r/judo • u/twintussy • Jul 04 '25
General Training Didn't expect Judo Highlights to act like this
I was aware of the "unrealistic teaching methods in judo" debate that was occurring several months back but I wasn't really following it very closely. Today I was reading through the comments on Chadi's horrible response video to Cho Jun Ho to see what other judokas thought about the issue, thankfully it looks like most judokas agreed with the point that Cho and Harasawa were making. I was surprised to see Judo Highlights (whose competition recap videos I watch from time to time) agreeing with Chadi, and his juvenile attitude debating with someone about the issue. I don't know if he's being deliberately obtuse, or if he honestly doesn't understand what is the point of contention Cho and Harasawa were bringing up. And the cherry on top is the post on his channel asking "Name a Korean with a good uchimata" lol gotta love his pettiness.
Anyway, it's a shame to see him acting like this,
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u/Tasty-Judgment-1538 shodan Jul 04 '25
Knowing what a self proclaimed influencer posted on reddit half a year ago is life changing. Indeed.
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u/wowspare Jul 04 '25 edited Jul 05 '25
Name a Korean with a good uhcimata
For someone who's supposedly been watching a lot of IJF world tour competition for years, the Judo Highlights guy sure is quite ignorant about Korean judokas, and I've noticed he likes to make a lot of sweeping statements about Judo technique, styles, strategy (quite similar to Chadi, funny huh?). There's many Korean judokas with great uchi matas. I don't know how people still believe in this myth that Korean judokas don't commonly use uchimata.
The top Korean judokas from the 80s/90s like Jeon Ki Young, Yoon Dong Sik, one of the 80s OG Korean greats Kim Joo Yeop (his tokuiwaza), ashiwaza specialist Cho in Chul, Bae Sang Il were wrecking guys with uchi mata. Jeon obviously used seoi more than anything else but he regularly scored ippon with uchi mata too.
And in the 00s/10s there was Wang Gi Chun, Lee Won Hee, Choi In Hyuk, Choi Yong Sin (his tokuiwaza), Kim Won Jin, Gwak Dong Han, Sin Kyeong Seob (threw Anai for ippon with his uchimata, who was the #1 -100kg at the time), Kwon Young Woo. Lee used to use uchi mata a ton during his prime years. Hell, in his one-off return to international competition at 41 years old in 2023, he used uchi mata more than any other throw in the one fight in that tournament that he won. Kim Won Jin uses it all the time in his fights. For example he won the 2024 Olympic trials against Lee Harim with uchimata.
Hell even Cho Jun Ho from Hanpan TV who Judo Highlights and Chadi are arguing with, he himself regularly scored with uchi mata in his career and was one of the best -66kg judokas in the world. His uchi mata attempt against Uriarte in the bronze medal match was crucial in the judges' hantei decision being given to Cho, winning him olympic bronze.
And in today's era Kim Hayun, Lee Joon Hwan, Kim Minjong, Yoon Hyunji (her tokuiwaza), Jung Yerin (her tokuiwaza) and Lee Hye Kyeong (her tokuiwaza) have great uchi mata a lot. Kim Minjong threw a 2 time olympic champion with uchi mata. Lee Joon Hwan threw a world champion with uchi mata.
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u/HockeyAnalynix Jul 04 '25
Judo Highlights should stick to what he does best: judo compilation videos. I really appreciate his work. But his take on uchikomi is terrible (based on my personal experience with HanpanTV's uchimata and osoto-gari techniques) and siding with Chadi really doesn't help. But if he wants to double-down rather than acknowledge the validity of HanpanTV's arguments, that's his prerogative.
I like what David Kyle Johnson said: you might have a legal right to an opinion but you don't necessarily have an epistemic right.
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u/freefallingagain Jul 04 '25
Everyone's entitled to their opinion.
Won't be close to the worst thing I've ever heard either.
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u/wowspare Jul 04 '25
u/rtsuya is it true that you got chronic shoulder pain from doing the dogmatic-style uchikomi for uchimata years ago, as mentioned in the screenshots?
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u/rtsuya Nidan | Hollywood Judo | Tatami Talk Podcast Jul 04 '25
Yes the pain is chronic some days are worse, today is one of those days. But demonstrating the check the watch movement will always make it worse. Raising my arm is always numb but not always painful.
I have to add that I probably did this kinda uchikomi way more than your average practitioner though
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u/Milotiiic Ikkyu | M1 -u60kg | British Judo Jul 08 '25
Don’t like to jump in but I’ve wrecked my bicep / elbow about a year ago by doing the uchikomi version of Morote Seoi Nage where you tuck the elbow under the armpit and I still can’t reverse curl more than an empty 10kg bar at the gym 😞
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u/euanmorse sandan Jul 04 '25
My biggest problem is with people learning uchikomi as an ‘upward’ movement. It’s more efficient to pull someone forward and I just don’t think anyone out there has the strength to directly lift their opponent up in most situations.
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u/Sparks3391 sandan Jul 04 '25
I kind of came to the conclusion it was to stop beginners pulling down as most people seem to do that naturally when you tell them to pull a person. But a flat to upward pull is imo the desired effect
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u/Rosso_5 Jul 04 '25
Same thing for “practical” Osoto Gari. I got chopped sideway on the knee once by a strong new guy and it was horrible.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 05 '25
There’s definitely a right way of doing it sideways, and it’s not by trying to just push and bend the upper body over the leg because ouch.
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u/Rosso_5 Jul 06 '25
I think beginners should just sticks with the traditional basics. When do they move on to the practical version depends on their safety awareness
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 06 '25
I think it depends on whether they were actually taught to do it correctly or not. Against beginners its not bad to just let them have a throw- resisting them tends to create more injuries.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 04 '25
Never see this in real practice. People tend to pull hard across the waist.
It even translates better in no-gi.
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u/Sparks3391 sandan Jul 04 '25
I have no idea how you would pull across the waist in uchkomi. Are you sure we are talking about the same thing?
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 04 '25
Yes. Here's Shintaro Higashi basically showing it. You basically pull their hand to your hip and then turn, which is what you see people actually do.
I had another short in mind by HanpanTV, but I can't seem to find the clip.
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u/guruschuru shodan Jul 04 '25
Here in Japan, we do uchikomi every day twice a day. Roughly around 100 reps (10 per person). I like it and think it helps me grasp the feeling of the throw more.
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u/wowspare Jul 04 '25
... as mentioned many times already, nobody is saying that uchikomi is useless, or that uchikomi should not be done. There's not what's being argued here.
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u/guruschuru shodan Jul 04 '25
Oh I know. Just making the statement. Wanted to feel semi important to contribute to this conversation. 😂🫡🥋
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u/Sparks3391 sandan Jul 04 '25
I didn't even think judo highlights was an experienced judoka. When he first started his videos, I dont think he could name a single throw.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 04 '25
From the video he has uploaded of himself he actually seems quite skilled, and around Japanese players no less. Like most skilled judoka though he has tricked himself into believing the traditional way works best… even when he straight up does things the HanpanTV way.
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u/sarkain Jul 04 '25
Yeah. In one of Hanpan’s videos in response to JudoHighlights, he shows some of JH’s randori footage where he does uchimata exactly how Hanpan and Harasawa (and anybody else worth their salt) says it needs to be done.
In all honesty, throughout my judo career I’ve never seen anyone pull off an uchimata the look-at-your-watch way in randori or competition.
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u/IlIlllIIIlllllI shodan Jul 04 '25
i think its nuanced. many people argue, but i think uchikomi with good kuzushi makes sense.
Because in randori, you don't have time to think, right? When the opening comes, you have to react faster than your thinking brain.
that means you have to be good at recognising the moment of opportunity, and capitalising.
This is why practicing uchikomi with good kuzushi is important, because it lets your body learn the feeling of opponent "weightlessness". This is the "opening" feeling / the "opportunity" feeling.
So maybe uchikomi and nagekomi is all a bit exaggerated and doesn't look like real randori judo. But I think its still valuable, because it's an easy way to drill for many repetitions this "opportunity" feeling.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 04 '25
What is good kuzushi then?
Also this whole thing is silly. Uchikomi is not bad at all, just the way its done ought to be questioned.
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u/ChickenNuggetSmth gokyu Jul 04 '25
I think the argument from the beginning was that common Uchi Komi isn't just an idealized version of real-life competition, but straight up a different movement. Iirc (watched the video when it came out) they compared match footage and through the board, even with picture-perfect throws, tori pulled down on the sleeve, vs the Uchi Komi version pulling up. Pulling down even in Uchi Komi then just seems very reasonable.
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u/Mr_Flippers ikkyu Jul 04 '25
I've trained with him once or twice before; and having heard his opinions on uchi komi online I thought that perhaps he might be an easy target in randori. Not at all, even with a size advantage against him. Dude's legit and nice to work with. He's a nice guy, I haven't bothered to read the post cause I definitely lean towards Hanpan's advice and he's allowed his opinion; but whatever his view is I never saw him push that on anyone else training
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 04 '25
Most skilled judoka have his opinion on Uchikomi. I would certainly not underestimate Inoue just because he teaches the traditional deal lol.
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u/shinyming Jul 04 '25
Nah he kinda sucks
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u/BJJaddicy Jul 05 '25
Chadi himself got his shodan like three years ago and now he makes video like a supposed expert talking down to an Olympic medalist
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u/Bluurgh Jul 04 '25
just because someone is a youtuber doesnt mean they are nice people or have good takes.
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u/frizzaro nikyu Jul 04 '25
It seems to me that people are forgetting more and more what Jita-kyoei means...
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u/Judo_y_Milanesa Jul 04 '25
In every single martial art things are done how they are done in practise. I've done wrestling these past months and you just drill how you do it live. I'm sick of ppl sucking off japan's dick, sick of traditionalism, you can't question anything
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 04 '25
They have seemed to come to an understanding though, not sure why it’s worth bringing this up.
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u/Salgueiro-Homem Jul 04 '25
Honestly, starying by saying '100% against kata' tells me he is an idiot. Jigoro Kano said that randori and Kata should both be practised as analogous to Kata as the grammar and randori the poetry. Indeed, my randori got better once I started practising kata. The escapes from katame no kata actually work and practising the kuzushi, tsukuri, ans kake from nague no kata helped me understand the mechaniscs behind the throws. I fixed some techniques after studying the Kata.
Competitive judo continues to evolve, but it all starts with the same basic techniques. Uchikomi is key to getting any technique, I don't know any serious judoka that has not done 10s of thousands of uchikomi...
I agree that a lot has changed in fitness and coaching and etc. Still... they should be doing uchikomi instead of posting on the internet. Hahaha
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u/wowspare Jul 04 '25
Uchikomi is key to getting any technique, I don't know any serious judoka that has not done 10s of thousands of uchikomi...
Nobody is saying that uchikomi is useless, or that uchikomi should not be done. There's not what's being argued here.
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u/IAmGoingToSleepNow Jul 04 '25
I wonder if people are deliberately misunderstanding the argument in order to make their point
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u/getvaccinatedidiots Jul 04 '25
Neil Adams: "I have, I must admit, done only one intensive weekend of kata in my whole judo career. . ."
Neil Adams: "I don't think I learned anything by doing them [referring to katas]. . ."
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u/rtsuya Nidan | Hollywood Judo | Tatami Talk Podcast Jul 04 '25 edited Jul 04 '25
Seems to conflict with what Cal Jones has said Neil told him. which is interesting
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u/ppaul1357 shodan Jul 04 '25
Being 100 % against Kata simply from a competition Judo standpoint makes sense honestly. You can learn a lot from Kata, but if you only train to get better at competing Kata is not a necessary nor efficient way to train. I know for a fact that there are Judoka at the World Tour with a black belt who probably have never thrown a Nage No Kata in their life. However of course Kata has a place in Judo and you should have at least practiced it if you have a black belt in order to further your understanding of Judo.
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u/Salgueiro-Homem Jul 04 '25
I get that kata might not be the competitor way, but being against it is silly. Regardless, a black belt should have done kata at least for their grading to an acceptable level.
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u/getvaccinatedidiots Jul 04 '25
I agree. Most international competitors don't do kata. That's not why they are doing judo.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 04 '25
Randori is the key to getting any technique. Serious Judoka are getting 10s of thousands of rounds in randori. Uchikomi is nothing but a warmup for them.
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u/Which_Cat_4752 ikkyu Jul 04 '25
I agree with him. Uchikomi is only one piece of template for throw. It is not supposed to be fully mimicking the throw because it can’t be.
The problem in many NorthAmerican clubs is that we have shitty uke who don’t know how to properly give feedback to help tori. There are also coach keep rushing uchikomi pace instead of remind beginners basic pointers and give beginners time to figure out how to do high quality uchikomi. You also need coach who use those throws in randori to monitor students’ uchikomi and nahrkomi progress because they know what to focus on and can spot issues.
Travis Stevens in one of his seminar specifically said he would ask his junior and cadets do the classic uchimata uchikomi because it teaches them how to feel the pull, while he himself would do the deep step version where more similar to what Hanpan TV showed.
Another example is seoi nage. It’s very difficult to learn drop safely directly without a basic uchikomi and nagekomi volume because beginners can’t initiate a turn from their knee and hip while dropping level fast and not hurting their knees. Japanese call the drop “fly in” and maybe only very talented kids can figure out how to do those without going through basic uchikomi move.
Asian players do drop better and teach it better because when they were kids they were taught to do high volume standing seoi uchikomi and nagekomi then latter on the coach just tell them to relax the hip and knee more while turning.
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u/Healthy_Ad69 Jul 04 '25 edited Jul 04 '25
It's not all or nothing. There's a similar point in BJJ of how old school closed guard armbar is taught. The 4 step 'foot on hip' way doesn't work above white belts, but it teaches them how to control an arm, isolate, get an angle, and hip in. They can apply this to other situations. In Judo the pull up movement isn't done in comps but it teaches beginners some concepts. Is there a better way to teach uchimata? Probably but I'm not sure which one.
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u/getvaccinatedidiots Jul 04 '25
I'm not sure who downvoted you but I upvoted you. The downvoting sometimes is tieresome.
To answer your question: Yes. All research indicates you should mimic what the actual throw looks like.
However, I'd just skip it entirely and just do nage-komi with the caveat that the nage-komi must look like the actual throw that works.
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u/sarkain Jul 04 '25
I wonder if Judo Highlights is kind of scared to side with Hanpan and disavow the old school japanese way of doing uchikomi, as he lives in Japan and is seemingly close with some of the universities.
It’d kinda make sense that he’d parrot the old way to kinda respect his japanese ”hosts”. I’m sure he’s not looking to antagonize the judo community there, as he’s a well known influencer in the scene and would attract a lot of attention if he started going against the grain.
Most likely he’s just drinking the kool-aid and thinking that the japanese must be right in everything that they do, because they keep dominating on the world circuit.
The reality with the japanese knowing best thing is that it’s all kinda clouded by traditionalism and conservatism, which are very pervasive in society in Japan. The japanese definitely haven’t always done everything the optimal way in judo. They were quite stubborn and slow with for example adopting modern strength training regimens, and are still known for holding on to some outdated and ineffective coaching methods, especially at the junior level.
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u/Crimsonavenger2000 sankyu Jul 04 '25
I doubt it. No one asked him to respond to this as it was a thing between Chadi and Hanpan. He just decided to voice his opinion on the matter and later on decided to side with Chadi.
Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion of course, but as an influencer or someone with such ties to Japanese judo as he does, you've got to be prepared for the consequences.
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u/rtsuya Nidan | Hollywood Judo | Tatami Talk Podcast Jul 04 '25
I can say from my own experience is that Im not making a lot of content like what HanpanTV is saying because of the trouble that may come along with it
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u/beyondmash Jul 04 '25
Wait why are uchikomi and kata bad? Is the alternative to just do the throw?
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 04 '25
I don't really care about kata, but it is a part of Judo and there are competitions for it so its not pointless.
Uchikomi is not actually bad to begin with, its just people completely misunderstanding each other. There is argument that standard Uchikomi is not at all optimal for actual throwing since no one actually does it that way in competition. Its worth comes as an easy training tool and a way to teach kids.
Otherwise, we should seek to match Uchikomi with how it is done in randori. No looking at your watch, pulling people with elbow in or anything.
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u/beyondmash Jul 04 '25
I think the looking at watch and elbow in is more injury prevention if anything so I would recommend to do it for training purposes.
I think when training functionality people overdo it and seem to forget the “art” but that’s when you get breakdown of form and injury.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 04 '25
What injury is being prevented? I have seen more people complain about garami'ing themselves on elbow in because they end up trying to Morote Seoi their Uchi-Mata because of mixing up throws than anyone learning to just 'right hook' it.
And what art are you talking about? Have you seen how the old masters do their Uchikomi and Nagekomi? The watch ogling and elbow in is very modern and if anything we need to go back to how things used to be.
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u/beyondmash Jul 04 '25 edited Jul 04 '25
For beginners. Injury prevention for beginners, helps develop form early on I think.
But on second thought I think I will agree with you.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 04 '25
For me, the most its done is made me aware of how to understand Judo... by making me question it.
I think its best for little kids to learn it because they struggle with a lot of physical movement in general.
For adults, this is simply not the way at all and most of the people who insist on traditional uchikomi are drop Seoi Nage guys who struggle to even do Uchi-Mata in Nagekomi.
I didn't even set out to be an Uchi-Mata player but after scoring it rather intuitively I chased it by doing what everyone did... and getting annoyed that it didn't work. Once I made the adjustment, I actually developed an Uchi-Mata again.
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u/getvaccinatedidiots Jul 04 '25
Neil Adams: "I have, I must admit, done only one intensive weekend of kata in my whole judo career. . ."
Neil Adams: "I don't think I learned anything by doing them [referring to katas]. . ."
Uchi-komi: done the supposed traditional way is a waste of time. If you do it right, and I would argue it should be nage-komi instead of that, then you are not wasting time.
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u/beyondmash Jul 04 '25
Interesting.
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u/getvaccinatedidiots Jul 04 '25
It's how nearly every Olympian I've ever been around thinks about kata. They don't do it because they don't have time and they think it is worthless.
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u/egboutin Jul 04 '25
Absolute statements about techniques are pretty useless. The mechanics of a throw vary due to a lot of factors like: how you are moving with your partner, if they are leaning one way or the other, are they taller or shorter, are they more top or bottom heavy, ... and teaching that takes years. But those principles should be discussed early. Also uchikomi can be used as resistance training where the hand/arm movement are meant to strengthen usually ignored useful muscles, like triceps. So my take on this debate is to consider "does it work for me and why". If it does, then adopt it, if it doesn't don't. No need for drama.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 04 '25
Thicker or thinner, taller or smaller, Japanese or French, real Uchi-Mata have a number of commonalities not seen in the traditional way.
You could also just do actual resistance training to strengthen those muscles, instead of training them suboptimally.
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u/getvaccinatedidiots Jul 04 '25
This is correct. Get in the weight room to get stronger. Do judo to get better at judo.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 05 '25
Granted, some folk do not go to the gym, and kids probably shouldn’t. I suppose traditional uchikomi can help, Kimura style.
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u/Sword-of-Malkav Jul 04 '25
I mean... theres definitely a cutoff point. But the old adage "you don't really know a thing til you've done it 10,000 times" holds pretty true.
And once you really have something, if you want to perform at optimal levels- you should probably warm up before you do it. But not like, an hour of one thing.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 05 '25
Practice does not make perfect, it makes permanent.
This is something one of my first senseis have taught me, and I have taken this to heart. If I am using Uchikomi as one of my main means of developing technique, I’m going to do it right.
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u/savorypiano Jul 04 '25
There are dozens of ways to do a technique. Uchikomi isn't for training your particular method, and I certainly don't want to be doing uchikomi for methods that don't require it. The whole debate about realistic is not realistic.
Uchikomi is like a clean and snatch at the gym. It's to help build large whole body movements. You couple it into a technique so you can do it on the mat and have some crossover. But it's not to mimic exactly what you do in randori. Like for example, there is zero point in doing uchikomi for ken ken uchimata. That's not a gross motor skill, in comparison to say how Inoue does it. If you think doing power lifts help your Judo, then uchikomi does too.
I don't care how many downvotes I get. Just because someone is an Olympian or whatever doesn't mean they are infallible in thinking.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 05 '25
If only people actually taught it the way you suggest. But it’s straight up upheld as THE standard for actual throwing. The default, what you should be doing.
Unfortunately for most, it’s basically the main way to learn their technique, people simply don’t have enough randori time or nagekomi to use those for Uchikomi training.
I think the traditional way has a place for a simple Judo warmup and a handy way to teach kids. Maybe for helping those that don’t attend the gym too. But if the old masters didn’t do it that way, I don’t see why we need to do it ourselves.
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u/getvaccinatedidiots Jul 04 '25
I appreciate your perspective and I agree that uchikomi shouldn’t be mindless or disconnected from how a technique actually works. But I’d argue that’s not a flaw in uchikomi itself, it’s a flaw in how it’s often taught.
Some full-time judoka, even in Japan, still do the old-school “pull to your ear” version. And if you’re training 5–6 hours a day, fine, do whatever works for you.
But for most of us, i.e., people with jobs, school, families, etc., we don’t have time to do it wrong. We need to get right to what actually works so we can improve and actually throw someone.
That’s why I think realistic, movement-based uchikomi matters. It’s not about mimicing randori exactly, it’s about isolating the timing, kuzushi, and mechanics that make randori effective. Done right, it’s not just a warmup—it’s a shortcut to better judo.
And actually, this is blasphemy to some: I don't even do it any longer nor teach it any longer. I just teach the throw and get right to nage-komi because it's more efficient, more realistic, and it gets people better faster.
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u/MrSkillful Jul 04 '25
Everything has its place. Kata is useful in highlighting the 3-steps of any throw and uchikomi is useful for performing those 3-steps with efficiency. One isn't necessarily better than the other, they each have their pros and cons. As someone who's done a fair amount of kata, I'd say that it helped in my randori/shiai because I was better able to control my explosiveness when executing a throw. The off-balancing doesn't always need to be created because sometimes uke is off-balance and they don't even know it.
And why is the focus always Uchi-Mata when it comes to these discussions. There's 40+ different throws, but some how uchi-mata is always discussed, where, in my opinion, it's pretty overrated and most of the time a person's uchi-mata is a bastardized version of hane-goshi.
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u/getvaccinatedidiots Jul 04 '25
Neil Adams: "I have, I must admit, done only one intensive weekend of kata in my whole judo career. . .I don't think I learned anything by doing them. . ."
Edited to add: osoto-gari is also taught wrong and uchi-komi is wrong in most dojos. There's more but just wanted to add that. And I'm not sure what uchi-komi you are referring to: the one that mimics the throw or the one that does what most people think is the traditional way?
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u/MrSkillful Jul 05 '25 edited Jul 05 '25
Yamashita practiced Kata almost daily and would revert to it when he was unsure about his technique on certain throws. He also judged kata competitions thereafter written in an article by Kenji Osuji, the head of UCLA Judo. Here's the article, which is a good read: https://judoinfo.com/judokata/
The teaching of techniques is wrong in most schools cause the understanding of fundamental judo principles aren't emphasized, which I say "it is what it is". Everyone hates kata but is dying to learn how to do Uchi-Mata. And Osoto-Gari is taught wrong cause most people think off balancing backwards is correct because that's what they do in uchi-komi when most times uki isn't in a proper fighting position. If uki is in a fighting position or jigo tai, the uki has the leg tori is going to attack behind them, so the proper kuzushi is at the back-45 to isolate the leg. Which, believe it or not, is emphasized in the kata.
Wanted to add, traditional and modern uchi-komi is a moot point. Everyone will do uchi-komi different, but if the principles aren't being exercised effectively, the techniques won't have their true effectiveness. But if people are complaining about if the hand should be at ear level when performing uchi-mata or any other pick-a-straw technique, they are missing the point.
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u/getvaccinatedidiots Jul 05 '25
No, not everyone does uchi-komi differently, at least not in the U.S. In 99% of dojos, it’s the same tired “look at your watch” cue, which is functionally useless. It is terrible instruction.
And let’s be clear: there’s zero evidence that practicing a technique incorrectly leads to correct execution under pressure. That’s not how motor learning works. Most judoka aren’t full-time athletes. They don’t have the luxury of unlearning bad habits. They need reps that build toward actual throws, not rituals that look like judo but don’t produce results.
Practicing poor form leads to frustration, low retention, and the myth that judo is “too complicated” for average people to grasp or somehow it's "mystical" or "this just isn't a throw for you." It’s not too complicated. The problem is poor instructors as it’s just often taught in a way that obscures function behind tradition.
And as for osoto-gari, Yamashita himself teaches it in a way that’s completely different from how he actually threw it in competition. That’s exactly the point. In general, the “taught” version does not work, while the “competitive” versions are adapted for real resistance, timing, and pressure.
And let’s not forget, no recreational judoka trying to improve their throwing game has the time Yamashita had to “play” with kata. He was a full-time athlete with access to world-class coaching, partners, and unlimited mat time. Most students today are training 2–3 times a week, juggling jobs, families, and limited recovery. They don’t need abstract drills. Instead, they need high-yield, functional reps that translate directly to randori.
Teaching kata or uchikomi in a way that doesn’t connect to real throwing mechanics isn’t just inefficient. It’s a disservice to the student’s time and trust.
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u/MrSkillful Jul 05 '25
I'm not going to wax poetic about uchi-komi because uchi-komi will be done differently due to numerous factors, from initial positioning to height and weight differences, hand placement, etc. The uchi-komi itself will be different, but the 3 principles of a throw still apply.
Coaches tell you to look at your watch because they are training you to perform kuzushi by pulling with the hikite using your body and turning your head for optimal rotation to perform the throw, usually from a basic sleeve-lapel position. After understanding that kuzushi is a whole body thing from that simple exercise, it doesn't matter the grip because the principle of kuzushi is still applied. The rotational power is a potential -> kinetic energy exchange similar to a spring or a coil.
Yamashita understood the principles of osoto-gari. That's the point. It doesn't matter if he does it differently in competition because he is adapting the principles to fit into whosoever he is competing with. If you know the principles of a throw, you can adjust the throw however you please.
Retention is low because people don't like how slow being proficient in Judo is and how taxxing it is on the body. Yeah, you can teach a beginner a quick and dirty way to throw, but it doesn't carry over well outside of novice divisions if they want to compete. If they want to use it for self-defense, quick and dirty can work. If they want it for discipline, then the understanding of the principles of a throw would favor them better than quick and dirty.
In all honesty I think we are seeing eye to eye on certain things. I'm not saying even kata should be enforced to the typical 2-3 day recreational practitioner until they start reaching the brown belt level, where understanding these principles should start. What I am saying is that instructors or competitors who disregard Kata in favor of "this is the way it works in competition" are doing a disservice. Teach the basics of the throw via the three principles, show some modifications in hand/body positioning, then let the students figure it out with guidance via nage-komi. Then they can take those learnings and apply it to their uchi-komi and make adjustments as necessary.
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u/getvaccinatedidiots Jul 05 '25
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
I’m not just skeptical of kata. I’m anti-kata. It doesn’t work. Neither does the supposed traditional, static uchikomi that dominates most U.S. dojos.
The idea that these methods teach “principles” sounds good in theory, but in practice, they often obscure the very mechanics they claim to develop. Kata is a choreographed sequence with no resistance, no timing, and no pressure. It’s not a bridge to randori, it’s a detour. And supposed traditional uchikomi? It’s usually just reps for the sake of reps. No movement, no grip variation, no feedback. That’s not motor learning. That’s ritual.
And all the research shows that this is the wrong way to learn.
You mentioned that “the uchikomi itself will be different” based on body type, grip, etc. But that’s not what’s happening in most dojos. What’s happening is everyone doing the same pattern, over and over, with no connection to how throws actually work under resistance. That’s not adaptation.
As for Yamashita, yes, he understood the principles. But he didn’t throw like kata, enter like kata, or finish like kata. He adapted everything. That’s the point: if kata were sufficient, he wouldn’t have had to.
Retention has nothing to do with judo being hard. That's an entirely different subject. But, if we just talk about people wanting to learn how to throw: forcing someone to do thousands of reps that don’t work will hurt retention. They don’t quit because judo is too complicated. They quit because they’re being taught in a way that makes it feel mystical, inaccessible, or worse, like they’re the problem. They’re not. The instruction is.
Personally, I'd just skip the uchi-komi altogether and get right to the nage-komi so that it works against a resisting opponent. And every bit of research from the foremost experts in the world on this subject agree with that.
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u/MrSkillful Jul 05 '25
Yeah, likewise, I think as we keep discussing its different approaches for the same problem, but we both agree on the problem nonetheless. I also wanted to say my "you" is 3rd person "you" not actually you. I know you know your stuff just by our conversation, haha.
I think with the Kata, it's not so much the resistance, but more so, just getting down the building blocks of a throw. It's kind of like how a person can't do some advanced levels of math without understanding why addition works. There is more than one way to do addition. If you know what addition is, how you add up the numbers doesn't really matter cause you fundamentally understand the goal.
It's like how we are expected to perform our favorite throw in all sorts and types of positions during the rank-up practical. If you understand the throw, the principles are the same regardless of the position. That's why I think that even though Yamashita throws differently than the Kata, was because he understood the principles, so Osoto-Gari is Osoto-Gari regardless of who is on the receiving end. It's a mastery of the principles which can then be manipulated howsoever he pleased.
I also train at a very pro-kata school, so my opinion is biased. I have had some moderate success in competition both as a competitor and coach, but everyone is different. I know some awesome competitors and instructors who barely know the nage-no. Though in my school you need to know nage-no and perform the 40 gokyo throws before going for shodan. Nidan is similar, but a person needs to know kimi-no along with the other 2.
Yeah, I agree 110% that the fundamental problem is poor instruction, which leads to feelings of inadequacy within the student. Though I think I'm in a position where I'm saying that all instructors are students, and because of how they were focused so much on just throwing a dude, they didn't focus on the general principles of why the throw works the way they do. Using even a kata-like approach to new moves helps beginners learn and build habits to learn any particular technique and defeat those feelings of inadequacy because atleast they know "why."
I agree too on skipping uchi-komi. It's not all that useful and if practiced wrong it will build bad habits. Nage-komi goes through all parts of the throw, so finding the fixes and adjustments are easier. I personally favor nage-komi because it goes through all 3-steps.
I think it's best we agree on the problem, just figuring out the solution is going to take train and error. Though I don't believe any of us are wrong, more so it's different approaches which may both be solutions that work.
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u/getvaccinatedidiots Jul 04 '25
From the videos I've seen, Chadi is not high-level in any way so why anyone would listen to him about anything, I have no idea.
But, here's what we know from video evidence:
I have yet to see anyone doing uchi-mata in any international competition the supposed traditional way.
I have yet to see anyone doing osoto-gari in any international competition the supposed traditional way.
The videos I've seen of Maruyama teaching uchi-mata is how he actually does it in competition.
The videos of many international players from Japan teaching uchi-mata and osoto-gari is not how they do it in competition.
There's more but not necessary to post and I don't care what judo highlights or anyone else posted. We can see it with our own eyes and recreational players do not have time to do mindless uchi-komi that has no application to competition or actually throwing someone, i.e., we have jobs, college, etc.
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u/Emperor_of_All Jul 04 '25
Just a personal opinion, I like uchikomi, I think it allows you to establish muscle memory, in the heat of battle you do an entry and you know if you hit it perfectly or not and if you have a good shot at your throw.
It does appear that they are talking about more than just uchikomi and doing things the traditional way. I think that you can do things multiple different ways and practice all ways. I disagree sometimes that the most efficient way is the same for everyone, so forcing someone to do uchimata only the traditional way is as damaging as forcing someone to train uchimata the only way they know how to do it. Ultimately as any fighter you need to adapt to the circumstances and in any fighting art it is that ability that allows us to win.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 04 '25
The problem is that traditional style straight up never turns up and causes too many frustrations with Judoka who try too hard to become awesome like Inoue.
Yes there are many foot entries, grip configurations and leg positions... but when just about everyone hits it with a big old tsurite elbow out and hikite pulling across rather than up, you gotta ask questions...
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u/Emperor_of_All Jul 04 '25
I just mean look at the way people talk about uchimata here and they talk about pushing the head down as the only way to do uchimata just as pure traditionalist talk about doing it the other way. I have hit uchimata pushing the head downwards maybe like once.
I have hit uchimata tons of different times, yes while not quite traditional, I have probably used the lift method more than the pushing the head down method and that probably has to do more my style of fighting. But the way we here some people here talk is the pushing the head down way is the only way to do it and I think that is also false.
Of course with that said as I said, I do not do anything the traditional way either. I just say I can learn something from it and I can/will modify a throw to make it work.
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u/getvaccinatedidiots Jul 04 '25
I think what most are saying is this: it is a time-waster to do uchi-komi the supposed traditional way. They want to mimic what is done in competition to get better so they can actually throw a resisting opponent.
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u/Emperor_of_All Jul 04 '25
Well there seems to be 2 arguments here which I can see their points,
is uchikomi is useless because you don't learn anything as opposed to throwing.
the traditional throws don't work so we should not be learning how to do them, instead we should learn how to do the practical way of throwing
There is a merit to both arguments because people want to get straight down to what makes most practical sense to them on how to manage the limited time they have to get the best they can.
There is a 3rd argument that isn't made as much here but there was talk for a while about getting rid of warmups. The thought is that warmups are wasting time and that people should be doing that on their own time and when you get into the gym you should be ready to go, and that warm ups also waste energy you could be spending on actual practice and be able to focus on you know doing judo.
So while I can see the point of all these arguments I think that some of it is somewhat short sighted because not everyone learns the same way, not everyone utilizes throws the same way. I see value in both sides of the argument, I am just citing how I have benefitted from one side that is not really being represented.
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u/getvaccinatedidiots Jul 04 '25
I'm one of those that don't waste time on running around the mat. The warm-up is judo, i.e., give me 50 juji-gatames with 25 left and 25 right, then give me 50 turnovers, 25 left and 25 right, etc.
On your #2 above: I think what you think is traditional is not actually traditional. If you search on this forum, you'll see video from decades ago where the throws are not done the supposed traditional way. I used to think as you do by the way.
And I agree that people don't learn the same way, some are visual, auditory, etc. I just happen to fall on the side of let's do the throw the way it actually works. This is probably blasphemy to some but I don't even believe in uchi-komi at all. I just move straight from a newaza type warm-up to nage-komi.
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u/Emperor_of_All Jul 04 '25
Nothing is blasphemy just a healthy discussion on learning and preference.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 05 '25
It is the best way to do it by far though. Whether you’re going for the big lift Hane-Mata or ken ken whizzer kick, you have to actually drive people’s heads down to get Uchi-Mata.
Maybe it works for you to do a elbow in lift with hikite going up, but I have legitimately never seen this done in live rounds. They’re usually drop Seoi Nage guys.
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u/Emperor_of_All Jul 05 '25
My main uchimata is kankan off a sleeve grip aka the russian tie. I am also a main harai goshi guy so I do a lot of over the back/head/neck throws, the times I do get the lifts is faking it out and under cutting, so it is a possible me thing since people are used to fighting me and trying to adapt. It quite possibly never work in a tournament IDK.
Which to my point is that to win in actual fights like I said is just knowing and adjusting. But in this conversation I have already used 3 version of uchimata which is sort of my point, knowing and not using is sometimes better than not knowing. I also think your point is valid train what works.
Edit: To your point, It is definitely not my main version, and as you would call it hitting it once in a blue moon is a low percentage throw, but if I didn't know it I would have never hit it.
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u/Equivalent-Soup-1061 Jul 04 '25
You can achieve actually pulling up in uchikomi because your uke is not fully resisting and they are stand up tall.
Imagine if you have a rope, the end of rope has a small rock. When you pull, it is possible for you to actually pull the rock off the floor
Now in randori, your uke is pulling their arm down and anchor their weight on the mat as much as they can to avoid throw
Now imagine the rock becomes a 300kg or just an anchor on the concrete /all, so it is not possible for you to actually pull the floor up. When you pull with all your core strength and do so explosively, you ended up pulling youself into the weight. If the weight is about your height, you ended up pulling yourself UNDER or even BEHIND the weight
That's the change from basic uchikomi to throw a fully resistent uke in randori.
Your body is doing roughly same thing, but ended up with different result due to change of the resistance
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 05 '25
I dunno man I just do what I do and I can Uchi Mata people while the trad guys cannot and continue to explain Uchi-Mata their way despite never being good at it.
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u/Which_Cat_4752 ikkyu Jul 05 '25
I don’t know about you but I’ve been on mat with former Japanese university players in randori. There’s reason they like to do that kind of uchikomi. And they surely are good with their uchimata. Not the Ken Ken style, but the high lifting ones, head pointing to mat version.
Going against other adult recreational guys in my weight classes, I rarely got scored on by those ones who can’t do good holding uchimata even they are usually much taller than me because they usually aim for the near leg to begin with, and their supporting leg are usually too far. I just need to sink my weight and sit on their thigh while drive their head to the mat to force tori to give up the uchimata.
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u/jef_TheWorld Jul 04 '25
I don’t exactly understand the debate ? Well I don’t know which video you are talking about here, but as I can see is that you guys learn different ways to do Uchikomi ? In France, or at least every coaches I did a lesson with (my dojo coach, my brother, and 3 coaches that was invited to my dojo and leaded the training), teaches us techniques as:
1: learning the technique with uchikomi, as it’s the « theory version » of the technique
2: a randori where uke doesn’t defend (or low defence), to know how it feels during movement
2.5: not always, but sometimes we do a normal randori where we only use the technique we are learning
3: a normal randori with every the technique (but we are asking to try to execute the technique, though it’s okay if we don’t)
I didn’t even knew that people around had different ways to learn judo actually, I mean I had some doubts when watching World’s and Olympic but I wasn’t sure 😅
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u/getvaccinatedidiots Jul 04 '25
The debate is this: first, the supposed traditional way of uchi-komi isn't the traditional way.
Second, if you are going to do a sport, you need to practice how it is actually done. The supposed traditional uchi-komi does not and has never worked to my knowledge in any international competition. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I've just never seen it. You can see all of this for yourself on the competition videos https://judo.ijf.org/techniques. Thus, practicing that is a time-waster and since most "regular" judokas have jobs or go to college, etc., we don't have time to waste.
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u/Haunting-Beginning-2 Jul 04 '25
😝 “no point in uchikomi” is like saying no point in learning “the alphabet and phrases or syllables,” when learning a language, just go straight to fluent conversations.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 04 '25
This whole discussion has gone off rails. None of the original criticism was ever against Uchi-Komi, only that Uchi-Komi and Randori technique is different for some reason and that perhaps Uchi-Komi should emulate Randori instead.
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u/getvaccinatedidiots Jul 04 '25
I didn't downvote you and just upvoted you because I think downvoting is generally dumb.
Neil Adams: "I have, I must admit, done only one intensive weekend of kata in my whole judo career. . ."
Neil Adams: "I don't think I learned anything by doing them [referring to katas]. . ."
While he's referring to katas, I have yet to see someone do any uchi-mata or osoto-gari the uchi-komi way. Thus, practicing that way wastes precious time that most players don't have. But, I'm interested to hear your thoughts.
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u/TheEshOne Jul 04 '25
There's no drama here? He's just a guy with an opinion