When KD, who some people think is the best pure scorer ever to play the game, gets completely ignored on a fast break where he is the ball handler in the NBA Finals because the other team is so afraid of Steph they sent multiple people to guard him it tells me all I need to know about who the best offensive player on the team is.
People with an agenda which is a lot of people. Gravity is hard to quantify so it's something people heavily debate. Especially since so many people are just box score watchers that don't see how many open dunks/layups Steph creates but doesn't get stats for.
This sub has em all the time, just gotta go in one of those anti-Steph threads. Or the pro-KD ones. Shit, you could prob find a couple in here if you rlly went looking
Curry's one of the few players where from on-off stats you can quantify how dramatically he improves the rest of the team... without the ball in his hands.
That's the insane part--there have been plenty of guys in NBA history who can improve their teammates by passing. But passing requires you to have the ball in your hands, and there's only 1 ball. A player that improves other players only when they have the ball are limited in that way.
The thing with Curry is that he nonchalantly walks along the baseline, someone sets an off-ball screen as he scoots toward the 3 point line and then the defense goes ballistic and total chaos as the 3, some times 4 players scramble to try to contain Curry... and he doesn't even have the ball.
Like there was a play in the Olympics where Steph took ball screen, a bunch of players from the opposing team converged on steph... and Lebron casually flicked the ball to Kevin Durant who was standing alone under the basket, and he dunked.
Like Kevin F'ing Durant is not a guy you generally forget exists when he cuts to the basket, but Steph draws complete panic from opposing teams when they think he might get an open 3.
It doesn’t help that the people who repeat it constantly, seem to ignore it for every single other player who’s a really good shooter and can move off the ball
Or even players like Shaq, Embiid etc dominant scoring big men who can draw two very easily
Jordan’s gravity was insane, Prime LeBron when he was with the Cavs/Heat… The thing is Steph’s gravity is different from all those players because all of their gravity drew player to the paint which leaves hole in the perimeter, Steph is the only player of those named that consistently draws a double behind the 3 point line, which turns the whole geometry of the game upside down and leaves guys wide open under the basket with regularity.
One of the reasons he used to play such heavy minutes.
Yes he's an athletic freak who used to be able to handle those minutes, but also, just placing him in the corner had a huge impact on how defences would react.
He'd get his rest on the court. Just the threat of him cutting or getting involved in the possession was enough to create room for other guys to have their turn running the offence.
Dame and Trae Young are statistically much better than Steph from 35+ feet throughout their careers (you can verify that) but they get literally none of the gravity talk lol the double standard is comical at this point
Surely how far you can shoot is also a factor lol give me a break, you literally talked about how he gets guarded “behind the 3 point line.” Also Dame is statistically better at iso scoring and yet that’s one of your points lol.
Those stats can be manipulated quite easily. First of all does it include full court heaves? Because Steph goes out of his way to attempt those shots at the buzzer while other players avoid it because it messes with their stats, secondly, you have to look at volume. A guy who shoots 40% on 50 attempts from 35+ is not as dangerous as a guy who shoot 38% on 100 attempts.
I just doesn’t see opposing teams blitzing Dame and Tre with two guys once he passes half court unless it’s an end of game situation, but you have Ty Lue on the record saying he blitzed Steph in the finals because he’d have rather deal with KEVIN FREAKING DURANT instead of Curry.
I haven't seen that on this sub. I have seen Shaq's gravity constantly being used as a discussion point for Kobe and the way he played early in his career.
Maybe r/nbatalk but if you are actively discussing there, you are engaging with a bunch of idiots.
seem to ignore it for every single other player who’s a really good shooter and can move off the ball
No one is making that argument. The argument is actually that Curry does it better than anyone in the history of the league. The evidence is his teammates shooting efficiency spiking when he is on the court more than any player ever. Why? Because curry is the best cutter, screener and mover without the ball ever. If you don’t have a player attached to his hip he’ll get open and burn you from wherever.
The best example of Curry’s playmaking is Kevin Durant. KD scored as well as james harden did in the postseason in OKC. In OKC he scored 28.8 points a game on 57.5 ts%. KD in golden state? 29.6 points a game on 64.2 ts%. The Curry effect.
KD went from a team with one of the best playmaker to the team with the best playmaker. No really a mystery why he never saw a double team nor why he hasn’t won anything outside of the warriors.
Or even players like Shaq, Embiid etc dominant scoring big men who can draw two very easily
Seems like you have never watched the warriors or you just have a poor understanding of what is happening here. The fact that you’re including two players who are ball dominant is pretty embarrassing. No shit Shaq and Giannis draw the entire team when they’re in the paint. That’s when they have the ball. Curry doesn’t even need the ball which is the entire point.
You're not wrong, but I feel like that kind of diminishes the fact that that whole warriors team was completely bonkers. Klay is probably the second best shooter of the modern era, and while Draymond isn't a scoring threat on his own, he's still one of the better screeners in the game. By my count, all but 3 of the shots Steph made in this video came off Draymond picks. Steph is probably one of the biggest factors, but there are a lot of reasons KD was playing his most efficient ball in those years.
Durant went to the finals in 2012 scoring 28 on +12 rTS% before anybody knew who Steph Curry was
Oh ya, the same postseason where the thunder were better when KD sat, had a shit ton of turnovers (the KD special) on a diminished tertiary creation role? That run?
When you’re only good at one thing, like scoring, and bad at everything else related to helping your team win, you end up losing.
Gotta love the KD stans who have to frame everything surrounding KD via scoring. Can’t mention anything else. Wonder why…..
Durant played 41.9 minutes per game and started every game of that post season too (20 games)
An NBA basketball game is 48 minutes lol. That means your sample size is roughly 120 minutes
You really thought that low a sample is meaningful in any way? Players can go 40 plus games being negatives just based on hot shooting while they’re on the bench. Check Lebron this year, or plenty of other players who can post outlier plus minus stats (eg Lebron a negative in the NBA finals)
Your sample was less than 3 fucking games LMAO
On a diminished tertiary creation role
The same Durant who lead a 57 win pace as the primary playmaker without Westbrook for half the year in 2014, carrying lineups of Jackson/Sefolosha/Ibaka/Perkins in a brutal Western Conference? And beat peak Lebron to MVP?
57 wins is more than any Jokic led team has ever gotten. So much for playmaking, when scoring go brr.
Durant is a player who’s aided by playmaking, especially now he’s less mobile, but at his peak he never needed it.
Yes being one of the greatest scorers ever and a solid plus on defense has always made you a great player in any era of NBA basketball. That essentially makes Durant a 7 foot version of Kobe Bryant.
BB reference. Most all time greats, especially those integral to their teams offense, see their team pretty much crater when they’re not on the court. Harden and Russ destroy KD in on/off impact that entire run. Wonder why that is? It’s because they can create for the teammates. KD still hasn’t shown he can do that.
An NBA basketball game is 48 minutes lol. That means your sample size is roughly 120 minutes
What’s your point here? KD logging a shit ton of minutes doesn’t mean much when the offense isn’t at the very least worse without him.
You really thought that low a sample is meaningful in any way? Players can go 40 plus games being negatives just based on hot shooting while they’re on the bench.
When you’re talking about the top 20 players of all time, we see a trend over a decade of their impact especially in the postseason. KD gets dwarfed obviously by curry and LeBron. But even players like CP3/harden/Russ/kawhi etc have him beat out.
I guess a decade isn’t enough sample size
2012 the thunder are better with KD on the bench
2013-2016 we see a drop off but those years KD got outplayed by his mvp teammate in Westbrook and this is evidenced by how well the team’s WOWY. I guess 13/14/16 are too small a sample again.
Check Lebron this year, or plenty of other players who can post outlier plus minus stats
Ya I mean LeBron is 40. When we go to a holistic metric that doesn’t include the box score, KD again gets dwarfed by his contemporaries. He’s simply not that impactful because he is a poor poor playmaker.
The same Durant who lead a 57 win pace as the primary playmaker without Westbrook for half the year in 2014, carrying lineups of Jackson/Sefolosha/Ibaka/Perkins in a brutal Western Conference?
KD stans love to bring up 2014 as some crowning achievement for him but always fail to look at the postseason. KD actually did great in the regular season but the 2014 post season perfectly encapsulates him as a player performer when he’s not on a 73 win team. 2016 he played awful but 2014 is his playoff choking peak.
Almost losing first round to a seventh seed after winning MVP? Check
Averaging a shit ton of turnovers and not reliably be able to handle extra defensive coverage? Check
Scoring efficiency cratering to 57% from 63.5%? Check
Getting handily outplayed by his teammate in Westbrook? Check.
57 wins is more than any Jokic led team has ever gotten. So much for playmaking, when scoring go brr.
His scoring helped them so much in 2014 after a 57 win season that they didn’t even make the finals. If KD actually was the best player on the 2014 and 2016 teams they would have made the finals. But he was turning the ball over a fuck ton instead.
Imaging comparing Jokic to a guy who got outplayed by Westbrook in b2b postseasons lol
Durant is a player who’s aided by playmaking, especially now he’s less mobile, but at his peak he never needed it.
Ya he never needed it which is why he has won so much outside of the team that deliberately masked his ball handling and playmaking “skills”.
(Don’t look at 2022 when KD lost his hof playmaker in harden against the Celtics)
Kerr was a genius making sure he had as much responsibility as klay thompson in that regard. Wonder why he hasn’t won anything since? Because the dude becomes a turnover machine anytime he has any role on his teams offense more than just scoring.
Hell we can just look at any series where curry was hurt and watch KD become a walking turnover. The 2019 clippers series comes to mind. Against a bottom ten defense KD had a game with literally more turnovers than shot attempts. You could see Kerr about to have a stroke any time KD brought the ball up.
But I’m sure this is all just a coincidence to you
Yes being one of the greatest scorers ever and a solid plus on defense has always made you a great player in any era of NBA basketball. That essentially makes Durant a 7 foot version of Kobe Bryant
One of the greatest scorers ever who couldn’t leverage that scoring and translate it to winning until he was on a 73 win team where he saw single coverage the entire time he was there. Hope you’re saying harden is one of the greatest scorers ever as well (same scoring as KD with much more offensive responsibilities to boot). But I have a feeling you think KD is much better than harden when they have the same resume outside of winning on a 73 win team.
Bryant at least elevated his teammates by above average playmaking. KD was too busy throwing the ball outta bounds or to his opponents instead.
Yes all stars players have gravity, but what makes Steph different is where the gravity is. Pulling 2 guys out 30 feet is a lot more valuable than guys getting doubled 15 ft away where it's a lot easier for defenders to recover.
They were double teaming steph to give up open layups for KD. It was bizarre to watch defenses breakdown and decide to double steph when they weren't sure.
Or maybe, just maybe KD in his prime is one of the greatest scorers ever, and on a stacked team he cooked the cavs? Bro was making deep 3s to ice those games with LeBron in his face. Fucking gravity 😂
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u/Proof-Umpire-7718 Lakers 2d ago
Steph’s gravity was a huge reason for Kd’s success in the finals he played in with the Warriors.