r/judo • u/pianoplayrr • 26d ago
Other Why the animosity towards BJJ?
I'm just wondering why I often see Judo people ragging on BJJ people. I see this a lot when a BJJ guy posts a video demonstrating a Judo throw. In the comments there will usually be a bunch of angry Judo people saying things like "BJJ = basically just Judo", and things like that.
I have been noticing this for years, but why?
I think both arts are awesome, and it would be great if we could just combine them into one big, beautiful art!
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u/Prudent_Research_251 rokkyu 26d ago
People who discuss martial arts tend to be pretty insufferable outside certain communities
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u/Otautahi 26d ago
You’re talking about two scenarios.
- Most judo guys generally respect BJJ and a lot cross train. Very little animosity in my experience, especially on the mats.
- When BJJ guys post judo throws they’re usually so bad that they get criticised the same way any bad technique would.
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u/powerhearse 26d ago
In my experience getting into Judo there was definitely negativity and animosity toward BJJ from the older generation - even my coach lol. Though I partially cant blame them for that given the very negative series of experiences they had with BJJ guys attending to learn "judo tricks". Injuries, stupid shit, bad attitudes. The whole bag
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u/Otautahi 26d ago edited 26d ago
I agree - about 10 years ago we had alot of BJJ guys coming to cross train with no interest in training judo.
It was incredibly resource intensive having assistant coaching staff teach one-on-one ukemi, basic throws etc and have them disappear after a few weeks. Many were pretty combative/sceptical about whether techniques would work, lots of “I would take your back” type comments, etc …
Basically expected us to run private sessions for them. It burned up alot of goodwill.
Most BJJ people coming now have a genuine interest in cross training and a more open approach. It’s much more positive.
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u/Crunchy-gatame ikkyu - too dumb to quit 26d ago
You could say the same about judo guys cross training in BJJ with no interest in sport BJJ.
They come to fundamentals class, rag doll and smash all the white belts. Or, go to advanced class and get schooled by the purple belts on the ground only to say things like, “that’s illegal in judo” or “the ref would stand us up”. Then disappear after a couple months claiming they don’t want to learn inverted back takes or leg locks.
They just come to use the mats and its members for extra nage komi for $275/month. 😂
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u/uselessprofession 25d ago
In my experience as a BJJ guy who dropped into a couple of Judo classes at a different gym, everyone was very friendly and welcoming, the head coach himself walked over to give me a couple of tips as I was having problems with tripping people.
After that in randori I kept getting thrown but everyone was good natured about it. A couple of guys remarked that they could see I was reflexively going for a leg grab but pulling back as it was against Judo rules, which was pretty funny to watch.
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u/powerhearse 25d ago
A couple of guys remarked that they could see I was reflexively going for a leg grab but pulling back as it was against Judo rules, which was pretty funny to watch.
I had this exact same experience...couldn't shake the collar drag to ankle pick tendency for ages, or the ankle pick finishes to failed throws
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u/Truth-Miserable gokyu 25d ago
Thats not negativity and animosity, thats them drawing from their learned experiences and warning/avoiding lol
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u/powerhearse 25d ago
No, it was definitely negativity and animosity. It wasn't just a rational caution, it was outright hostile view toward BJJ. Which is still the case to some degree. I came in as a BJJ brown and was accepted with some caution - the caution was rational but a good half of the viewpoints were not
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u/OsotoViking sandan 26d ago
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Yep. This. Being good at groundwork does not mean that you are good at throwing, and vice versa.
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u/Baron_De_Bauchery 26d ago
I'm a black belt in both and I call it basically just judo as well. If I had animosity towards it I wouldn't have spent more than a decade doing it. That said I do both for the "art" and while I have competed I am indifferent to the sports. So from my perspective, in a technical sense, they are basically the same. As sports they are very different. And bjj does not have the philosophical "do" aspect that judo has although individual teachers may have their own teachings.
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u/Judotimo Nidan, M6-81kg, BJJ blue III 26d ago
My experience is the same. The main difference is the Do. To me it is evident the moment you step onto the Tatami
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u/Truth-Miserable gokyu 25d ago
Yes. And a BJJ person would have no idea of what you even mean by that. BJJ wants to talk about being "all love" and "family" but Ive gotten way more of that vibe from judo places than BJJ ones
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u/Truth-Miserable gokyu 25d ago
This! Several people I've heard use the phrase BJJ = Basically Just Judo.....literally have blackbelts in both and know what tf they're talking about on the matter. They don't hate or have animosity towards bjj or they wouldn't have bothered getting the black belt, but it also means they can be honest about their observations
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u/stonedturtle69 bjj 26d ago edited 25d ago
I'm a BJJ practitioner. I love ground grappling. I'm annoyed by the complete ignorance that so many BJJ practitioners still display of their art's history. Like not knowing that 90% of their techniques come from Judo and that Helio Gracie didn't invent the guard.
I dislike BJJ culture, the patches, the sponsorships, the weird Guru mentality of coaches, the Gracies, and the theatrical entertainment-focused trash talking, especially in No-Gi events. Its all so commercialised.
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u/flummyheartslinger 25d ago
The guru mentality, or "bow to your sensei", is an especially weird aspect of BJJ considering that they use judo and the Japanese roots of BJJ as an excuse for it. In reality it's more a typical Western interpretation of Asian mysticism based on American Kung Fu and Ninja movies than actual real life.
I trained BJJ in Japan and not once did anyone call the instructors sensei.
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u/Truth-Miserable gokyu 25d ago
Facts. The gracies were pretty much literally a cult (like even had weird "breeding programs" with the maids who lived on their compound, having nowhere else to go, as well as with the wives of students)
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u/Truth-Miserable gokyu 25d ago
Nah sorry, I disagree. There are genuine problems that need addressing and this "both sides" point of your argument is nonsense.
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u/Knobanious 2nd Dan BJA (Nidan) + BJJ Brown 26d ago
I respect BJJ enough to have done it for 7 years... But at the same time a lot of BJJ videos showing what are essentially butchered Judo throws are just bad.
Iv rolled with a good number of BJJ black belts and on the ground they are really good... But they just don't train standing much.
So you can both criticise crap BJJ throw videos of which there are a lot and still respect the general overall game of BJJ.
Personally watching bad BJJ throw videos and then commenting on what they have done wrong is a guilty pleasure of mine 😂
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u/d_rome 26d ago edited 26d ago
It started with the Gracie's with their dojo storming, wild claims of being undefeated, and winning UFC 1 with everything that is taught in Judo and calling it something else.
Also, BJJ has a tendency to claim anything as Judo as BJJ. Two examples of this is people claiming what John Wick does in the movies is BJJ. It's not. Several years ago the NFL QB Tua Tagovailoa started taking Judo lessons in the off season to help with concussions. When training camp rolled around the story became "Tua learned Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to learn how to break fall".
Really though, apart from shared history and shared techniques, I see them as two separate sports.
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u/powerhearse 26d ago
Two examples of this is people claiming what John Wick does in the movies is BJJ.
His primary coaches are the Machado brothers, with some supplementary training with Dave Camarillo for his throws - so technically most of his training is from a BJJ background. For what it's worth lol, I haven't really seen anyone care about it much either way
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u/d_rome 26d ago
It was an example, but quite frankly you are correct and I'm more upset at the Judo community on that one. The whole conversation on Tua taking Judo started when Jason Morris contacted Mike Florio on Pro Football Talk (very popular NFL talk show in the US). Mike Florio wrote an article on it. I think Gary Goltz did an interview related to this. This was in February in 2023. I was like, "Cool! Judo is getting national exposure."
Next thing I hear six months later on an exclusive interview with Tua on NFL on Fox is how he's been taking Brazilian Jiu Jitsu lessons to help with breakfalling. My reaction was something like this. How is it that no one in the Judo community in Miami, California, or Hawaii managed to take advantage of an opportunity to put Judo in the forefront for two seconds?
Whatever real or perceived animosity there is towards BJJ from Judo folks, the bottom line is that as a whole the BJJ community is better at business in the US.
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u/powerhearse 26d ago
Yeah I absolutely dont blame Judo old schoolers for still being upset about Gracie era BJJ attitudes. Even the modern culture is suboptimal in many ways, especially the push towards prize fighting style competition
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u/Truth-Miserable gokyu 25d ago
Thats a fact, but it makes sense because thats what the gracies pushed really hard for in the early 90s
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u/mistiklest bjj brown 26d ago
Same with Tua. I'm pretty sure he was training with Ricardo Liborio, whose BJJ achievments are much more substantial than his Judo.
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u/Tonyricesmustache 26d ago
Saying Tua learned BJJ to help with concussions is the height of irony 😂
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u/Truth-Miserable gokyu 25d ago
Tbf John Wick is probably doing Sambo, given that he was from the eastern european "Ruska Roma" organization, but sambo is obviously heavily judo as well. But damn actually i think id argue that sambo brings more unique things from outside judo to its practice than bjj does.
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u/monkeycycling 26d ago
The tldr version is it's probably older judo guys that had their classes shrink due to bjj popularity and now watch them incorrectly demonstrate throws from judo. In my experience, the hostility was kinda in the other direction where bjj guys think a lot of judo is useless or leaves you compromised. But generally, no one cares anymore and train whichever they can get access to.
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u/Truth-Miserable gokyu 25d ago
Nope. Some bjj places will still literally bully you over training elsewhere lol
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u/powerhearse 26d ago
There used to be a lot of shit slung at Judo from BJJ during the Gracie era, and a lot of older Judoka remember that. That's one of the big reasons. That plus Judo culture is quite conservative and very different to BJJ culture
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u/dougi-boy 26d ago
You throw them effortlessly and this constant comment always emerges "yeah... All that effort and I just got your back". Buddy, I lovingly, nicely, delicately and slowly put you on the ground because your standing game and break falling SUCK. When I go a bit intense on BJJ guys they land so hard they're completely disoriented for like 2-3 seconds, no back taken then...
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u/juicemin nikyu 26d ago
Then they call you a spaz lmao
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u/Truth-Miserable gokyu 25d ago
Ive seen the freaking spazziest bjj white belts lol. Last time I cross trained, a 300 lb man insisted on throwing triangle chokes directly over my eyelids
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u/Successful-Area-1199 26d ago
Because bjj is a degenerate art full of weed smoking steroid using flat earth types. The culture is repulsive. (Dojo owner who really really tried coexisting)
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u/Suomi1939 26d ago
This is hilarious…I have a black belt in Karate that I received when I was 19 and my instructor was a Japanese man in his 60s who ran a very traditional dojo. I was floored when I started BJJ in my 30s and saw software bros mixed with unemployed stoners and people who skipped parts of classes because they didn’t feel like it applied to them. Starting Judo was like coming home again. I still do BJJ, so I have nothing against it, but I definitely see a different clientele between the two gyms.
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u/Baron_De_Bauchery 26d ago
You know, I don't care if people smoke weed as I'm not convinced it's necessarily worse than alcohol. But I'll tell you what, I've seen a number of people rolling high in a way that would never be acceptable at the judo dojos I've trained at in regards to weed or if you came in smelling like the inside of a whisky bottle. Maybe it's safe, I don't know, but doing the things we do makes me uneasy when people are intoxicated.
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u/freshblood96 bjj 26d ago
It also exists in BJJ. Even worse.
Just because Judo banned leg grabs around 2010 they already think Judo is "watered down" and "ineffective" but they also fucking fear that Judo black belt who's in the blue belt division lol.
But they're the loud minority. Same as Judokas who hate BJJ.
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u/P-Two yonkyu/BJJ Brown Belt 26d ago
I mean, factually speaking Judo is watered down competitively from when you could do double legs. That doesn't mean it's not incredibly effective though!
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u/Baron_De_Bauchery 26d ago
Still have to demonstrate leg grab stuff for gradings where I am, which means you still have to learn them. And especially for dan gradings you'd be expected to show realistic tsukuri with good kuzushi and use them in combinations and as counters like you would if competing. So it's not like I can just do a shitty double leg and call it done. And while I wish leg grabs were still allowed, IMO if you have good judo adding leg grabs isn't difficult. It lifts restrictions on me rather than puts them on me. Sure doing no-gi against a wrestler is a challenge as that's an environment they are more comfortable with. But doing gi against a wrestler isn't as challenging as it's much easier to stuff their shots and sprawl if that's even necessary. But against most people with just bjj experience? Gi or no-gi them grabbing my legs doesn't worry me at all. Core fundamentals are what makes a great judoka. Just like with groundwork you can put a load of restrictions on a bjj black belt and they should still destroy a lot of less experienced guys on the ground.
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u/freshblood96 bjj 26d ago
I mean I kinda agree with the watered down thing but yeah. It's not like Taekwondo where it descended from being "foot fencing" with full powered, fast kicks down to just playing foot tag.
It still hurts getting hit with the planet lol.
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u/Truth-Miserable gokyu 25d ago
Its silly of them because most only really even know the wrestling shoot takedowns because thats what they got taught in bjj, so they have no frame of reference for what judo leg grabs were like
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u/freshblood96 bjj 25d ago
You're right. At least in no gi.
In gi, however, the double leg and single leg is done the same way as Judo (at least from what I can see in the videos). Getting good grips and utilizing the gi to off balance your opponent are important.
My favorite is when I pull the collar down, and when they try to posture up I go down and shoot for the double leg. It's quite similar to the morote gari demo video shown by the Kodokan YouTube channel.
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u/IronBoxmma 26d ago
I say this as a judo and bjj guy, most bjj guys judo sucks, mine included
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u/mega_turtle90 26d ago
And most Judo guys newaza skill suck
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u/mega_turtle90 26d ago
Lol got down voted for speaking the truth
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u/Truth-Miserable gokyu 25d ago
This whole part of the subthreads silly considering its basically just judo lol
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u/satanargh sankyu 26d ago
"my martial art is the best martial art" syndrom, + grappling in general is gaining a lot of traction
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u/estrela_vermelha 26d ago
I don’t necessarily dislike BJJ in itself, but rather the social culture around it as a couple of other people already touched upon. A ton of arrogant machismo, which is less prominent in judo. It’s a big reason why I chose judo instead.
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u/darthmaulsdisciple 26d ago
Because 85% of BJJ dudes are unathletic insufferable losers
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u/pianoplayrr 26d ago
Maybe slightly more athletic than someone who doesn't train anything though right?
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u/bigadultbaby 26d ago
Lot of diplomats in the comments. It’s because bjj is lame
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u/YouthSubstantial822 25d ago
As someone who does BJJ, for the better part it is lame to watch. It is fun to do.
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u/Ambatus pt 26d ago edited 25d ago
As others have mentioned, that animosity is not universal or one-sided. Especially here, where most are from the US, and consequently most practice both, there will always be a more conciliatory reply.
Trying to go beyond what was already said, let me be the bad guy and list a couple of things on why there could be "animosity", with the caveat that saying them isn't agreeing with them (not necessarily, at least):
- BJJ/GJJ came from Judo, with a change of focus in the 50s or so and another big one in the 90s: for a long time it seemed that it was done for, but the post-UFC world proved very popular. Insofar as there was always a competition between Judo and Jiu-jitsu in Brazil, it's not surprising that it exists wherever BJJ becomes popular.
- Traditionally, Judo has an "hegemonic" approach to grappling, with standing and ground work, although this has been progressively limited in terms of competition rules. This means that there is an innate resistance to "let's combine the two!", because this often starts from the assumption that Judo is the "throws" and BJJ "the groundwork". In other words, the "creation of a big, beautiful art" is Judo.
- There is actual competition for finite resources (people). We can all hold hands about how great both are and how they complement each other, but the reality is that the growth of BJJ implies the shrinking of Judo outside of scenarios where there are large numbers of new people joining in - which is not the common scenario. In countries where BJJ thrives, it will not only grow in the areas it captured (adult learners), it will encroach on those that Judo depends on (kids programmes). Again, that after 10 years of practicing BJJ some people train "Judo throws" in a 1-per-month "Judo for BJJ" class doesn't change the dynamics of it (it's actually another indicator of it being true).
- Each martial art has it's own mythology. Judo certainly has it (the "competition against jujutsu that we won in the 19th century", etc). BJJ also has it, and parts of it are hostile to Judo, either directly or indirectly: the "lineages" from "non-Kodokan secret schools that practiced Fusen-ryu", the "Judo is an Olympic sport that lost the way, BJJ kept the spirit of the samurai", etc, etc. You get a lot of these things repeated by BJJ "thinkers" (youtubers, infliuencers, etc), attributing to BJJ things that exist and were popularised by Judo more than a century ago.
- There's a certain degree of envy as well: BJJ has a much more popular "social" presence, to the extent that it became, in some countries and growing, a sort of "default" that eclipses everything else: you get Judo techniques labeled as "BJJ", you get Judo-trained fighters associated with BJJ, you can't do a hold or an arm-lock without it being "BJJ". The more one spends time in social media, the more this builds up.
Obviously, not everything here is present everywhere, at the same time, or "true". I think that the degree to which they are understood (not necessarily shared) depends on the actual situation of each, especially in terms of training both or not.
NOTES
- Maçaneiro, G. G. B. (2012). Do Judô ao Gracie Jiu-Jitsu: A influência do judô Kodokan na idealização e no desenvolvimento do Jiu-Jitsu brasileiro. The Gracies followed the "prize fighting" approach and removed the "social aspect" of Judo, and without the degree of standartisation that a central ruling body enforced. By keeping outside of the Kodokan, they were able to remodel GJJ (which went to a period of real risk of disappearing) to the growth with the UFC 1.
- https://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comments/ws5gc2/kanos_vision_for_judo_as_a_practical_martial_art/ has a discussion that is partially on this.
- https://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comments/wv1krn/is_us_judo_dying/ for a discussion, including on different takes of what does BJJ growth in the USA mean for Judo
- https://web.archive.org/web/20180706070356/http://global-training-report.com/myths.htm for a list , also this post on Drysdale's "Opening the Closed Guard" work.
- ~~I don't have the studies here with me but~~ I think it would be hard to think of a martial art that is so intensely linked with commercialisation, "lifestyle" economics, and social media presence. UFC, in a way, was a commercial for the Gracies, and BJJ their commercial offering. Spencer, Dale C. "From many masters to many students: YouTube, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and communities of practice." Jomec Journal 5 (2014) is an interesting read on this,
Consequently, many North Americans were inspired to learn the art in 1993 when the 78-kilogram Royce Gracie (Helio’s son) readily defeated three opponents in a single night on his way to winning the inaugural UFC (...) The guard is considered the true ‘essence of Jiu Jitsu’. When Helio Gracie fought the Japanese grandmaster Masahiko Kimura (who considerably outweighed Helio), Japanese onlookers stated that they had never seen such techniques and that they were foreign to Judo [NOTE: the guard already existed in Judo]. (...) As a form of new social media, YouTube effectively democratizes the art of BJJ, making it available to anyone who has an Internet connection and computer.
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u/miqv44 26d ago
I think you are approaching this from the wrong angle- BJJ since it's creation (rebranding kosen judo and pretending it's something new) has been disrespecting Judo and Japan as a country in general. There was some very unhealthy rivalry and I'm not pretending judo people were without a fault too. Read up about the Masahiko Kimura story and how their trip to Brazil looked like, see who was being more respectful then. So if you see angry judokas- its often leftovers or some reaction to disrespect they had from BJJ side.
I wish I could post the picture of my facebook chat with a "respected bjj practitioner from north of USA, father of 2 daughters and generally most chill bloke in ther academy" after I politely said that he's getting terminology wrong for one takedown (I think he mistook harai goshi with taiotoshi, which sure is common, both throws can look similar to someone untrained).
So you have to trust me this reaction from him in private DMs I got from him happened:
"What are you going to do about it tough guy
Come on fat boy, respond.
Fuck your mother"
It was in BJJ Fanatics group, where most people are chill and appreciate input from judokas so I'm picking an exception here but I was honestly shocked a father of 2 girls is acting this way, I contacted his head coach about it and he promised to talk to the guy about it.
Last thing I want is judo and BJJ being combined. Having any ties to a criminal Helio Gracie would be like getting an uncurable skin disease to me. Let people crosstrain if they need to, I don't need to. It has a very unhealthy culture, often straight up a culture of disrespect, with white belts being bullied by blue belts or older white belts, everyone acting like a child trying to impress their abusive, alcoholic father just to get a new stripe on their belt. "Look at me coach, I submitted him! Remember this when you think about promoting people!". Especially in my country it is like that.
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u/Truth-Miserable gokyu 25d ago
You really hit the nail on the head with a lot of it. A lot of the culture are insufferable assholes (even the ones with "chill" reputations), and Helio Gracie should definitely be looked at as a criminal people should wanna distance themselves from
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u/Adept_Visual3467 26d ago edited 26d ago
Could partly be fear. Long time judoka that focused on newaza which changes the way others compete against you. If you are that much better on the ground, they hesitate to attempt their big throws in the center of the mat and tend to hit them near the boundary line. I remember watching Jimmy Pedro, Jr compete and some of his opponents would take a penalty by crawling off the mat rather than having to deal with his ground game. That changes the whole fight dynamics when you run away. Tables got turned on me when I was in the finals of the NYAC tournament against Russian army team captain. Every American before me facing a Russian in the finals got dragged (or suckered) to the ground and arm barred. So when my opponent attempted an awkward sacrifice throw that made it look like he was in trouble, I immediately wripped my gi loose and stood in the center so he would have to engage standing. This was before bjj was widely practiced in USA and some of the Russians had the best newaza. Not that bjj is that effective for judo newaza since they usually take so long to progress to a submission but the psychological element is still there.
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u/BullfrogSpirited558 26d ago
I looooove bjj and it was my first grappling art but the more i learn the more i realize that it’s just part of judo. Bjj is really just mixing grappling arts. Anytime i delve into judo or wrestling for some detail my bjj game levels up weather it’s standing or a way to pin
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u/Thy_Sovereign94 26d ago
My judo coach is a bjj brown belt and he enphasize newaza heavily, there are entire classes that outside of warm up it's only newaza. Its the Imbituba Atletico Clube in Santa Catarina Brazil.
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u/JudoMike9 26d ago
Moacir Mendes does this as well, in Porto Alegre. SOGIPA has very good newaza.
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u/Thy_Sovereign94 26d ago
You bjj/judo guys from RS have a really good reputation here in SC, in fact there are plenty gauchos training here at the atletico
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u/Truth-Miserable gokyu 25d ago
People underestimate what a large and solid Judo culture there is in Brazil
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u/Available_Sundae_924 26d ago
I've done more judo and new to BJJ im enjoying it alot. It has a lot more technical insight into ne waza with just things like micro movement and stuff that are counter-intuitive to common judo guidance. Some of it is based on tradition.. hence non optimised and not really updated.
I see them as ultimately complimentary minus the rule differences.
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u/Sudden_Telephone5331 26d ago
I’ve never understood the hate between judo and jiu jitsu. I feel like the two arts complement each other perfectly.
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u/JoeBreza-grappling 26d ago
Jiu Jitsu is a marketing machine and part of it is making sure you don’t have people cross train. Danaher says you can’t learn wrestling from a wrestler, because you can’t leg lace in ADCC. Bro, nobody is going to leg lace, lol! Also, they use a leg lace from cross ashi to get to heel hooks, so yeah I guess you can do a leg lace. And his other argument (and Gordon’s) that wrestling action is stopped by the ref, whereas the action in BJJ continues on the ground (so you can’t learn “bolt on wrestling from wrestlers”) is a flat out lie as it only applies to freestyle and greco. The wrestling continues on the ground in folkstyle and in all grappling, it will continue if you takedown to the back. There are differences in what scores as a takedown, but there are so many lies told to keep people at their own gym and not cross training at others. I was actually told to leave my old BJJ gym because I was training Judo and wrestling outside of it. I actually offered to coach wrestling there for free, but he refused because “it’s dangerous.” That is another lie, because in 34 years of wrestling, I didn’t sustain that many injuries. But I did sustain a ton of them only working on the ground in BJJ. “Judo and wrestling are dangerous” is playing into fear. BJJ is still dangerous. You literally teach people how to break limbs, lol
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u/9u1940v8 26d ago
BJJ is dangerous because they teach throws and ukemi wrong, barely train it live and then go to competition where all of it is allowed.
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u/JoeBreza-grappling 26d ago
Yup. And my former coach was not interested in learning wrestling from me. He knew my college coach was head coach of the greco Olympic and world team too. I told him how useful greco was for BJJ given the upright stance. He just had to always be the only one who did instruction. Horrible stand up instruction.
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u/Truth-Miserable gokyu 25d ago
This is why you see people getting irreparably fucked up in bjj and its part of why you see so many DQs/fights
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u/BookOk5585 26d ago
BJJ has a long history of extremely scummy behavior. Losing challenge matches (e.g. Ono and Kimura) and claiming victory anyway, the ambush of Joao Baldi, special rules and cheated circumstances in MMA. Moreover claiming they invented a superior art when all they are doing is Kano Jujutsu/Judo's with a ruleset like old jj challenge matches requiring a finish, except on mats so KO's from throws don't happen, which is exactly why the ippon by throw was added to Judo. With no standups for disengagement it forces ne waza centrism via absurdities like butt scooting. Kano had issue with guard pulling itself, let alone butt scooting and calling the standing guy for stalling LOL.
Something I still think is absurd in MMA is the mats btw, you're allowed to kick someone in the head but it's fought on mats for safety? Just removes all realism of the effect of throws and (e.g. guard) slams to not have the fight on dirt.
The whole history of 'bjj' is textbook plagiarism, extreme hostility and underhanded tactics, a lot of the old myths persists in the scene to denigrate the martial art they are ironically practicing under a bit of a silly ruleset, as well as other arts.
Not to say it's all bad, I think Judo's ruleset has neglected newaza, but bjj took it in a wrong direction as well. My dream would be a reintegration of Judo and this Judo style of the Americas, bjj coming to the olympics as a part of Judo itself again. Reaching mutual understanding. I believe a reintegrated ruleset could be come up with, something like:
-penalizing stalling in turtle so you either have to stand or reverse
-call stalling even in guard
-ref stand up if top guy is able to disengage from guard
-with above rule I could go either way on guard pulling being allowed, or only allowed off a legitimate sutemi waza attempt as now.
-give typically say 20 seconds to work on the ground and more with advancement
-making osaekomi (and back takes?) a yuko or waza ari instead of ippon so top submissions off pins are incentivised againBasically treat newaza as an active part of the contest just like tachi waza forcing engagement or making either top or bottom guy earn their standup.
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u/JoeBreza-grappling 25d ago
I agree in many ways. A pin threat in BJJ, even if it were like 60s would be better than getting called for stalling while in top side control (happened to my friend). No, you are in an inferior position and it’s on you to escape so that when you try, you open yourself up to a submission. I shouldn’t have to force it on top and give you an opportunity to escape. That was on you for letting me pass your guard. You should watch my video on the lies of influencers on my YouTube channel (#111). Also #115 which I purposefully made as a ragebait title just to see who comments on my page without listening to a word. It worked. People came over and cried about it, because the title was “Judo is better than Jiu Jitsu” even though I said within 10s of the video that I meant for me. I am a wrestler, so after doing BJJ and Judo, I felt more like Judo was my game. We are on the same page in many ways.
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u/BookOk5585 25d ago
Glad you saw some agreeable points. I think you're right about the role of the pin threat as the right way to put onus on the guy being pinned in the rules. Also yeah seen those videos. Pretty funny, but predictable, someone would leave a response without listening to what they presume would be an argument, they wouldn't even know what to respond to they're just guessing.
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u/JoeBreza-grappling 25d ago
Thanks for watching man.
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u/BookOk5585 25d ago
Thanks for putting your videos out there. Never wrestled but very helpful stuff to understand no gi for me.
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u/Truth-Miserable gokyu 25d ago
Two things can't "complement each other nicely" when one's just a subset of the other
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u/Sudden_Telephone5331 25d ago
I mean one focuses on getting someone to the ground while the other focuses on being on the ground. Sounds pretty complementary to me
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u/Truth-Miserable gokyu 25d ago
One focuses on standup and floor grappling while the other focuses on floor grappling. My school splits the time damn near 50/50 btwn standup and Newaza. If its a Judo school that skimps on Newaza, its a bad Judo school.
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u/Right_Situation1588 shodan 26d ago
In internet, just an ego fight, I see these comments but in judo videos when there's newaza being well done there's also always bjj people saying "oh, this dude certainly does bjj" (and then it's like, a super traditional judo technique or transition).
Outside internet, the early bjj history is not very nice, many men who would practice went to the streets to get in fights and abused what they learned, they were even called "pitboys" in the 90s/00s, very aggressive, there's also some not nice stories involving bjj history.
They came a long way and I think this bully culture is not encouraged anymore, it's now much more universal sport.
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u/Otautahi 26d ago
Judo history also pretty bad. Got pretty nasty around the 30s and 40s.
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u/Right_Situation1588 shodan 26d ago
Where can I read about it? The bjj ones are easy to know cause its much more recent (and in my country)
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u/Which_Cat_4752 ikkyu 26d ago
I’ve came across old newspapers from Japan reporting a 1900s high school match and it’s full of hard cranking joints, punching on the face, refusing tap with broken leg etc.
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u/markelis BJJ Purple Belt 26d ago
"I think both arts are awesome, and it would be great if we could just combine them into one big, beautiful art!"
100%. I'd argue that quality instruction includes both, and if your academy isn't teaching both, then you should maybe find a new place to train. (Coming from a Jiu-Jitsu background).
I will say, I've found a bit more benefit in that of wrestling, but that's because for the longest time, Judo didn't allow leg grabs; which are an essential skill in take downs for submission fighting. Especially in NoGi, although a hip toss works just as well without the Gi. :)
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u/JoeBreza-grappling 26d ago
I train Judo and BJJ. I don’t see as much disrespect from judokas. A lot of the time it is Judokas telling people what the name of the throw really is. I have a wrestling for BJJ channel and the vast majority of disrespect I receive is from noGi and MMA people. I would just kick you. That’s not a legit single leg…ok bro I wrestled D1. Lol!! Honestly, I am willing to bet that a lot of negative comments come from people who don’t even train at all, because their comments are so wrong most of the time. And anonymity makes people really tough behind their keyboard
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u/okay-advice 26d ago
Two things. I can only speak from a North American perspective.
Sour grapes from those people. "Much like Olympic weightlifting owes a debt to Crossfit, Judo, in North America, owes a debt to BJJ by reviving interest in the sport.
BJJ talking shit about Judo and the Gracies shitting on everything that isn't exactly what they teach pissed a lot of people off, especially when they notice how much bad Judo is taught in BJJ classes. There was such an aura of mystique and deference for BJJ in the US when there were skilled Judoka who could do many of the same things.
Additionally, traditional martial artists would go to great lengths about how Judo was a legitimate art but BJJ wasn't despite their obvious similarities.
15 years ago it was different, but the vast majority of people I train with these days do not care anymore.
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u/Interesting_Button60 26d ago
Judo black belt - focusing on training bjj for the last 2.5 years.
Less throws (got a messed up back) - more ground work (newaza was always my favourite)
Going for my 4th stripe white belt promotion at the end of August, feels nice to be a beginner again :)
No disrespect for BJJ
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u/Alexpik777 26d ago
Cause Judokas as well as BJJ people have fragile egos.
Judokas cant handle that they are worse in ne wasa
BJJ practitioners cant handle that they dont know how to grapple standing
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u/mega_turtle90 26d ago
A lot of nerds on this subreddit hate on BJJ gor no reason but in real life plenty of Judokas respect BJJ and even cross train in it
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u/bigsmelly_twingo ikkyu 25d ago
I do both. However it is basically just Judo.
If you take Judo from BJJ what are you left with?
A few folkstyle wrestling moves, the leglock meta (not the locks per se, but the strategies) and a few gimmicky guards. (Worm guard for example)
I agree we should combine - there should be a mutally acceptable ruleset aka Kosen rules with leg locks.
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u/pianoplayrr 25d ago
I train both, and they definitely are not the same thing.
Maybe at one point in time they were, but today they absolutely are not!
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u/Historical-Pen-7484 26d ago
There is a rivalry over who is the inheritor of traditional jujutsu, that goes back to the Kimura-Gracie era, but other than that people are on friendly terms, I guess.
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u/Baron_De_Bauchery 26d ago
That's a very silly argument considering a number of traditional koryu jujutsu schools still exist.
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u/Historical-Pen-7484 26d ago
True, but there are fewer of them, and they are in decline, so I imagine that's what is causing this.
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u/mukavastinumb 26d ago
I’ve noticed that beginner-level Judo and BJJ practitioners sometimes talk down about the other discipline. But when you ask higher belts, they tend to show mutual respect: BJJ practitioners often admire Judokas for their stand-up skills, while Judokas acknowledge that BJJ practitioners have clever techniques on the ground.
I train both disciplines and would like to also train Wrestling
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu 26d ago
I usually enjoy training with BJJers, and will always try to spar them in ne-waza randori. Learn something all the time.
I do find their standup to be occasionally annoying though, at least if they import too much of their BJJ habits over. Stiff arms, bent over posture, a general unwillingness to engage or just even stall. A lot of uki-waza or guard pulls sumi gaeshi.
The ones I don't like are the ones that grab my thigh and go 'ah, could have taken your leg right there!' Social media wise, the ones that do the '5 judo moves for BJJ' and proceed to do them badly.
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u/Special_Fox_6239 26d ago
BJJ is literally specialized judo. The guys that came to Brazil from japan were Judo guys. Modern judo branched off (especially Olympic judo) in one direction and BJJ in another. But go look up kosen judo, it’s pretty similar, those guys just don’t suck at takedowns
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u/S4vvi0r 26d ago
For me personally it has to do with the EGO a lot of Jits players bring. In my experience and hearing stories and reading on line there is a lack of welfare for the partner in competitive gyms and Judo is no place for ego.
If you're a Jits guy and wanna try judo i highly recommend it but come with the understanding you're no longer at jits but at judo that has a completely different environment and atmosphere and culture. You probably wont have any issues at all often times when a jits guy visits the club i train at, I always engage newaza with them for the challenge and see how skills differ
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u/btuman nikyu 26d ago
In the US, BJJ has been the hot grappling martial art while Judo has been declining. A lot of the marketing for BJJ is stuff that applies to Judo, or even stuff that Judo arguably does better.
I think those frustrations, combined with the group-identity nature you find a lot in martial arts, pushes what you see.
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u/Specialist-Ad7393 26d ago
I never really understand the hate either way. A quarter of my judo class cross trains. I always say that they are brother and sister art forms.
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u/General_Year4434 26d ago
This is an interesting thread to read because I've never experienced any of this in person. I am fairly new to Judo and a purple belt in BJJ, but never once was I discouraged to cross train like some people suggested above. Every time I learn something new in Judo, BJJ training partners want me to show them. Every time I do something untraditional in newaza, Judokas seem interested in learning about it. Could just be because I try making friends with everyone from day 1, but the only animosity I see is online from angry commenters (some in this thread as well).
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u/Otautahi 26d ago
10 years ago it was different and 10 years before that very different. I first met a BJJ Gracie black belt in the mid-90s when he visited our dojo. He and a lot of swagger and definitely thought he was going to beat everyone on the ground.
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u/MathematicianFar2051 26d ago
if we could just combine them into one big, beautiful art!
Just look up Kosen judo if that's what you want but it goes both ways I've seen bjj talk shit about other grappling arts like sambo and judo so it's not just one way
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u/skylord650 26d ago
Bjj guy… I wonder the same thing as OP when I see some posts here, but chalk it up to a loud minority. I studied under the renzo lineage, and most of my instructors are quick to point out judo guys are the best at judo - but we’ll do our best to study and apply it in our context. It’s fascinating to see the high level guys who cross train in fact - eg Travis Steven, Flavio Canto, Yuki Nakai, Camarillo bros, jflo
I’m sure there is a loud minority of bjj guys who are annoying for judo folks as well. For me, it’s all grappling, and rather than this argument, it’s just trying to be better - whether it’s against judokas wrestlers bjj catch etc. I’m sure people can let their skills do the talking on the mats.
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u/RustySpoon2280 26d ago
Its a loud minority. We have a lot of judokas in bjj and we all love them its a beautiful art. Its always wonderful to incorporate different styles into your game i will say us bjj guys are definitely not known for our standup lol
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u/9u1940v8 26d ago
I started with BJJ and quit at purple belt for Judo post covid after trying to swap to 10+ different schools.
I have nothing against BJJ the art. What I have a problem with is the culture, namely sexual assault, grooming, idolizing terrible people and giving them money. Many places have become gathering grounds for far right extremists. Then there's also how bad most people are at teaching, especially take downs. I found that BJJ as a hobby attracts all some of the worse people I have ever met.
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u/mega_turtle90 26d ago
You're just in a shitty city then
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u/9u1940v8 26d ago
yep a city in California that has some of the highest amount of BJJ gyms available, and traveling for work to different cities and training for most of my blue and purple belt life. All shitty cities where people sweep up sexual assault and grooming under the rug, and instructors sleep with their students wives. Just unlucky old me.
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u/A_literal_HousePlant 26d ago
I do both and have no ill will towards either. Most judokans don't like the gaurd pulling but I understand it's just part of the bjj game. It's same reason we don't blast double each other in judo's randori.
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u/Agreeable_Gap_5958 26d ago
People like to argue online lol, On the mats i haven’t personally seen any animosity. My Sensei is totally fine with us cross training. I recently moved two hours from my judo dojo and can only make it back for class once a week, there are zero judo places near me but 10+ Jiu Jitsu places within 30 minutes of me. I’ve been visiting them and haven’t received any hate for being a judoka.
I do understand why some judoka could be salty, tho, with how much more popular bjj is. It is very clear that the for profit model of bjj has absolutely crushed the non profit model of judo. Being salty isn’t gonna change that, but we could learn from bjj and apply the same model.
I think for profit judo would be very successful, judo is the martial art with the highest chance preventing harm, aka break falling, and I genuinely believe everyone would benefit from knowing how to break fall.
I do think that for profit judo would need to be more in line with the roots of judo and not tailored towards the current ruleset of the sport. Judo could easily be taught 50% tachi-waza 50% Newaza, with Nage-Waza and Katame-Waza being used in both tachi-waza and newaza. IMO the current ruleset of the sport is atrocious and a complete bastardization of the art of Judo. Since I started trying out bjj places I’ve realized that bjj is much more approachable to new people because it’s not even close to being as anaerobically exhausting as judo. When rolling bjj some people will stand with me some wanna just start on the ground, starting on the ground uses so much less energy compared to standing, and from what I’ve seen tends to be the norm in bjj. This definitely makes it more approachable to new people. Instead of tailoring the art to fit the current sport we should taylor the art to be as useful and as popular as possible. I just want Judo to be more popular yall
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u/armedsnowflake69 26d ago
I would love to see the two arts combined! Every martial art/combat sport has its history and how it adapted to meet certain conditions. This should be the next step and the evolution of these two. Maybe even mix in a little striking. I know that just sounds like MMA now, but I’m thinking more a form with its own fundamentals.
Also maybe it’s time to reimagine the gi to something that doesn’t come undone every 10 seconds. Maybe like a onesie.. with beltloops?
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u/getvaccinatedidiots 26d ago
I don't like it. This is also why I don't like someone criticizing someone who provides their film here for review (although I don't see much, if any, of that) or criticizing someone who obviously doesn't know how to do a throw. It's also why I look at shodan the way the Japanese do: beginner.
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u/EnglishTony 26d ago
Most of the old guys where I train also train BJJ, and they're all sound.
One of the complaints I've seen is BJJ guys entering judo competitions, not attempting judo techniques and insteadnjust dragging to the ground so they can enter ne-waza.
Aside from that, there's the usual online engagement farming, whereby people make provocative statements to encourage a response. The internet is not real life.
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u/redundantpsu 26d ago
I started training BJJ in 2005 and Judo around 2009. Judo practioners have warmed up a lot to BJJ even since then.
I don't blame older Judokas for feeling the way they do about BJJ. Even when I started BJJ, the belt system didnt include stripes, things were taught with no curriculum, we trained with MMA gloves every once and a while and it was unspoken you were expected to compete, either in a grappling competitiosn or MMA. This was pretty common for a lot of gyms at the time, and many of your training partners were a little rough around the edges.
The average BJJ gym doesn't really operate like this anymore.
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u/True_Subject9767 26d ago
3rd degree BJJ BB here and Judo white belt. I’ve been doing BJJ for 25 years and judo for about the same amount of time although not at a traditional judo school. My judo is great for BJJ and pretty good for judo. I’m missing some of the nuances of judo because I never learned formally. I got promoted to the Judo advanced class as a white belt and have to explain why I’m in the advanced class as a white belt. Judo is a ton of fun but unfortunately it’s not marketed as well as BJJ. Also throwing people and landing properly isn’t that fun when you’re a 60 yo white belt with zero experience. It’s a lot easier to butt scoot and sit on your ass and wrestle up.
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u/Defiant-Bed-8301 26d ago
One perspective is that some BJJ practitioners make it seem like they know how to apply takedowns, most often accidents and blown knees happen; those are the ones that get mocked. But in general, there is respect when each knows his place.
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u/SunchiefZen 26d ago
It probably comes from the overlap. BJJ borrowed a lot from Judo, and when someone posts a throw without acknowledging that history, it can feel like erasure to people who care about the roots. On the other side, BJJ has developed a huge culture and system of its own, so practitioners see it as more than just "ground Judo." The tension usually comes from identity and credit, not the techniques themselves. Funny thing is, most people who train both tend to respect both. The friction is mostly online.
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u/Derpy_One 26d ago
I keep my grudge against bjj (kinda as a joke) because they ruined the mat game from judo.
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u/Practical-Tailor8450 26d ago
the biomechanics is the same, regardless how you call it. some people adapt to their preferences and name it differently. its the same human body, the name physics. i've never seen any disrespect but where it exists its grown-ups fighting over how to name things and leaving aside the core of what martial arts are
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u/Black_Mirror_888 25d ago
I cross train and have all respect for any pressure tested sport, whether judo, bjj, mma, boxing or whatever. I don't see disrespect in my bjj academy or judo dojo at all.
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u/MikeXY01 25d ago
Because BJJ is Weak Man's Judo trash!
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u/pianoplayrr 25d ago
Internet tough guy
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u/mega_turtle90 25d ago
He's a another Judo nerd who hates on BJJ. Majority of them probably just do kata and randori looking scared like Chadi on YouTube lol
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u/silverfoxxflame 25d ago
Those bastards have the time slot right before us at the dojo and they never leave on time!
On a serious note though I have nothing but love for them. A lot cross train and the rest are all pretty good dudes from the brief talks I've had with them.
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u/Truth-Miserable gokyu 25d ago edited 25d ago
Lol you havent even tried to research and find the answer. While I cant paint their entire community with one brush (in fact its so large that there are drastically different sub communities), here are some super apparent problems with bjj as a practice and as a community:
- lacking the same focus on safety as Judo. In several years at the awesome dojo I train at, I've only seen a handful of major injuries; half of them were caused by the same person on the same day - a teen purple belt from BJJ. Him and his dad do bjj but wanted to learn some judo to round things out. The kid then proceeded to snap an immediate gi choke arohnd my adams apple that hurt really badly for three weeks, before spamming a tiny 13 year old greenbelt with sumi gaeshi until he caused the 13 yr old ankle to twist and swell up. Dude was doing way too fucking much and I feel itbwas just part and parcel of how too many (but probably far from all?) Either way its not just a "few bad apples" which is a stupid thing people say anyway that makes no sense
- cheaply and shallowly borrows moves from other arts while missing a lot of the fundamentals; now a bunch of bjj dudes do some half assed, probably more dangerous version of the move
- that move also now gets a western rebrand featuring the person's name if their famous enough
- many of the gracies were verifiably misogynistic, racist, fascist, thieving p.o.s. who stole judo moves they knew half-assed and rebranded them as bjj. There's an interview where helio says his nephews are low for tryna put their own spin on "his art". Like bro what?!? You stole the shit from judo! And literally, all of what I just said I can provide proof of, often in the form of an interview straight from the horses mouth
- astounding lack of accountability from coaches and "professors" when shit hits the fan (read the insta apology of the "professor" who broke a trial students spine)
- far too many stories of "professors" bullying or even being outright sexually inappropriate with students. Not to mention the cases of literal sexual assault. Some of those guys are still very highly regarded in the bjj community
- too many fuckin tough guys; its all love and flow rolls until that type of guy "sees red", and the laid back vibe the rest of the time means there's not enough structure and hierarchy to shut that shit down when need be
- toxic dojo storming culture
- often coming to judo schools or forums looking for advice and then willfully ignoring all of it. I see too many posts here were some bjj person's like "hey I wanna learn xyz throw to crush in bjj comps". People say ok, take some judo classes, to which they often respond [well there are reasons why I can't/dont want to/that would be a waste of my time]. Ok thats def the kind of person who doesn't learn to do moves safely
Dude I can go on and on but you really should just do your own research since im sure you'll look at my response here with skepticism
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u/tabrice 25d ago
It's necessary to first confirm that BJJ has far more social influence than judo, at least in the US. Some of BJJ guys' throws may be “great” in the context of BJJ, but in the context of judo, they're no big deal at all. I've no interest in BJJ guys' throws at all, but there seem to be a certain number of people who dare to criticize them. However, there's little social influence when judo people express some negative views about BJJ. On the other hand, the comments of BJJ guys sometimes spread widely on the Internet. They've participated in the ludicrous conspiracy theory that Japan banned Leg Grabs for their benefit. I've specifically mentioned the absurdity of this conspiracy theory several times before, so I won't repeat it here. Btw, BJJ came out of judo, but the two are now completely different martial arts. That's why even athletes with international track records in judo don't do so well in BJJ competitions. On the other hand, judo athletes do far better in sambo competitions. This is because sambo is a martial art closer to judo rather than BJJ.
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u/BaseMonkeySAMBO 25d ago
Most Judoka are cool, majority I know cross training (in fact a Judo black belt joined my SAMBO club this week).
Sadly there's always a few with a weird standpoint, usually ones scares try something new.
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25d ago
BJJ has earned it after years of lies,gaslighting, trolling, bullying and degrading everything else. The unearned ego and absolute lack of humility doesn’t help either.
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u/Melvorn 24d ago
For my money, I think it stems from a mix of ignorance by BJJ players as to the origins of some of their moves and how convinced some of them are that their art is the “best” grappling art. And I come at this from the perspective of someone who has practiced and enjoyed both. But some examples are:
It’s not that uncommon to see BJJ players online showcase a move, or talk about an athlete using a move, and talk about it as a BJJ move despite it having it’s origins in Judo. You can even see this in some comments about Khabib Nurmagomedov’s fighting style, where they will say that he’s ‘doing BJJ’ despite the fact that he’s openly talked about being a Judo black belt (and retrofitted a lot of Judo moves to not wearing a gi for MMA), Sambo player and Wrestler with no direct BJJ practice. That feeling of taking what is ‘useful’ from Judo and then pretending it’s your invention, kinda feels like your friend copying your homework and telling everyone that it was his ideas to begin with.
And another example is the whole “my dad can beat up your dad”, but not really when you think about it. A fair amount of BJJ guys will talk about how BJJ is great and the ‘Gracie’s beat everyone’. But they seem to just not acknowledge that - for instance - Kimura (who they named a move after, and seem to pretend that the Kimura-lock is also a BJJ move in origin) was a Japanese Judoka that absolutely schooled Helio Gracie quite brutally. But some people still try to reframe that as a ‘BJJ match’ or that early days Gracie’s were just invincible.
These are just some observations on my part, that I suspect has led to a bit of frustration from people in the Judo community, hence there’s backlash. Sometimes it goes overboard I agree, but I don’t think it’s fully unwarranted at times either. It would be ideal if everyone could just love their arts, but acknowledge when they borrow a move from each other and not try to measure egos.
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u/pianoplayrr 24d ago
It's crazy how much I have learned about the history of BJJ over these last 15 years of training it. I initially learned all of the things you said "BJJ was the best. Gracies were invincible, etc "...
And over time I have been learning the other side of the story.
I definitely get it. BJJ is a cool martial art, but that is some sketchy history for sure!
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u/emperorsludge 24d ago
I’ve never gotten this. Briefly did judo, the worst I heard was that “BJJ takes a different mindset”. Now doing BJJ, the reaction I get to saying I did some judo is “oh ok, that explains why I’m grip fighting an octopus”
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u/TraditionSharp6414 yondan 24d ago
I haven't read the other replies to avoid influencing my response. I'm a 6th Dan in Judo and have 33 years on the mat. I was also a collegiate all-american wrestler and am now a 4 stripe purple belt and only train BJJ currently. Judo's ground game as a SPORT is relatively simple compared to BJJ. Judo has the potential to teach the same breadth of moves that BJJ does but few if any schools take this approach. The point of Judo is to throw somebody with complete control with them landing on their back. You can also win by choke, submission, hold down or penalty. So most judoka develop a transition game off their throw attempts but if unsuccessful the match is stopped so they return to their feet and try to launch each other again. Most judoka also spent hours doing throw reps with bands or a partner and only a small % of the same energy/time on ground game. BJJ as a sport couldn't be more different. A takedown may be a glorious display of technical superiority and literally mean nothing at all to the match, not even an advantage. Most times it's 2 points and you move on from there. As a takedown guy this can be very frustrating. With that said BJJ has forced me to evolve and develop a ground based game which is primarily from the top given my background but as I progress more bottom game comes along for the ride. Why judo players rag on BJJ? Probably because they aren't doing it and feel guard pulling is silly as an idea. Even as I approach brown belt I still feel from a practical self-defense perspective guard pulling is hilarious. From a sport application though you cannot deny its effectiveness. I think BJJ is a more diverse game that allows you to win in more ways than Judo but at the same time there is more room for stalling and non-self defense type techniques to thrive as it literally scores points on the mat. Train hard!
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u/JaguarHaunting584 23d ago
bjj is its own sport and many bjj players show up to judo clubs with a less than beginner attitude despite having fairly bad overall judo knowledge and ability.
people complain about judo black belts competing against white or even blue belts in bjj but i see bjj black belts in novice divisions fairly frequently and no one bats an eye.
there are flaws in judo as a martial art just like any other. but ive seen some bjj players argue that the current bjj style is invincible/it's this unbeatable martial art. they cite things like ADCC or the UFC.
I think people should do whatever sport they enjoy most. i dont compete or train in bjj anymore because i dislike the rules and dislike the cultural difference (ive been to too many places with egos, silly hierarchies for belts, etc.)
some bjj players are great and i still have fun occasionally working on the ground with them.
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u/basicafbit 23d ago
lol downvote me if you want, but:
i train judo, "bjj", and wrestling. love them all but there is really no difference between old bjj and judo, its all just judo. what i personally have issue with is the "stolen valor" they re marketed and repackaged it as a martial art they created. I'm speaking solely of the gracies btw. It's not right, credit should be given where it's due. just like i give credit to the american, aussies, and some others to what bjj has become now. now all the grappling arts are become one, as it should be. this to me, is a wonderful thing. but lets not forget how we got here.
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u/Brannigan33333 shodan 23d ago edited 23d ago
Ive trained both for over ten years. There’s a lot of similarities but I dont think they could be combined into “one big beautiful art” . youre just looking at the physical aspects of the arts but Judo has a lot more to it than that. BJJ does a bit, but Judo really does. Judo was really designed as a system of education amd has important concepts that spread into real life like “mutual benefit” To me these are the things that Judo has benefitted me most in life (dont get me wrong im highly competitive) and are the most important things about Judo imo. BJJ doesnt really have those things. Its not all about having a more effectve no gi north south south choke.
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u/JohnConnoring 23d ago
They're 1/3rd of the judo curriculum and act like they reinvented the wheel. Their origin story is eating like 9 ippons on soft cushiony ground; on any hard surface the Gracie lineage would have died at ground 0. They out kodokan'd the kodokan by coming up with rules hyper conducive to BJJ. As Don Frye said "BJJ is stolen from judo, so why would I steal from the watered down art?"
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u/mega_turtle90 9d ago
With Don's stupid logic that's like saying Judo is stolen from Japanese Ju Jutsu
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u/Ok-Bad2791 22d ago edited 22d ago
I did my first bjj class this week and thought it was a good experience. I respect their work ethic and they are very effective and good at what they do.
I didn't like it however. I really enjoy the DO part of judo, I like to bow, I respect sensei and the whole respect and calmness of practice is something that really centers me and makes me happy.
To be honest bjj to me is a sport, they go out there and do their thing and it's all cool but I don't really think they're after doing the same thing. It could be that my dojo is very traditional, and the bjj place is very not but overall it was not my cup of tea.
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u/SirManBoy 26d ago
I think it’s largely generational. In general, older judoka are notoriously antagonistic towards BJJ. I think it stems from jealousy. While many won’t admit it, the newaza is much better in BJJ, and there’s also resentment harbored over BJJ’s success as a competitor for students. Many BJJ schools not only have strong enrollment for their children’s program, but they often smash judo schools in terms of adult interest and enrollment.
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u/Various-Stretch2853 26d ago
my personal take:
Almost completely contraty skillset: Judo is basically standing only (Ippon - end of fight). The more japanese you go, the less groundwork is there really, in some japanese tournaments they hardly go to the ground at all. BJJ is basically no standing and only groundwork (pulling guard instantly). Yet both are theoretically very similar at the core. so you have two groups that basically suck at what the other excels at, so there might be a constant view of "they bad" - see any throws demonstrated by BJJ on here.
Kinda opposite mentalities: In my experience BJJ has an overall more western and "fighter" attitude overall, where as judo is more based in the japanese discipline, respect etc., where again, each group sees the other as somewhat strange and of bad behaviour.
from what i heard quite some actual clashes between persons/groups in the past that might have caused lingering animosities.
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u/Haunting-Beginning-2 26d ago
Probably some jealousy, for pro $, but certainly some loss of the game of ability to get members in a tight market. Judo has way less marketing skills, way less $. BJJ know they are in a battle for hearts and minds. I think perhaps BJJ head people give a false impression of injuries collected by doing judo, so as to scare their population away from cross training. It’s a commercial decision, nothing personal. The early years was plagued by provocative marketing by BJJ. Loads of reasons really. We will never be one happy family, different international communities. Financially far apart. Agree judo and BJJ have great respect between them and endear each other by their common ground, only a few people are antagonistic. We show great respect in our dojo.
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u/zealous_sophophile 26d ago
I suggest you look at everything Chadi has to say on the subject
https://youtu.be/j_Qsf8vgEzg?si=4Zd3PsCYLd7u4uzs
https://youtu.be/KGaLo5P-Fmc?si=M8SmtvZHXnOq9Yhh
https://youtu.be/noH9EsUCVyc?si=stql2Gw9eYaM5UV0
In short, appropriation. Everything was already there but the biggest hole in Judo was with catch wrestling. But Judo was on track to becoming more and more complete instead of more and more sport-washed.
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u/irtsayh 26d ago
A tree falling makes more noise than a forrest. Most of Judoka respect BJJ