r/judo • u/Eastern-Swordfish776 • Jul 06 '25
Other What’s your unpopular opinion on judo
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u/EchoingUnion Jul 06 '25
Judokas outside of Japan and Korea need to admit that they have completely overblown notions/expectations about "black belts" and shodans, and start applying the same standards that Japanese and Koreans have for the dan grades / black belts. A black belt was never meant to signify mastery.
Uchimatty has mentioned the origins of this overblown expectations of a black belt in Western countries before, but sadly I'm not hopeful on the old guard in most countries choosing to fall in line with the correct shodan promotion requirements, since most of them will have a "Well I grinded my way through 8 years to shodan, so you've gotta grind that long too." And goes on this dumb cycle of wilfull ignorance...
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u/Guivond Jul 06 '25
My brother got his black belt in Japan before I got my brown belt here. If he gets serious about training I expect him to get his san-dan before I reach shodan.
Got to admit the black belt definitely looks cool.
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u/Black6x ikkyu Jul 07 '25
Unfortunately, the marketing of BJJ has basically screwed everyone on this.
And somehow, while cross-training is great, I find that people who do and achieve their BJJ Black belt then let it affect the timing of anything else they teach.
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u/wowspare Jul 06 '25 edited Jul 06 '25
There's nothing new about the seoi nage / seoi otoshi meta in international judo competition. It's pretty much been this way for many years since the 2000s, it's just that vast majority on r/judo don't follow international competition so they have no idea what's going on internationally.
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u/euanmorse sandan Jul 06 '25
It blows my mind that people are so oblivious to the ever present drop technique epidemic
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u/themule71 Jul 06 '25
At my times (late '80s) it was extremely rare, the moment you touched the mat with both knees you entered ne-waza. I don't remember anyone getting a penalty for that, but points were rarely awarded. Regular one knee seoi otoshi was kinda advised against even if technically 100% legit and ippon-worthy if executed flawlessly.
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Jul 06 '25
Too many douchebags they only care about winning and and outpowering opponents
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u/Puzzled-Reserve-124 shodan Jul 07 '25
This… Randori is meant learn from each other in a safe setting. Not to throw someone straight to the ICU
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u/Latter_Reaction8546 Jul 06 '25
Don't feed the AI bots
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u/Rescue-a-memory Jul 06 '25
How do you know he is an AI bot?
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u/fleischlaberl Jul 07 '25 edited Jul 08 '25
What’s your unpopular opinion on judo : r/judo
491! replies
Unpopular judo opinions : r/judo
231 replies
What's your JUDO UNPOPULAR OPINION?? : r/judo
261 replies
How many replies has an average Post?
20?
How many posts are there on Judo Reddit which have more than 150 replies?
They are very rare.
What would you do as AI to get as many (elaborated) replies as you can get?
Exactly ! :)
What’s your unpopular opinion on judo : r/judo
357 replies
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u/CripplingDepressi0n4 gokyu Jul 06 '25
I've already stated this multiple times, but it's badly taught (generalization), meaning improper teaching methods or explanations based on "feel" or tradition instead of scientific studies.
A couple of days ago, I got scolded by an older judoka (not even the Sensei) for doing the "competitive" version of a technique instead of the "kata style" while in practice.
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u/TrustyRambone shodan Jul 06 '25
I generally tell people they should learn the classical way of doing it (you'll need to for grading) first, but that everyone has different body mechanics and adjusting it slightly may work better for them.
For me, that's one of the beautiful things about judo. Adaptation through pressure testing.
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u/CripplingDepressi0n4 gokyu Jul 06 '25
Yeah! I wholeheartedly agree with that! But the thing is, of course, techniques end up changing a little from person to person. Overcorrection to fit in with a "kata style" will only lead to hindering performance.
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u/HurricaneCecil Jul 06 '25
I tell anyone that “scolds” me to go fuck themselves. it’s a hobby, I’m an adult, and I’m paying to be there. don’t take that crap just because they’re further along in the sport than you are.
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u/CripplingDepressi0n4 gokyu Jul 06 '25
Yeah, don't take crap from anyone. I'm a film director, so I'm used to people giving unwanted input ALL THE TIME, but someone doing it angrily is definitely a no-no, doesn't matter if they've been doing something longer than you. Getting verbal is unacceptable, especially when someone doesn't know what they're doing. That just makes them look like a fool.
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u/Kataleps rokkyu + BJJ Purple Jul 06 '25
You should spend 10 years putting a square peg into a round hole before you even THINK about touching that round peg 😡😡😡😡😡😡😡.
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u/marek_intan Jul 06 '25
In general, do you find drilling the comp style to have positive effects on your training? Do you ask your uke to do anything different when you drill the comp variation?
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u/CripplingDepressi0n4 gokyu Jul 06 '25
Yeah, ever since I started tweaking some minor things here and there, I've multiplied the amount of throws I get in randori and competition by x10.
Nothing different from uke, standing uchikomis are nothing more than warmups for me, so nothing special there. But when it comes to moving and drilling, is when we make a BIG difference. Every competition I've been in, I've been able to completely dominate my opponents due to proper kumikata and slightly unorthodox entries. Everything feels more natural, like my mind isn't "adjusting" a technique for competition.
Highly recommend HanPan TV (IpponTV) and Decoding Judo.
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Jul 06 '25
Depending on the club, ne-waza is either taught extremely well or extremely poorly. I haven’t seen anything in between and I also train BJJ.
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u/Azylim Jul 06 '25
nornalize less uchikomis and conditioningmore randori please.
in fact, if we can do open mats like bjj does I think it would be incredible for technique development and creating good fighters
I trained bjj for a year, and improved fast when all I did was go and grind open mats. theres no reason why this cant work in judo as well as long as people are careful.
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u/criticalsomago Jul 06 '25
Kodokan has 4 hours of open mat randori 6 days a week, it works in Judo too.
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u/Azylim Jul 06 '25
i dont know if its a country culture or what, but in my admittedly small sample size (ontario), judo clubs here dont do alot of randori, much less dedicated open mats.
in my current university club its 30 min randori out of the full 2 hour class
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u/criticalsomago Jul 06 '25
Talk to your coach about it, if you get a small group together you can get it going.
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u/m0dern_baseBall Jul 06 '25
Issue is most of the judo clubs I’ve seen only have classes 2x a week. My bjj gym has 3 open mats a week on top of classes 4x a week
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u/freefallingagain Jul 06 '25
Too many non-judo types on the sub thinking that their latest idea is some revolutionary new insight.
Oh you mean IRL...
Well perhaps that training in Japan is some throwback to Edo-period training where uchideshi are signing blood oaths and osotogari is performed on trees.
It's really stupid. Some of the most hidebound training I've encountered has been at the Kodokans.
At the various machi dojo where I've taken some kids for training, the structure is fun and progressive, and the sensei consider holistic training plans for the kids there. We have had discussions on the applications of new developments in sport science on future training for easily over a decade now. I can't speak for university level and beyond, not taking any high performance trainees at that level.
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u/Wickle2545 ikkyu Jul 06 '25
BJA should bring back fighting for Kyu grades for seniors...
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u/Milotiiic Ikkyu | M1 -u60kg | British Judo Jul 06 '25
I agree - I’ve got a blue belt at my club that keeps talking about coaching courses and he can’t execute a single throw in live randori. (He’s not a small guy either)
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u/Wickle2545 ikkyu Jul 06 '25
We had two guys at our club that would never train, maybe show uponce a month, but the second there was a grading date posted, they would be there every session until the grading, then they dissapeared again, never seen either compete... (One dude even had GB backpatch with his name on which always tickled me, ) They did this all the way up to 1st Kyu and I haven't seen them since, easy been over a year since then.
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u/Milotiiic Ikkyu | M1 -u60kg | British Judo Jul 06 '25
Oh wow that’s the worst - not on the same level but we had a BJJ guy doing similar to that and he’s now won his dan grade on his first grading but we haven’t seen him since! Think it was bragging rights to have a ‘Judo Black Belt’ 🙄
The patch is for sure an annoying one too - I’m an active competitor (I don’t win a lot) and I’ve done a few opens but still would not get a GBR patch unless I compete abroad 😭
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u/Barhud shodan Jul 07 '25
Anyone with a patch who hasn’t been called up for their national squad is at best a bit mad and at worst trying to sell a fraud
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u/Rich_Barracuda333 yonkyu Jul 06 '25
In the BJC we compete from green onwards, alongside kata + theory requirements, so I don’t understand why the BJA, the more sport-styled association, doesn’t have Shiai for Kyu-rank progression.
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u/Wickle2545 ikkyu Jul 06 '25
I did not know that, very interesting i think having the early grades easily accessible but requiring some competitive experience for later Kyu grades is more than reasonable, it is after all a combat sport, I get shiai isn't for everyone, but being able to jump belts every 3 months with little real restrictions only harms the judoka if you ask me
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u/Rich_Barracuda333 yonkyu Jul 06 '25
It’s definitely not for everyone, but after a certain age or for specific circumstances, they can go the non-competitive route which takes longer, but generally requires more understanding of theory and kata.
It works by either 3 wins on the day, or 60 points which equates to 5 wins over a set period of time. Points/wins are only counted against own/higher grade & gender, and then once you have your syllabus and kata signed off you can be promoted (or after earning points if they’re signed off beforehand).
It’s still possible to jump grades should you meet all those requirements, at the last area grading there was someone who went from green to brown, but that’s because he won 3 at Green, 3 at blue and then even 2 at brown. But generally it would be say orange-green, fight at Green, potentially get to blue.
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u/An_Engineer_Near_You Jul 06 '25
They should really have no Gi judo like no Gi BJJ
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u/wowspare Jul 06 '25
There's a reason why it's not popular. d_rome explained it quite well:
The reason is because it's a waste of time for people who are serious about Judo competition. I don't mean that in a disparaging way. It's just the pinnacle of Judo competition is the Olympics. If Olympics are out it's World Championships. If that's out then it's competing internationally at a Grand Slam or Grand Prix event. Judo is very well established around the world as the world's most popular grappling sport. There would be no reason for the International Judo Federation to throw money at a No-Gi Judo division. They wouldn't get the best athletes. Besides, what rules would you have? Without IJF support the rest of the national Judo organizations around the world would have no reason to spend any money supporting it. Without national support then you are depending on independent Judo instructors who are mostly unqualified to teach no-gi Judo to grow it. I teach it but I'm hardly qualified. What makes me more qualified than many other Judo coaches (with no wrestling experience) is that I've spent way more time doing it. Once a week for about 6 years. That's about it. There's many Judo coaches out there that have never spent more than an hour or two doing Judo without the jacket.
I teach No-Gi Judo at my BJJ club but honestly I do it for the sake of my students. I'd rather just teach Judo in the Gi all the time. My students are BJJ guys that want to learn stand-up and they do both Gi and No-Gi. I feel like I have a duty to prepare them the best way I can and my best includes teaching No-Gi Judo. We have a wrestling coach at my club but I still tell my students, "For wrestling in no-gi, do what he tells you. Use no-gi Judo to fill in the gaps."
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u/Bluddy-9 Jul 06 '25
To sum it up, no gi judo isn’t productive for competitive judoka.
That’s not a good reason to not teach it. Imo no gi judo would increase the popularity of judo in the US (no idea about other countries). No gi is better for self defense and there is a much bigger population interested in self defense compared to competition. The bigger the population you can get interested, the better competitors you will get in the sport.
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u/wowspare Jul 07 '25
If you want to do nogi judo at your dojo there's nothing stopping you. Clubs are responsible for what happens at the club level.
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u/Ill_Improvement_8276 Jul 06 '25
We did no gi days at my dojo
it makes you so much more well rounded, helps with MMA, and is great for self defense 👍
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u/fintip nidan + bjj black | newaza.club Jul 06 '25 edited Jul 06 '25
I teach judo and BJJ.
My classes are just "gi/no-gi". One of each every night. One day we'll do newaza no-gi, tachi-waza gi; next night we'll invert it. Tachi-waza in the gi is focused on judo ruleset but we discuss jiu jitsu context as well. Tachi-waza in no-gi is a wrestling/judo hybrid focused on BJJ ruleset.
Newaza days are BJJ ruleset focused GI and no-gi, but we also review judo specific newaza from time to time.
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Jul 06 '25 edited Jul 06 '25
[deleted]
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u/Guivond Jul 06 '25
Where are these wrestling clubs for adults that isn't wrestling for bjj?
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u/Ill_Improvement_8276 Jul 06 '25
it makes you so much more well rounded, helps with MMA, and is great for self defense, and its fun
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u/calm_down_dearest Jul 06 '25
JFlo does a great job of showing how no Gi techniques can be modified and applied but iron sharpens iron at the end of the day. Using those techniques against a skilled judoka is different to a using them against a wrestler or jiu-jitsu practitioner who move in different ways
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u/zombosis Jul 06 '25
I agree with this but I feel it will cut out a lot of the moves
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u/Bluddy-9 Jul 06 '25
That’s part of the point. Focus on what will work on any opponent. Having no gi will help judo grow in the US.
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u/Wickle2545 ikkyu Jul 06 '25
I know the BJA have trialled this, not sure how much uptake it had nationally, or how much it was pushed, but I don't think it was very successful, I may be wrong. We started a no gi class at our dojo when they first announced it and it ran for well over a year. It had decent numbers at first but very quickly dwindled to nothing and was cancelled, it might have been more successful elsewhere though, maybe some of british judoka can chime in with their experience.
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u/ExtraTNT shodan (Tutorial Completed) Jul 06 '25
A competitive judoka and a blackbelt are different things… you can master a few techniques without having a blackbelt and you can get shodan, jet not be strong in competitions…
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u/Which_Cat_4752 ikkyu Jul 07 '25
I said this and I say this again. Americans think Judo is being badly taught. No, judo is being badly taught in America. Don’t act like Judo itself needs some revolution. Judo is fine in most Asian and Europe countries.
It’s American judo especially recreational judo needs better development.
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u/Wesjin Shodan | Yagura Nage Jul 06 '25
Ippon should be clear, clean, and immediate.
None of this "continuation of momentum" / rolling ippons.
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u/Mr_Hambre Jul 06 '25
It mostly Depends on the weight category. -66? Sure, clear, clean, immediate. +100? Nah, they are WAY TOO HEAVY to only rely on that. It's okay to give them a little of this continuation of momentum
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 06 '25
The big guys tend to hit big throws though. It’s smaller weightclass players who go after a lot of run through drop Seoi, gator rolling Kata Guruma and stop start sacrifice throws.
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u/Psychological-Will29 sankyu - I like footsies Jul 06 '25
When coaches say "think about how you can impliment judo into your every day life"
Ya dawg like I'm going to be thinking about slamming bodies while in the walmart beer section looking for a 6er of some pabst blue ribbon.
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u/TheMightyHUG Jul 06 '25
Could they be talking about applying the principles to other forms of conflict resolution? I know it's part of the idea with judo that its principles are a way of living, hence the "do"
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u/tabaskou shodan Jul 06 '25
More like applying "maximum efficiency, minimum effort" to your daily life...
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u/miqv44 Jul 08 '25
I use that by ordering food. Minimum effort on my part, maximum efficiency. Not sure Jigoro Kano had that in mind though but so far no one's complaining.
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u/metalliccat shodan Jul 06 '25 edited Jul 07 '25
You can practice mutual welfare and benefit by allowing the old man in front of you to select his beer first.
You can implement maximum efficiency by being vigilant at self-checkout and getting done quickly.
Obviously these are kind of corny examples, but the whole "-do" of "Judo" is finding everyday ways to implement mutual benefit and maximum efficiency and, by extension, promote a healthy society.
Edit: formatting
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u/BluebirdCold6418 Jul 06 '25
Actually that’s what some pro fighters describe. Everywhere you go you ask yourself „How would I throw that guy?“
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u/_Throh_ sankyu Jul 06 '25
Allowing leg grabs would just make people extra defensive and wouldn't make the sport better.
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u/Sword-of-Malkav Jul 06 '25
might make them learn to stand with some actual base, and not this whispy emptylegged nonsense they think is agile.
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u/osotogariboom nidan Jul 06 '25
People who did Judo pre 2012 don't really care one way or the other about leg grabs coming back.
People that started Judo after 2012 believe leg grabs are a cheat code that will instantly make them better or make their Judo more complete.
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u/Knobanious 2nd Dan BJA (Nidan) + BJJ Brown Jul 06 '25
I did judo pre 2012. And while I can live with them not coming back I'd prefer they did.
To me it seems odd that a grappling martial art ignores the most basic method the average noob would use to try and take someone down.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 07 '25
Tbf Greco Roman and several traditional folk styles have prohibitions against the legs. People do like throws.
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u/osotogariboom nidan Jul 06 '25
I think pretty much every club worth their salt will have a few old guys that came up with leg grabs being a normal part of Judo and have zero issues if someone wants to do randori with pre 2013 rules.
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u/Guivond Jul 06 '25
Every bjj club swears they can take me down if they shoot on my legs. It's literally only worked when the guy is a current D1 wrestler (im an office worker in my 30s). Bjj level standup with singles isn't nearly good enough to take down a component judoka who has dabbled in upper body control, gi or no gi.
I admit I was foolish enough to think I'd Chael Sonnen my way through a judo school in my 20s. It didn't work well for me.
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u/wowspare Jul 06 '25 edited Jul 16 '25
Doing seoi otoshi (drop seoi nage) does NOT cause knee pain / injury if done correctly. I'm sick of this "drop seoi wrecks your knees" myth being paraded around as fact.
Olympic bronze medalist Cho Jun Ho said that he has not seen a single judoka in his lifetime that injured their knees due to doing seoi otoshi. Falling badly during randori, or other mishaps during training , yes, but not to seoi otoshi.
And even in my experience as a Korean judoka, every judoka here learns and does seoi otoshi and neither my coaches nor I have heard of any one injuring their knees from doing seoi otoshi. We've all seen injured knees, but not tori getting injured from doing seoi otoshi. A badly performed seoi otoshi can of course injure your knees but that goes for pretty much any throw. There is proper technique to seoi otoshi.
Don't think of 'dropping' to your knees, but instead think of 'sliding' down onto your knees. Your lower body & hips should be sliding down forward and turning, as you enter the throw. In other words you are already lowering your level as you are entering forward. Akimoto's demonstration of seoi otoshi at 1:08 shows this sliding motion quite well.
And here World champion and Olympic silver medalist Cho Gu Haum shows on the HanpanTV channel what the orientation of your hips/feet should be like this. Another angle. These photos are assuming you are doing a right-handed seoi. Notice how the hips are leaning to the right. This is so that tori can pull uke down diagonally (not straight down). The right foot's ankle is flat on the mat while the left foot's toes are "alive", so that the left foot can drive off the mat to help with twisting tori's body diagonally. As the left foot hits the mat it should be driving off the mat already.
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u/kakumeimaru Jul 06 '25
Thanks for this. I had uncritically accepted that doing drop seoi nage was a terrible idea and that it would destroy my knees, but it seems that the problem lies more in how it is done than the throw itself; and as you say, any throw done badly can hurt you.
I forget who said it, it might have been Cho Jun-Ho, but someone observed that in South Korea, there are two kinds of judoka: drop seoi nage judoka and uchi mata judoka. Everyone over there does one or the other.
I'll have to research how to properly do drop seoi nage. Because of my earlier opinion, I had wanted to always do seoi nage standing up, but it seems that in many cases, that's just not very feasible (like if uke is significantly shorter than you, and particularly if they are both shorter and heavier). I had just sort of resigned myself to seoi nage being a throw that I would rarely use, especially on someone shorter than me or even the same height, but perhaps I can make use of it after all.
That being said, I think a lot of people do drop seoi nage badly. I remember it being done to me at my dojo, and as I recall, it often felt like I was being pulled straight down, going head-first into the tatami. The tatami comes at you fast with drop seoi nage, and if tori isn't pulling you down diagonally, it's even worse, because now you've got to twist yourself so you don't face-plant.
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u/Bluddy-9 Jul 06 '25
You’re probably right. Knee problems are a result of having weak knees like much of the western world has.
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u/Uchimatty Jul 06 '25
That’s a good point. If knees were half as fragile as most judokas think, Muay Thai as a sport would not exist. They are made to absorb impact.
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u/Highest-Adjudicator Jul 06 '25
Yes, but also, lots of repeated impact to the knees and repeated flexing/bending/kneeling can be detrimental to joint health (see Volleyball, Catching in baseball, etc.).
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u/pianoplayrr Jul 06 '25
Judo is more badass than BJJ, and I've been doing that BJJ stuff for over 15 years now 🤷
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u/AshamedVegetable7600 nikyu Jul 07 '25
The Olympics has actually been GOOD for Judo. Being in the Olympics means it is has a larger talent pool, and that larger pool means higher skill ceiling, meaning people are able to better explore and test out what works and what doesn't against higher level opponents.
Without the Olympics, it would end up being a bunch or clubs all trying to do things their own way, with less coordination and less competition, and the actual skill level would become watered down.
While obviously not perfect, the ijf rules largely seem to aim towards aggression and encouraging big throws. This incentive forces players to develop their throws, leading to a better level of throwing than would otherwise develop in a less "restrictive" rule set. If you want to get better at throwing & otherwise manipulating your opponent quickly and aggressively on your feet with clothes, it's fair to say that judo is your best bet.
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u/criticalsomago Jul 07 '25
Without the Olympics, we wouldn’t have full-time athletes dedicating decades to Judo. That tiny group of judokas training 6 hours a day, 6 days a week pushes the sport to new heights. In the end, we all benefit from their dedication.
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u/AntiSebticDan Jul 06 '25
Olympia ruined Judo.
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u/Mother-Estimate9507 Jul 06 '25
Banning leg throws and at one point banning the Korean Seoi is criminal towards the art.
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Jul 06 '25
Yeah it really isn’t what Kano intended it to be at all while the committee pretends it is and feed us their nonsense
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 06 '25
It’s made it huge though. Like man I wouldn’t have the chance to access it if it hadn’t the funding and everything behind it.
And I’m not even in a big Judo country.
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u/ObjectiveFix1346 gokyu Jul 07 '25
But then BJJ proved that you can get into every major city in the world within 20 years with zero funding. As long as the demand for a sport exists, you can grow it.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 07 '25
True enough, and Judo is not prominent in the Anglosphere at all.
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Jul 06 '25
Also I want to add the BJJ guys coming bringing their BJJ attitudes. And also not teaching “mutual benefit” as seen in many of the unfriendly nature of people on the international scene like not shaking each other hands and refusing to compete for reasons not judo related.
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u/Uchimatty Jul 06 '25 edited Jul 06 '25
BJJ attitude is more chill than judo attitude. I agree that BJJ guys in judo often have a bad attitude but I think that has more to do with selection bias. BJJ guys who work hard on their standup are a minority obsessed with looking manly while they grapple, never pulling guard etc. Many of them are cool, but a much bigger % of that group are assholes than BJJers in general.
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u/Weekly-Brother7821 Jul 10 '25
My experience is that BJJ culture (not including annoying keyboard warriors lol) is more chill too. I train at a gym with strong BJJ and Judo programs, and there’s a lot of cross-training. In general, the BJJ folks tend to approach Judo with a “hat in hand” mentality—they’re just trying to improve their stand-up game. The Judokas, on the other hand, usually show up to BJJ class with the intention of landing a bunch of monster throws on people with weak takedown defense, then they disappear for a few months—only to return and do it all over again.
Again, just my experience… maybe it’s different at other gyms.
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u/ChurchofMarx Jul 06 '25
Judo does a really trash job in conditioning compared to wrestling. Technique is one thing, but having an integrated conditioning routine like wrestling is really important and a lot of places don’t have that.
Another thing is sports aspect of Judo has led to the martial arts being diluted significantly. Same is the issue with TKD and Karate.
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u/Newbe2019a Jul 06 '25
Yes and no. I feel strength and conditioning should be done outside of Judo practice. There is only so much time to do actual Judo.
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u/teaqhs yonkyu Jul 06 '25
I agree. If I only have an hour to do judo, I want to do judo and not sit ups that I can do at home. Coaches should be more explicit about working out at least 2-3 times a week outside of judo
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u/TrustyRambone shodan Jul 06 '25
Uchikomi with sprint sets I can deal with. Once I had a coach that had us doing star jumps, Burpees and shit for 45 mins.
Like, I drove 40 mins each way for this? I can do this at home.
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u/ChurchofMarx Jul 06 '25
That happens even in wrestling, Muay Thai, and Boxing. It is just that these martial arts have specific workouts that are integrated with the training that helps them be better at that. Like Muay Thai and Boxing guys regularly do road work and jumping ropes. Wrestling guys do compound lifts.
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u/Guivond Jul 06 '25
I hate comparing judo to wrestling in the states.
Wrestling is a taxpayer funded martial art taught from middle school to college. They have full blown S&C programs to develop an athlete. In college and some states in high school, wrestling is damn near a full time job.
Judo is usually taught at your local YMCA by a volunteer or as a side class in a bjj school twice a week. If they started training like you would a real athlete, the class size would shrink by 90%.
They are not the comparable.
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u/Glittering-Profit232 Jul 10 '25
This is very good and even ttue for western europe. Yes judokas can be tough as nails. As atheltic as elite wrestler but on average judoka clubs are far far far inferior in conditioning and athleticism than wrestling clubs. Especially western europe and even usa like u say, so many hobbyist judokas black belt from 18 to 45 lets say who definitely have a hobbyist mindset and approach and dont train nearly as hard as wrestling im this aspect.
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u/ChurchofMarx Jul 06 '25
Most of the people do wrestling as part of school PT requirements.
Regardless, Boxing and Muay Thai has strength and conditioning as well. In my opinion, it should be integrated in all martial arts.
People may disagree, but this was a post about unpopular opinion and this is my unpopular opinion 🤷♂️
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u/Uchimatty Jul 06 '25
When you’re new you can get all your conditioning from randori - just do more randori. When you’re high level randori stops improving your judo much and all your gains are from S&C. But that S&C routine has to be specific to you. The workouts of an uchimata player and a seoi player will be totally different. Basically one size fits all conditioning is useful for exactly no one in judo. It works better in American wrestling because 90+% of people have the same shot spamming style.
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u/criticalsomago Jul 06 '25
The mindset in Judo is different from wrestling.
In wrestling, matches frequently last the entire 6 minutes, making superior conditioning a significant advantage. In judo, superior technique often ends the match within the minute.
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u/ChurchofMarx Jul 06 '25
That would make sense if the top Judo practitioners are not doing strength and conditioning. But they do strength and conditioning workouts equal to what top wrestlers do.
They do it because technique can only get you so far, especially in competitions where everyone more or less has equal level of skill.
There are also comments here saying that outside USA conditioning workouts are part of training. Which again indicates that strength and conditioning plays a really important role.
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u/AcaiMist Jul 06 '25
I disagree, judo is one of the combat sports where athletes are freakishly strong.
Outside of the US its on par with wrestling. I do agree with your point when it comes to USA judo but looking at Japan, France, mongolian, Korea. They have tons of integrated strength & conditioning.
My team actually has outdoor conditioning days.
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u/TyBo75 Jul 06 '25
Agreed. At a high level they are wrestling caliber but at a local level absolutely no comparison. Wrestling is seasonal for casuals but during that season it’s insanely conditioning focused.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 06 '25
I would agree for the opposite reason. I see a lot of Judo places that have suboptimal, overly long conditioning routines that don’t integrate Judo.
The good places, usually competition heavy with high level players, will have you doing hard drills rather than a lot of pushups and sit-ups and squats.
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u/iinaytanii Jul 06 '25
Same with BJJ. People talk about “adrenaline dumps” in competition. Funny how you never hear wrestlers talk about that. It’s just competition highlighting poor conditioning.
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u/quantifical Jul 06 '25
If you successfully throw someone but they roll you over with the momentum and end up on top, your ippon should become waza-ari and you better escape that pin quickly or else you’ll be ippon’ed
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u/thedomo619 Jul 06 '25
Single and double leg grabs should be legal, as long as they don’t double or single knee drop like a wrestling shoot.
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u/Mr_Hambre Jul 06 '25
Most modern Judokas won't teach or learn about "mutual friendship and benefit"
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u/_vfbsilva_ Jul 07 '25
Static uchi komi should be saved for beginners while performance athletes should always train the moving variations.
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u/judokalinker nidan Jul 06 '25
Hard randori is more effective for improving than the very light randori which many espouse.
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u/Guivond Jul 06 '25
Wrestlers also have a big decline in their late 20s/early 30s. Kamaru Usman is one of many examples of wrestlers who's body fail due to the harmful training. He can't run but was a ufc champ who had to lean into striking.
If you visit the kodokan or other big clubs you will see old people who still train. Are they going to the Olympics? No but they can still do techniques properly and do randori.
I'd rather be able to train when I'm in my 50s/60s than not be able to run in my 30s.
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Jul 06 '25
Getting repeatedly injured improves nobody
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u/Uchimatty Jul 06 '25
You get injured less with hard randori. A lot of studies across sports have shown injury rates are lower when training intensity matches competition intensity. The body conditions itself against its normal load. It’s when it’s exposed to a load it’s not used to that it breaks.
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u/Azylim Jul 06 '25
I dont disagree, but the way I see it is a risk:reward ratio.
hard randori means fatigue and higher injury risk. injury and fatigue means time off training, or worse permanent injuries.
1 high heart rate randori round might improve you more than 1 medium or low heart rate round, but for every high heart rate round you can do like 10 medium heart rate rounds
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u/judokalinker nidan Jul 06 '25
Kata can help to learn judo, but it's one of the least effective ways of doing so.
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u/Uchimatty Jul 06 '25 edited Jul 07 '25
Judo’s culture is worse than BJJ’s and is the sole cause of our slow growth. The warmups are excessive, annoying and scare off beginners. The elitism means we don’t have as many content creators. The lack of critical thinking is a constant source of frustration for people at all levels. Finally a lot of judokas have this crabs in a bucket mentality where they try to knock overly excited beginners down a few pegs instead of helping them achieve their goals.
There is tons of interest in judo and every gym I’ve trained at has a huge stream of new members, but the lack of instructors (due to elitism influencing NGB standards) mean the demand is never served and the culture causes massive attrition.
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u/Direct-Perception209 Jul 07 '25
I dunno, the rolling at my BJJ gym is far less concerned with helping newbies than randori at my Judo club. At the BJJ sparring, they kinda focus on "breaking" new white belts to prevent spazzes. At our Judo club, we do cooperative randori with the newbies until we're sure they're okay with taking falls - and i dont mean just "they can do breakfalls," but more of "we wont break their bodies if they get thrown uncooperatively." And from hopping gyms and dojos over the years I can tell this isn't unusual way how BJJ or Judo treats complete beginners. Just my 2 pence.
Your second point is spot on IMO. Lotta BJJ students i know have interest in judo, but no one can/will train them very much.
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u/The_One_Who_Comments nikyu Jul 07 '25
You know, that matches my experience. But being crushed in sparring when your brand new might just convince the beginner that they're starting something that works. Or maybe BJJ guys could stand to be nicer on new guys... No maybe about it haha.
The first month I'm more worried about the class structure than the randori style, though.
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u/ZardozSama Jul 06 '25
Picking some large sweaty dude's chest hair out of your teeth after being involuntarily held down by them while some 70 year old eastern European guy with DIY prison quality tattoos yells at you is just a much better way spend a Wednesday evening than watching Netlfix.
END COMMUNICATION
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u/Ciarbear nikyu | u66kg | 35+ Jul 07 '25
It's ok that it's a sport, any grown adults getting into fights on the regular that they need more self defense than the sport offers need to revaluate their life style.
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u/JaladinTanagra ikkyu Jul 07 '25
My unpopular opinion is that we need to divorce judo (and other martial arts in general) from the idea of self defense and focus on sport. Sport is what keeps the interest alive. Too many people have these notions that what they're doing is going to be super effective at protecting them in the streets, while they live in some peaceful suburb. Even if you were a master of every martial art, we don't live in a vacuum, and all anyone needs to do is graze you with a knife and a lot of your training goes out the window. We need to stop comparing styles and their efficacy. Each style exists in its own little world and if it makes you happy to train that and use it in its appropriate way, then awesome. I personally don't care if we have leg grabs or not; if anything I like that my opponent can't grab my leg, because it emboldens me to try more exciting throws. There are enough techniques and variations left for the GAME of randori to be fun without leg grabs. If you're so keen on doing something different, then go do something different. Go wrestle, go do BJJ, go do Sambo, go do MMA. Sports evolve. They change over time. People will always game the rules. New metas will develop when rules change. New innovators will force rule changes. Life IS change. Reverting back to some more archaic form of the sport doesn't revive some lost respect it had, it alienates the people currently practicing the modern rules. People need to accept what is, instead of wishing for things to be different. Nobody is forcing you to do judo if you hate the ruleset so much. If you stop looking at judo as some deadly martial art that doesn't change over time and is currently being taught in a way that excludes vital information, and instead look at it as a sport that is alive and dynamic, you will stop being so miserable about it. It's supposed to be fun.
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u/balletbeginner gokyu Jul 06 '25
Dojos shouldn't use IJF rules for lower level competitions.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 06 '25
How do you even organise competitions then? The standardisation makes things so simple.
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u/coffeevsall Jul 06 '25
Competition is important, but it killed so much of the art. Both for fighting and of self development.
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u/Dsaroeth Jul 06 '25
It's ok to focus on drills and ukemi and avoid randori altogether if competition doesn't appeal to you as a judoka. Every club should offer randori, but not every judoka needs to compete.
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u/LastAd2695 Jul 06 '25
Dojos trying to enforce you to fight the japanese way. I personally disagree with that. I was never comfortable with Japanese style so I switched to georgian. Had better throws.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 07 '25
Are you actually fighting the Georgian way though? It is easier said than done without a coach from that style.
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u/LastAd2695 Jul 07 '25
I train in azerbaijan and mostly you meet 3 types of styles : pure japanese, sambo and georgian. Our coach teaches us a lot of georgian grip fighting grips and we drill it a lot.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 07 '25
Ah, that's completely different then. You are straight up in one of the ideal places to learn that particular style, so go for it. Become the next Kotsiev.
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u/Rapton1336 yondan Jul 07 '25
Most judo drills are actually applied strength and conditioning exercises and not proper for skill acquisition.
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u/No-Height-5699 Jul 07 '25
There’s no reason to do kata to improve judo skills other than stupid “tradition” (this applies to karate and taekwondo too)
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u/ColeMaestro309 Jul 07 '25
I’ve been practicing the sport for 13 years now and this is my very cold take. I think seoi nage is a boring technique because everyone does it in competition. Not denying its effectiveness but I find it boring to watch seoi players unless there is some interesting variation.
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u/lazi_the_first sankyu + BJJ blue belt Jul 06 '25
Pinning and the reflex to turn on ones belly are stupid.
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u/Knobanious 2nd Dan BJA (Nidan) + BJJ Brown Jul 06 '25
I agree with the belly bit. Not sure why pinning is pointless.
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u/Sword-of-Malkav Jul 06 '25
pinning widely accepted in almost every part of the world as acceptable victory condition.
now... attacking someone in turtle? THATS stupid. My inclination every time is just to snatch someone's ankle and turn over on them. I cant imagine I'm alone in this instinct.
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u/KuzushiWhore Jul 06 '25
Judo being “watered down” is the older generations mainstream opinion, and the ruleset being focused on scoring on big throws actually has solid benefits such as encouraging athleticism, clever/ dynamic movement, and deeper understanding of turn throws earlier in development.
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u/disposablehippo shodan Jul 06 '25
Judo wasn't developed for street fights and won't help you any more than any other martial art if some psycho unleashes his meth-powers on you.
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u/Guivond Jul 06 '25
Judo helps for the streetz dog.
I slipped one day in the rain and did a perfect ukemi. The only thing injured was my pride.
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u/disposablehippo shodan Jul 06 '25
true, for fighting gravity it's still the best MA out there! Did an Ukemi over the hood of a car that hit me.
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u/No-Parsnip9347 Jul 06 '25
Coming from Wrestling, BJJ, Muay Thai, and MMA.
Why is Judo so expensive compared to these arts in America? Its not uncommon to see the above mentioned Martial Arts to he 100-150 per month. 200ish at the high end. Most Judo schools I have seen were either insanely cheap to free at a ymca or 250 minimum. Rarely anything in between. Only speaking for east coast. Boston to Virginia.
Also Judo is a super legit martial art. I think the super traditional sense CAN turn people interested off. Lowkey kind of dorky but YMMV.
I haven’t meant alot of super stud athletes, but that may be a cultural thing, a scarcity of Judo gyms, or a majority of them being in other combat sports in America. Im sure it’s different at a super legit gym with national ranked athletes etc. same thing with Sanda in America too.
I love it. But as another combat sport athlete who cross-trains in Judo, I see how it can be a turn off for some.
This is not meant to bash Judo, I’m still new. Just what I’ve noticed.
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u/Mr_Hambre Jul 06 '25
In USA you may say, because in most countries of America most dojos are basically free. In my city most dojos are founded by the government and the Ministery of Sports
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u/BebetoPieroni Jul 06 '25
Judo, Sambo, BJJ and others need to have the same confederation and comum events, only with different rules
And needs to be learning and teaching together
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu Jul 07 '25
Imagine telling boxers they need to play with kickboxers for ‘completeness’ because you can kick their legs or some shit.
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u/wowspare Jul 06 '25
Those who talk most often about how they wished leg grabs came back, usually tend to be the worst at judo.
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u/Knobanious 2nd Dan BJA (Nidan) + BJJ Brown Jul 06 '25
BJJ stand up is actually better than Judo. (In terms of it's rules)
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u/_Throh_ sankyu Jul 06 '25
The man has actually an unpopular opinion and gets downvoted, the ones with popular opinion gets upvoted 😂
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u/Knobanious 2nd Dan BJA (Nidan) + BJJ Brown Jul 06 '25
That's what I get for having Autism lol answer a question literally based on what it asks for.... I do this at work too lol
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u/_Throh_ sankyu Jul 06 '25
I can't say I agree completly but you hit a few points and thats the reason I train BJJ, I see it as "freestyle judo".
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u/unkz Jul 06 '25
People do not get the concept of asking for unpopular opinions. This is a legit unpopular opinion, people! It should be voted to the top!
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u/Guivond Jul 06 '25
Unpopular as heck.
Take my up vote although I wholly disagree with you.
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u/Dense_fordayz Jul 06 '25
Idk why you are getting downvoted it's true. You can do any throw in BJJ that you can in judo but also do leg grabs and wrestling moves. So the stand up is possibilities are better
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u/Knobanious 2nd Dan BJA (Nidan) + BJJ Brown Jul 06 '25
I suspect I'm being downvoted by people who think I mean
The quality of stand up in BJJ is better than Judo (which I do not)
Or
By people who are very much of the mind set BJJ can't do anything better than Judo.
Both sports have their silly rules.
I generally prefer BJJ stand up just more fun for me. I can play any game I like
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u/Squancher70 Jul 06 '25
Oh you are getting down voted for this one! Haha.
I tend to agree. My trash cobbled together Bjj wrestle/Judo style always does better VS my Judo friends.
In a general sense you just have more options. I can shoot singles, doubles, hold the pants, but more importantly Im not trying to get an ippon.... clumsily tossing someone onto all fours is just as valuable as throwing them on their back....and it's way easier.
It's not that Judo is inferior, how it's trained for Judo competition is not optimal for just "getting it to the ground".
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u/Knobanious 2nd Dan BJA (Nidan) + BJJ Brown Jul 06 '25
Yup I just wanted my one liner to sound controversial due to the post title lol. Seems people took the bait.
I say this as someone who plays a very traditionally Judo style game in BJJ with success.
And iv been grappling for over 25 years. So it's not coming from a place of ignorance
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u/_Botko_ Jul 06 '25
How can you claim that slamming a guy that has jumped on you into closed guard while standing be illegal as a better standing rules than in judo?
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u/Knobanious 2nd Dan BJA (Nidan) + BJJ Brown Jul 06 '25 edited Jul 06 '25
BJJ rewards points for throws that result in you maintaining control after the throw. Judo doesn't care if your throw lands you in a terrible position as long as their back touched the mat.
BJJ allows pretty much any grips
BJJ you have to learn how to deal with someone pulling guard on you. Judo players can get totally nullified by a grappler doing this who's better at ground work than them.
BJJ allows standing submissions
My point is that in many areas the rules of BJJ for stand up are more relaxed and this makes it harder to game the rules in standup.
The only rule in BJJ I don't like is no slamming, especially if someone jumps guard. But between the two Judo has more silly rules.
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u/_Botko_ Jul 06 '25
1st point. you might be right but I can't remember single throw that puts you in a bad position if you succeed.
2nd point. I would agree because there is too much judo matches that ends up on shidos because of a grip fight.
3rd point. You mentioned pulling a guard like it is feasible tactic that should be encouraged. I would totally disagree with you on that point.
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u/Uchimatty Jul 06 '25
I thought this at one point too, but after living in a bad area and having some self defense situations I no longer agree. I never want to land “in control” of someone ever again. I don’t know if he has friends or a weapon, so I don’t want to waste time controlling him on the ground. The most practical use of takedowns is to slam someone as hard as you can, as fast as you can, then roll away and run to safety.
In an MMA context you are correct. But from a practical standpoint judo has the least worst ruleset of any grappling sport. I say least worst and not best because there are obviously still many holes - the entire concept of drop throws is not practical in real life.
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u/Green_Painting_4930 Jul 06 '25
I want no gi judo with leg grabs. And yes ik ik “we already have wrestling of all kinds” but this would be even better
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u/Guivond Jul 06 '25
Randori doesn't need to be at the end of class when everyone is exhausted.
This leads to strain related injuries and is outdated.
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u/bom_tombadill Jul 06 '25
We should learn leg grabs in class even if we can’t use them in competition