shake hands with the opponent anyway. Nothing about celebrating is inherently disrespectful. I think the only people that actually disagree with me on this are people who have never actually competed at a high level in judo.
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u/NittanyOrange Jun 20 '25
I don't really care whether someone has an Olympic gold or has never competed in their life.
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u/Froggy_Canuck ikkyu Jun 20 '25 edited Jun 20 '25
Dude that's baloney, I train with people who were/are on national teams and competed internationally at the IJF level and never celebrated like you want them to.
You talk about cringe but I think it is way cringe when you see people bumping their chest with their fist and screaming like mad jumping around after a win.
You asked for opinions if we did not agree with you, yet you seemed salty that the thread isn't going your way and are using the "well I competed at the IJF level, so my opinion is better than yours", which honestly makes you seem conceited.
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u/brawldo Jun 20 '25
As a BJJ person watching people scream and run around ripping off their belts and or gi tops, no thanks.
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u/linkhandford Jun 20 '25
I practice judo and BJJ and the maturity level on the mat of the judokas vs the BJJ bros is night and day. Judo attitude for everyone please!
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u/criticalsomago Jun 20 '25
I watch the whole week of IJF world championships and never thought that once.
The guy licking his finger before starting kumi-kata was pretty weird though.
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u/jperras shodan Jun 20 '25
OP has to be farming for negative comment karma, right? This is wild 🤣
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
I’m not some redditcel who cares about karma or whatever that is. Do you agree or disagree with my take?
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u/jperras shodan Jun 20 '25
What year did you participate in the World Championships, and for what country? Genuinely curious.
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u/Whole-Tone-5344 nidan Jun 20 '25
They’re calming the athletes down out of IJF’s principle (Judo values, yadayadayada), unless the athlete does something over the top the ref will just simply politely ask them to refrain themselves. But in the end the athlete can and do celebrate.
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
I understand, it’s just dumb as fuck. Nobody is doing nonsensical over the top celebrations. Just let them celebrate without interruption.
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u/Whole-Tone-5344 nidan Jun 20 '25
Well you’ll never know. Someone someday might wanna do a victory lap around the stadium.
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u/getvaccinatedidiots Jun 20 '25
Teddy Riner already did at the Olympics.
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u/getvaccinatedidiots Jun 20 '25
Except Riner did take a victory lap so explain how it's wrong.
I'll wait.
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
Stuff like that just doesn’t happen. And even if it did, who cares?
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u/Whole-Tone-5344 nidan Jun 20 '25
Can you say that with 100% certainty ? Also, IJF cares. And a lot of traditionalists.
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
Because I’ve competed on the ijf tour for years and in judo in general for over a decade and that’s never happened and even if it did whatever. Also the traditionalist point is stupid, this is a competitive sport, not kata in Japan.
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u/Dsaroeth Jun 20 '25
Judo is not just a sport, it's a Japanese martial art. Discipline and composure are an inseparable part of the culture of judo. I notice that you keep downplaying this in your responses to others by insisting on only speaking in terms of "athletes" and "competitive sport" but the martial art is baked in from white belt. I've never seen a club that thought of judo as "just a sport" in the US, UK, and around the Caribbean.
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
Have you ever competed at a high level in judo? There’s a clear separation between actual competitive judo and all this cultural/traditional Japanese shit. It’s a sport first and foremost, celebrating shows emotion and personality of the athletes, winning at the highest level is so hard, let them celebrate their wins.
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u/BraveAdhesiveness545 Jun 20 '25
Very inclined to agree. Competitive judo is a sport first and foremost. Everything else is just window dressing.
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u/nevemlaci2 shodan Jun 20 '25
Lol, no. Judo was never meant to be a competitive sport. Just because us westerns made it one doesn't make Judo a competitive sport.
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u/profoundballknower Jun 20 '25
It wasn’t meant to be a competitive sport but it is mostly practiced, marketed, and consumed as a competitive sport nowadays…the art has changed with the times and idk why people are adamantly against it
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u/nevemlaci2 shodan Jun 20 '25
I'm not against competitive judo, I just don't think we should just throw away the mentality that judo at least tries to teach.
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u/linkhandford Jun 20 '25
If you read Reddit at highest level (100k+ karma), you’ll notice that the mods immediately intervene after a big argument to try and prevent the user from celebrating. This is beyond cringe and serves no purpose. Let the Redditors take in the moment and celebrate a big win. I can’t think of any other website that actively tries to prevent users from celebrating a win. If you disagree with my take, please let me know why. EDIT* Seems like the majority of disagreements are from people who have never argued anything at a high karma level and their entire argument boils to the “safe space” aspects of reddit which are different from competitive redditng.
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u/Froggy_Canuck ikkyu Jun 20 '25 edited Jun 20 '25
Read up on/watch videos of Anton Geesink and how he reacted after he took out Kaminaga for the gold at the 1964 Olympics when judo was there for the first time, and the only non-Japanese to win.
The Dutch contingent and fans went apeshit and wanted to rush the tatami. Geesink basically gestured and told them to pipe down and stay back, and stayed calm.
He understood that being humble in winning and defeat is a tenent of judo.
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u/jesusthroughmary Jun 20 '25
That would serve no purpose than to entertain the audience at the losing judoka's expense. Judo is first a martial art and a way, not merely sport or entertainment.
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
Have you ever actually competed at a high level in this sport?
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u/CrazyAuron sandan Jun 20 '25
You ask almost everyone this question, as if it’s some gotcha moment. Regardless of how high an athlete has competed, their opinion is valid.
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u/Sad_Perception_6000 Jul 22 '25
well the top level athletes don't mind celebrating their victory lol
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u/Cesar_L93 Jun 20 '25
Kendoka here, who also practices judo. I've been taught that judo, same as Kendo, is budō, so I try to have the same mindset that I was taught in kendo.
From my experience as a kendoka, celebrating is frowned upon, even at the highest level (Japan, Korea and World championship). I even saw how two dojo mates Ippon were not awarded because of them celebrating.
Although we're allowed to celebrate after the match is over but to a certain level.
At least for me, when I watch people celebrating in judo I don't seem to understand it, I see it as bad manners and lack of respect to the opponent (budō starts and end with respect).
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u/Socraticlearner Jun 21 '25
Totally agree. I had practiced Karate all my life, and the way athletes celebrate nowadays its just ridiculous. It just take aways the prestige of the art. Simple!
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u/freshblood96 bjj Jun 20 '25
BJJ guy here who admires Judo. Been competing since white belt (am blue now), and I gotta say I am in the opposite side lol.
Sometimes BJJ has too much braggadoccio. In superfights I get it. You'd want it to be entertaining. But in the org that I compete in, ASJJF, sometimes they're too lenient on that aspect that you'll see people who win by submissions do cartwheels and shit. Which is weird because I've heard some BJJ orgs will DQ you for unsportsmanlike conduct.
I get that they're happy but come on, there should be some grace when one is victorious.
That's one of the things I like about Judo. Lots of winners remain calm and composed.
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u/MadT3acher sankyu Jun 20 '25
Hard disagree, I saw how fencers scream after each points to get the referee to give them the point and it’s ridiculous. Imagine if we had that in judo… sheesh
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u/kwan_e yonkyu Jun 21 '25
Only foil and sabre, where right-of-way rules determines the point.
In epee, if it lights up, you have the point. No need to appeal to the ref or the replay.
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u/ShadowverseMatt Jun 21 '25
OP is making a classic mistake- he thinks the opinion of the athletes matters more than anyone else’s to the growth of the sport.
If what you care about is the growth of the sport, the only thing that matters is the opinion of the target audience. In this case, that’s people who never even watch competitive judo (for growth) and the ones who currently watch (to retain viewers).
Might it make a difference in appeal to let them celebrate? We don’t know. Run tests and focus groups and find out.
The only thing you found out from your post is your view is unpopular with a lot of people on this sub on Reddit.
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u/Highest-Adjudicator Jun 20 '25
Other major sports have had the exact same problem:
Major league baseball has had a long history of drama with batters celebrating when they hit a home run. The parallel is actually the closest here—it has never been officially against the rules to my knowledge, and the whole argument has been that it’s disrespectful and against the traditions of the game to celebrate a home run.
American football also has had a long history of trying to suppress celebrating after scoring. There was actually a penalty specifically called “excessive celebration” for this situation.
However, when actually winning the game, it has never been frowned upon to celebrate. I agree that going over the top with celebrations should not be allowed—unless it is a medal match. What all other sports celebration controversies have in common is that they frown upon celebrating when you haven’t even won the game yet.
I personally think if you win a match to secure a medal, you should be allowed to celebrate. But celebrating in the first couple rounds is silly. However, I’d like to point out that most other sports that have had this problem have come to the same conclusion: just let them celebrate and no one will care once the drama dies down. It’s better for the spectator to see some emotion from their favorite players, and that cannot be denied.
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u/fintip nidan + bjj black | newaza.club Jun 20 '25
An american mentality cares about the right of the winner to celebrate, and if the loser is hurt, that's their problem. It's an individualist mindset.
A collectivist mindset cares also about the loser. It means not just experiencing the joy of your win, but simultaneously having compassion and empathy for the person you just beat–as well as gratitude for them helping create the moment you are now enjoying.
That quiet dignity and culture of reigning in your celebration there is incredibly honorable and profound.
You haven't learned Judo yet if you haven't understood this.
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u/euanmorse sandan Jun 21 '25
As someone who has competed at a ‘higher level’ and known others that have, the ability to keep composure is literally part of the sport.
Without throwing names about, a famous Japanese player I know is very emphatic about this point: “Win or lose, you should look the same. It is part of Judo etiquette.”
One of the strengths we have in Judo is tradition. Sometimes it is better to keep to this path than resort to cheap tricks to engender engagement.
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u/AKACryo Jun 21 '25
"I can’t think of any other sport that actively tries to prevent athletes from celebrating a win."
I can think of one: Sumo.
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u/zehammer Jun 20 '25
This is not the way and why the fuck post this
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
Explain why? I’ve competed on the IJF tour for years, I know how hard it is to win at this level. All the athletes show respect to their opponent by shaking hands and bowing after a match. But, let them celebrate, let them take in the moment. Celebrating a win does not equate to discrediting your opponent. This is competitive sport judo, not kata practice in Japan.
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u/CrazyAuron sandan Jun 20 '25
What’s your name so we can look you up.
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u/alolanbeansnbrews nidan Jun 20 '25
Right, they keep saying they've been on the tour and basically telling everyone their opinion is invalid because they haven't done the same, I'd be curious to know how well they've done. If you're "competing at a high level" but losing every match, kind of a weird soap box to be up on
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u/zehammer Jun 21 '25 edited Jun 21 '25
I think you look like an asshole if youre jumping up and down like a cheerleader plus it disrespects the whole essence of judo basically. Otherwise if you trained hard enough you shouldn't be surprised.
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u/paviator Jun 20 '25
One of the things I love about Judo is the rugged discipline and respect. This should not be allowed in sport until after the match
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u/isnotfunny Jun 20 '25
Best thread ever.
Op: I have an opinion!
Someone: I disagree.
Op: Are you a superduper international judoka? No? your opinion is pointless, I win!
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u/zealous_sophophile Jun 20 '25
I think if you changed the rules you might affect the need people might feel for ostentatious celebrations or defeats where they scream and thrash on the floor. I am shocked when I go to competitions and everytime there's someone who kiai's like they're in holywood at every opportunity. You then have that kid or adult about who loses and completely sulks and broods even though they've been doing Judo for many years up to that point from very young.
Judo should be more about being lost in the moment and flow than barbarian berserker energy IMHO.
I don't personally like modern contest rules because I feel that it encourages a mindset of instant perma death. A bit like rock, paper, scissors. I want to see more opportunities for witnessing a whole person's repertoire on display during a match. So instead of tournaments rushing to ippons, I would prefer 1v1 and 5v5 team as special events. The rules of Fight2Win pay per view are generally the best ruleset I think for the audience to get the most satisfaction.
More satisfaction means less need to overcompensate for difficult times with existential investment into shiai. The amount of stories I've found with professional athletes with no backup or even future investment or career enrichment plan, even though the logical idea would organically be to have their own Dojo business..... the amount of athletes going through national selection and the opening of new Dojos every year hasn't got a pleasant correlation....
With all that said I don't like over celebrating, dancing, hand gestures or screaming. My big sport was basketball before and I hated the culture of trash talking, being rough/bullying in a low contact sport and the more ostentatious personalities in the NBA. Lots of cheap shotting and sneaky fouling that can lead to serious injuries. It's all cringey to me and traditional developmental Judo was a breath of fresh air.
So whilst I dislike overt displays of celebration, especially directly dominant and humiliating behaviour, my solution is to remedy this by changing the rules to really show off skill sets, and rewarding athletes with fruitfull careers post competition with permanent coaching, education, therapy and community leadership opportunities.
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u/AcaiMist Jun 20 '25
I get what you're coming from but I want to leave the cringe gi-rip-to-expose-chest victory pose to BJJ.
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
I get what you’re saying, but I’m not really talking about that. You don’t see over the top celebrations in judo generally, however even minor celebrations result in immediate referee intervention. It’s just stupid and pointless.
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u/Mr_Flippers ikkyu Jun 20 '25
I cannot believe this thread. IJF highlights always seem to want to show off the fact that judoka now do celebrate and try to get the crowd clapping. I've seen people dancing, pointing out to the crowd like its wrestlemania and doing a big "YEAH" after seeing the hand raised for ippon; hell a few times I've seen someone do it to try to make the referee call ippon before he's even raised his hand. The only thing that's banned is celebrating in a way that disrespects the opponent (which I think is fine). If anything the rules on not showing off get enforced much more at the lower levels than the higher ones because no ones making sick highlight reels for views there
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u/Squancher70 Jun 21 '25
Go watch the BJJ pans or worlds, and observe the utter douchebagery that goes on.
People throwing open their gi and screaming at the crowd, victory dances, prancing around the mats thanking God.
OP give your head a shake.
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u/teaqhs yonkyu Jun 21 '25
I don’t disagree with you except that it’s ruining the sport. Of all the things wrong with judo this doesn’t even scratch the surface
Also you’re kind of a dick
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u/Gaius_7 Jun 21 '25 edited Jun 21 '25
EDIT* Seems like the majority of disagreements are from people who have never actually competed at a high level and their entire argument boils to the “cultural/traditional”aspects of judo which are different from competitive sport judo.
Can't divorce the cultural/traditional aspects of Judo away from competitive Judo. There is still a reason high level competitors bow on the mat, and to their opponent.
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u/Correct-Dinner-4663 Jun 20 '25
Bet you want a trophy every time you compete also, stack your wall with a bunch of “participation” awards just to say you’ve won something
Real G’s move in silence like lasagne -Lil Wayne
Quiet ninjas kill, loud ninjas talk shit those are the ones that we kill -Nas
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u/Future_Department_14 Jun 20 '25
Never be proud of having beaten an opponent, the one you beat today could defeat you tomorrow. The only victory that lasts is the one achieved over one's own ignorance.
This is one of the 9 philosophical principles of Judo, it is a matter of respecting and preserving the culture of the sport, the judoka is a stoic by nature.
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
This is the type of take you can have on judo only if you’re a hobbyist who is into the cultural/traditional aspects of judo and not someone who actually competes in judo
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u/Future_Department_14 Jun 20 '25
You're right and everyone here is wrong, that's it, close the topic.
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u/myfearlessleader rokkyu Jun 20 '25
I believe it is simply just not in the spirit of Judo and since the tatami is considered sacred ground there shouldn’t be any display of emotions like that. Sumo wrestlers don’t celebrate either. I think its cool, makes the Japanese sports distinctive
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u/championsofnuthin Jun 20 '25
People are adjusting their games to win matches instead of the spirit of the martial art (hucking people and whipping out sick armbars), which is what is ruining the sport.
Make it more fun to watch and then we can talk about celebrations.
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u/Right_Situation1588 shodan Jun 20 '25
You are saying that you want to hear different opinions but everyone who is saying something you don't agree you just claim they never competed in high level and saying the phrase "traditional shit", how is calling a major part of judo "shit" is respectful?
You are the one being narrow minded and arrogant.
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
Because there’s difference in competitive sport judo as seen in the Olympics and the traditionalist cultural aspects of judo like kata or whatever. These should be two distinctly different things
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u/Right_Situation1588 shodan Jun 20 '25
By separating it completely you kill judo, it's very different yes, and most practicioners choose to be specialists in one or other, but they will always have the same roots, if you just say that they can do anything because they worked very hard for that, why not just do a dance like in socced, why not put a band on the gyms and do songs mocking the opponent? I see bjj and mma and you will see the coach screaming things like "kill them", and there's trash talking, dont get me wrong, I enjoy these sports too, but they have different roots, there should be no place for any of that in judo. And bruh, kata players also sacrifice a lot and work really hard for their goals, learn to see the other side.
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u/HermitCat347 sankyu Jun 21 '25
I'm not exactly sure when or what you mean by stopping them from celebrating. If you mean off the mat, after you've bowed out twice and are among friends, that I've never seen before. If you mean while on the mat, that I disapprove of as well.
Perhaps it's a cultural thing that you're missing? I assume you're from a more 'western' or 'american' country? Where your country celebrates individual wins and the individual? As an asian, I do think more traditional asian values tend to downplay the 'self' and individual. You're expected to show dignity and honour, not just to yourself but to the fellow practitioner you just defeated. Even in chinese kungfu, after sparring, it's customary to 'salute' (I don't know how to translate the whole gesture) and downplay it with "thanks for showing mercy" or something of the sort.
I don't think there's any inherent difference between practicing "high level sport judo" and "traditional judo". Sure, some throws are different or banned, but the spirit behind the entire art remains. If I sparred Kano, I'd expect nothing less than a bow out after he kicked my butt.
I suppose, if you need to divorce the spirit of the art from the art itself, perhaps you're better off trying a different art that allows you to grapple as well.
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u/kwan_e yonkyu Jun 21 '25
Seems like the majority of disagreements
Not once (maybe I missed just that one?) in any of your replies do you address the fact that most people think it's okay to celebrate AFTER getting off the mat. Like... you go out of your way to ignore they've said that.
No one stops you from celebrating then. What is wrong with celebrating after getting off the mat? Is it because it shows your argument is bullshit?
I can’t think of any other sport that actively tries to prevent athletes from celebrating a win.
And now those sports are filled with arseholes, and also gambling advertizing.
If the other sports jumped off a cliff, would you do it?
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u/DirkVT Jun 20 '25
As an ex-competitor and winner at the highest level, I can confirm that athletes think it's also bullsh*t that the referee immediately has to calm you down. In the past I had also conversations with those referees and they don't like to do it neither but they have to do it from the commissioners. So yes it's a stupid rule like they use it now. A 5 - 10 sec of celebration after winning a big medal has to be allowed.
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u/nevemlaci2 shodan Jun 20 '25
I thought the post was not about the 5-10 seconds celebrations, but the much longer sometimes 30 seconds+ ones?
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u/misterandosan Jun 20 '25
How is this ruining the sport? 😂
Because you personally don't like it?
Seems like the majority of disagreements are from people who have never actually competed at a high level
holy fuck you're insufferable.
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u/my_password_is______ Jun 20 '25
Let the athletes take in the moment and celebrate a big win. I can’t think of any other sport that actively tries to prevent athletes from celebrating a win.
not the same, but a stupid rule in swimming
https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/04/sport/owen-lloyd-acc-swimming-champion-stripped-title-spt-intl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFahLMLHke4
swimmer wins by a body length
his teammate (in the next lane) comes in 2nd
the winner climbs into his teammate's lane and they celebrate together (others swimmers have not yet finished)
the winner gets disqualified for changing lanes while the race is going on
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
Sure, that’s an example. And it’s example of a nonsense rule that ruined a moment in that sport
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u/YuuDonTwaNeNo gokyu Jun 20 '25
Op what is the highest level you've competed at?
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u/MrShoblang shodan Jun 20 '25
Based on your edit and a fair few of your responses I'm guessing your mind was made up before you asked and you came seeking agreement rather than actual other perspectives.
For what it's worth I like the lesser celebrations. Why's it have to be on the mat, celebrate with your team in the locker or at the pub after or whatever. This isn't the NFL
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
I mean yea, I don’t think there’s any convincing arguments to try to prevent celebrating. I think trying to prevent it is absolutely moronic and doesn’t help that judo isn’t growing due to the dumbasses that run the IJF
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u/MrShoblang shodan Jun 20 '25
So you came to argue with randoms? Why is the celebration specifically holding the growth of judo back? If I'm a layman I'm watching judo to see throws. I don't think any spectator is put off by an athlete not doing some over the top celebration.
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u/TacticalStiffArm ikkyu Jun 21 '25
I disagree with you, I think celebrating should be punished harder. Judo is not just throws and grappling but a way to think and guide people to be better. If you just want grappling without the philosophy that comes with judo then you can do something else like BJJ, sambo or wrestling.
The principles, values and philosophy of judo makes judo different from other sports in a way that I appreciate. I believe we make judo better by enforcing these values instead of forgetting about them and making judo like all the other sports.
If we make sure that all judokas follow the philosophy of judo then I think that the sport will grow. If advanced judokas are respectful to everyone then beginners will be treated kindly and they will have a higher chance of staying in the sport. If we teach judokas to take care of each other during training according to the principle of jita kyoei then we will probably have less injuries in the sport. If we teach humility and respect then judokas will most likely listen and learn more efficiently. Efficiency is nice isn't it? In judo it is described as seiryoku zenyo.
And we need to enforce the values of judo at the highest level if we want hobbyists and instructors to keep practicing the philosophical parts of judo. Hobbyists that are watching high level competitions right now will watch the athletes perform judo techniques basically perfect. But then they see that the athletes priorities their celebration and their own journey more than showing respect to the opponent that just lost. This goes against all the things that judo is supposed to represent.
I am absolutely furious about the fact that the role models that these athletes are to many judokas are not supposed to follow the principles of judo. Judo is about lifting people up, sometimes literally in a match but metaforicaly at all times.
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u/powerhearse Jun 21 '25
Posting "anyone who hasn't competed at a high level isnt qualified to comment" on your anonymous reddit account is insanely stupid
Post your name and credentials or just be quiet
Its an irrelevant argument anyway, but if you're going to stick to it then justify it properly
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u/_santi20 Jun 21 '25
You missed the point, there’s just a clear distinction between actual competitors and people who are into judo for the culture/traditional aspect
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u/powerhearse Jun 21 '25
You claim you're an "actual competitor" in many comment threads and you're using it as a basis for your arguments. So prove it
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u/SomeGuyDoesJudo Jun 22 '25
This post has been in my head for a while now. I really like it when I see the athletes celebrating a big win in Judo. I respect it when people manage to maintain this perfect neutral expression. But I love seeing their excitement. But I think the refrees and the culture of keeping it restrained is part of what makes it good. So I wouldn't want to see it changed at all.
We don't see excessive celebration. We don't see people celebrating hansoku make or when their opponent loses due to injury. Some of the comments highlight behaviour like this in other sports, notably BJJ. I think avoiding this behaviour is more important than my enjoyment of their celebrations.
I'll also add that I haven't competed at a high level. But if I ever do and I win a big match, I wouldn't be surprised if someone had to tell me to tone it down.
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u/tabrice Jun 22 '25
When João Pina of Portugal took third place at the Tournoi de Paris more than 20 years ago, he was so happy that he took off his judogi and waved it repeatedly towards the crowd. In response, the IJF had him disqualified on the grounds that his behavior was against the spirit of judo. His coach protested vehemently to the IJF, saying that he was young and should be allowed to act a little flamboyant. After the tournament, the IJF Disciplinary Committee discussed the issue. The Dutch delegate defended Pina, expressing exactly the same opinion as did OP. On the other hand, the German and French delegates refuted him, stating that "Nearly half of the Tournoi de Paris spectators are children. Do you want them to imitate that kinda behavior? You should take into account that the actions we show have a great influence on children. Judo is judo. It's different from football. We can't accept the logic that because other sports are doing it, judo should do it too." As a result, the Dutch delegate's statement wasn't supported by the other delegates. Since then, no one, to my knowledge, has challenged this ruling of the IJF in a public meeting.
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u/JoPBody IU Judo Jun 20 '25
You're getting a lot of static for this take, but I'll say this - a fair few high level judoka agree with you. For example, Rhadi Ferguson, Carrie Chandler, and Nick Delpopolo (off the top of my head) have all posted about the overly intrusive refs trying to calm people who have just reached a lifelong goal. Yes, mutual benefit and welfare and respect is important. But so is allowing for folks to be human and have an understandable reaction to the end result of YEARS of dedication and effort.
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u/nevemlaci2 shodan Jun 20 '25
there is nothing wrong with raising your hand or other small gestures, but some celebrations are just too much, thats it
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u/JoPBody IU Judo Jun 20 '25
Absolutely concur. The complaint I have seen most often, though, is that IJF refs tamp down on ANY gesture. There needs to be nuance, and right now there isn't.
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u/nevemlaci2 shodan Jun 20 '25
I didn't see that in the World Championships last week. There were celebrations that were, what I would call, over the top, and the referees didn't care one bit. The whole post feels like a little bit of a crashout from OP because he was asked by the referee to stop celebrating, or something.
Edit: OP claims to be a World Championship competitor. If that was the case idk how this is his biggest problem of todays competitive Judo.
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u/JoPBody IU Judo Jun 20 '25
Circling back just to say, "idk how this is his biggest problem of todays competitive Judo" - lol, THIS is a solid point.
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u/nevemlaci2 shodan Jun 20 '25
Honestly as an ex-competitor and now referee (tho on a hiatus for a year now due to university), I don't scold judokas for celebrating if they keep it short. But the new rules... I will have to bring a whole angle measurement kit to the video kit to see what score i should award sometimes...
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u/JoPBody IU Judo Jun 20 '25
I've been traveling for work this week, so I haven't had a chance to catch up on the World Championships yet - but I will say that Carrie, Rhadi, and Nick have all posted recent examples of the refs trying to stop even pretty modest expressions of both joy and loss at IJF events. It may not be widespread, but it definitely happens.
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u/nevemlaci2 shodan Jun 20 '25
First things first, very unlucky, the event was awesome.
Secondly, the IJF and referees are known to be the kings of inconsistencies. The World Championships were plagued by referees applying rules differently, even the same referee in 2 fights in a row. This has been a problem in judo forever, but this was exception even for the regular mess that happens.
The fights I've seen (day 1 all fights, day 2 finals and day 3 elims), only one judoka was asked to stop celebrating, but it migh have been just the referee asking them to stand up as they were lying on the ground for a minute or so.
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u/JoPBody IU Judo Jun 20 '25
Yeah, inconsistent reffing has always been a problem, although one that seems to come and go depending on the year. Glad to hear the throttling of some understandable emotions hasn't been as much of a thing this time around - folks are human, give them a second.
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u/nevemlaci2 shodan Jun 20 '25
I attend our referee seminars every time. I don't know how well you know your refs, the only hungarian IJF referee usually comes to explain the new rules. IJF has to make up their mind because it feels like some video game company who tries to pull a 180 on their player base every 6 months...
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u/JoPBody IU Judo Jun 20 '25
We have three IJF refs who are active in our region, and I know 2 of them really well. And they get as frustrated as we do at times. Everyone is trying to do their best, but between shifting rules and judo being a very dynamic sport, it's tough. I find it's best to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, no one is trying to make things harder than they already are.
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
That’s essentially my point. The celebrations aren’t over the top or disrespectful. People in this thread are hobbyist who have no fucking clue how hard it is to win a world medal. We don’t need the fucking ref immediately running up to them to tell them to stop celebrating.
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u/Cryptomeria Jun 20 '25
You've won a world medal?
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
I haven’t
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u/Cryptomeria Jun 20 '25
So that makes you one of the "hobbyist who have no fucking clue how hard it is to win a world medal"
Which isn't a problem, but it's hypocritical to dismiss others' opinions on that ground.
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u/MyCatPoopsBolts shodan Jun 20 '25
I more or less agree, and think most people in this thread are missing the point by debating the martial arts value of celebration or whatever. The reality is, people celebrate on the world tour. There is a big difference between disrespectful, over the top celebrations, the sort of which currently get you seriously warned or even sanctioned, and minor celebrations that all the athletes do anyways, just with some minor referee harassment. The ref pretending to try to calm someone down after a world gold is pure theater and does nothing to enforce actual sportsmanship (which the culture of judo+real sanctions for more extreme actions do well enough).
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u/jonahewell sandan Jun 20 '25
As a small time ref, I look forward to the day I can use the "double palms down" shushing motion on somebody 😆😆
Overall though I agree with your point. At Olympics and world championships they should cut some slack, and i think they do, I mean I've never seen anyone get disqualified for celebrating an Olympic gold medal.
If someone drops into the splits and gives the middle finger to the crowd, then yeah, they should get DQed
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u/HD_86 shodan Jun 21 '25
Genuinly curious what your take on celebration would be and what would the limit be?
Just the competitor celebrating? for how long? could a coach come up onto the mat and hug them?
IMO IJF needs to balance athletes and spectators expectations. So if athletes want to celebrate vs will the audience be offended by that celeberation? (because of the cultral/traditional aspects)
In saying this, if they're wanting to grow the sport and reach a wider audience, it would need to appeal to more people. so what would the "uninitiated" audience react better to?
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u/miqv44 Jun 22 '25
Awful take, you don't seem to understand high level competitions, at all. At highest level the skill difference between competitors is minimal and in judo everything is decided within seconds if even that. Both competitors know this and should stay composed, respectful and show good sportsmanship. Knowing how to face victory with dignity is just as important as taking a loss with dignity.
No one likes a sore loser, no one likes a sore winner either.
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u/chill_rikishi shodan Jun 22 '25
I disagree. There is more to judo than winning and losing. It is what makes the sport interesting.
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u/Muerteds Jun 22 '25
Bow, leave the mat, then act a clown. That's how it should be. Don't like it? Tough.
Also- jumping up and down hollering about a win is... meh. I've won things. I didn't mug for anything- I accepted it gracefully.
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u/HTX-Ligeirinho ikkyu Jun 26 '25
I like the respect aspect of it. I lost at IJF Veteran Worlds, the guy quickly celebrated, jumped up and down and the ref calmed him down quickly. I liked that because I was devastated in that moment. Of course he deserves to celebrate but I would do it after I left the mat area. Just out of respect.
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u/DisastrousAnswer9920 nidan Jun 20 '25
I'm more pissed off at their sucky website, I missed the Mixed Teams final block and this crap won't show it. Jeez.
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u/Designer-Advance1025 sankyu Jun 20 '25
Agreed… sports change. Celebration should be allowed if it is respectful. Let the competitor have fun. This is part of the reason judo has struggled so much to grow in the US. It’s more exciting than jiu jitsu, yet it has to stay stuffy and strict.
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
Exactly. Finally some common sense in this thread. Of course you should bow and shakes their opponents hands with your opponent, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with celebrating a big win.
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u/Tristancp95 Jun 20 '25
You should ask that person if they’ve competed at a high level before letting them validate your opinion. Even if they have, it’s only fair since you’ve been doing that to literally every person who disagrees with you
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u/Designer-Advance1025 sankyu Jun 21 '25
I haven’t competed at a high level… but I’m not sure why that matters for my point. Also, if high level competitors want to keep the traditions alive, fine. But local competitions ought to focus on fun and engagement, not stuffy traditions.
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u/Tristancp95 Jun 21 '25
It has nothing to do with you specifically. Just thought it was very telling that whenever someone disagreed with OP, he would invalidate their opinion because they never “competed at a high level”. But whenever someone agreed with him, he’d take it at face value without questioning their qualifications.
You’re a great example actually, because he was very quick to agree with you, and it turns out you never did compete at a high level either. (Again nothing against you at all, I’ve never competed ever, just pointing out OPs hypocrisy)
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u/Designer-Advance1025 sankyu Jun 22 '25
Makes sense! I guess I didn’t put much stock in the level of competition being important.
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u/SQUATS4JESUS Jun 20 '25
It's okay OP, I agree with you. You can celebrate, then bow and shake hands. They're not mutually exclusive.
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u/profoundballknower Jun 20 '25
they’re gonna hate you for this but nobody who’s disagreeing with you understands what it’s like to achieve a lifelong dream and to try and hold that in. a lot of the “celebrations” I’m seeing aren’t even disrespectful to the opponent it’s just a massive emotional release after achieving a monumental goal that doesn’t disparage their opponent directly in any way…
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u/_santi20 Jun 20 '25
Exactly. I don’t think people in this thread have any idea just how hard it is to win a medal at the IJF Worlds or Grand Prix/Slam level. Just a bunch of hobbyists who are into the traditional and cultural aspect of judo but have not put in years of hard as training to compete and win at that level.
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u/BreakGrouchy Jun 20 '25
I like the respect. Hot dogs 🌭 and being disrespectful will ruin The sport . Even in football I give the to the referee and get back to work .
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u/Barhud shodan Jun 20 '25
The greatest compliment I ever received was that no one could tell if I had won or lost by the way I left the mat