r/magetheascension • u/alolanbulbassaur • 2d ago
How exactly does Islam have a place among mages?
Im a muslim myself and I love all the traditions and how diverse they all are but something that seems odd to me is that theres muslim mages with an emphasis on Islam in the form of the Celestial Chorus. Im new to mage the ascension only having just gotten into it by proxy by liking VTM after I got into it last year. But weirdly enough muslim vampires make more sense to me than mages because there was a muslim vampire in the form of Draculas brother Radu and some vampires not wanting to be vampires along with the asshira as a whole and Islams core belief of forgiveness and mercy.
But in The Quran it specifically mentions otherwise that in Babylon two angels came down and brought magic down as a test. Then they said that if you accepted magic you're failing it. Theres also other stuff about it having to do with jinns.
So is there like a mage version of The Ashirra? I heard about these guys called the Ahl-i-Batin but Ive yet to know more about them. Personally for a muslim The Order of Hermes makes more sense or Virtual Adept since they seem to treat magic not in a religious way.
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u/Dakk9753 2d ago
I believe there are multiple Middle Eastern "crafts" based on myths and legends in the region, but it's not really Islamic, unless you take esoteric occult stuff.
Edit: just double checked, Ahl-i-Batin and Taftani
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u/GreatOldGod 2d ago
Taftani are very specifically adherents of pre-Islamic faith. The advent of Islam nearly wiped them out even before the Order of Reason got started.
Batini, on the other hand, are predominantly Muslim.
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u/Technocracygirl 2d ago
There's nothing that says that a Muslim can't be any of the Traditions. (Okay, you might have a hard time finding a Muslim Verbena.)
If a Muslim believes that they are a vessel through which Allah performs His Will on earth, yeah, that Muslim might be a Chorister. But if they can create scientific marvels by harnessing the power of etheric energies? They're an Etherite, who also happens to be a practicing Muslim. Indonesia is a majority-Muslim country with plenty of cultural touchstones that they share with other societies in SE Asia. I bet there's plenty of Indonesian Akashics who are Muslim. Why not?
Your character's religion can be as close (or as far) to their paradigm and Tradition as you want it to be.
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u/alolanbulbassaur 2d ago
I love how unlike the other comments you didn't just mention the "middle east". That makes me happy as a Central Asian.
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u/Divinityisme 1d ago
Among the modern traditions, the most common places to find muslims are the celestial chorus and the order of hermes as both are heavily abrahamic groups. Though the order is more studious than faithful typically in regard to it.
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u/Illigard 2d ago
You have the Ahl-i-Batin, best represented in Mage the Sorcerers Crusade. You can think of them as Al-Khidr if you want. Magic squares is a part of their arsenal. Odd thing about them though, in Islamic culture they started off as math, and only later were associated with the occult. You can just ignore that part though
Order of Hermes makes sense, if you see it from an occult science perspective. It's studying the supernatural systematically. It's tricky but doable. Real world Hermeticism actually owes Islamic culture as some of the books from the Islamic Empire formed parts of it. Best known example is the Emerald Tablet.
The Web of Faith might be interesting reading. It has mainly Islamic Mage groups, including the Mokteshaf Al-Nour which are a group of Islamic scientists. You could consider them a sort fictional version of the "Brethren of Purity" who were a 9th-10th century group of Islamic philosophers and proto-scientists known amongst other things for a theory of evolution.
If you ignore the whole "One" concept of the Celestial Chorus and rewrite them to be an umbrella for faith orientated magic, they would suit.
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u/DementedJ23 2d ago
christians also have a proscription against magic, but american christian roots are also steeped in folk magic: dowsing and seeing and charms for love and fertility. roman catholicism looks exactly like many other traditions of high magic.
the ahl-i-batin predate islam, but converted because they saw much of the philosophy as a natural extension of the doctrine of unity that they practiced; a philosophy that emphasized subtlety and was aimed towards finding the underlying connections between all things. they also converted because the rise of islam was generally helping to fight the hordes of jinn and nephandi that had been threatening the region for a long time.
now, personally, i'd bet that the mid-90s predominantly white suburbanite creators of the game line didn't really know much more than a pamphlet's worth of islamic teachings, because researching things before the internet was hard, yo. so there's that to consider, but also: consider that the celestial chorus that are christian are secret heretics to the church at large. they also comprise a ton of very non-abrahamic and even not-particularly-faith-based philosophies amongst their membership. and, as always, it's worth thinking about how many of the traditions are just satire or pastiche of existing (almost always western) magic(k)al practices. go check out the occult subreddits and you'll find people talking about "returning to source" and "aligning with the infinite" and actually even discussing their paradigms, which i always thought was too "game-y" to really engage in in-character. but the further east you got, the less reliable info was available to the early creators. ask someone from southeast asia about their opinion of the akashics. here's a hint: they're usually not impressed.
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u/silly-stupid-slut 1d ago
My personal take is that character's in the game world talk about their paradigms as the things they want the consensus to embrace, but it doesn't. The game is more in your face political this way: you believe in the speed of light the same way you believe in a highway speed limit.
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u/DementedJ23 1d ago
after experiencing more real occult-oriented cultures, they'll just talk about them the same way i spoke above table to players about their character's views, so i've gotten more comfortable with that.
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u/XenoBiSwitch 2d ago
Christianity forbade magic but there were Christians practicing it. Islam forbade magic but there were muslims practicing it.
Pointing at a prohibition and saying that means it didn’t happen is silly. Fornication and adultery were forbidden too but that didn’t have a lot of impact.
If you have to say it is banned and reiterate that it is banned that means there are people out there doing it.
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u/silly-stupid-slut 1d ago
It does seem more contradictory to practice magic specifically by drawing your power from a cultural tradition that rejects magic. Like if magic is a sin, how exactly am I using magic to summon an angel?
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u/XenoBiSwitch 1d ago
It seems that way but that is exactly how it worked. I am more familiar with Christian magic but you basically had a necromantic underground within the church. A lot of clergy trading grimoires of spells. They used magic and the spells often used the names of God and angels to power them.
It is also important to not that while magic was considered a sin for a long time that isn’t as scary as it sounds. Fornication was a sin. Gluttony was a sin. Lots of Christians still did them. Things got ugly in the Early Modern Period when magic got shifted from sin to heresy. Then you get the craziness of the witch trials where people were convinced that magic users were part of an international conspiracy against the faith itself where witches made pacts with the devil to overthrow Christendom. The witches were carried away to hold a black sabbath where they performed perverse sex acts with the devil, each other, and other demons.
There was no real evidence to support the existence of this conspiracy. It was like the Satanic panic of the 80s. A melding of a moral panic and an unhinged conspiracy theory.
Before that magic was seen as kind of vaguely naughty. Universities were constantly telling students to stop practicing magic but didn’t give you more than a slap on the wrist if you did so the practice of magic flourished. Some form of magic were even variants on exorcism. After all if you can command a demon to leave can’t you also command a demon to do something else? Also can’t you do the same to an angel since demons are fallen angels?
You can always rationalize your way around a religious prohibition if you really want to.
There were also attempts within Islam to develop a more naturalistic explanation for magic that wouldn’t be taking over stuff that is limited to God. Al-Kindi’s stellar ray theory is the one I am most familiar with.
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u/efan78 20h ago
The key thing to remember is that you're not using magic to summon an angel. Your belief in God and the power that they grant to you in recognition is summoning the Angel.
If you, as a mortal, stand in front of 3 supernaturals. Say - A Vampire, A Werewolf and a Mage. The Vampire has Celerity 4, the Werewolf is in Hispo, mixing the power of Crinos and Lupus for an extra burst of speed, and the Mage specialises in Correspondence.
How would you describe them all moving at full speed from one point to another? The Kindred and Garou are travelling faster than you can see, and the Mage might have moved, or maybe it was the world that shifted around her? But to all intents and purposes there's one answer. "Magic".
And just as it's easy to explain relatively simple or common Disciplines or gifts as magic, so it's just as easy to explain magic as a discipline, a trick of the light, or just really praying hard. The only difference between the benefits of True Faith and Spheres is that Spheres are more flexible if you can figure out a way to explain a result within your faith.
Oh, and Paradox doesn't chase the True Faithers around like a snotty child at a wedding while you're in your best clothes! 😁
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u/glasscut 1d ago
There's a world of rich cultural writing about magical traditions in Islam out of the Abbasids, the Golden Age of Bagdad, Persia, Egypt, India, Turkey...
If you're limiting your thinking to purely Quranic writing, that's one thing, but just go to a different mosque and see how the practice is the same but the culture is so different.
I tap into Muslim culture more than Islam itself. But even so - numerology, word magic, talismans, summoning, binding, warding.... all this stuff is already in Islamic practice of not in text explicitly.
Throw in Golden Age Alchemy, necromancy (Egyptian or Babylonian), spirit interactions, architecture magic, tombs, graves, etc, and you have an extremely rich and fertile ground to pull from.
I need muslim mage players so i don't have to explain or spell shit out for people....
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u/EconomyDue2459 1d ago
I mean, there were Muslim alchemists. There were Muslim mystics. King Solomon, generally viewed as a positive figure in Islam, was known to have... Powers.
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u/Cool_Morning_4236 2d ago
We call what Mages do "Magick" but not all of them think that way. In the case of Celestial Chorus, many of their members see their Arts as a blessing from any interpretation of the monotheistic God they belive in, so they see it more like miracles. Also, for many Choristers their Magick and the effects of true faith are indistinguishable (lorewise), so that reinforces the idea of they seeing it more like miracles instead of arcane or occult magic.
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u/Joasvi 2d ago
I had never heard the story of Harut and Marut before, as a D&D player I had assumed Marut was Indic in origin. This was a tremendously informative rabbithole for me.
My question is, would the distinction between IRL natural philosopy and magic perhaps be mirrored in the distinction between sphere based willworking and djinn summoning/binding, as seems to be described in the text? Like could some legalist make the claim of, 'I'm not using the power of angels or devils, I am using a natural expression of God's creation,' sort-of-logic?
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u/Panoceania 2d ago edited 2d ago
Sure. Plenty of them in the Celestial Chorus and of course in Ahl-i-Batin. A few more in the Order of Hermes and Euthanatos. Maybe even a few more in the Dream Speakers (pre- Islam Middle East) and Cult of Ecstasy (historic Muslims were less puritanical than the current versions of Islam).
And it wouldn’t surprise me if there are some smaller crafts out there. There are still Bedouin tribes out there. A few mages probably hang out with them.
Also CC don’t really think they’re doing magic at all. They’re just uncovering the tapestry that god made. That’s why Prime is such a big deal. It’s like drawing back the curtain of reality. “Want to know what’s god REALLY about? Here’s a peak…”.
It’s also why CC are good monster hunters. Not many know they have quintessence in them much less how to hide it. And Vampires, werewolves Jinn and every one else look different with Prime 1. A mage needs some lore to know who’s who’s when they pull back the curtain, but with a little knowledge you can’t fool them.
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u/BigBossPoodle 1d ago
I'll answer the question a little differently:
Members of the celestial chorus do not believe they are casting spells. They believe they are instruments of Gods will. God is giving them the power to do what theyre doing, directly.
Theyre usually wrong about this (God is Not Around(tm) in CofD) but that's how they perceive it.
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u/yggdrasil-942 1d ago
I've always played as if the person's creed or faith doesn't have to have a direct link to the Tradition or Convention that you end up being.
I mean most technicrats are atheistic in theory, but a lot of high level Islamic metaphysics fit well with high level technocratic tenets, order of hermes pillars, celestial Chorus, alhibatin, etcetc etc.
I mean with he exception of the Templar Knights an Islamic character can and should fit any group.
Specially having in account the Indonesian and near countries huge Islamic population with its own lore and folklore.
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u/LordLuscius 1d ago
Dragging irl Abrahamic lore into the WoD, I know a couple of Abrahamic witches. The Muslim is ethnially kurdish and has a lot of folk practice in both her faith and craft, so, she may just be a hypocrite, or maybe there are some creeds near Turkey that round that square. I know for a fact that there are Muslim Mistics too, I've not read anything from them, but that might also make sense of things.
Then of course you have "Goetia" which is of course more Christian and Jewish, and likely either does not translate "pharmica" as sorcery or witchcraft, or does not count as binding spirits in the name of the creator as witchcraft. I know a Christian witch who stands on this principle, but that's not what you asked.
Then there's the "Kabalah" which again, not actually Muslim, but you get my point.
Magecraft in mage, though it functions more like chaos magic or Thelema, the practitioners don't necessarily know or believe this. I kind of think this is on purpose by white wolf, and "explains" why different schools of sorcery work when they seem to contradict one and other.
So, TLDR? There are irl Muslim and other Abrahamic witches/sorcerers and different texts and thinkers that "allow" them to do so... and there are hypocrites.
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u/silly-stupid-slut 1d ago
I kind of think it's on purpose because Thelmics were working at White Wolf when Mage came out. I don't think it's an accident you work towards ascension by slowly having your character realize that Thelma is the only true religion.
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u/StrangeRaven12 1d ago
The medieval Islamic world was actually pretty rife what many people would call magic and occultism. Hell, there was one book, often referred to in English as the Picatrix that was a wildly popular and now kind of infamous grimoire from the Muslim world. Also, if you go to places like Indonesia and Malaysia, people still mingle Islam with all manner of local animist beliefs as well as esoteric practices from Hinduism and Buddhism. Similar things happen with certain predominantly Muslim cultures in parts of Africa. It is worth noting that, despite being the very definition of what most would call magic/the occult, the people practicing these arts in many cases throughout history would deny that it is "magic" but some other kind of spiritual discipline.
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u/Hey_DnD_its_me 1d ago
So I might be off base here because I'm much more familiar with Mage the Awakening, but I want to take a different angle than the other comments here I've read.
Let's say until the day you awaken you're Muslim, maybe not necessarily the strictest adherent but still it is core to your beliefs and how you see the world. Then you Awaken, you learn things about the nature of reality that aren't at all compatible with what you already believed, but that is still a part of you and your identity.
When this conflict occurs I simply don't think it's in human nature to discard ones existing identity or worldview, not just someone who is nominally religious but for someone who holds it core to their identity. What's much more likely to occur is Syncretism, both aspects bend to meet in the middle.
I know next to nothing about the Celestial Chorus(or any other paradigm) but I fully believe that if we could step inside the fiction and read the exact details of their tradition, we'd find plenty of things that from the perspective of unawakened Islam are entirely heretical beliefs but that they've found ways (however strained or tenuous) of excusing.
TL;DR
Syncretism happens, humans will jump through a lot of mental hoops to make everything line up.
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u/BoozeAccountant 11h ago
I think what you're asking is why would an observant Muslim have any truck with "magic" in any form and the answer to that is simply that while we as players can see the system for what it is, and have an ominescient view showing that all willwork comes from the same source the in world people doing the workings are very much caught up in the fact that their own personal beleif fuels the practice of magic and how they understand it colors their ability to work it.
So a non-observant Muslim is not going to see the same kind of practice as an observant one. The Celestial Chorus is simply a faction of mages that think their ability to impact reality comes from their faith in the one. Since Islam is a monotheistic religion then it can fall under the celestial chorus much the same as any other abrahamic faith.
I'm not conversant enough with the teachings of islam to say which other traditions would fit well in an observant Muslim worldview but with some exceptions it's likely possible for any of them to work inside that practice.
For example the Society of Ether has very little to do with spiritual practice at all but given that a lot of early advancements in astronomy, math, chemistry, agriculture and textiles came from the middle east it's entirely possible for there to be muslim natural philosophers doing progressive steampunk style science while still being observant. In this case the Faith doesn't really add or subtract from the working it's simply another facet of the character.
Suifism includes ecstatic practice so depending on what branch of islam you're working with the cult of ecstacy would be a possible choice. If you're into more modern Islamic options there's a lot to be said for there being a number of Islamic Syndicate members, there are a number of countries in the region with staggering oil wealth and several of them are strongly religious. They don't seem to have any trouble combining the two for mundane reasons so there's likely no reason you couldn't also use hypereconomics in the same way.
The Al-i-batin and Tafftani are both traditions or crafts that come from the middle east. I think both actually pre-date the existence of Islam but given their location and need to recruit new members they both likely have a strong core of Muslim membership. I don't recall anything in either of the crafts that specifically leans on islamic practice and teaching but they're also likely canditates for a muslim character provided your ST lets you play one. The Taftani are kind of brutal as they don't care about paradox and tend to go out in a blaze of glory when they go.
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u/DravenDarkwood 4h ago
What is magic to one person is miracle working to another. They believe they channel the powers of the one through themselves and allow its will to be done through them (obviously some differences apply). They often don't consider what they do 'magic'. Magic is more what the order of Hermes, the verbena, and the rest do. Consider this as well, during the golden age, maths and sciences were huge as they were to better understand the gifts of Allah. Some of them became part of the order of reason. While they still are altering reality when u get down to it, is it through reason and the sciences, not 'magic'. So like everything in mage, perspective and beliefs is kinda everything. You know it is actually reality manipulation because u are reading the game, they don't subscribe to that philosophy because it isn't a game, it is their reality
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u/Vyctorill 2d ago
Most of them just see it as Miracles.
However, really knowledgeable ones will be fine with Magic because they learned about how God left humanity behind long ago.
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u/silly-stupid-slut 1d ago
The only in universe source for that is a bunch of literal demons.
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u/Vyctorill 1d ago
As well as some of the more savvy Imbued, probably a mage or two, old Spirits, the Lady of Fate, probably Oblivion if it bothered to answer any questions, and the technocratic higher ups that retconned the biblical timeline into a different origin.
Demons, ironically, actually have very little knowledge of what is going on due to being locked in a box for a long time.
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u/IfiGabor 2d ago
The funny thing in the Lost Path book is...the Al-i-Batin made Islam by accident 😆
They idea of unity, they found Mohammed not as aweakened but feel that he is a greate destiny...they filled his mind with the Idea of Unity....and then...it goes sideways.
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u/silly-stupid-slut 1d ago
Islamic mages practice Sufism, think of themselves as Wali, and attribute their abilities to barakah. Mages (the characters) often consider their own magic to both not be theirs, and to be not magic.
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u/VoicelessPassenger 2d ago edited 1d ago
In much the same way that Christianity and other religions do.
The thing with Mage is that the ‘magic’ that Mages wield is only magic in the loosest sense of the word: paradigms can be anything from conventional magic to faith or even science, you just need to have belief in something to be able alter reality with it.
The Mages of the Celestial Chorus don’t see it as ‘magic’, they see it as miracles, gifts granted by the Divine rather than something created by themselves and themselves alone. In their mind they’re not just pulling fireballs out of their ass because they manipulated subatomic particles or whatever, God is granting them that power with the expectation that they use it as He deigns them to do.
I know Islam is usually stricter about this kind of stuff but depending on the exact sect and which way they lean on certain things it’s not hard for a Muslim to justify using faith in that way. It’s not like they’re declaring themselves Prophets or anything, anything and everything they do with that ‘magic’ is through God and the gifts He willingly granted them.
I could go on about how even the biggest and most sweeping religions merely assimilate and adapt, not supplant, pre-existing beliefs and traditions but this comment is already long enough.