Did I win with an illegal armlock?

[u/milanrobin]

Sorry if these type of questions aren’t allowed here… I’ts been a while since I’ve competed any tournaments. I remember different opponents of mine have complaint to the referee and the judges about: me doing an illegal armlock that made them tap out. Never got disqualified or got negative points. They always said: “It’s just an unusual armlock, but not illegal.” This was actually the fist armlock I was taught. But google and ChatGPT couldn’t help to find these moves either. So now i feel like it was an illegal move….

Let me illustrate it: Uke lays on his back while Tori sits on his stomach, like you’re gonna do a tate-shiho-gatame. Tori grabs Uke’s forearm, makes sure upper arm lays on his Tori’s thigh. And then you just apply pressure to bend the elbow back.

Always felt like a dirty way to win, because of its simplicity + It just felt like an instand win once we got in that position. Cause it was either gonna be. You’re arm around your neck for a hold and if you fight back. I would use their momentum for the armlock and they just tapped out.

There’s only 2 pics I could find on the internet (Not me)

[u/YaBoyDake]

Why would this be illegal? It's uncommon because it isn't going to catch people who are good, but I don't see anything illegal about it.

[u/milanrobin → u/YaBoyDake]

Yeah, usually it’s not really effective, but if you get in that specific position where his arm is already on your thigh. You might as well end it, right? You’d surprised by how many people fall for it. In the heat of the moment it could be a matter of speed/strength.

[u/onomonothwip → u/milanrobin]

Honestly man I don't think you're looking at this quite right. Even WITH his arm over your knee - you don't have all that great of leverage so you're pushing with one hand against his entire arm. All he has to do is rotate his arm and grab your side. You do not have your weight on him, which allows his vulnerable shoulder to shift down to the mat and potentially sweep you or at least completely protect that shoulder. But that's not what I'm really driving at here.

You are halfway to the classic seated arm-bar. His arm is isolated. Control it, slide your same-side leg under the trapped arm and around his face. Finish from seated or better - yank the arm and shoulder upwards and finish squatting.

[u/TMeerkat]

Looks legal to me. It's not going to common past beginners just because it's pretty crude and you don't have a lot of control of the arm but if it works it works

[u/Personal_Pen_6158]

Not illegal.

[u/SucksAtJudo → u/Personal_Pen_6158]

Why not?

Nevermind. I'm too stupid to read

[u/ShadowverseMatt → u/SucksAtJudo]

Why would it be illegal? While illegal things break specific rules, the reasoning for something being legal is always “It broke no rules.”

[u/SucksAtJudo → u/ShadowverseMatt]

I misread the comment I was replying to, and thought they said "not legal".

Fortunately for me, being a dumbass isn't illegal either.

[u/ShadowverseMatt → u/SucksAtJudo]

Happens to the best of us- cheers mate!

[u/LaOnionLaUnion]

That shouldn’t be illegal. I’m surprised people are getting caught in it. I wouldn’t think this would be high percentage beyond the beginner level

[u/Final-Albatross-82]

Asking ChatGPT this question just decimated some small town's ground water supply

[u/judokalinker → u/Final-Albatross-82]

Luckily chatgpt told me that people don't need water

[u/GenerativeAIEatsAss → u/Final-Albatross-82]

Every ChatGPT user: "Wow it's wrong like half the time if I ask it about something I know about, but it's flawless when I don't know shit about a topic. Definitely not something I should be putting together about this!"

[u/Various-Stretch2853]

Perfectly legal ude-hishigi-ashi-gatame ude-hishigi-hiza-gatame. Often done from kesa-gatame, where you stretch Ukes arm over your bottom thigh. May also put your ankle on ukes wrist to help. The ashi-gatame is by definition only when uke is face down, Tori uses his hip and no hands to apply the lock (as published by my local NGB).

Issue here as others said, most likely wont work above beginner level. Also you cant reall apply good force while maintaining control.

[u/smokeyandthebandit4 → u/Various-Stretch2853]

Its hisa. Ashi is with foot.

[u/Various-Stretch2853 → u/smokeyandthebandit4]

Ashi is with leg, not foot...

[u/Puzzled-Comedian-586 → u/Various-Stretch2853]

I would even say its tate-gatame (tate means groin I believe) however in judo this is not a very common name.

[u/Various-Stretch2853 → u/Puzzled-Comedian-586]

It is not a name at all. So it is hiza-gatame, as i said.

[u/Possible_Golf3180]

ChatGPT also can’t find the answer to how many Rs are in “strawberry”

[u/_imightberacist_]

It’s legal

[u/judochop71]

I would question the efficacy of it, but....Nothing illegal here, elbow joint is the right joint for Kansetsu waza. (in Judo, anyway)

[u/EchoingUnion]

... how could this be illegal? It's perfectly fine.

[u/mlktktr]

This move isn't even real

[u/No_Entertainment1931 → u/mlktktr]

Right? Bro must be working with a prosthetic arm to not be able to get out of this

[u/badbluebelt]

It's not illegal, you're just never going to get it on anyone with a damn.

[u/Crimsonavenger2000]

This is one of the very first armlocks we learn here in the Netherlands, though from a different position

Don't see why it would be illegal but it is a little telegraphed

[u/milanrobin → u/Crimsonavenger2000]

GEKOLONISEERD!!! Ik ben ook Nederlands en dit was ook mijn eerste armklem. Misschien leren ze dit hier als eerste armklem omdat hij gwn simpel is en je dan een beetje leert voorzichtig te zijn voordat je de uitgebreide dingen gaat oefenen. Geen idee hou oud jij was toentertijd, maar ik was 8 met leeftijdsgenoten. Dus dan moeten sommigen dat nog leren waarschijnlijk.

[u/Crimsonavenger2000 → u/milanrobin]

Ja ik dacht het al een beetje haha.

Ik ben pas 1,5-2 jaar geleden begonnen met Judo (ben 24) maar moest hem leren voor geel en naar mijn weten leren kinderen diezelfde rijtjes.

Het is inderdaad een armklem die flink zit en waarbij je wel op moet letten. Kost alleen wel een vrij veel controle om überhaupt in de positie te komen om hem te gebruiken (denk dat dat ook is wat sommigen bedoelen dat het bij ervaren Judoka's minder snel werkt)

[u/disposablehippo]

This is the same principle as Te-gatame.

And very common to apply from Kesa-gatame when Ukes arm is already hovering over your leg.

[u/OsotoViking]

It's attacking the elbow joint. Perfectly legal.

[u/Psychological-Will29]

I think ChatGPT just taught itself judo to shodan thanks op

[u/Far_Tree_5200]

No

[u/AdSpare6367]

not illegak

[u/andrewtillman]

I don’t know enough about judo but this isn’t illegal in BJJ. It’s just not a great armlock. No real control. The one on bottom can rotate their arm to not be aligned and get hyperextended pretty easily it seem to me.

Better would be to step behind the back with the left leg bringing his shoulders off the mat and sliding his hand up your it band for a shoulder lock.

[u/don_maidana]

No, hisa gatame.

[u/Jigoro-Krado]

It’s allowed.

It’s momo gatame (or ude hishigi momo gatame). For the Kodokan, it’s simply considered a variation of ude hishigi ashi gatame.

[u/onomonothwip]

I mean, I dont do Judo but I do BJJ. This is just a goofy armbar. It's not effective at all - I'm gonna sweep your ass. That said, if you hit it you hit it. I'm guessing similar to the buggy-choke the hate you are getting is more about embarrassment than anything else.

[u/SucksAtJudo]

First things first... one of the core tenets of judo is "Maximum efficiency, minimum effort". If you can win a match with something this simple... DO IT. It's not "dirty" or illegal to win with an easy technique, THAT IS PEAK JUDO, and I will argue that with anyone.

Judo only allows attacks on the elbow, and this technique is clearly and obviously attacking the elbow so it's not against the rules.

As others have pointed out, it's not going to be a reliable technique against anyone fighting at a higher level than absolute beginner and as soon as your opponent effectively defeats this technique with simple repositioning, trying to fight to keep it or force this to happen will be the exact opposite of "peak judo" that I mentioned above. You don't have the position to get any real leverage and the technique is solely reliant on the strength of your single arm.

There is nothing wrong with this according to the rules, and it certainly is not cheating or "dirty", there are simply much better applications of juji gatame than this in terms of overall strategic application and odds of success.

[u/Careful-Cheetah1016]

Its a stupid technique but legal

[u/birrento]

Elbow ok, shoulder in judo NOK. In this position you need to know that is in the elbow.

[u/Sunslayer096909]

It's legal, as long as it's a submission by elbow joint then it's all accepted by IJF, other joints are also in Judo but just not under IJF rules.

[u/TheOtherCrow]

I'm with the other in agreeing it's illegal while being in slight disbelief that people get caught with this arm lock.