r/news • u/DuvalEaton • Oct 15 '14

Title Not From Article Another healthcare worker tests positive for Ebola in Dallas

http://www.wfla.com/story/26789184/second-texas-health-care-worker-tests-positive-for-ebola
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543

u/aywwts4 Oct 15 '14

Jesus, it takes Amazon less than a day to ship me toilet paper for free. But you are telling me we don't have a repository of basic outbreak protective gear and emergency supplies on standby located around the country?

... How unprepared for an outbreak are we?

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

[deleted]

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u/aywwts4 Oct 15 '14

There are occasional slickdeals where you can stack some coupons and subscribe and save stuff where they crunch the math and it turns out pretty good, but largely it's the convenience, ordering more TP while on the toilet and knowing it will show up before the last roll is out.

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u/ButterflyAttack Oct 15 '14

Or you could just use the curtains and save money. . .

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u/pfc_bgd Oct 15 '14

Ah yes, that moment when the mind goes "fuck, i'm running out of TP, and I'm sure I'll forget to get more next time I go to the store...fortunately, there are some paper towels around to save my future self".

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u/dposton70 Oct 15 '14

And fortunately Amazon also sells plungers for when your future self blocks the toilet up with paper towels.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

I tried to subscribe for all standard household items through Amazon, but they'd run out of stock and I wouldn't know until it's too late. It became more of a hassle.

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u/ofimmsl Oct 16 '14

Well what if you have ebola and have to spend a lot of time on the toilet? Can amazon fill this large order for toilet paper in a timely fashion at a reasonable price? I'm asking for a friend.

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u/RelotZealot Oct 15 '14

Asking the important questions here

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u/Adorable_Octopus Oct 16 '14

It is, if we're never going to go outside again.

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u/TheBakersSon Oct 15 '14

I'm running my own direct to home used toilet paper delivery service that beats the supermarket prices by 50%. Message me for more info!

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u/baba_ganoush_ Oct 15 '14

You should try google shopping express if its available in your area. I think they still have some kind of free trial.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

Costco has the best deal I have found on toilet paper.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

I don't know about toilet paper but Amazon Mom + subscribe & save = way cheaper than super market for diapers, and moderately cheaper than Sam's club.

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u/[deleted] Oct 16 '14

Much cheaper.

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u/arcticfunky Oct 15 '14

Asking the important questions...

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

Firefighter here:

We have a special rig with all sorts of response gear in it. Depending on what is needed, some of the clothing alone runs in the thousands, and some of it can only be used once. On top of that, some of it has a shelf life. Do they stockpile for just bloodborne pathogens? What about a potential airborne outbreak?

Now, why this isn't accounted for with a rapid response protocol to get the appropriate gear acquired on the same day from stockpiles in the town, and then resupplied overnight is beyond me. God knows Dallas FD most certainly has a hazmat truck with gear just sitting there.

tl;dr: The gear required is incredibly expensive, has a shelf life, and lots of different gear is needed for different infections.

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u/yillian Oct 15 '14

Yup. $3,500 for Class A SCBA Double Layer suit that's appropriately treated for biological contaminant protection.

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u/[deleted] Oct 16 '14

Yup, and it's good for precisely one tank of air; which is between 30-60 minutes if you've practiced a lot and become REALLY good at conserving air.

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u/yillian Oct 16 '14

I wonder if you can use a rebreather with hazmat suits.

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u/[deleted] Oct 16 '14 edited Oct 16 '14

For some, yes. But only those that aren't air tight. I'm not a Hazmat tech; I just took the courses required in academy. That said, I believe you're referring to a level B suit (which would work in this case), but again: one time use, and cost ~1200.00 a pop iirc.

All of this said, it appears from the glut of information that this level of protection isn't really needed. They need level B/C stuff perhaps. Still, the point stands. it's really expensive, different suits are used for different things, it all has a shelf life, and keeping it on hand in the hospitals would be unreasonably expensive.

If they were able to phone up DFD, roll the HAZMAT truck, get the stuff they need to care for a patient? Well then, they could in theory restock DFD, care for the patient, and have a small hole in response based on the amount of gear DFD has, and is willing to give up and stay response ready.

It'd be better than nothing, and a bit more financially and practically viable than being at DEFCON 1 all the time.

1

u/browncoww Oct 15 '14

In other words everyone's fucked.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

I giggled a little, but I don't think so.

We Americans have a tremendous ability to over respond to just about every event once someone fucks up.

That over-response in this case? I think it's a good thing.

I was more concerned when people weren't vaccinating than I am with Ebola.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 16 '14

Get the fuck outa here

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u/fullofbones Oct 15 '14

Very. Between cost cutbacks, long shifts, insufficient preparation, and any number of other contributing factors, we're only slightly less fucked than Liberia.

Think about it. How many people go to work sick? Isn't flu season coming soon? Aren't the symptoms extremely similar to Ebola? How will hospitals even tell the difference? Even if they did, they don't have the staff, gear, or apparently the environment necessary to contain it.

So... yeah. Not prepared at all, despite the "hurr, you have to roll around in Ebola diarrhea to get it" bravado.

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u/Frensel Oct 15 '14

No, we are not only "slightly" less fucked than Liberia. Our healthcare system is far, far better than theirs, as is our infrastructure.

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u/iki_balam Oct 15 '14

you forget our greatest weakness, the human factor of complacency

0

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

Cool. So you end up with hundreds of thousands of dollars in bills. But you'll get to live.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

[deleted]

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u/brokenearth02 Oct 15 '14

Having insurance does not prevent massive bills by stretch of imagination.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

And yet people are getting it, and at an alarming rate. And if it jumps to the civilian population, do you really think our "great" infrastructure will do anything? We can't protect our doctors, why do you think we can protect the entire nation?

2

u/AbanoMex Oct 15 '14

uhm, lets call Will Smith

4

u/mtrain123 Oct 15 '14

There are two cases currently. I wouldn't call that an alarming rate.

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u/brokenearth02 Oct 15 '14

Started with just one person in W Africa.

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u/keepyacoolbro Oct 15 '14

But we can give our police tanks and machine guns. Crazy ass nation we have.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14 edited Jan 29 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

A fact that, when uttered by a politician, is career suicide.

Ike only brought it up when he was on his way out anyway.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

Yep, not to mention nobody wants to be the guy that got a General Dynamics or Lockheed factory in their town shut down.

There's a reason that despite their protestations, the Army ended up buying a bunch of new Abrams tanks.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

Because republicans overzealously support the military and most democrats want to buy jobs with government funding.

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u/willienelsonmandela Oct 15 '14

I wish it was all hand-me-downs. At least that would mean we're reusing shit. We're straight up making so many tanks that the military doesn't even want them.

1

u/misterpickles69 Oct 15 '14

How do you think we'll be containing ebola once it starts getting out of hand?

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

There's a realistic chance we could end up with a couple hundred cases, but an actual outbreak is exceedingly unlikely here. Fortunately there are two vaccines that look extremely promising that should be ready in 2 months. At least one of them might be effective even after you're infected.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

Think of food service workers. Cooks, food runners, waiters, etc. Most don't have insurance to get a diagnosis for ebola. Also, most don't have vacation or sick leave so they will work while sick and infect many patrons before they realize they have ebola.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14 edited Oct 16 '14

As a former poor uninsured person let me let you in on a secret. Being uninsured means you don't get preventative care at regular doctors office. It doesn't mean you don't go to the ER when you start having violent bloody diaherrea. People just don't pay their bills after they've gotten emergency care. All that happens is you get a lot of letters in the mail asking you to pay and a hit to your credit rating.

The bigger problem is more middle class people with families without insurance. Many of those people care about their credit rating. The truly poor people already have fucked credit ratings or just don't care since they'll never be able to afford a house anyway. Even with the middle class uninsured they're going to the ER when they get crazy ebola sick.

Getting insanely high ER bills doesn't mean you won't be able to eat or have a roof over your head. It just means possibly messed up credit rating. They don't throw you in jail over medical debt.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

Those cutbacks were for the real threat; terrorists.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

[deleted]

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u/Dusty_Old_Bones Oct 15 '14

I got an Art History degree too.

-5

u/maxxusflamus Oct 15 '14

this isn't an outbreak. This was a risk for sure- but not an outbreak.

More people have been dumped by taylor swift than contracted ebola in America.

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u/aywwts4 Oct 15 '14

That has to be the stupidest soundbyte I have ever heard.

It's an infectious disease, it spreads and infects. And the more it spreads the more it spreads. People dumped by Taylor swift cannot dump 2 more nurses, and dump those nurses's families and the patients they also treated, and dump the hospital's tube delivery system.

But A+ for flippancy.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

It's from /r/showerthoughts not a serious argument. It also doesn't need to be. Ebola CANNOT spread the way it has in Africa in the u.s. A few cases are expected but this is not an epidemic and unless the epidemic reaches South America and spreads into Mexico the average person is as safe as ever.

Source:spoke with a former cdc researcher called back to analyze the problem. Which means nothing because this is reddit and everyone mistrusts anyone who makes disagrees with them.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

Did they say no one would get it? No. They said it won't spread like it did there and so far they are right.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

Ebola CANNOT spread the way it has in Africa in the u.s.

It already is.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

No it's not. The speed of its spread in the U.S. will never reach the same level of Africa. We would have to lose our entire medical infrastructure and start from nothing for it to get out of control that badly.

The fear mongering on reddit is just fucking retarded.

1

u/maxxusflamus Oct 15 '14

reddit gets boners on thinking edumacated people are wrong.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

It's so irritating to see people who are probably intelligent people in area X ignoring advice given by expert in area Y. That is not a good sign for any modern democracy where one person cannot rely on their knowledge alone to make good decisions due to the depth of many issues.

This whole "trust only people who already agree with me" bullshit is not a sign of a rational person and makes me concerned that the Internet is just fueling confirmation bias in a large portion of users. That doesn't bode well for our future.

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u/maxxusflamus Oct 15 '14

really...it's infected 10,000 people?

Ebola spreads via the same infection vector but I guarantee more people died in car crashes yesterday than have been infected with ebola in the US.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

As was the case in Liberia until it wasn't.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

I agree that it might not spread like it did/does in Africa, but it has kind of started out like it did there with a case by case basis, only thing we can do is wash are hands and stay clean, unfortunately for me I work in a cellphone store.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

Another stupid anecdotal analogy not relating to infectious disease? Please stop.

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u/ButterflyAttack Oct 15 '14

Typical. It was only the other week that they were telling us there was no danger to the western world because we're all so prepared. . .

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u/dontdrinktheT Oct 15 '14

Hospitals are one of the most regulated industries. I'd just buy ppe on the market.

Hospitals have to go through specific suppliers who charge a fortune.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

I can't wait for most libertarians to get ebola and figure out why a centralized free hospital system is a must for any civilized country.

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u/itsgavinc Oct 15 '14

Wherein by "free" you mean that those that have jobs get to pay for it. Just because there is no cost to you doesn't mean it is free. Nothing is free. Would you work every day for free?

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

[deleted]

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u/SageofVictor Oct 15 '14

I'd like to point you to most students in non-business related majors. At least in my area. i.e: Whos going to pay for it? "The government" where do they get their money?? "they print it.... why do they need money? they'e the government"

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u/dontdrinktheT Oct 15 '14

I think it should be specified that it isn't free then. Hearing euros talk about free health care but ignoring the cost it causes them on food, transportation, and taxes is misleading.

Americans don't talk about their nearly free food when it costs them 5 percent of their income.

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u/itsgavinc Oct 15 '14

The vast majority of my own patients believe that "free" healthcare is indeed free. I know this because I have the conversation with them 10+ times every day (basically anytime somebody complains about their bill).

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

Isn't that a good reason to get the flu shot then? I'm normally not one to get a flu shot, but I'm seriously considering getting one.

1

u/chrisms150 Oct 15 '14

You should get one regardless; but keep in mind the flu shot does not guarantee you will not get the flu. So don't panic if you do.

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u/NecroDaddy Oct 15 '14

You should be getting a flu shot...period.

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u/BombaFett Oct 15 '14

Time to buy stock in everything Ebola prevention related.

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u/lol4liphe Oct 15 '14

Stop propagating fear. We are significantly more prepared.

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u/CaptainMoltar Oct 15 '14

But...if we give more money for healthcare/prevention programs, that would make us socialist, right?

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

TWO people out of a hundred Duncan came into contact with have been diagnosed. Stopped fucking panicking.

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u/phpdevster Oct 15 '14

Have been DIAGNOSED. That doesn't mean many more aren't infected.

And given how incorrectly the situation was handled in the first place, how many more people have been cleared and left to return home, even though they are actually infected? That's what they did to the source patient....

So, sorry, stop treating this gun like it's not loaded. The lives of 10's of millions of people is not something you fuck around with.

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u/fullofbones Oct 15 '14

In light of recent news, it seems the Dallas fuckup just keeps getting worse. Wonderful.

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u/[deleted] Oct 16 '14

Whether you or I treat it like anything is immaterial. Neither you nor I have /any/ affect, currently, on the outcome of the current problem.

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u/fullofbones Oct 15 '14

Make that three. Oh, and this one had a slight fever before she boarded the flight and potentially spread it to everyone she encountered at the airport and in the plane.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 16 '14

It's sad that Shep Smith of Fox News has to be the voice of reason:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2KBfynW09I

0

u/mardish Oct 15 '14

There wouldn't be much difference between Ebola and flu symptoms for the first couple of days. In about half of cases there would be an accompanying rash which might help distinguish Ebola from the flu. This is why you can't blame the hospital for turning Duncan away initially; we don't test for influenza, it's diagnosed based on symptoms. Modern health care is a statistics game: a patient presents with a set of symptoms and it is most likely those symptoms are the result of common condition #1 and not rare condition #2931. Take some amoxicillin and ibuprofen and call me if you start to have x, y or z (because this greatly increases the likelihood that you actually have condition #2931).

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u/Legobegobego Oct 15 '14 edited Oct 15 '14

Actually we do test for influenza. It's a simple quick test, when I've been tested for it, they just used a nose swab and in a minute or two were able to tell me if I had the flu or no.

0

u/PR1NC3 Oct 15 '14

It cost money to be prepared and no one likes to spend money. The same thing happens with the military. Everyone thinks we spend too much money in the DoD, but when something crazy happens everyone will be completely baffled as to why we can't respond quickly and effectively.

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u/Shrekmightyogrelord Oct 15 '14

The difference, of course, being that we actually do spend way too much money on the military (about 40% of the world's total military spending), and that's why we don't have the money for basic medical things like this.

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u/biorhyme Oct 15 '14

Dont forget affirmative action. Seriously, an enterprise that doesn't value the most skilled and effective in its hiring probably won't make the cut when shit hits the fan.

just saying...

2

u/ZTFS Oct 15 '14

We do. It's called the strategic national stockpile. It's not implicated here because the hospital, county, and state had sufficient materiel to enable healthcare workers to operate safely, even if it wasn't exactly the CDC recommended kit. Every hospital has, on hand, as part of normal operations, sufficient PPE for a case. Using them together, properly, as part of a complete infection control protocol, however, isn't something you just pull out of a box.

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u/poobly Oct 15 '14

Profit centric medicine does that.

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u/flat5 Oct 15 '14 edited Oct 15 '14

Why are people surprised? It doesn't make economic sense to spend money on something so unlikely. People seem to forget that hospitals in the US are administered by business people and use the logic of economics to make decisions about how to spend money. Of course our hospitals have spent nothing on Ebola preparedness. It doesn't make business sense.

It isn't an oversight. It's by design.

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u/muj561 Oct 15 '14

We are really really unprepared. Source: my fucking totally unprepared hospital.

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u/Youknowjenelle Oct 15 '14

CDC didn't spring for Prime.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

You don't want to know

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

Unless you're a health care worker, the chances of getting exposed seem exceptionally low.

1

u/invaluableimp Oct 15 '14

How do you get free toilet paper from Amazon?

1

u/Chouonsoku Oct 15 '14

Unless it's an outbreak of citizens with guns we're not what you would call "prepared".

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u/DFWPunk Oct 15 '14

We do. It's called Amazon Prime.

1

u/cat_dev_null Oct 15 '14

Defective by design?

slinks off wearing aluminium bonnet

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u/misterpickles69 Oct 15 '14

On a scale from "zero" to "fucked" we're at "pretty boned".

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

The government isn't as efficient as Amazon. It would cost them literally Billions of dollars to implement a warehousing system like this, because every person employed in that system would have to be paid inflated Government pensions, overtime, etc. On top of that, every piece of physical infrastructure would be built by some cronies of one party or the other, and they'd do a shoddy and/or expensive job.

Just look at the healthcare.gov website. Everyone in Silicon Valley was stunned by how much money the government spent on it. Even elite developers for hire that are considered "overpriced" by Valley standards, like Pivotal Labs, said they could have made the website for like 5-10% of the cost, with a huge margin for fucking up built in.

We probably couldn't afford it without making some painful cuts somewhere else.

1

u/TheTigerMaster Oct 15 '14

Does it really take less than a day? I think I now know what I'll be doing next time I'm taking a shit on the toilet with no toilet paper.

1

u/phillymjs Oct 15 '14

we don't have a repository of basic outbreak protective gear

We did, but it was all used up last year by people dressing up as Walter White for Halloween.

1

u/MingDynasty40 Oct 15 '14

They could have went to a rednecks place and had the necessary gear in 20 minutes. Them rednecks are prepped ever since Obama came into office

1

u/kalitarios Oct 15 '14

On a related note; when I went for my gun permit, I had to get finger printed. Our town is pretty affluent. Police driving SUV's and all that, all the latest gear, etc.

They had to do the old "Ink Pad & Roll" style fingerprint, where the cop nearly breaks off your hand trying to roll your prints on a piece of card stock.

This is then mailed (snail mailed) to Hartford, CT, where it is then scanned in by a human to the system. Naturally my first two times, it was rejected because one of the prints were "blurry" according to the scanning software.

So now I go back to the Police station, and we go in the back, where the jail is. They have a digital finger print reader, that (if I was a combative criminal) they could put me in a hold and put my hand on the scanner for less than 5 seconds and get a full print read. Huh. But wait, there's more...

The scan is then PRINTED OUT from an old HP LaserJet 4050, MAILED (snail mailed) to a human in Hartford, who then scans it BACK INTO THE SYSTEM. Not emailed digitally. Scanned from a crappy print.

Again, this comes back rejected, as my right hand came back distorted (gee, I wonder why).

So back to the Police station again, and we try again with the scanner and printer, this time it worked.

And the kicker, the cop on the way out tells me this:

If you really were a criminal, we could slap your hand on the scanner, and use the app to instantly upload your prints to Hartford criminal database, where you would be booked with the state within 10 minutes.

I asked him why the long process then... and his reply was "no one wants to be responsible for upgrading the process." - so the mid 90's snail mail process remains... unless you are caught shop lifting and ornery.

1

u/PoppDog Oct 15 '14

Less than a day? Where do you live next door to the warehouse? Calling bs on same day toilet paper delivery.

1

u/Dramatic_Explosion Oct 15 '14

You have to look closely, but you answer your own question:

takes Amazon less than a day to ship me toilet paper for free.

You bought something from them, resulting in profits for the company.

repository of basic outbreak protective gear and emergency supplies

These cost a business money, and not having them actually saves them money (if a nurse on the job 10 years dies, they can hire a new nurse at a lower wage).

Until you can show management how it's good for the company, don't expect it to happen. If this is shocking to you, I recommend you read this thread.

1

u/Accujack Oct 15 '14

How unprepared for an outbreak are we?

Depends on what you define as "prepared". Certain agencies and groups have the right gear, but it's really only meant for a short term use. As mentioned elsewhere it's too expensive to keep around "just in case", since it has a shelf life and the secondary systems (air supplies etc) are expensive to maintain.

I'd guess at the moment that almost every hospital that gets an Ebola patient from anywhere will have to risk secondary infections for 12-24 hours until proper equipment can arrive for the patient to be treated.

Sucks, but basically health care workers have to decide whether they take a significant risk to their lives by treating the patient who may have the disease before they have the right gear to do it.

Proper decontamination training will help some. There are stories of people who "should" have gotten Ebola in past outbreaks (due to lack of proper protections) not getting it because they either got really lucky or they just followed decontamination protocol like their life depended on it.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

You can Amazon prime some hazmat suits gas masks and machetes

1

u/yepthatguy2 Oct 15 '14

Toilet paper is something that's used every day by almost every person in the western world. Repositories of ebola outbreak protective gear is something that's used rarely, if ever.

Tell me, at your job, do you never have things that you all know you should do 'someday' but that always seem to get delayed due to less important but more urgent things?

1

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

They should've ordered the bio safety gear from Amazon prime.

1

u/Purpledrank Oct 16 '14

Capitalism. Consumerism being above all else.

0

u/jmlinden7 Oct 15 '14

Amazon doesn't have to stockpile enough medical equipment for a nationwide crisis, just a few dozen at a time to meet demand for the next week/month until their next order from the manufacturer comes in.

Stockpiling equipment is incredibly inefficient from a business standpoint - it's inventory that takes up space and isn't making you money.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '14

[deleted]

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u/BananaRepublican73 Oct 15 '14

Because nobody in the country can be expected to do their job properly unless the President is on the phone with them personally, managing at them? Nobody gave a fuck when Mr. Bush would be off on his ranch clearing brush while American soldiers were dying in Iraq. It's called delegation. What exactly do you think he should be doing in this situation, besides asking the CDC and Texas Health Department for status reports and telling them to "fix the problem now!" ?