r/judo • u/vedant211203 • Mar 27 '22
What's your JUDO UNPOPULAR OPINION??
Long to hear the general consensus of this sub.
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u/Deavs shodan Mar 27 '22
A shido for touching the legs is lame
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u/Jitsuandtravels Mar 27 '22
Reading these I got one:
People base their opinions way too much on their own experiences/small circle around them rather than judo as an global art.
What I mean is that every time someone says "well, judo has strikes..." or "well, WE do leg grabs..." or "well, our instructor..." they don't seem to get the big picture where the 99% (or close) of the world judo clubs don't do that and, thus, these local examples are not a valid point when discussing judo as a whole.
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Mar 27 '22 edited Mar 27 '22
Controlling the back with either both hooks or a body triangle should start the osaekomi clock. Same with pancake. This is to incentivize attaining a guard or standing up to end newaza and not just stall in a losing position.
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u/JapaneseNotweed Mar 27 '22
Completely agree. It's an objectively terrible position in both a fight and even in a grappling match without quick resets. It should be scored following the same reasoning pins are scored - you wouldn't want to be there in a real fight and it's only by virtue of judo groundwork rules that it's a usable defensive position.
(I also think pins should be rewarded more significantly in BJJ, which is a genuinely controversial opinion)
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u/Otautahi Mar 27 '22
When I first started BJJ, I found it so irritating that I would have to work hard to pass someone’s guard, and then THEY would chill out and relax, waiting for me to do something 😂😂
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u/Spirit_jitser Mar 27 '22
I wish people did this. They always fight so hard to keep me from getting a kesa getame.
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Mar 27 '22
They’re pretty rewarded in BJJ already. Passing guard is 3 points as is knee mount and you get 4 points for mount or back mount. More valuable than sweeps or takedowns in that ruleset (although takedowns should be more valuable and guard pulls should be penalized somehow).
The only issue with pins in BJJ is you can’t just hang out in side control or N/S because of stalling. You can’t get called for stalling in mount or back mount. Maybe the way to reward a pinning position is after the 1st 20 seconds you get two more points or something, idk.
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u/JapaneseNotweed Mar 27 '22
Yeah the rolling score every 20 seconds is exactly what I suggested- people can't just chill in the bottom of the pin, the onus would be on them to escape and you wouldnt have to punish the top guy for stalling.
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Mar 27 '22
I wouldn’t want it to continue after the 1st 20 because then you’ve incentivized stalling in side control which artificially inflates the value of any one guard pass.
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u/lamesurfer101 Nodan + Riodejaneiro-ryu-jujutsu + Kyatchiresuringu Mar 27 '22
But what else would help me excuse my complete lack of newaza training???
/s
Do newaza.
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u/dclxviprofligo Mar 27 '22
I don't see this as an unpopular opinion.
I might be biased, but I think that all osaekomi-waza is meant to immobilize an opponent until back up arrives, as a police/guard would do to someone. It is a technique to "arrest" someone without hurting him too much.
If you are controlling his back then your partner could easily take control of his arms and put him on handcuffs. This goes very well with my perception of how the "philosophy" of the technique.
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Mar 27 '22 edited Mar 27 '22
I’ve posted about it before and caught some healthy opposition. Many want to constrict arguments to defend the current rules as if out of loyalty rather than reason.
It reminds me of people in the comments on /r/karate or YouTube defending the DQ in the olympic karate finals because of the knockout. They say “if A knocks B out then he clearly didn’t have sufficient control of the kick so the DQ is justified.” The rules state head contact is allowed as long as it’s not excessive. Like…. It’s a fucking combat sport, can we treat it like one? That’s sycophantic defending of the current ruleset and it’s all over the place in judo and bjj as well.
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u/Otautahi Mar 27 '22
I think if you’re in such a dominant position, it’s up to you to capitalise on it. In judo you can always switch to osae-Komi.
The best way to penalise people who turtle is to develop really devastating turtle attacks.
On the IJF circuit you can see people freaking out when they realise that Funa Tonaki is forcing them to turtle.
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u/nhemboe ikkyu Mar 27 '22
i dont want to be downvoted but: its more a sport than self defense.
i love it, since a little kid, and have used it begore in school fights. but i wouldnt choose judo to learn self defense. not that is useless as self defense, but i dont think that is the most efficient for that.
judo is fun, is healthy and made me more calm people.
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u/Lasserate sandan Mar 27 '22
This is probably only an unpopular opinion in the US.
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u/d_rome Mar 27 '22
Yeah, didn't you know that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is far more efficient for self-defense? /sarcasm
I would have thought in the UK and in other places people would want to do Judo for 'self-defense'. I would have thought that would be a draw to try it out.
Funny thing (funny to me) is that in the United States in most places if you are actually concerned about self-defense you can carry a weapon or at least have one in your home. I've come across people who want to take Judo and BJJ for self-defense and I think to myself, "Bro, we live in the Gunshine State!"
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u/cms9690 Mar 27 '22
The circumstance that allow one to justifiably use a firearm versus a little tack n grapple are very different. Learn both.
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Mar 28 '22
That said, if you do carry then any altercation which escalates to a point you need to use grappling.... you can't forget the fact that there is a gun in the fight and if you fuck up at all they very well could get it from you. That's why I do judo and BJJ for sport only; there are situations where I can't carry and my training will give me a meaningful advantage (on top of my physical advantages) but I'm not betting my life on my body winning.
So my mindset: if you carry you automatically lose every argument. You automatically walk away with your tail between your legs. The last thing you want is an altercation which you thought you could control with your training escalating to you needing to use your weapon when all you had to do was back down.
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u/d_rome Mar 27 '22
Gunshine state, maaaaaan! SYG and the Castle Doctrine down here. Haha! 😄
Maybe I've become old and out of touch but if someone were to randomly attack me, I had no reasonable means of escaping or de-escalating, and I feel like I'm being threatened that would be justifiable use of deadly force. Anything less I'm walking away.
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u/cms9690 Mar 27 '22
You're on point. One of the elements for using deadly force in FL SYG isn't just feeling "threatened", it's reasonably believing it's necessary to prevent death.
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Mar 27 '22
[deleted]
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u/Designer-Issue-6760 Mar 27 '22
I did in high school. Several times. Other kids knew I could fight, so they had a habit.
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u/johnpoulain nidan Mar 27 '22
Its definitely a sport but self defence is a broad spectrum.
Where I believe Judo is good is most altercations don't turn into fights to the death and when someone is being aggressive and pushing you or gripped up and being threatening it's probably not proportionate to push, gouge, or jump guard and joint lock. In these more moderate self defence situations de-escalation techniques are preferable and you'll have more confidence in talking people down if you know how to control grips, have good posture, and don't fear Tachi-waza (stand up grappling).
Also I've been "attacked" by gravity more often than a person and breakfalling has been incredibly useful.
It's better than self described "Street self defence" which boils down to repackaged aikido.
You'd be very hard pressed to find self defence benefit in the amount of time we spend attacking the turtle though. If you're trying to choke someone in the foetal position that's gone way past proportional.
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u/cms9690 Mar 27 '22
Strongly disagree.
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u/judoxing Mar 28 '22
Yeah - any grappling art that uses actual live sparring is going to be pretty good for self-defence. The main issues with sport Judo as a self-defence are the poor habits that come up with only stalling face down in ne-waza to be stood back up. But it's important to note that it's quite unlucky to have to defend against a desperate drug addict who also happens to be a grappler.
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u/cms9690 Mar 28 '22
Same thing could be said about wrestling.. or all the sportive crap that occurs in BJJ.. or the lack of grappling in boxing. Start adding weapons into the mix and it's all mostly nullified to being useless..
There's always going to be a sportive meta in each combat sport. This doesn't mean they are bad for self defense.
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u/ThisIsFlight Apr 08 '22
I learned started judo when i entered the chaotic world of hospital security. I didnt do it for self-defense i did it because i was one of the smallest people in the department and i needed to learn how to fall and get thrown.
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u/vedant211203 Mar 27 '22
Well I feel it's a very good martial art for self defence maybe not the best but a lot of transferable techniques imho
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u/BenKen01 Mar 27 '22
What do you consider better? Not challenging you, just trying to figure out what your criteria is. I’ve trained in a lot of things, mostly striking stuff, and for most real life adult situations grabbing, controlling and getting someone off me is pretty much the most practical and appropriate thing to do. Anything else is an escalation and I’m an adult, I don’t need that shit.
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u/Designer-Issue-6760 Mar 27 '22
It depends on how you train it. Are you training exclusively competition rules? Or the complete art? As a complete art, it’s pretty solid for self defense, but if you only train competition rules, then it’s only useful in a fair fight.
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u/dMCH1xrADPorzhGA7MH1 Mar 28 '22
Judo is really good for self defense. You can throw them on their head and run away. Unless they have a knife. Then a gun is best for self defense.
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u/Designer-Issue-6760 Mar 28 '22
Control the knife hand, and throw them anyway.
At any rate, those of us who train regularly, don’t appreciate how brutal these throws are. Because we get thrown repeatedly. Just walk away, NBD. But on someone who doesn’t know how to fall, getting thrown on concrete? You’ve at least knocked the wind out of them. Probably knocked him unconscious. With some throws, maybe even broken a rib or two. If that’s not enough to stop the threat, you’ve got options. Finish off with sharp blow to the head or sternum. Restrain him till help arrives. Choke him unconscious. Or break something and walk away. Seems pretty solid to me.
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u/SimokIV Mar 27 '22
I mean no martial art is really perfect for self defense. Even MMA has its limits.
In self defense there is no such thing as honor so flee or fight to the death there is no in between. Now of course no martial art is gonna teach you to use deadly force you and your opponent need to survive the fight after all.
Like no(or almost no) martial art is gonna teach you to use techniques such as gouging your opponent's eyes, crushing their balls, using anything laying around to strike a deadly blow be it a knife a rock or anything else, biting your opponent (which by the way, should you not survive your encounter generally requires a trip to the hospital making in really likely your assailant gets caught) or anything else that's generally so effective that it is banned in most martial arts.
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u/linkhandford Mar 27 '22
Too many schools focus on competition above all else and miss out on the traditional jujitsu throws and strikes. Judo has bujitsu elements just most people training today don’t know that.
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u/grapeler Mar 27 '22 edited Mar 27 '22
Jimmy Pedro talks about more recreational judo. I can understand the value, especially from a business perspective. Though I feel like this may be more of an American judo problem than all around problem
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u/linkhandford Mar 27 '22
feel like this may be more of an American judo
I agree. It's something I don't see as much from European and Japanese sensais I've trained with.
All this said, for reference I am a traditional Jujitsu guy who also does Judo, but I mean our curriculum put next to the Kotokan is eerily similar in most areas. Our school just focuses more on the neglected techniques.
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u/Samhain27 Mar 28 '22
Kano was pretty reluctant about competitive bouts for a reason. He seemed to recognize it was a necessary evil insofar as his ideas needed a proving ground, but it ended there. He was known to expel people for bouts under certain circumstances and was also very reluctant about Judo’s Olympic inclusion. For Kano it’s probably because he feared chasing competition would eclipse Judo’s role in education, but it has also done damage to the art outside of that narrow context in general.
IMHO, there are really two major issues at play with sport Judo.
The first is that this is where all the money, opportunities for fame, and infrastructure really is. It’s a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy at this point that people naturally gravitate towards that end of the spectrum.
The second is that the modern culture now is both pretty competitive and fairly centered on instant gratification. People want to get good quick and a really narrow focus facilitates that. There is also the simple reality that most Judoka are recreational—which isn’t a bad thing, it just means they probably don’t have the time for a more “classical” Judoka upbringing. At least in their perspective.
Again, this is all my opinion, but I think this is probably why you don’t really see the Mifune or Kano type Judoka anymore. You know, the guys who seemed like they were throwing you with magic. Instead we have the Ono Shohei’s of the world—and I’m not taking away from that. Shohei is obviously super good, but I also don’t think he’s got the technical skill of a lot of earlier Judoka. This, at least in my view, is because we’ve determined strength training is optimal for getting high level competitors operational. With proper coaching and investment, you can prepare someone for very high level competition in terms of strength in just 5-8 years. Meanwhile, it probably took decades for Mifune to develop his Kuki Nage to a point where he could reliably throw people with it.
I just want to reiterate I’m not saying strength training is bad. I’m all for it, I do it myself. I just think competition culture means the ridiculously sharp timing and finesse of classical judo has been mostly shelved because it’s a much slower burn. You probably get far fewer years in the competitive circuit focusing on that, plus it’s reliant on really solid tutelage that likely isn’t as available as a great strength coach.
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u/linkhandford Mar 28 '22
Completely agree. I’m also very thankful for competitive Judo. It ultimately saved traditional Jujitsu from extinction. I’d just appreciate it if there were more open minded Judoka to the non competitive side of it. I most often find the old guys whose competitive years are behind them are more eager to go over say obiotoshi and ateme techniques.
Again I appreciate competition but it’s not the be all all end all, it’s the tip of the iceberg.
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u/Samhain27 Mar 28 '22
Oh same, I’m not really trying to rag on sport Judo. If you see the state of arts without a sport component, the pattern is that these tend to have a lot of problems. I’m not necessarily in the camp that thinks they are useless per se, but they definitely have problems. Among them is the fact that there is a lot less natural talent simply because there is no formalized competition catching interest.
So same here, I’m very thankful for competition Judo. I just wish more Judoka would try to understand that it is a narrow expression of the full art and there are dangers in that.
I just also believe it’s kind of hard to sell these other modes of Judo to people with out competition being somewhere in the conversation. Maybe a solution is a more open Judo ruleset? Who can say.
All I know for certain is that when people come in the door—especially younger folks—it’s always “what is the best throw for me,” “what should my strength training be like?” and “when is the next local competition.” This is a fine starting point for sure, it’s just hard to talk about strikes or small joint manipulations when the student has already deemed these irrelevant to his personal goals.
EDIT: Writing this, I guess my realization is that this is the real problem. Judo itself isn’t the goal for a lot of people. Judo is often just the vehicle for whatever their actual goal is be it fitness or becoming a local champ. I suppose we can’t control that, but unless someone is coming to the art to explore it for its own sake, I think these other expressions of Judo will always be a hard sell.
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u/linkhandford Mar 28 '22
To play devils advocate, not competing at all has its own set of problems too. I think it is important to be able to apply your practice and finesse how it works for you. But again it’s a fine balance of what you’re working on.
Honestly I’ve been studying martial arts for so long, competition or not, the politics is really at the heart of what bugs me most of all. I just want to train and not have to deal with all the problems out there. Win or loose, shut up and do yourself better, your only opponent should ever be you.
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u/Vedicstudent108 ikkyu Mar 28 '22
Rather than saying competition is the tip of the iceberg, I'd say it was a branch of the tree. A branch far from the trunk.
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u/GymShaman Mar 27 '22
Judo should be divided like wrestling, traditional with old rules and modern judo with present rules.
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u/vedant211203 Mar 27 '22
Isnt free style judo federation attempting to do that?
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u/Construction_Man1 Mar 27 '22
I wish free style judo was more of a thing. I go to a USA Judo affiliated school and I do enjoy it a lot but as a former wrestler I struggle with not going for the legs. It feels handicapped. Muscle memory is a bitch
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u/Otautahi Mar 27 '22
That’s not actually dividing things. It’s just offering recreational players alternative rulesets. Where I live, an alternative governing body has done this for years. It’s a great model, but doesn’t mean judo is divided.
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u/GymShaman Mar 27 '22
I am not a native english speaker so in my mind it didnt sound so bad like you described it. I agree it should be more of an option rather than divide.
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Mar 27 '22
Reversed Korean Seoi-Nage shouldnt have been banned
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Mar 27 '22
What was it banned for?
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u/aronnax512 Mar 28 '22
Officially "Safety"
Realistically, it's not that pretty and made the wrong people lose.
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u/dclxviprofligo Mar 28 '22
Judo should also train no-gi. No matter how much you argue that, internationally at least, the objectives of the art aren't self-defense anymore, you cannot deny the importance of this aspect in the history of Judo and its growth, taking the examples of it being used to train the japanese police, by instance.
This said, the traditional gi exists because it was the kind of clothing you expect a 19th century eastern asian to be wearing. In this day and age you can have to deal with a shirtless guy around, so no-gi training should be mandatory.
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u/Shrodax shodan Mar 28 '22
It shouldn't count as Ippon if during a throw, tori lands in such a way that uke can immediately apply Osaekomi.
For example, I'm pretty good at applying Sumi-Gaeshi as a counter to throws like Ouchi-Gari, Kouchi-Gari, etc. as I'm falling. My back hits the mat, I sweep, and then immediately land on top. However, the current Judo ruleset gives Ippon to the person who did the initial throw because my back hit the mat, which I think is dumb because if someone gets immediately pinned after doing a throw, they didn't have good control over that throw. And Sutemi-Waza is an established part of Judo canon, yet it can be penalized when doing it because of what gets considered as an Ippon.
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u/Jitsuandtravels Mar 29 '22
This all the way. If your magnificient all-in-all-out uchi mata is a fancy flip directly under your opponent, who's really in charge there? Like, isn't using your opponents strength and movement against them the number one fundamental principle of judo? If you don't stay on top, it should not be your throw.
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u/lucid-waking Mar 27 '22
I return to the mat after a short break (about a decade) someone is waving there leg in front of them like they can't decide to tomenage or cancan, so I grab the raised leg and sweep the other... Apparently not allowed.
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u/wingingitman nidan Mar 27 '22
Must have been a while. I think they made that illegal in the '09 rule update... Surprise! Also, yukos and kokas are gone, so that's positive at least.
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u/Environmental_Wait19 Mar 27 '22
Grip fighting is absolutely crucial in having success with your judo and probably the most beneficial training you can have prior to competition.
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u/ivanovivaylo sandan Mar 28 '22
The Judo cult.
The presence of people, who's only purpose is to "explain" what Judo is, what Kano "wanted to say", the "only proper way to execute a throw" and etc.
They all have something in common- low competition results.
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u/NittanyOrange Mar 27 '22
Too many new people miss the goals 'maximum efficiency' and 'mutual benefit' because they're too worried about building muscle, winning at all costs, or cross-training or whatever.
Whenever I would come across a muscle-head try-hard or someone who also does BBJ go through a month of Judo and still try to just dominate in randori, I usually foot-sweep the shit out of them until they ask what they did wrong.
You have to actually learn and internalize the goals of Judo and leave your preconceived notions and goals at home.
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u/Snoo82400 yonkyu Mar 27 '22
I actually set this as my main priority right now, putting everything else on halt. This is what's is hindering me the most and my sensei won't let me rise to yellow until I show that I can grasp this.
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u/kistusen Mar 27 '22
And if they ask what do you tell them?
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u/NittanyOrange Mar 27 '22
Judo isn't about physically dominating someone in practice, especially if they are smaller than you.
There is no mutual benefit, nor (usually) energy efficiency.
Kano was quite small, and he created Judo as a way to overcome size, so your actions are contrary to the spirit and goals of Judo.
So stop being a meat head or you're going to be choked out by one of the black belts and I can't promise they'll let go when you tap. 😁
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u/Kahje_fakka nikyu Mar 27 '22
Judo has been sportified too much. The ruleset, the focus on shiai, the lack of focus on the philosophy and everything with that have harmed judo more than they did it good.
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u/MischaTheJudoMan shodan Mar 27 '22
Don’t care what belt you are, gotta do warm-ups like everyone else. You’ll Regress if you get lazy
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u/ReddJudicata shodan Mar 27 '22
Im gonna go with a no on that. I’d much rather warm my old ass up with what I know I need to prevent injuries.
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u/MischaTheJudoMan shodan Mar 27 '22
So….. you’re warming up
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u/ReddJudicata shodan Mar 27 '22
My personal warrmups. The judo warmups usually are dumb.
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u/mysteriousyak Mar 27 '22
I'd say it's less about regressing and more about skipping warmups makes it way easier to get injured.
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u/Bubbly-Assignment381 Mar 27 '22
IJF is ruining Judo
I know their trying to make it a spectator sport and I know they've got millions people to do judo, but these rules and regulations are damaging the art, not the sport,
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u/JaxBratt Mar 27 '22
Judo, at least once you get to some more hard core grip fighting, actually helps you to develop pretty good “hands” especially for a non striking art. (might not be as unpopular with this sub but if I said that in mixed company with strikers who’ve never advanced to that level in judo they’ll reject it). Granted I’m not comparing it to high level striking but just saying don’t sleep on a skilled judoka’s hands.
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u/BenKen01 Mar 27 '22
As someone who self-identified as “a striker” for years I was really stoked to learn about grip fighting in Judo. I find it really fun in a similar way to sparring in striking arts. I still massively suck, but it’s fun.
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u/Designer-Issue-6760 Mar 27 '22
Judo isn’t, strictly speaking, a non-striking art. While prohibited in competition, it has its own atemi waza. Utilizing body strikes for kuzushi, and a strong defense against strikes. Unfortunately, it’s rarely taught outside of a few katas.
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u/Ashi4Days Mar 27 '22
Belly down should be penalized, either by points or allowing for more Newaza time.
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u/d_rome Mar 27 '22
Calisthenics in Judo are a colossal waste of time.
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u/BenKen01 Mar 27 '22
Absolutely. I switched gyms a few months ago. The previous one took a HS wrestling practice approach to Judo that was brutal. Im an adult, im not doing that shit year round. That’s not why I left but I sure as hell don’t miss it.
New one is more like “conditioning is your responsibility. Ask us for training programs to do outside of class, but we’re gonna focus on Judo during class. If you can’t hang, well now you know”.
I do agree it does make sense for kids classes like the other guy said. But as an adult I’m paying to learn judo, not to do push-ups and jumping jacks for an hour. Getting gassed and ragdolled by smaller training partners in randori is motivation enough to put in some work outside of class.
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Mar 27 '22
I'm not so sure that's the case for everyone. Of course, in the case of actual judoka who know judo, a regime consisting of randori plus uchikomi/nagekomi plus weight training is pretty much all you need. However, in the case of children for instance, doing specific calisthenics can reinforce the basics, and adapting them to judo-specific requirements can result in more explosive leg power and so on. Of course, this is all anecdotal, from my experience teaching children, but I find that targeted calisthenics work wonders to prepare for a solid uchi-mata, for example.
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u/d_rome Mar 27 '22
I really meant for adults. The general calisthenics can be very helpful for kids and teens who are trying to improve muscular coordination and agility. I think beginner adults are put at risk unnecessarily by having them do the same exercises due to not being as pliable.
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u/Otautahi Mar 27 '22
Unless they’re from the 70s and involve neck stands and hundreds of sit-ups. Those build character.
Even more effective when everyone takes their jackets off and trains in judo pants and belts.
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u/d_rome Mar 27 '22
Even more effective when everyone takes their jackets off and trains in judo pants and belts.
I've been in this situation except with the jacket on.
In Florida.
In 90 degree (32 celcius) heat.
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u/Judotimo Nidan, M6-81kg, BJJ blue III Mar 28 '22
The US judoka on reddit assume the problems of Judo in the USA apply to Judo in general
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u/M3atboy ikkyu Mar 27 '22
If your using your leg or foot to “pop” someone over your not doing Tai Otoshi.
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u/JayaTheShroomer Mar 27 '22
Not opinion, this is facts.
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u/M3atboy ikkyu Mar 27 '22
I’ve had senior Dan grades “pull rank” on me over this before so it must be some kind of hot take…
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u/LingonberryLeading49 Mar 27 '22
Even though we clasify techniques for their most important aspect you hae to use your whole body, can't do a tai otoshi without using your leg, of course the hand action is the most important but the leg pop is also essential
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u/ukifrit blind judoka Mar 28 '22
No it is not. I can leg block for days and not throw anyone. When I can position my legs the right way I don’t need to make any contact to actually throw. The leg is there, as others pointed, to make it harder to Uke regain their balance. The same doesn’t apply for harai-goshi.
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Mar 27 '22
Is the leg pop actually essential? I am taught it without; that the leg essentially just blocks uke from stepping forward and rebalancing.
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u/LingonberryLeading49 Mar 27 '22
You can look at the official kodokan video on youtube and see it there
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u/OriginaljudoPod Mar 27 '22
The reverence of historic judoka that people have never seen is similar to the reverence of Bruce Lee- absolute nonsense.
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u/Whiskyinthejaw shodan Mar 27 '22
Hikomi-waza should be more known/popular. Can be really fun techniques, but I do admit they can be tricky for Uke.
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u/kaioken96 sankyu Mar 27 '22
Kata is boring and impractical
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u/uranaged Mar 28 '22
What is kata
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u/kaioken96 sankyu Mar 28 '22
Judo has its own pre-scripted forms like for throws, striking and knife defence. I don't know any Kata personally but I've seen some done and it doesn't look great.
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u/BootsLikeMafia shodan Mar 27 '22
A lot of the people who complain about the "sportification" of judo, or a focus on randori, are usually unathletic hobbyists who currently don't or haven't competed much anyway. It also seems like something I hear from Americans more than anyone else.
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u/Poodle_Thrower nidan Mar 27 '22
Its always the guy using a candy belt to wrap around his gut complaining about "strength"
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u/zhigita Mar 27 '22
This will definitely be unpopular, but from a very personal perspective I like the leg grab ban and I have never missed it since it was introduced.
Purely because I started judo as a tall girl (taller than any training partner and opponent that I faced at the time) and many competitions for me would be the opponent running towards me bent over and grabbing my ankles and me falling for a koka. Get up and repeat, which almost made me leave the sport. Of course, with my current skill and knowledge I would know what to do in that situation but I remember many competitions going that way for myself and others, and it was rather unwatchable (at the kids competition level, not elite adults) and frustrating as you would hardly ever see good throws, and mostly it'd just be kids who didn't know any other techniques.
Again, that's a very biased personal perspective and I understand why in a wider context people still miss leg grabs. Perhaps there should be age/skill level from which you are allowed to train them, similar to shime waza (gues that depends on the country)
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u/kakumeimaru Mar 27 '22
I was training once at a heterodox grappling gym that was mainly focused on newaza-heavy judo and Sambo. One guy, a black belt who was good enough to try out for the Abu Dhabi Combat Club, was doing randori with me. He squats down, and then shoots for a double. I let it go at the time, but looking back on it, I think it was a real dick move. We hadn't been practicing doubles that day or any other day recently, and I was clearly a beginner, while he clearly was not a beginner. What was even the point of that? Some ego thing? Some dominance display?
I eventually stopped going there. The place closed down a few years ago, but I don't think I'd go back even if it were still open.
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u/Hendersenpai shodan Mar 27 '22
I honestly don’t care too much for the philosophical or spiritual parts of judo. I show up to practice 5 days a week and to team lifts in the morning to get better at throwing people, and to do better at competitions where the point is to throw people.
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u/Lasserate sandan Mar 27 '22
The old masters weren't super heroes. Fighters like Mifune, Tomita, Yoshitsugu, and Kimura would likely get rocked by modern competitors.
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Mar 27 '22
Not sure about Tomita, but I'm very sure Kimura would do just fine today. His physical prowess was out of this world, by today's standards as well. Mifune might have done quite well too, by technical prowess alone. That said, we simply cannot and should not judge. It's absolutely impossible to know what those people would've done had they trained using modern methods, proper nutrition etc.
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Mar 27 '22
Of course modern S&C plays a huge role in this, but I don't see why technical wizards like those mentioned wouldn't be smashing it if they had been born in the 1990s.
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u/Docteur_Pikachu ikkyu Mar 27 '22
I'm fine with every rule of sport judo and quite dislike the constant whining about it EXCEPT for the forbidden choke over the chin of uke which should not be a thing (just being passive with your chin in should not outright save you).
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u/Popular-Debate-1405 shodan May 16 '22
I'm late but I completely agree. I also dislike how using the forearm to move the head back and expose the airways is banned and classified as a neck crank.
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u/chadsvasc Mar 27 '22
The ruleset changes are made by a bunch of old has beens who barely practice anymore that end up reducing the overall efficacy of Judo in anything other than an IJF rulesets
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Mar 27 '22
Judo will continue to lose popularity in the Olympics until its out. That will be the best thing to happen as it can recreate itself and go back to the self defence/mma route which it could easily gain popularity.
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u/ExtremeNew6308 Mar 30 '22
Or open it up to BJJ. The best thing my gym did was move under a big BJJ gym. I'd love to see some relaxed judo events during BJJ tournaments where participants can use their BJJ gis
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u/lepidopterophobiac Mar 29 '22
If you roll uke onto the back, it should not be ippon. There should be thuds for it to be considered ippon. I would like judo to be a throwing sport, not a pyjama-shoulder-touchy-floor-wrestling sport. Ken ken uchi mata and drop seoi tend to be throws that come up with ippon even when uke falls but in a way with no thud. There’s no way you can convince me that a ken ken uchi mata with no significant thud and a lifting uchi mata hold the same level of merit. There’s no way you can convince me that a drop seoi otoshi that kind of just wraps uke around tori with tori kind of just rolling and crunching afterwards has the same level of merit as a drop seoi otoshi where uke is lifted and and their hip is flung over almost as if to draw a rainbow over tori.
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u/ExtremeNew6308 Mar 30 '22
- Nogi judo doesn't exist. It's called wrestling.
- The 3 second limit for grip attacking should be extended.
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u/DadJudo shodan Mar 27 '22
Kata should be more popular
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u/bull_in_chinashop Shodan Mar 27 '22
That is indeed an unpopular opinion! :D
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u/Designer-Issue-6760 Mar 27 '22
It’s a whole other discipline, but under the current environment, it’s the only way to learn the other aspects of judo not used in competition.
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u/Tafsky Mar 27 '22
I just don’t like the competitions. My parents used to make me compete when I was younger and the anxiety was killing. Now that I’m older and am fully focusing on techniques I’m back to enjoying judo
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u/Vanilladr Mar 27 '22
I was going to ask this in a day or two haha the BJJ thread went crazy!
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u/vedant211203 Mar 27 '22
Yea saw your thread nice turn up you got over there. Much more than this will get
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u/jitsplayer Mar 28 '22
That its BS that if you get thrown and hit the ground but are able to ride your opponents moment and end up on top when the momentum stops you still lose.
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u/MOTUkraken Mar 28 '22
- make leg grabs legal
- make leg locks legal
- abandon complicated rules
Also unpopular outside of the Judo community: Judo is perhaps the only Martial Art that managed to combine being a modern effective way of Fighting with a traditional system, an elect belt ranking system AND an ingrained way of developing character, requiring honorable behaviour "even" from the highest athletes. That combination makes it one of the most formidable Martial Arts in existence.
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u/nae_pasaran_313 Mar 29 '22
Teddy riner is a boring judo player with poor technique who got lucky to come into his prime just as the rules changed to protect his legs and collar grip.
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u/Succodimela nikyu Mar 30 '22
-I think that trying to "defend" judo saying that it also has strikes is counterproductive, the striking part is basically not taught and if so only when you are near the black belt (Do we really need to talk about the quality of judo's striking component? Let's just ask yourself "If I had to learn how to strike would I even consider judo's striking? Would that make me eventually a sklilled striker?)
Judo is a grappiling art, period. Everything else, for me, is just bujutsu (?) heritage and not even the good one.
- I really don't care for leg grabs, I would like to learn them and get good with those because of self defense, but sportwise I can live with that, they don't really seem *judoesque* to me if I have to be honest.
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Mar 30 '22
People need to stop worrying if their martial art will work in a street fight, specifically as it relates to judo I’ve heard people say ‘bring back leg grabs because that’s more realistic’. Getting in a street/bar fight is unlikely and often avoidable, and if it does happen you’re probably going to freeze or flail your arms. Whether or not you’ve trained leg grabs likely won’t make a blind bit of difference. What will however likely happen is that you can compete in judo, therefore we should make rules that are safe to play by and entertaining to watch. You can argue leg grabs are more entertaining without being dangerous and that’s an acceptable argument to bring them back, but it irks me when people say bring back leg grabs for ‘real life situations’. If you want to train ‘realistically’ go to MMA
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u/MaskOffGlovesOn Mar 27 '22
The ruleset is not only fine right now, it's actually a lot better than it was in 2011. Did you guys watch judo back then? It sucked. It was passive, defensive, it was basically useless for self-defense. I gotta assume most people lamenting the "end of judo" as a result of these rule changes never actually practiced back then.
Also, they didn't make the change to ban wrestlers from the sport. The caucuses have only gotten better at judo since then so it didn't work even if that was the goal. But if you watch those matches you can see that they aren't wrestling. Bending over as far as possible and jumping on an awkward single only to pancake the moment your opponent's ass hits the matt isn't wrestling, it's bad judo. If they were shooting, getting to a seatbelt, dodging the arm-in guillotine, and slamming their opponent, there wouldn't be a problem. But that's just not what was happening.
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u/Thek40 Mar 28 '22
Bending over as far as possible and jumping on an awkward single only to pancake the moment your opponent's ass hits the matt isn't wrestling, it's bad judo. If they were shooting, getting to a seatbelt, dodging the arm-in guillotine, and slamming their opponent, there wouldn't be a problem. But that's just not what was happening.
watching 2 guys shooting for kate guruma for an entire match was not fun.
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u/lucid-waking Mar 27 '22
Judo was better before it got all sportified..
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u/vedant211203 Mar 27 '22
Aren't there benifits to the same like for eg we got to know the high percentage moves and more eyeballs never hurts.
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u/d_rome Mar 27 '22
How would you know? Were you alive and practicing Judo prior to the creation of the IJF?
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u/Otautahi Mar 27 '22
The leg grab ban didn’t change judo
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Mar 27 '22
Ayyyyyy tough take man. They wanted positive judo, but people are still taking grips for 30s.
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u/ukifrit blind judoka Mar 28 '22
Americans are annoying as hell with that “IJF is our enemy because we can’t compete in judo and MMA and BJJ and sambo at the same time / they don’t let us try shitty kibizu-gaeshis anymore” bullshit. Judo is a god damn mess in your country and IJF has nothing to do with it. I mean, there are some valid points to these claims but generally you guys just talk shit like USA should be the centre of everything, including judo. Please grow up.
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u/SmokeHogan206 Mar 27 '22
Don’t know if this is gym specific, but there should be dedicated tachi waza randori only days. My bjj gym does no gi rounds only every Friday. It’s probably our busiest day. No lesson, not even warm ups (do em on your own) and start the clock. Our casual instructor did that one time and I felt like it would do wonders for my development.
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Mar 27 '22
I actually like the penalties for passivity such as breaking grips and disengaging. Does make it easier to watch.
I do BJJ and I hate watching high level stuff of it, I get it’s more methodical but it gets boring. No GI looks weird with all the leg lock stuff going on.
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u/ska4fun Mar 27 '22
The pathetic state of affairs in newaza is result of Kano's prejudice against ground fighting.
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u/cdawg_saltyboi Mar 27 '22
The red belt shouldn’t be used in a way to signify someone’s membership to the club / association. Nor should it be a Kyu grade belt. It should just be a different kind of white belt.
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u/lepidopterophobiac Mar 29 '22
What do you mean by this? The default understanding in Judo is that if you’re wearing a red belt, you’re 9th dan or above or you’re fighting from the red belt side as opposed to the white belt side in competitions.
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u/cdawg_saltyboi Mar 29 '22
In some countries a red belt is used to denote a white belt (very rare though).
I actually recently found out about it in this sub, I found it really strange that some clubs would do this
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u/lepidopterophobiac Mar 29 '22
If it denotes a white belt then why should it be a different white belt?
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u/i_shot_1st Mar 28 '22
That the changes to the rules in the last 6 years have been good, safer and more appealing to watch now.
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u/lamesurfer101 Nodan + Riodejaneiro-ryu-jujutsu + Kyatchiresuringu Apr 01 '22
Late to the party. Here's mine:
Judo is taught wrong as fuck for adults. Seriously.
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u/GermanJones nikyu Mar 27 '22
Japanese Judo is overrated
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u/d_rome Mar 27 '22
Please explain. Do you mean the competitors or AJJF or skill set of regular practitioners?
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u/GermanJones nikyu Mar 27 '22
It's a bit hard to say after the last Olympics but before that the Japanese Judoka, especially the male, where good but not as good as you would've expected by the number of talent, the system they have and history of great athletes. It changed for the better when Inoue took over.
The sport is halfway mandatory in school, you can get scholarships for High School and University and even a job through your Judo achievements. The number of college/adult Judo athletes is pretty high compared to other countries and they basically have a former world class athlete as a coach at every other school. Also a lot of funding as it is the national olympic sport. You would expect that the results always look like Tokyo 2020 but in 2012 they only took 1 Gold medal and only medalled in half of the weight classes.
They also lost to France in the Tokyo 2020 Team competition, but that is a bit unfair as France possibly has the largest amount of Judoka in total and the weight classes were in favor of France. Not to forget the unimaginable talent that Clarisse Agbegnenou packs, beating the Olympic Champion a weight class above.
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u/Otautahi Mar 27 '22
I think that Inoue really showed how important leadership, innovation and values are for success.
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u/badbat4000 yonkyu Mar 27 '22
(I don’t understand this but) I think maybe a small small reason why judo isn’t popular in the USA is because of the culture that comes with it, I’ve read that people think bowing before getting on the mat and to your parter is weird and having to learn all the moves in Japanese is dumb
but also (this is my opinion) there’s a pro to having judo be so unpopular in the us that if you’re ever in an altercation with someone that bad, it will almost always catch people off guard if you need to use it
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u/aronnax512 Mar 28 '22
Judo is not popular in the US because folk wrestling was already deeply integrated into the culture and education system by the time Judo made it to the US.
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u/Bohemio_RD Mar 28 '22
The IJF is going to kill judo due to its pussification with all these rules.
Also. Bring back leg grabs ffs!
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u/crashcap Mar 28 '22
Koka and Yuko were good for the sport.
Leg grabs were also good.
Overly competitive dojos suck. Let participants grow and if they feel like it they will train more focused
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u/dMCH1xrADPorzhGA7MH1 Mar 28 '22
The ijf makes judo worse. The kodokan should replace the ijf. Everyone should wear white gis. The rules in international judo competitions should model the rules of the kodokan cup.
However, if someone is turtling on the ground and just being defensive to get stood back up it's not a true stalemate and they shouldn't be stood back up.
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u/--commanderclam-- Mar 28 '22
Sure I'll bite - Soto Makikomi is a legit technique and not just a cheap no technique flop-throw for fat guys. I see drop knee seio nage spamming as just as bad. (Also makikomi is not that hard to escape/avoid.)
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Mar 28 '22
Judo is too competitive.
BJJ for example has a place at the table for recreational hobbyists and ultra competitive people.
In Judo its much harder to find clubs that are non-competitive. It's likely to do with the Batsugun method incentivizing winning matches to get promotions, but it's much harder to simply jsut be a hobbistt in Judo. Your class will be filled will always be filled with competitive people trying to get ahead.
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u/Joelgerson Mar 27 '22
That it’s better for kids to train it than have adults start training in it. Too many injuries for adults and too uncomfortable a sport. Adults should do BJJ. Source: I’m black belt in both and have taught both for over 35 years.
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u/vedant211203 Mar 27 '22
What would u say would be a cut off for age
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u/Joelgerson Mar 27 '22
That’s a good question. Depending on the persons level of fitness and the dojo they train in, could be 19 or could be 29, depends if they like their knees and shoulders or not.
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Mar 27 '22
As someone who's about to turn 29 and values his knees and ankles, time to go BJJ. As someone whose 1/2 heavy injuries (left knee ligaments) came from a BJJ black belt fucking up a tani-otoshi... not so much.
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u/peegmay Mar 27 '22
There is throwing in judo but you are less likely to get your joints twisted in the training session compared to bjj, wouldn’t you agree that getting your elbows and knees hyperextended on every training session is more „body-destroying” than typical judo trainings?
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u/Rapton1336 yondan Mar 27 '22 edited Mar 27 '22
In the US it’s been my experience that many red and white belts aren’t very knowledgeable about contemporary competition judo. Particularly in cases where someone’s competitive career was before the 1990s.
Also people need to remember that those ranks are a recognition of extraordinary contributions to the judo community (which is amazing). It doesn’t necessarily correlate to high level shiai relevant knowledge.
Flip side is many high level shiai focused players don’t know many of the “higher mysteries of the force” so to speak. Things like kata and history, etc.