Do you guys think Jeffrey Epstein was charming? I mean I don't know anything about him other than the factual reports and court docs. But I feel like those always leave out some reality of the situation. About what a person is actually like when you're with them. I can't imagine money had everything to do with pulling so many people into his orbit (whether friends or victims). He must've been extremely charismatic to do what he did, with as many people as knew, from so many walks of life for so long.
Groomers usually are. Then the people around them who get a funny feeling or have doubt or suspect something will feel out of place for speaking up because the abuser is so well liked.
You put that so perfectly because this is exactly what happens. It’s the most distressing thing that they’ve managed to concoct such a persona that you could look crazy for speaking up. They’re very good at it.
Exactly right. It's also a common tactic for such abusers to get some pics of the victim smiling before abusing them, so that they can leak smiling pictures to discredit the victim.
feel out of place speaking up because the abuser is so well liked.
This is a very important thing about Epstein, he was probably the single most well-connected man in celebrity circles in the 90s. He knew everybody, and everybody knew him, and that enabled him to do all this shit in plain sight - Because all these partys he threw were in fact not just attended by pedophiles like the current sitting US president; all the celebrities of the time were there. Stephen Hawking was there for Christs sake.
It’s all part of the grooming process. You need to be charming and well liked for people to allow you in close proximity with their vulnerable children, unless they’re also pedophiles which a lot of them were
I was the idiot (never found out if there were others) who was not adamant about expressing how I felt about a guy who I knew there was something very wrong with. Everyone else was shocked when he turned out to be a predatory fuck.
It was awful and I still kick the shit out of myself for it. Never again.
I had absolutely nothing concrete to tell my friends/everyone around him. Just strong feelings and absolute did not trust him. He was fake and extremely off and I eventually started to think maybe I was just nuts for thinking/feeling it. I only told a couple people and could have pushed harder even if it made me seem crazy.
When I was a kid my mother had a cousin who was super fun and friendly. He used to be great with kids and was always up for an adventure. I liked him a lot. I remember once when my dad was working my mom and this cousin took to me to a fair, and he was willing to go on all the rides with me and the games, and we ate junk food. All in all, just a fun guy with a kids heart. He also brought my mother this really thoughtful but small gift, but I don’t remember what it was.
My parents saw differently. My father had a funny feeling about him - he thought this cousin was trying a little too hard to get me to like him,
and also my mother as well. I don’t remember what my mother thought.
My parents had this policy of always trusting their intuition and just playing it safe but also being non confrontational. Whenever someone gave them a bad feeling they would not accuse them but would just politely distance from them.
I didn’t see this cousin ever again. Then, in my late thirties, randomly, some other relative who was a woman slightly younger than me (that man’s direct nieces) and I were chatting and one asked if they could use my HBO Max account (or whatever it was called at the time). They checked out my watch history, and saw that I had watched a movie called The Tale, which is a fantastic movie a director made about her own childhood sexual assault, which included the grooming process and all the enablers.
Anyway, after watching it, the news broke out. She asked to set up a video call with me, and told me everything. This jolly fucking cousin was a serial pedophile, who started raping her and her younger sister when they were only three or four. He even pressured their parents to enroll them in tennis lessons with his friend, was also a serial rapist with rapist friends, and they were abused by them too. She described a childhood in which he was always “behind them,” close by, a constant threat against saying anything. She said that once her mother (his sister) asked too many questions about his friends and he got offended but what she was insinuating, and the fight escalated until he grabbed her hair and dragged her out the street and hit her and kicked her. The two sisters, as I know, had always been close and inseparable, but in their thirties the younger one decided to cut off all contact from the family.
Maybe in a better world, my parents would have said something or dug in about their funny feeling. But this man was so exuberant and friendly that it just seemed weird to do so.
Incidentally, there was one other man I remember them distancing me from - a friend’s father. That man always made me uncomfortable because it always seemed like he was trying to get me alone for a conversation when I was at their house. He was a pastor, and they had what I would call a “golden retriever” family - very much a TV family. I never got an update on this one because my friend and I drifted apart, but I know when I ran into her once in my 20’s I learned that she was no contact with her whole family.
I ask because I feel guilty even entertaining the thought that it kinda fucked me up when the people he assaulted are the true victims. I know, rationally, that my getting fucked up by it doesn’t detract from his victims’ trauma, but it still feels selfish to consider it. I fucking hate myself for not trusting my gut more and acting on it…somehow. I even started to think I had to be wrong about him despite not feeling that way at all. Harder to trust people now, coulda shoulda woulda, failed, fuckin hate him, regret, etc. Maybe if I found a way to get under his skin a bit it would have made him act in a way that would have exposed him a bit/enough for others to pick up on it but literally everyone was eating up his bullshit and thought he was just the best guy. “Down to earth” and in touch with his feelings/feminine side, open to being vulnerable, chill, fun - basically perfect for any occasion or conversation. They all had given him complete trust. And now I’m rambling.
But yeah, curious how your parents took the news.
Yeah, that's why different types of crime are committed by different types of people. With mass shootings, you have a lot of emotional instability being acted out. These organized criminal endeavors take a lot to lure the potential victim in taking a lot of planning and require a charismatic, manipulative person who can control their emotional reactions until they have the right conditions to release their impulses and sadism.
In my experience, charismatic people who are willing to share fears and weaknesses in quiet moments, or can turn their charisma down when a moment is clearly about another person are the genuinely good ones.
Well no. Not every charismatic person uses their powers for evil. Y’all need to read The Gift of Fear learn to TRUST YOUR GUT. Use your natural intuition and don’t automatically trust or distrust people based on random characteristics, because that doesn’t actually serve you.
Agreed, though i see a case for arguing its harder for the gut to recognize danger against a charismatic personality since their behaviour is often disarming even for our subconsciousness.
So a little-bitty more suspicion against people that seem to take the lead naturally and get everything they want by being such nice and motivating peeps is warranted id say.
And we know what kind of a guy Epstein was too...? I don't think the person above you was diminishing Epstein's crimes. Charisma has absolutely nothing to do with morality.
Saying someone is charismatic doesn’t mean you personally find them appealing. It means they are charming to people in general. I’m not saying I get it, but idiots seem to love this guy.
Yeah thank you, it’s not that deep. Obviously charisma had a big role in him becoming the idol of millions of people despite being the antithesis to their supposed world view…
He’s also funny. Meatball Ron? Cmon. He’s funny.
He’s the worst. I genuinely wish him tremendous pain and suffering and will feel guiltless glee at news of his death, but I can admit he’s charismatic and funny.
Idiots love him because he appeals to bigots and idiots. He’s not destitute because his dad was rich. Calling him anything positive is objectively incorrect.
Saying someone is “charismatic” is not a compliment or a “positive” as you put it. You can be charismatic because you’re funny or handsome. You can also be charismatic because you’re a manipulative sociopath who’s learned how to appeal to certain types of people. His way of being openly racist while never quite saying the thing that would lead to actual consequences is part of why they love him, as you pointed out. In other words, part of what makes him charismatic to those people.
Not surprising really, that is pretty much the requirement to be able to befriend a lot of powerful figures. Like his relationship with the Saudi prince for example, with Eipstein being an allegedly Mossad agent and all that
Maxwell seemed to be the same way. Her proffer transcripts were fascinating, how easily she rattled off names, time periods, events, relationships, jobs, etc. Even if there are self serving lies in there, I couldn’t retain half of this level of info.
Every picture I’ve seen of him, he looks to be playing to his audience, but in a way that one could believe sincerity if not for hindsight. Even this one, his face is much softer than the ones I’ve seen of him and Trump where Trump looks like he’s saying something terrible like he does, and Epstein is exaggeratedly laughing while turning his face, so his real expression is hidden. If they had a falling out, I suspect it’s something along the lines of Epstein trying to keep his dealings discreet, and Trump being rich, over-exuberant, asshole that says god awful stuff about his own daughter endangering his operations. I doubt they were that close of friends as much as people into shady shit only have so many options, so they keep like-minded company, and look for chances to use them for their gain. And of course they are happy to turn on each other when it looks like consequences might happen because they were only a means to an end (or many ends) in the first place. He’s a terrible person, but you can’t do what he does and get away with it as long as he did without being someone charismatic and someone victims are willing to trust in.
You’re completely right, that famous video of coked up Trump clapping and whispering in his ear. Epstein is laughing but leans over several times so his face is hidden and you can tell he really isn’t laughing.
I have never seen it said like this, but yes, I never thought of it this way but I actually wonder if you are right, now
And remember an interview he kept saying well Jeff hell of a guy or whatever but he likes him even younger than I do was that a little bit of him letting some stuff slip that he “shouldn’t” have
yes, but sociopaths are damaging people's relationships way more often then the average person, so they need a lot of charm and manipulation skills to get away with it.
Trump is a bizarre case. He has a high charisma only to a certain type of idiot, but everyone else immediately sees through him and thinks he's vile and repulsive.
It is just blatantly incorrect to say and think that all sociopaths are charming. That is not at all how it works. It's a wide spectrum like with "normal" people with some sociopaths being very awkward and/or off-putting.
You have likely met a sociopath that wasn't incredibly charismatic and charming but because they were not that, you thought they could not be one.
Oh absolutely he was charismatic. Idk why anyone would think otherwise. Although he was best friends with Donald trump and trump seems like a genuinely horrendous person to be around
Oh absolutely. Idk if I would use the word charming for trump though but definitely would use charismatic. Idk though cuz to me, every time Trump opens his mouth both his narcissism and his stupidity are dripping from every word. But enough people are obsessed with him to say that he is undoubtedly charismatic. It’s honestly got me semi-convinced he’s actually the antichrist (even though I’m an agnostic) since it seems like everyone’s under his spell somehow.
"charming" and "charismatic" are subjective so I absolutely think his cult followers find him to be those things. He's so fucking stupid and idk how it isn't obvious to every one.
He's perceived to be a lot of things, and that seems to be the problem. Those are usually also the people who think that vocabulary beyond an elementary level gives the impression of pretension. They want communications to be brief and simple, as if that makes them any more transparent.
I also think that anyone who finds him charismatic, at least from his recent public depiction, is emotionally-stunted. "Charisma," expressed as condescending, borderline (and sometimes entirely) hostile ranting is no more truly charismatic than the bully who takes it easy on the kids who pretend to be their friends. Realistically, a typical dictator or cult leader would have so much more true charisma than Trump, but his bullshit somehow sneaks past so many detectors. It's wild.
I want to think Trump is charismatic, but he is so proud of being a complete dick. Like, I feel like true chrismatic people make you feel very important, as well as themselves. It's a weird dynamic. I think his dumb fans just don't realize he is including them in his insults.
Are you forgetting we have all heard him speak? I will admit charm is subjective to a degree but who is Donny charming? Also, giving people money is not charming them...
I'm not saying you're calling him charismatic but I will never understand why people call him that. Before and during his first term he actually had some kind of energy but more akin to that of a clown that sometimes entertained because of his bufoonish comments and behaviour. Now he doesn't even has that, he always looks bored out of his fucking mind, his posture is very often curved and rumpled. For all his faults, Obama had actual charisma, which I think is something more gracious and subdued.
He's not. He reeks of excrement and is repellent. But he used to be able to talk up a storm before stealing from someone, and doesn't feel guilt nor shame. He's got enough hateful people backing him now that it doesn't matter too much.
Trump gets really stupid people with no moral, spiritual, or psychic center, people with fragile self-identities, to feel special about themselves. "Oh, he's paying attention to me, this is wonderful." People like Joe Rogan are too stupid and incoherent within themselves to not get roped in.
you could give 1 million dollar loans to 1,000 people, 999 of them would not manage to turn it into over a billion in net worth. that confidence won't go very far when a loan is debt lol
I don’t think Trump is either of those things, although I’ve not met him in person. He is mean though and hateful and that’s why maga likes him. He’s the schoolyard bully and they think he’s “funny”
Trump definitely has some sort of charisma. I mean, around half the american populace seems willing to catch a bullet for him, wearing his merch and venerating him like a god-king, even though he is now in his twilight years and can barely speak a coherent sentence.
Well spoken, calm and respectful demeanour, eye contact, body language and facial expressions to suit the tone of the conversation. Shows empathy to your own position during exchange of views.
…Serial killer. 😵💫
Some sociopaths can completely fake that better than someone genuinely experiencing the moment and reacting a certain way. Everyone fakes things to an extent but they are really good at it. The smart ones learn quickly what society expects and wants, then uses that to get their way. It is a completely indescribably mindset to someone who is not a Psycho-sociopath.
I once described this kind of thing to an ex friend of mine and he literally said "sounds like me". He was not a particularly smart guy, but I think he is doing a little better in life right now than I am because he could be very charming when he wanted to be. He wasn't dangerous, just kind of an asshole.
He wasnt personally going out picking girls up. He had modeling agencies do that for him, then they'd fly over and give him "massages." Most of the girls they found were from shitty neighborhoods where his wealth spoke loudly. A lot of the times the girls were convinced that they were being given a great oppertunity.
My understanding is that yes, he was extremely charming. He didnt just have pedophiles im his orbit, he collected well connected people and apparently fooled most of them.
Even in this photo she is having a great time, I don't know her story but I imagine his good looks (reminds me of Richard Gere in a silver haired well off man kind of way) and his money would lure in his victims. Underneath that was a monster and it's super scary to think about.
I don't think they are saying otherwise. Epstein groomed these girls. It wasn't like he was snatching them off the street and raping them. He built relationships with them, gave them fun and exciting experiences. Then abused them. The fact that he was wealthy, decently attractive, and charismatic helped fuel all of that.
Totally my moms type at that time and era. And probably a lot of other moms types too. I hate to think about how many naive mothers blinded by his charms would uncritically trust him and be willing to provide him anything he asked for if it meant more access to him.
I don‘t think so. I had a pedophile try to groom me once. He was „charming“ the way you‘d imagine a robot with AI try to mimic charm. This I say in retrospect as an adult. But I actually felt an awkwardness/bad feeling in his presence from the beginning. And I was 13 and sheltered.
The moment he started grooming me that bad feeling intensified and I was left conflicted. My gut said run but my mind regurgitated his manipulations and social rules for women at me. Please understand I had no word for what was happening and did not trully even understand it. I was both a highly gifted artistic kid as well as a depressed/sheltered kid. See, I was his literary protegee and he had done me favors for my poetry to appear in a minor publication. But it „felt“ off.
The last day I saw him, he met me alone and proceeded to try to kiss me on the lips. He had over weeks talked about how my poetry was too cramped and how I needed to loosen up which felt weird but plausible as I was writing pages upon pages of love poems to my crush of that time, a boy from school but ofc I lacked any manner of experience of dating. He justified the kiss as „training for me poetry“.
He was 70+ by the way. I was revolted and frozen. At this moment his daughter walked in unexpectedly and he rushedly stepped away from me. What I remember is noticing how he acted as if he did something wrong. I had my confirmation. I proceeded to say I need to go, ran home and hid under my desk, heart racing.
This brazen piece of shit literally called my home numerous times asking my MUM to send me back. My mum asked what was up, I fervently denied anything and faked lack of interest in poetry. I did not want to be victim blamed by my mum as she‘d done previously about catcalling. She, sadly, let it go. As a mum now, I‘m appauled but as an adult woman I know how these monsters manage to keep victimising. So many failures of others.
Imagine that if I was in a healthy family I‘d have told them about it. Imagine, his daughter looked at us super skeptical, like she knew how he was, but did nothing. Imagine this was a writer every adult knew „tutored“ young girls.
I don‘t think these monsters are charming at all. I think they‘re powerful/influential and other people look away or rationalise away what they see/feel and some merely act inside the system by telling you to „stop over the missing stair“.
This was the only pedophile I experienced first hand but as a student I „knew“ from rumours not to write my thesis under the tutelage of X or Y. People almost always know or strongly suspect but do nothing.
A number of his interviews touch on this. He was superficially charming, good at pattern recognition, dumb with knowledge.
He would ask physicists things like, “But what IS up? And what IS down?” and if he couldn’t keep up with a conversation, he’d quip, “But what does that have to do with pussy?”
That kind of guy who knew how to laugh along and look the part so long as you didn’t look to closely.
Listen to Ghislaine speak in the 2nd tape. (1st one is just a sound test.) Really, I urge everyone to listen to at least that one. She sounds charming too. Trump is said to be charming also. These people use that trait to rope people in closer and closer so that they can grab them easily. They seduce before they hurt. It’s scary.
I know nothing about him except some of the acts he committed but I don’t think I am wrong when I say he was a psychopath. The majority of psychopaths aren’t murderers. They just don’t feel bad when they hurt others. I am sure that he was extremely charismatic, attractive to women and men and socially skilled. He probably read people really well. He might not have felt the same emotions that average people feel and he probably had no empathy but he observed people well and knew whom he could manipulate and how. He thought the rules don’t apply to him and he had a total disregard for the rights of others. The only thing he really cared about was himself. Psychopaths are more charming than the average person. Not everyone who is very charming is a psychopath but most psychopaths probably score above average when it comes to charm. They are skilled at it because they know it’s a way to manipulate people.
Rich people can tell you stories about the exciting stuff they've done, about the famous people they've met, buy you cool stuff, and everyone around them sucks up to them. That'll last a while.
He was a predator and they can be good at finding prey while hiding in plain sight, they can read people well enough to know who might be vulnerable and how to act to avoid suspicion. Anyone who feels they're off somehow will likely avoid them but might not know exactly why they don't feel comfortable around them.
Well, it's speculated that he was Mossad, so yeah I'd say they would probably find a very charming person to do that. Also having no morals or qualms about lying to people will allow you to have very interesting, well crafted and entertaining stories.
He was literally a nobody until he gained rich friends.. You don't get to that position without a lot of smooth talking and a way to attract people. It's quite possibly the only actual skill he had
Extremely charming and promising some young girls that didn't know better a career in modelling if they did what he wanted.
Dangerous combo.
And once he's done add then threats like "we are powerful, dont try to sue" to, again, girls who dont know better... Seen that many times in eastern eu where I grew up
Interestingly, that may depend... My partner is possibly the best "people reader" I've ever met (unfortunately a skill he learned early because of dire childhood experiences including SA). The first time he saw footage of Epstein, when the guy was still alive, he pointed out multiple things about his speech and behaviour that for him were absolute "tells." Stuff that would have made him run a country mile if he'd met him in real life - like things that activated the hair on the back of his neck going up.
But then, he's a grown man who learned to read people to survive, not a 15 year old girl from a troubled home who desperately needs money and approval from adults.
Yeah that’s what’s so scary, and also infuriating when victims come forward, because everyone doubts them since the perpetrator had a “good” reputation ://
He was not charming. He was not a genius. He was awkward and needed other women to help him get girls. He also had an egg shaped penis. He wasn't seducing these girls.
A lot of people (relatively speaking) have the kind of money that Epstein did (roughly $200 million at the peak of his trafficking). A lot of those people would not be able to ingrain themselves with so many people and pull off the kind of trafficking operation he was running for so long. Money can't buy you social skills or charisma. Or trust.
I don’t think it’s important to them more so human curiosity as to Why? How did this one person and how he was able to do all of this seemingly unnoticed for so long
It wasn't one person. He had accomplices, one of them currently in prison. This is one reason why people want the list released. And it was noticed, but due to powerful accomplices, the crimes were covered up and continue to be covered up the Trump administration.
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u/Cartagraph 1d ago edited 1d ago
Do you guys think Jeffrey Epstein was charming? I mean I don't know anything about him other than the factual reports and court docs. But I feel like those always leave out some reality of the situation. About what a person is actually like when you're with them. I can't imagine money had everything to do with pulling so many people into his orbit (whether friends or victims). He must've been extremely charismatic to do what he did, with as many people as knew, from so many walks of life for so long.