r/judo • u/harderdaddy123456 gokyu • 16d ago
Other Why is judo against evolution and innovation of styles?
So kind of as the title says, why is the IJF so keen on keeping judo so traditional or even setting it back years from what Kano would have wanted. I've seen bjj guys have more respect for the old style judo inviting the "illegal" style takedowns and even managing to create ways to perform them safely that only gets butchered by white belts and now they lost all their CL's in their knee.
my main question is just why does the IJF dislike innovation? because it seems like every 10 years, some new variation of a technique is created and then banned due to "safety", reverse seoi being an example being banned while the main issue was just the fact that judo is a martial art that requires you to be thrown to prove a technique works.
leg grabs also being banned are a bit strange, it was just to differentiate judo from wrestling which i also dont think kano would have wanted to be banned and the IJF keeps using that was a veil to hide the fact its because they dont want to innovate.
its always under the guise of "safety" as if competitors don't make their own style. pistol grips being banned due to "stalling" and safety when they're extremely effective, the main thing is the IJF just does not want to adapt.
I love doing judo but sometimes reading these rules makes me very confused because everything new is banned. its like IBJJF banning heel hooks due to danger, while in a sport where the point and philosophy is to injure your opponent or neutralize them.
not saying don't ban some techniques like kani basami where its high risk when you're moving extremely fast, but im saying just because something is effective does not mean that it should be banned when its attempting to move the sport more forward into a modern push, styles make matches and just one technique variation can put a country on the map, every time i see someone experimenting randomly at an open mat with tachi waza, the idea becomes an "illegal grip" so no matter how effective the throw is at shutting someone down and getting their shoulders to the mat, it becomes useless to use in judo. (which also contributes to the reason why many people quit judo for bjj but thats another post for another day.)
the main question is just why can't judo evolve while bjj has evolved and new techniques "created", kickboxing new feint techniques and entries to attack, same as muay thai and boxing, even sserium which is just korean wrestling lets you do virtually anything as long as its with the grips.
EDIT: nevermind apparently rulesets changed while i wasn’t looking and this post was useless cause everything I said is basically legal now. Also this isn’t an ad for bjj, I just wish it was possible to stay away from curriculum because it gets a bit boring following a set path.
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u/dazzleox 16d ago
Judo has evolved significantly since it became an Olympic sport, mostly through internationalization. The unusual gripping strategies the Soviet Judoka brought in changed it forever. And every year you'll see something new...Ono's unique osoto and uchimata, Tsunoda's two legged tomoe nage, weird sasae variations from the Germans where its almost a lat drop, endless turtle turnover techniques that become trendy a month after the world championships etc.
Compare a video of the 1964 Olympic Judo to now and tell me it hasn't evolved. Do the same for basketball. The change in athleticism has created all sorts of new techniques.
Fwiw btw Korean seoi is legal again. I wouldn't recommend it in randori for most people being a painful fall you can't control but its back.
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u/harderdaddy123456 gokyu 16d ago
Fair point, that’s still within the original techniques of the kodokan just variations that were deemed “safe” but it feels like the IJF bans a lot of things just because they’re too effective. Also thanks for letting me know the Korean seoi was legal, I looked it up and it was surprisingly recent. Probably won’t be trying it out on anyone at open mat due to safety but I wish it wasn’t banned in the first place.
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u/dazzleox 16d ago
The idea of the Kodokan list of techniques is to cover every way you can take someone to the ground, at least conceptually. So inevitably new "stuff" is generally considered a variation and not an entiely new technique. There are some edge cases, it ends up being a bit semantic. A one handed, drop tai otoshi wasn't probably around in the days of Kano (and the old short sleeves! Uniform changes cause innovation too) but it's still a tai otoshi.
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u/Rodrigoecb 15d ago
What exactly was banned because it was "too effective" at throwing someone? you talk about weird grips, but all those grips can be used for attacking, they just can't be used defensively to stall.
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u/Slickrock_1 16d ago
Before you glaze BJJ too much, let's remember that their system now facilitates butt scoot guard pulling, their gyms for the most part are giving belt promotions without testing and without a standardized curriculum, they largely eschew anything "traditional" from judo like any systematic way of learning the kodokan throws, and the sport is absolutely dreadful for unfamiliar spectators to watch because it looks like some weird mating ritual. BJJ has to be careful, because it seems on the verge of splitting into no-gi MMA clubs on the one hand and gi McDojos on the other.
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u/disposablehippo shodan 16d ago
Don't forget that there are dozens of different BJJ federations that all have varying rules. Getting them under one roof will get you a more strict ruleset, but will give other benefits. Being an Olympic sport professionalizes the sport as a whole.
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u/Slickrock_1 16d ago edited 16d ago
Being an Olympic sport has unintended consequences, as happened with taekwondo. Both the visibility and changing it from a combat system into a points system really watered it down to the point where it's the butt of jokes. When I was a kid in the 80s taekwondo was THE sport to train in. Now it's mostly an after school program for 8 year olds.
BJJ would benefit from curriculum standards and promotion standards, even if competition rulesets vary across organizations.
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u/Rodrigoecb 15d ago
Gi BJJ is already the butt of jokes of grappling arts because they refuse to change the ruleset too much.
I don't think its fair to compare striking and grappling arts and i think you are being too unfair to TKD, top amateur athletes compete dozens of time a year, while top pro athletes compete like 1-2 times a year.
Striking amateur arts will always be watered down because otherwise athletes wouldn't last a single year before getting CTE or injuries getting in the way
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u/Slickrock_1 15d ago
No one considers muay thai, combat sambo, kyokushin, ITF taekwondo, kudo, boxing, sanda, or Dutch kickboxing watered down, including at amateur levels. There are ways to spar and train safely.
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u/Rodrigoecb 15d ago
People DO consider amateur boxing to be watered down
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u/flipflapflupper i pull guard 14d ago
Man amateur boxing is absolutely brutal. Not sure what people mean.. I’ve boxed at elite level and it was rough.
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u/Rodrigoecb 13d ago
It is brutal, but people claim its just watered down because of points and safety
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u/MadT3acher sankyu 16d ago
The end of a judo match (except for fishing shidos) is to get the other guy on their back and yourself not being in that position, either by them plunging to their demise or just holding them there for long enough.
I’d argue that it’s pretty difficult to make judo a watered down contact sport, unless we award cartwheel points to uke falling.
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u/Slickrock_1 16d ago
It's not watered down in a full contact sense, but the removal of traditional techniques like te guruma and morote gari and (classic) kata guruma do fundamentally change it, mainly for sport needs -- and that fundamentally makes it a less effective fighting system in support of it becoming a more differentiated spectator sport.
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u/MadT3acher sankyu 16d ago
Oh come on, I have had sparring with guys from BJJ going for takedowns/leg grabs and we had fun around it. It’s cool but not that super weapon that diluted judo. Most of those guys were pretty much useless after a uchi-mata or a sumi gaeshi
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u/Slickrock_1 16d ago
Doing a sumi gaeshi to someone who's failed a single leg may be my favorite technique in all martial arts. Or maybe second only to doing a tarawa gaeshi after stuffing a double leg. Most BJJ guys don't get a lot of training in leg shots, so unless they have a high school wrestling background they probably aren't good at them - they just prefer them because they're less technical than judo throws.
I primarily train sambo, and we dedicate training to both classic judo and to wrestling techniques. I mean successfully doing a double leg the wrestling way or as a morote gari takes some practice, and in randori your strategy really changes if you have to truly respect the leg shots. Or conversely you have to set up leg shots by threatening throws. The posture in wrestling is low, in judo it's high, in sambo it's in between. And in BJJ it's either leaning over with stiff arms or lying on your back in a guard pull lol.
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u/Rodrigoecb 15d ago
double leg is inherently a low percentage throw for Judo for the simple reason that the gi exists and you need to shoot from the outside.
Te-guruma loss was indeed felt, but its not like you don't have other options there
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u/Slickrock_1 15d ago edited 15d ago
That's strange to say since it's a mainstay of sport sambo, and sport sambo is basically just old rules judo plus a few wrestling techniques. Guarding against upper body throws opens up the legs and vice versa.
Also you don't need to shoot from the outside. Generally pulling someone down by their sleeves or collar will provoke them to lean back, and then they pop up and their legs are free.
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u/Rodrigoecb 15d ago
Double legs were banned in 2009 competitive Judo since 1930, can you point a time in history that double leg was among the top 5 or even top 10 scoring techniques?
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u/Izunadrop45 16d ago
I shit you not the majority of no gi schools are more mcdojo than the gi ones
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u/Slickrock_1 16d ago
At least they take the stripes and belts out of it, so the only "advancement" per se comes from pressure testing in sparring or in competition.
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u/Izunadrop45 16d ago
Majority of those nogi schools get rocked in competition against gi dominant schools
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u/harderdaddy123456 gokyu 16d ago
My only reason for mentioning bjj is because competitors are encouraged more to adapt and do their stuff in the moment. I hate butt scooting too as much as the next person. The belt promotions though are more competition based too or time based which is a bit strange to me also, considering a 4 year blue belt at one gym can be beat by a 1 year white belt just if the training is actually more centralized at the white belts gym. I do agree on the last part though, I’m currently at a no gi gym that’s basically half wrestling and half bjj at this point, but a lot of the gyms in the area are basically doing it just for money which is one of the things I like about judo, a lot of the coaches actually love teaching judo because they find it good to do.
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u/Slickrock_1 16d ago
I train at 3 different gyms for various things and they all have BJJ classes that fall under 4 BJJ organizations (one gym has two instructors with different pedigrees). They are all completely different in how they promote. Competition is not standard part of promotion at any of them, though a good competitor can earn promotion faster.
It doesn't bother me at all that a white belt might beat a blue or purple belt, esp if they have a wrestling background. To me the belts should signify increasing skill sets and knowledge of the sport, and ultimately ability to teach the sport. Athleticism and cross-training in other things like judo and wrestling and age and body type and aggressiveness etc all impact your ability to compete. I'm a fairly injury-prone older person and not only do I not care if I can beat newbies, I don't even want to try -- I want to train in a way that develops skills while minimizing my risk of another rib fracture or ankle sprain. Competition has its own rewards, i.e. winning, and those should not be a prerequisite for advancement imo.
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u/Rodrigoecb 15d ago
Belts don't matter as much in Judo because competition isn't belted all mid to high level competition is going to be free for all.
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u/Few_Advisor3536 judoka 16d ago
Dude reverse seio and a whole bunch of gripping techniques including pistol grip is unbanned. New rules took effect in February this year im pretty sure. Leg attacks are not the be all end all people think, the art has gotten more technical and innovation does happen alot. The newaza game has skyrocketed in the last few years and theres always new setups or unorthodox ways of completing throws (alot of the central asian countries in particular).
Bjj has its uses but if you think its the ‘real’ judo you are dead wrong. Yeah a super fitted gi that doesnt allow much for throws, makes chokes easier and a weird culture combined with a reluctance to do any stand up grappling (and when people try its unsafe, sloppy and full of bad habits).
Judo has evolved past Kano’s vision. The best people in Kano’s era would get absolutely smoked by todays competitors.
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u/SucksAtJudo 16d ago
Judo has evolved past Kano’s vision. The best people in Kano’s era would get absolutely smoked by todays competitors.
Case in point, the Kodokan.
Having talked with multiple people who have trained there, they have all said that the instruction is solid, but very traditional and it's not a place where you will learn strategies and techniques for high level competition.
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u/Rosso_5 13d ago
I mean isn’t Kodokan main function is promoting Judo on the cultural side? The high level competition stuff is on the AJJF side.
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u/SucksAtJudo 13d ago
I mean isn’t Kodokan main function is promoting Judo on the cultural side?
As best I can see, yes, at least in part.
The Kodokan is the school that was founded by Jigoro Kano, and they basically serve as the institution that fulfills and preserves judo as it was intended by the founder and creator. They are basically the final authority on what is (and isn't) "judo".
The competitive orgs and various national governing bodies basically operate in parallel to the Kodokan.
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u/hellequinbull Uchi Mata Enthusiast 16d ago
Judo is the very definition of evolution 😂 This reads like an ad for BJJ
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u/harderdaddy123456 gokyu 16d ago
Sadly wish it didn’t sound like that cause I like judo way more than bjj, I just wish there was more variation in creativity compared to it.
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u/BootsLikeMafia shodan 15d ago
You're a yellow belt. Chill.
I don't mean that derisively, but consider how much experience you lack still. How can you have an opinion on the totality of judo being so fresh to it?
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16d ago
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u/DreamingSnowball 16d ago
Judo is now since a while a tournament sport. Judo's main philosophy is not injuring others. If you want to do that your wrong here.
Every technique has the ability to hurt others, that is their purpose. It's a martial art. What separates a real fight from training is measures put in place to make sure these techniques don't hurt others, that means breakfalls, controlled throws, good technique, tapping out, matted floors etc.
You should know this.
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u/Rodrigoecb 15d ago
Judo wasn't born as a martial art, it was born as a teaching tool to educate the body, mind and instill a sense of duty to society.
Kano himself was not really fond of competition.
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16d ago
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u/DreamingSnowball 16d ago
It's a martial art. What exactly are you expecting from it? Cookies and milk? Reading books?
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u/Revolutionary_Tune34 15d ago
Two principles in kano's judo:
- maximum efficiency, minimum effort
- mutual benefit
What does that say about hurting people?
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u/DreamingSnowball 15d ago
Do you think a throw is not painful? Getting out of a self defence situation might require the use of a judo technique, and hence, maximum efficiency with minimum effort.
Focus less on what is said and more on what is done. In daily practice, most of the time spent is on practicing nage komi, with the rest on ne waza, not on philosophy.
Could you tell me how a joint lock doesn't hurt someone? Will they say as such with a broken arm?
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u/PrestigiousAssist689 16d ago
Because many of those evolution originate from a trunkated understanding of judo.
Behind judo there is also the training of the mind and the way of life.
And as far as it is been until today, the old way as they pratice it in japan is still vastly superior to the rest.
Imho.
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u/harderdaddy123456 gokyu 16d ago
Fair point with this, Japanese judo is probably one of the most satisfying to watch, but I wouldn’t say it’s “superior” to everyone else, it produces a lot of people due to the fact judo isn’t in schools everywhere else such as the US or the UK or Germany, Japan has it for over 100 years so they have time to make a history with judo compared to every other country. (Also because a lot of other federations don’t help athletes, they just funnel money into their own pockets.)
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u/kitchenjudoka nidan 16d ago
Are you even aware of the current IJF ruleset? There’s leg grabs & grips are back in the game.
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u/harderdaddy123456 gokyu 16d ago
Yeah just realized that now, had to recheck everything and apparently everything I discussed is legal now including pistol grips so I wrote all of this for no reason because I forgot to check the new rules beforehand lol
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u/Smooth-Alternative64 16d ago
Judo is often misunderstood as being resistant to stylistic evolution. However, this perception overlooks the foundational philosophy and purpose behind its structure. Judo is not merely a style, it is a carefully curated syllabus distilled from the broader and more chaotic landscape of traditional jiu jitsu. Jigoro Kano, judo’s founder, deliberately selected techniques that emphasized efficiency, safety, and educational value, creating a system that could be taught, refined, and universally practiced.
Much like boxing, which excludes kicks and elbows to focus on the art of punching, judo’s restrictions are not anti innovation they are pro clarity and pro safety. Techniques are banned not because they lack merit, but because they pose undue risk, even at the highest levels of competition. The goal is talent preservation: ensuring athletes can train and compete over time without suffering catastrophic injuries from unpredictable or uncontrolled maneuvers.
Judo’s appeal also lies in its aesthetics. The sport celebrates the beauty of high-amplitude throws uchimata, harai goshi, seoi nage that combine precision, timing, and athleticism. These techniques are not only effective but visually striking, making them ideal for promotional material and spectator engagement. While styles like Mongolian or Georgian wrestling introduce effective grips and mechanics, they often lack the cinematic flair that judo thrives on, and you end up with matches that while very effective, end up being bland for lack of a better word. In a sport dependent on visibility and public interest, promoting what captivates is a strategic necessity.
Importantly, judo contributes to the evolution of athletes, even if the sport itself remains philosophically conservative. Many judoka transition into MMA or other combat sports, where their foundational skills become a launchpad for broader stylistic development. In this way, judo fosters evolution through its practitioners, while preserving the integrity of its own identity.
In essence, judo isn’t resisting evolution, it’s protecting a legacy. It’s a discipline built on refinement, not expansion, and its enduring relevance comes from its ability to balance tradition with utility, aesthetics with effectiveness, and safety with spectacle.
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u/Guuichy_Chiclin 16d ago
Blame General MacArthur and the japanese government of the time who went against Kano's wishes.
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u/harderdaddy123456 gokyu 16d ago
That’s exactly what I’m saying, all of this current IJF is AGAINST what Kano taught, if he was alive today and someone said “but what if a wrestler grabs my legs”, he’d probably say, figure out a throw to counter with like Sumi gaeshi or pummeling your leg out and going for the uchimata. He wouldn’t say “ban the leg grabs before they can get to you”, judo has such a lack of places now bc many people quit due to the IJF’s rules on creativity. Literally the only place in my city (major city) closed because like half the people went to bjj cause they could just make stuff up and it’d work compared to judo where it’s not allowed. We gotta tani otoshi the current IJF.
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14d ago
BJJ is a major influence. The Japanese don’t want Judo tournaments to turn into BJJ “guard flop” tournaments.
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u/Yamatsuki_Fusion sankyu 16d ago
Even if leg grabs were allowed, it wouldn't help nearly as much as you'd think. No Gi leg grabs and Gi leg grabs are quite different things.
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u/No_Cherry2477 16d ago
The Kodokan still teaches leg attacks. But they are kind of the only one that knows of.
I like the idea of leg attacks being allowed only as in continuation of a throw, and not as a standalone attack. I say this as a former wrestler as well.
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u/disposablehippo shodan 16d ago
Lots of clubs teach leg attacks, but they are not drilled because there is no reason for drilling something you can't use in competition. It's just as niche as Kata drills.
But at least in Europe there has been a push to get belt exams to include all Kodokan recognized techniques. So if you have your shodan, you will know the names and principles of leg attacks.
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u/PrestigiousAssist689 16d ago
Afaik, leg grabs are still allowed in japanese competitions. It is the international federation, which has no say in Japan, that edicted the interdiction to touch legs.
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u/No_Cherry2477 16d ago
I live in Japan. I've seen some recent leg grabs at the top domestic levels recently, but nothing in the younger groups, which are the future of the sport here.
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u/TheIciestCream rokkyu 16d ago
The only innovation I want is more freedom in gi colors. I'm a simple man you give me a black gi, and you wont here another peep out of me.
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u/zealous_sophophile 16d ago
Judo from the IJF developed into an Intellectual Property based around Olympic recognition and commercial sales.
However it is like comparing the idea ofFIBA owning the NBA and all the other basketball leagues around the world. The NBA is not dependent and exists in a free market.
Judo is completely dependent on money and permission from the IJF. Look at the Shintaro Higashi interviews over USA Judo elections. No money is made from ticket sales, smaller leagues, merchandise, tv deals etc. From a Collective Bargaining Agreement standpoint (NBA negotiates them regularly with the players union) the IJF has compete and utter control.
If Judo players had careers in their hands to do as they pleased then a lot more money and power would also be in their hands.
Judo players generally are very restricted to what tournaments they can enter. They can have bans easily handed out for competing in other grappling arts/leagues.
This all amounts to ownership away from the people, players and public. Kodokan Judo has a syllabus, this has no real challenger and they've kept things static to keep that control. It's a very baby boomer attitude that has manifested at the grass roots level. Most coaches are ancient and not only buy into the IJF but also the idea of falling in line. As a result we're missing around 5x generations of dan grade coaches because a lot of boomers can't play nice and are very possessive ruining clubs.
What's a good sign of this? Go onto loads of clubs on FB, look at their attendance pictures or just do Judo for a long time at lots of clubs. One very old guy, no assistant coaches, no real uchi deshi to pass onto and a cohort of adult learners that completely changes year to year.
So in all..... Gatekeeping.
How many Judo clubs, like a real school, work from a diverse set of principles, books and guest speakers in physical education, self defence and mental training? How many clubs only do one session a week and only with a small group of kids? An alarming amount.
Judo as a set of organisations kept coaches en masse as only volunteers, made people feel selfish if they wanted coach professionally, did not create permanent dojos over the years and did not invest into meaningful expansion. Keep it small, keep it controlled.
If you look at data for mistakes boomers have made en masse, infrastructure not being invested in is rife. Bridges, roads, plumbing.... Everything remained antique.
The BJA held online seminars for the future of British Judo. They just wanted to tick boxes for engaging with the public for grant applications and getting more kids involved. Not once in their manifesto, presentation or posters is Judo mentioned the words martial art, self defence etc. Only sport, kids and more Olympic medals.
Dumb dumb dumb.
What happened in the NBA in the 80's? The league was kept alive by Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. Michael Jordan then took that torch and became bigger than the sport and Olympic games. The IJF won't allow this. Shohei Ono has been the MJ of Judo out of Japan and Teddy Riner of France in their weight classes. If this was the NBA they'd have their own documentary, hall of fame enshrinment ceremony, cable sports analyst job and signature line of merchandise.
Depression in Judo? Highly reported.
No career enrichment and retirement plan after their competitive career ends? For sure.
99% of competitive players quit Judo forever and don't matriculate to coaches once their competitive career ends? Absolutely.
Did Charles Palmer have a feud with Kenshiro Abbe for traditional Judo and how it's taught? For sure.
Have significant Judoka from the 70's and 80's been alcoholics? Tons.
Have university Judo courses been attempted and been unsustainable? Yup.
99% of Judo research is focused on competition throw vectors, injuries and high athlete management. Lifestyle, welfare, self defence, Budo culture.... Barely anything proportionately.
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u/Adept_Visual3467 14d ago edited 14d ago
You are still making an important point that goes way beyond an anti innovation bias. After ww2 atrocities, the Japanese marketing judo to the world as the “gentle” way made sense although competitors may have a different viewpoint. Other grappling sports like bjj grew in popularity and there was political pressure to differentiate from Olympic style wrestling. So they banned attacks on 50% of the body and prohibited high level judoka from cross competing as it sullied the sport. But, martial arts in the USA are market based consumer driven (not subsidized by the government) and are now guided by an overriding mma philosophy advocated by Bruce Lee. That is, learn different martial arts and put them together to create your own style. Since Muay Thai “plugs and plays” more with grappling and effective self defense it has risen in popularity over more style based striking arts such as taekwondo. As judo continues to try to stand apart from other martial arts, it could become like Apple with its own unique OS. On the other hand, it could fail like the Sony Betamax, a superior product that didn’t run on the widely adopted VHS standard. Could you imagine if judo had instead adapted by for example, introducing a newaza based competitive based rule set into the Olympics and allowing all safe takedowns? We would be in a different world today.
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u/jamvodespot 12d ago
It's important to remember that the IJF are trying to regulate the sport at international level. They're trying to keep it looking interesting, so that they can produce highlight reels, and celebrate massive throws, and sneaky newaza scores. The nature of the sport (risk of injury and the gi- lets good players control the rate and effectiveness of attacks). And that means they make decisions for a couple of decisions (at least).
- Quite often the changes they're making are to improve the appearance of the sport, because high level judo, like all high level sport can be absolute shit to watch between two equally matched opponents.
Most combat sports face this problem as well. Boxing can be an absolute snooze fest if you get a couple of defensive geniuses. MMA too, BJJ certainly fits this category. To the best of my knowledge they all attempt to deal with this in one way or another. UFC for example promote higher risk strategies in their fighters by appropriate matchmaking, paying them, and often asking their fighters to fight in a more engaging way.
Things like pistol grips, 2on1, leg grabs have all fit into this category historically. I think the larger kits that are mandated by the current rules might mean pistol grips are less effective, but late '90's when kits were very, very fitted (toraki, you beauty), getting pistol grip effectively meant you could win a match by control, rather than throwing. Great gripping is important, but if it becomes the only focus, you've got a problem.
- If your major stars are always getting injured, and having large amounts of time off, or missing major events your sport will have a problem keeping their fans. the nature of the sport means you're always a hairsbreadth away from injury, but some techniques are riskier than others. Imagine world and Olympic championships repeatedly happening without major stars.
Presumably things like Korean morote and head drive uchimata fit into this category. I think theyve returned because at the high level they don't cause as many injuries as thought.
Might be wrong with this though.
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u/efficientjudo 4th Dan + BJJ Black Belt 16d ago
I'd say your argument is a bit flawed.
If you don't like the IJF because you feel they've moved Judo away from being a martial art to more of a sport rule set, then fair enough
But if your main gripe is lack of innovation - I'd argue one of the driving factors of innovation in Judo is trying to exploit the ever changing IJF rules - lots of variations of techniques are appearing because the old ways of doing things are no longer possible - maybe they're not the most efficient way of doing things in the old ruleset, but they certainly force people to find new ways of doing those old things.