Is standing Kata Guruma viable? Or other methods of Kata Guruma

[u/DeductiveFan01]

Hi all,

I recently learned kata Guruma and I really love the throw however I don’t want to get too fixated on the one I learnt (a cross grip drop version), is there any other variants that are viable?

I’m aware of some like the way Heydarov does his kata Guruma but is standing kata Guruma or more traditional versions still competitively viable? Or from different grips like a belt grip or reverse kata Guruma?

Thanks for the advice :))

[u/witec83]

Most standing versions of Kata Guruma aren't going to be viable in competition because you pretty much have to touch/grab below the jacket somewhere on the leg if you want to have any control over where your uke is going. It's possible to do it standing without grabing the leg, but it's going to be very difficult to get it to work on a resisting opponent. The drop/half-sacrifice/sacrifice versions of the throw are the ones you're most likely to see in a competition.

That said, there are some exceptions: https://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comments/mtinoo/standing_kata_guruma_without_leg_grab_try_to_copy/

https://www.facebook.com/reel/822501850049783

[u/Otautahi]

I used to do a standing kata-guruma when I was young and energetic. You entered as if for the modern version ie forward but lift and throw like kata style.

It’s the version at 0.17 here -

https://youtu.be/cotkZQkNwO0?si=XlKbIbM8MMGmIv5H

[u/Uchimatty]

Yes. Look up Nick Yonezuka’s running kata guruma video - you see that on the circuit a fair bit.

[u/Various-Stretch2853 → u/Uchimatty]

Just did and, as most of the time, not one kata-guruma demonstrated...

[u/Uchimatty → u/Various-Stretch2853]

What would you call it?

[u/Various-Stretch2853 → u/Uchimatty]

Those are (as most of the time) yoko-otoshis. Kata-guruma is not a sutemi-waza, so if the core of the throw comes from you diving/falling into the mat, it cant be kata-guruma anymore. Same with the uki-waza version, where you dive under and fall back - not kata-guruma.

[u/teaqhs → u/Various-Stretch2853]

Who cares

[u/Various-Stretch2853 → u/teaqhs]

Idk, people who dont want to talk bullshit? People actually interested in their sport? People who want to pass their belt exams one day? The guy asking for a specific technique, which is not the one shown? They guy expessly asking what i would call his technique?Take your pick.

[u/fleischlaberl → u/Various-Stretch2853]

Kata guruma is a very versatile throw.

Kata guruma variations from a Godan Exam:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrJ9H0IoQrM&t=0m48s

Kata guruma set ups:

Keep in mind the principles of Kata guruma (shoulder wheel): You have to unbalance Uke on his right or left foot (toes) and you attack the hips of Uke (not the shoulder and not the leg). You load Uke on your neck and throw him in a wheeling motion (guruma) over your shoulders (kata) to the side, front or even to your back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBSJoGYmEko

The Kuzushi is important but to go deep under the COG of Uke and close to his hips is *very* important, because your neck is the fulcrum of the throw and you have to load Uke's *hips* onto your shoulders *in line with your core*. If you attack too high you can't load Uke on your shoulders and he pulls you forward, if you attack from to far away it's the same.

You can also create some reaction (hando no Kuzushi) by putting your weight on Uke before you throw, because Uke tries to regain or keep his upright posture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc28Y28qLP4&feature=youtu.be&t=1m26s

As already mentioned, the classic set up is Ippon Seoi nage to Kata guruma.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOfFQ85WK6s&feature=youtu.be

Last but not least Kata guruma is demonstrated in Nage no Kata (forms of throwing)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6VhTSausIA

(just forget about the stopping when Uke is loaded on your shoulders - do a wheeling motion)

Kata guruma follow ups (combinations and continuations = renraku waza and renzoku waza)

If Kata guruma doesn't work, there are not a lot of combinations or continuations you can do, because you are in a very specific kata guruma posture. If Uke tries to escape backwards, you can go for a variation of Ko uchi gari, recently classified as Ko uchi makikomi

Kata guruma defence and counters

First of all defence against Kata guruma is the same as in Morote gari = sprawling. If you are smarter and faster, you also can just turn and step backwards with your attacked leg - you don't have to sprawl at all. Keep in mind, that your hips are very important for you posture - strong hips and flexible and fast legs are difficult to attack.

As a counter you attack the weak side of Uke's crouched Kata guruma posture and that's his back. Maybe you can't throw him, because he is very deep but after putting back your attacked leg you can pull Uke on his backside and transition to a pin like Kami shiho gatame or Yoko shiho gatame.

Note

As Kata guruma (fireman's carry) is a wide spread technique in many wrestling styles and also can be used in No Gi selfdefence situations, it's an important technique to know both how to attack and how to defend

[u/Various-Stretch2853 → u/fleischlaberl]

Ok, but wouldnt this comment be better placed as an answer to a comment getting it wrong? i dont see any conflict to what i said. At least in your text part and the source material. The selfmade ones are somewhat fishy.

Well aside from the exam video. Variations 1,2, 3 and 6 are fine, but 4 is an uki-waza, as explained here. 5 (twice?) could be considered (and i saw considered by knowledgeable and experienced judoka) more towards seoi-otoshi, but for this im actually not quite sure, its a weired case. what gives me troubles here ist the same 7 is absolutely ko-uchi-makikomi, but i guess it was meant as a combination anyways, so i also stopped here.

And while the kata-guruma part seems nice, the sampson video is titled seoi-nage into kata-guruma and starts off with doing seoi-otoshi. not really motivating intro xp. then he also does the uki-waza mistake, some naming-mistakes and is not part of ijf and suborganisations. the first issues make him a questionable source, the later im not sure exactly, but when talking about definitions, someone outside of the defining organisation might not be the best adress.

[u/fleischlaberl → u/Various-Stretch2853]

Just some thoughts on Kata guruma from a few months ago.

[u/fleischlaberl → u/Various-Stretch2853]

Little bit more time now ...

From the Godan Exam:

4 is a) Kata guruma if you see Uke is loaded by Tori's arms (Te waza) on Tori's shoulders (kata) , wheeling (kuruma) Uke over one shoulder and follow through the throw by bending backwards or Ura nage

4 is b) Ura nage if you see Tori is executing the throw (nageru) by sacrificing (sutemi waza) his balance to his rear (Ura) and is not a follow through . The sacrifice is necassary to execute the technique and is the core rpinciple of the throw.

I definitely tend to 4 a)

It is not? Uki waza. Uki waza is a side sacrifice technique (Yoko sutemi waza) - that's why Uke is landing at his side in your Uki waza video (loading Uke on his shoulders as a variation = henka). In Uke waza Uke is floating (Uki) over his toes. That's not the case in the exam. Uke has a lift off.

5 is a plain Kata guruma from Tori's knees ... In Seoi otoshi Uke is never loaded on Tori's shoulders but - if at all - on Tori's back, as "seoi" is already indicating. Seoi otoshi (Loading / carrying on your back + dropping)

7 is ... what?!? :) There is no Ko uchi makikomi. There are a lot of drop to the knees Kata guruma but no makikomi.

[u/Various-Stretch2853 → u/fleischlaberl]

Yeah in this case ura nage is probably closer. I dont think without sacrificing the throw would be possible. Its only the grip that remain, the throw comes from the selffalling. And as i said yes as well, kata-guruma is more like it on 5. And "7" is at 2:00, there the plain throw is probably done and shes starting with combinations, as i said.

[u/fleischlaberl → u/Various-Stretch2853]

Agree on the Sampson video. Must have done this in a hurry and not really have looked into it. Thanks for your remark!

[u/teaqhs → u/Various-Stretch2853]

Damn bro not that serious

[u/Various-Stretch2853 → u/teaqhs]

Then dont ask questions if you dont want to hear the answer?

[u/teaqhs → u/Various-Stretch2853]

Aight. It’s sad when people’s hobbies end up filling their heart with hate

[u/Various-Stretch2853]

Sadly i dont have any resources available, but the obligatory warning: Basically all "drop-kata-guruma" or similar videos do not show kata-guruma. Those are yoko-otoshi or uki-waza, depending on the direction. Kata-guruma is not a sutemi-waza. What feels like 95%+ of all kata-guruma toutorials, especially in the direction of competition, fall in that category.