Gun rights
Jones described himself in September as "a Second Amendment guy" but said there are "limitations" and called for expanded background checks in an interview with MSNBC.
"We've got limitations on all constitutional amendments in one form or another," Jones said. "I want to enforce the laws that we have right now. The biggest issue, I think, that's facing the Second Amendment right now is that we need to make sure we shore up the National Crime Information System, the NCIC system for background checks, to both keep guns out of the hands of criminals, but at the same time, cut down on error so that law-abiding citizens can get those."
Hmm, almost sounds like Moore was actually the one who was going to be taking away the rights of the people of Alabama... oh wait, it's only taking away your rights if you disagree with someone else or they have a (D) next to their name.
How is it you are reasonable and your brother isn't, and does he think you are lying when you tell him Jones isn't anti-gun (because you must have told him right?).
This has long been my stance and I've had numerous debates on reddit and irl about 2A. The prevailing opinion seems to be no laws should be in place to in any way limit gun ownership. It's indefensible and there is never a reason given other than that's their interpretation of the 2nd.
Can confirm, have seen many Democrat AMA's where people agree with the dem on every issue, except the dem wants background checks and so that voter says "That's going to take away guns" and say they will refuse to vote for the dem because of that.
The modern right doesn't just want 'conservatism', they want actual regression. They want the repeal of any and all laws around gun ownership. By that metric, it could be said that Doug Jones is 'anti gun' by comparison.
"Anti-gun" is - I think - a meaningless term. It lumps together someone who thinks we should confiscate and ban all guns (not that I have heard anyone propose that) with someone who solidly supports the right of Americans to own guns but simply wants solid background checks to help keep guns out of the hands of criminals.
This is intentional, the false equivalency is intended to inoculate conservative voter bases against anyone who has even small reservations about unrestricted gun sales by lumping them in with people who want to confiscate all of their firearms.
It's people having an opinion that they have no business having because they never bothered actually researching it, but they just create a narrative based on snippets they picked up from people that also didn't do their research.
It's people like this who shouldn't be allowed to vote.
The Trump Trifecta is something he's been repeating in basically the exact same words for every democratic candidate lately. It's incredibly lazy and doesn't have any bearing on actual policies or history, but that doesn't seem to matter since his supporters take it as truth. Political discourse in the Trump era really has devolved into Idiocracy.
Some people are very black and white. Apparently all Democrats are on one side of the argument and Republicans are on the other. They can't fathom that there are some Democrats that agree with Republicans and vice versa. I mean, how is it so hard to vote for the person that's right for the job, regardless of what party they represent. This is all so stupid. How a pedo was even in the running in the first place shows how dumb the system is.
Man they were running ads all month that were targeting Jones exclusively on abortion. I didn't see a single Roy Moore ad besides the one about abortion. "Doug Jones supports abortions up to 20 weeks". Yeah buddy, abortions are legal up to 20-24 weeks across the country, including Alabama. He's literally just upholding the current law.
Tbf, while there are some Dems who want a gun ban, there are plenty that want anything from gun background checks or registries or just more focus on gun violence including suicide. We just all get lumped with the gun banners every time.
gun owning liberal checking in- the quoted statement is something about 90% of gun owners would agree with, not to mention it shows he's informed on the topic unlike about 100% of democratic politicians who bring it up.
It's egregiously wrong, since this is a quote from Jones:
I’m a supporter of the Second Amendment. When you see me with a gun, folks, I’ll be climbing in and out of a deer stand or a turkey blind, not prancing around on a stage in a cowboy suit.
That is weird. I too am pro gun, but I realize that the NCIC isn't the problem. I think we just plainly have too many guns to prevent mass shootings. We passed the tipping point long ago. It's time to roll back government protections/immunity and make it easier to take back the government without guns. More legal recourse for government overreach. Then go the Europe/Australia/Canada model on guns. We should all be embarrassed with our record on mass shootings and stop with the bullshit.
It's insane. Even Jeff Sessions has admitted that expanded background checks for violent offenders are desperately needed. They truly live in their own reality.
My family is conservative, and in my parent's house, Fox News is on literally all day long. I feel your frustration.
I try to tell them that because disinformation is being weaponized, it's critical that they get their news from a wide variety of sources. But if my dad turns the channel and watches CNN or MSNBC, he gets angry within minutes and switches back to Fox. He dislikes anyone who criticizes Trump, in any way.
It's absolutely insane. They didn't used to be this bad. Now they just accept whatever Fox News feeds them. It's like they joined a cult.
I make the argument that advertising to a degree, when done well, reflects the character of the target market they're hitting. MSNBC tends to have more mainstream advertising, because that's who's watching. CNN is advertising heaven if you're going for moderately smart, middle aged Americans who maybe still while not always being cognizant of privilege, don't generally get rubed and can be spoken to. Fox advertises to the old and successful, but increasingly stupid due to diminishing mental capacities elderly of this country who "grew up in a different America." Then they fill the rest of that market with the young and uneducated poor whites in rural America, catching the stupidity before it can break out of it. Hence, GOLD! commercials, and other cringy ads that reek scam appeal to that target market.
Know someone who wants to be a Doctor in Alabama because they need them for their fat white trash obese citizens who have a litany of spinal and back issues issues over the years that cause ankle problems. He gets paid because even though they'll vote GOP till they die, he knows when they come in for those treatments without coverage they'll probably be getting some funding by the government, either through some hospital safety net, or some program they magically qualify for but "doesnt count" as government assistance.
Hello! I'm William Devane, you know the world is a crazy place these days, big government, the national debt, and fed printing money like there's no tomorrow. That's why a buy gold from Rosland Capital.
I'e been trying to make myself watch occasionally.
Getting angry shuts down rational thought so I figure I need to keep a cool head even when I'm being firehosed with BS.
Also, I need clear and concise arguments to use as lifelines for people drowing in said bullshit.
Bringing down Trump might only solidify his ideas even more. He will think it was "the deep state" and that it was a witchhunt. The cult of Trump isn't going away until they literally drink the Kool-Aid.
This is partially why I think, even with the Mueller organization, we need to let Trump fall flat on his fucking face as many times as possible.
I still haven't challenged my dad recently as he's seeing how dumb Trump is and getting frustrated with him. Remind him that his own staff calls him a fucking moron and see how they react, because honestly I don't know how it can get through to anyone.
Well, it's even worse than that. Fox is spinning up this narrative that even if/when the special counsel finds Trump guilty, it won't be legitimate. So even if/when Trump resigns or is impeached, a lot of their viewers will believe it was done wrongly, that it really is the biggest witch hunt in the history of America, perpetrated by a liberal power network.
After Nixon fell, virtually no one believed he was innocent. When Trump falls, there will still be a ton of people who think he was innocent. So bringing down Trump might not be enough to break the spell.
Trump is the kind of kid that when he loses, he takes his ball and goes home. He could give a shit about the presidency, but he's going to want to keep all these adoring fans. Getting Trump out of the oval office isn't going to be the end of his dark influence.
Well, it's even worse than that. Fox is spinning up this narrative that even if/when the special counsel finds Trump guilty, it won't be legitimate.
The only thing on our side at this time is Trumps words. Not saying yes or no, but he's so into saying "BELIEVE ME!" that when (if) it comes down on him people will have acknowledge that Trump either is a dumbass or Fox news is wrong, which will be super fucking abrupt as shit. BUBBLE!!
Do you actually think the kind of person whose analysis of US politics brought them to vote for Trump is going to suddenly become a reasonable person with good critical analysis tools just because Trump falls? At best they are just going to say they were wrong about that one thing, and find the next mistake to make.
I have seen the same thing with my dad. He was always conservative, but used to be much more moderate. He has slowly shifted further and further to the right and is unwilling to hear a counterpoint.
Anything that makes trump look bad is fake news or lies spread, or a calculation they’re making differently so Trump looks worse than Obama. I haven’t lived at home in almost a decade, so I’m sure I’ve just missed the gradual change. But I realized how bad it had gotten when we went in a family vacation and were at the beach. He put his book down to go upstairs and I saw that he been reading some “conservative manifesto” written by some tea party guy.
It’s scary, I’ve always thought of his as extremely reasonable and someone I could discuss politics with and have a real conversation, but that has all gone away in a matter of about 3 years.
CNN and MSNBC are barely more factual than fox. They are both a joke too. It's frustrating watching news channels greatly exaggerate and lie about things to appease their listeners.
People that watched Fox News were less knowledgeable than people that watched no news at all. Both CNN and MSNBC were slightly above nothing for domestic questions, but CNN failed at international questions.
NPR ruled all.
They found that someone who watched only Fox News would be expected to answer 1.04 domestic questions correctly compared to 1.22 for those who watched no news at all. Those watching only "The Daily Show with Jon Stewart" answered 1.42 questions correctly and people who only listened to NPR or only watched Sunday morning political talk shows answered 1.51 questions correctly.
[...]
In terms of international news, people correctly answered an average of 1.8 of 4 questions.
With all else being equal, people who watched no news were expected to answer 1.28 correctly; those watching only Sunday morning shows figured at 1.52; those watching only "The Daily Show" figured at 1.60; and those just listening to NPR were expected to correctly answer 1.97 international questions.
Those watching only MSNBC were expected to correctly answer only 1.23 out of 4, while viewers of only Fox News figured at 1.08.
Edit: More readily digestible charts are available through the link.
9 questions total - 5 domestic and 4 international.
You can find the actual study here.
The questions were:
To the best of your knowledge, have the opposition groups protesting in Egypt been successful in removing Hosni Mubarak?
How about the opposition groups in Syria? Have they been successful in removing Bashar al-Assad?
Some countries in Europe are deeply in debt, and have had to be bailed out by other countries. To the best of your knowledge, which country has had to spend the most money to bail out European countries?
There have been increasing talks about economic sanctions against Iran. What are these sanctions
supposed to do?
Which party has the most seats in the House of Representatives right now?
In December, House Republicans agreed to a short-term extension of a payroll tax cut, but only if President Obama agreed to do what? (Open-Ended)
It took a long time to get the final results of the Iowa caucuses for Republican candidates. In the end, who was declared the winner? (Open-Ended)
How about the New Hampshire Primary? Which Republican won that race? (Open-Ended)
According to the figures, about what percentage of Americans are currently unemployed? (Open-Ended)
They absolutely exaggerate, but CNN and MSNBC are measurably more factual than FOX. There are neutral third parties fact checking and you can look into their sources.
I feel you, man. I have a similar situation . . . but it wasn’t always that way. He was an Army Officer in the Pentagon during Bush Sr, and he will still reflect on the days he used to check all the news networks to disseminate information for the purpose of figuring out what is going on around the country & world. Broadcast news media is (or maybe was) their eyes & ears back then. He didn’t become a Fox News only guy overnight. It was gradual over many years after retirement (which was during Clinton).
It’s kinda funny and kinda sad. When my sister was dating her future husband, he introduced me to Comedy Central, specifically MST3K. CC didn’t have a lot of its own programs back then, but I began my teens on CC, and just kinda evolved into a Daily Show lifer because I loved Norm MacDonald’s Weekend Update on SNL and was always craving more of that news humor. I was approaching my 20’s when Jon Stewart took over, and my dad was just becoming an O’Reilly fan. The disconnect between the two was unreal. I’d watch The O’Reilly Factor with my parents one day, then TDS in my bedroom later, and it was like I could find all the rebuttals to Fox’s nonsense.
Now I love watching Last Week Tonight for pretty similar reasons. It’s like truly informing their viewers is priority #1, calling people on their bullshit is priority #2, and comedy is priority #3.
If anything, these daily show types got me to realize the importance of one thing I’ve heard from many of my teachers: diversify your sources with historically reliable ones. Fox News has zero awards in broadcast journalism. Mainstream outlets have them. You’ve got a nasty case of cognitive dissonance if you think all those different awards in broadcast journalism are conspiring against Fox.
Sounds like my dad. I purposely avoid political discussion like the plague now because I really don't want to discover that he supports people who support abuse and bigotry.
I feel ya. My instinct is to say that the trick is to get him away from cable news in general, but if you point them toward the internet they are just going to be drawn to the Breitbarts of the world, which is of course assuming that they will listen to us at all.
Well, that's their house and their cable box, you see. They have the right to have their own opinions, especially in their own house, no matter how fucked up I happen to think they are. And to their credit, I know they would say the same about me.
Also, they like fed me & stuff for about 25 years, so I'm not sure what kind of stand I'd be making.
Quoting another post I've seen that is somewhat applicable:
Getting people to love you is really hard. People are particular about who they love. But getting people to hate something is much much easier. You don't have to make people love GOP representatives, all you have to do is make them hate the democratic competition. Anything is better than letting a democrat win. There are many people in Alabama who do believe the allegations against Moore, but will still vote for him because he's very unlikely to rape them personally, and so it's better than putting a democrat in power who will surely eat their flesh while dancing and singing a song to satan.
Vilify higher education. Vilify "half speak" and complex answers and feelings. Vilify the idea of "handouts". Make success itself seem like a bad thing. Make the people feel like they are personally under physical and emotional attack at all times in favor of "the other" and they will vote against their best interest every single time. They learn to love the shit-filled hole you've put them in, and know that anyone coming to help them out of it is the enemy tricking them.
There is no solution for this brainwashing. There is no talking to a republican who believes in his gut that all liberals are evil. You can not convince him with facts, or evidence, or results. The only option is to overwhelm him at the polls, which is why the GOP also works to be sure that liberals struggle to unite behind a single candidate, and why voter suppression and gerrymandering are so important to them.
There are alot of people here though that do the same thing with Fox. And MSNBC is arguably close to as bad for politicizing news as Fox, the other way. I prefer to get my news from NPR
That's true... except you forgot that in their eyes, making abortion illegal isn't taking rights away -- it's giving more rights to religious folk to, uh....
Fuck this. I can't do it. They try to spin these bullshit "religious rights" bills so they appear to be granting long-lost equal footing to persecuted Christians; when in reality, it's always all about giving therm the power to take some other -- usually actually persecuted minority -- group's power and rights away.
It's fucking sick. The way the GOP embraces these fundamentalist perversions as the teachings of god and the bible to stand on some phony moral high ground is just pure fucking evil
This blatant disregard for secular humanism is against my religious beliefs.
Also, I Roy Moore can put up the Ten Commandments in a government building, why can't I put up a Shrine to Baccus?
What makes his Religion better than mine?
That's true... except you forgot that in their eyes, making abortion illegal isn't taking rights away -- it's giving more rights to religious folk to, uh....
Fuck this. I can't do it.
It's about the rights of the baby to them. Let's not be disingenuous on their viewpoints. You can't even begin to discuss it if you can't begin to understand it (even if you don't agree with it).
And when you look at their respective platforms, even the accusation that Jones will take away rights is absurd. One candidate wants to increase rights, and the other doesn't believe any amendment after 10 is valid.
Even then, it wasn't Jones supporters who were closing down polling places in primarily Black counties, either. If anyone wanted to take away rights, it was Moore.
Guesses: Stereotype about women can't drive and shouldn't be trusted to vote? Some stereotype about POC can't drive? Possibly some commentary on undocumented persons (who also can't vote) and how they can't drive? Maybe some sort of neural synapse about needing identification (usually a driver's license) to vote?
Agree - but maybe 1) he's dumb/wrong/uninformed or 2) he meant all women? I don't know if I have seen that breakdown yet. Perhaps overall women (thanks to black women) voted for Jones.
I think he meant Dems in general.. or.. black people? Maybe poor people? Maybe he saw a lot of voters get rides? Idk.. I think he just doesn't like that people went out of their way to drive people to vote.
This is probably the case. The right-wingnuts are already claiming that busloads of felons or "illegals" were dropped off at polling locations to cast fraudulent ballots.
Maybe he was frustrated about a shitty driver he recently encountered and since he was already is rant mode he decided to just sneak that in there real quick.
That is one of my favorites to use. Alongside, if he meets the person who saved the 5000 embryos and left the screaming child to burn to death, how would he feel about that "hero"?
I expect (I have no empirical evidence) that our biology and our innate drive to survive would not even permit our brains to register that choice in that situation. A baby screaming... a burning building... instinct would cause us to pick up the baby and run away and would not process anything more.
Idk.. it might be like that philosophy hypothetical question.. 'Would you turn the train to run over one person or let it keep going, and run over 5 people?' I still have no idea what I'd do..
It's different because your example is action vs inaction. A better comparison would be a burning building with two rooms, one with five children, one with one, which room would you save?
I'm pro-abortion and against Moore, but this is such a silly argument. What exactly is your point with it? To someone who is against abortion, those 5000 embryos are children. The only reason they might pick the child is because the child is older and has some life experience worth saving, but that doesn't prove much.
The point is that often they will say that the embryos are children but still choose the 1 child because they know that they're not the same really...
It's pushing on the contradiction.
Which is moronic since the national abortion rate is at an all time LOW! Or it was while we had access to affordable birth control and planned parenthood clinics...lordy I miss Obama.
I'm sure some of them are being honest about that, but since that senator is most likely going to have zero impact on the legality of abortion in Alabama and elsewhere (and abortion rates pretty consistently drop faster under Democrats), for most Moore voters it's probably just an easy out. You can excuse almost any disgusting candidate simply by saying, "I literally believe the other guy is in favor of killing human babies." There's not much to say after that.
I'm personally pretty pro-life. I'm in favor of banning abortions of healthy pregnancies that resulted from consensual adult sex after 10 weeks, and a ban after 18 weeks if the mother was not a consenting adult). That strikes me as the right balance between the mother's right to bodily integrity and our ethical duty not to kill humans.
There are plenty of people who reasonably believe all abortions are immoral or any restrictions on a mother's right to choose is unethical. The fact this has become a partisan issue is what has allowed the Republican party to spin into a cult. I wish all issues relating to abortion were decided by ballot initiatives or some other way so that no voter would use this issue as an excuse for falling into kakistocracy.
The problem is that evangelical voters are not sane like you or me. To them, abortion is THE issue, and any and all abortions are straight up murder. It's crazy.
Evangelical Christianity is ruining this country. Glad to see sanity won in Alabama last night.
Men down south are obsessed with abortion and I'm beginning to wonder if it's because that means less young attractive women to hopefully just look at. Sorry about your brother.
That's a popular meme, and certainly a lot of hardcore evangelists teach such obedience … but whether the idea is one women hold because of their husbands or themselves, the question remains: what can actually be done about it
In the case of actual indoctrination, not much. If a husband is 100% hardcore about a certain candidate, the wife is very unlikely to cause a rift at the homestead by going out and cancelling her husbands vote.
I have zero numbers, but I'd be willing to bet the VAST majority of households vote the same, red or blue. Obviously there would be more than one reason for this, not just obedience/subservience, but still. Maybe blue and red just don't tie the knot that often and Alabama is red af.
That's a very good point to raise - it's hard to imagine in this day and age that Democrats and Republicans in Alabama are necessarily intimate on a large scale. People tend to hang out with likeminded others over people they disagree with.
The correlation may well be likeminded husbands and wives instead of men 'oppressing' a vote from helpless women.
Who knows? Men and women are brainwashed into thinking these things. I think a big part is lack of diversity growing up. And the fact that idiots are allowed to homeschool their kids.
Also, sex ed should start early and be a national curriculum.
From experience, these women are not allowed, culturally, to deviate from their husbands, and decades of brainwashing makes them this that's normal and okay.
It's a pretty reasonable interpretation of what you typed. You are saying if a woman is has a certain opinion (that you happen to disagree with) they must be indoctrinated by their husbands.
Yeah no. All ideas aren't equal, all people aren't special, and someone's shitty ideology where slavery and forced birth are good things that Jesus loves doesn't get an A for participation.
If you think it's murdering a baby, then it makes sense. Imagine if the argument was that you should be able to kill your baby up until it was 3 months old. I bet you'd be pretty passionatly against it.
All i can say is that alot of people really believe that is an embryo is human life, and they believe taking that life is murder... I am pro-choice, but acknowledge that there are cultural differences and it does no good to demonize the other side, or ascribe strawman positions to them
I think a lot of people have been told that and they just accept it. It's not scientifically or legally true but you can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink.
Just curious- What scientifically indicates that an embryo is not human life? I see life as a continuum, and the embryotic stage is simply a part of that process. Edited spelling.
Thank you for being pro-choice especially if you're not a woman. Forcing pregnancy on a woman because a pea-sized thing is considered a "human life" somehow is okay, baffles me.
Even then they still hate it but see it as necessary to keep their current lifestyle. Lots of folks still remember the 80s when you'd send your daughter to Europe for a semester of study to get it taken care of.
I'm assuming this is some generic "all these idiots I'm on the road with have no idea how to drive" thing that he complains about so much it came out like a tick on his rant.
Guesses: Stereotype about women can't drive and shouldn't be trusted to vote? Some stereotype about POC can't drive? Possibly some commentary on undocumented persons (who also can't vote) and how they can't drive? Maybe some sort of neural synapse about needing identification (usually a driver's license) to vote?
I've gotten similar texts from people I used to know in the Obama days, and my family would certainly have sent me something way too similar if we were on better terms. It's horrifying to see someone's personality so consumed by something like this. I'm very sorry about your brother.
Funny, people love hunting and guns here in Vermont and we elect Democrats all the time. Pretty sure I've still got my rights too. Huh. Must be Fake News.
Oh the irony of Doug Jones being a "baby killer" and Roy Moore's child preying is okay. When will they see that their anti abortion stance holds zero water if they don't care what happens to a child after it is born?
The denial of reality is a pretty common and disturbing trend. I dunno if these people just completely ignored all the articles and interviews from the accusers or if their favorite conservative talk show has just warped them this badly. I'm sure some would have voted for him even if the allegations we're 100% proven but I think most just denied they were true. These people really think that all the accusers, dozens of people from the town and every major media outlet are in on a huge conspiracy.
I can't even understand that quote/rant at all. What the fuck is he going on about..? I am so confused. Seems like he shit out of his mouth and expected it to make sense.
I love the "kiss your rights goodbye." Umm whose rights? Womens? Blacks? Muslims? LGBT? Nah man we just insured that some lunatic doesn't take us back a century to the "good ol' days."
So voters only care about abortion and guns? How about better education, affordable healthcare, higher minimum wage, better maternal and paternal leave or minimum paid time off?
My dad feels 100% this way. Thinks the allegations against Moore are made up because "why would they wait so long?" And Doug Jones is pro-choice, so he's obviously of the devil.
(Thankfully, he's a convicted felon still on probation, so he couldn't vote!)
I have white people on my social media right now posting bible verses about "no matter the condition of this world, God is still in control" with captions saying something like "I really needed this after waking up to things today," hinting at their disappointment in the election results.
And the OC mentioned something about how this wasn't a Christian issue since Jones is a Methodist. Lol. In Alabama, Methodist means you might be christian, but everyone knows Baptists are the true Christians.
I was sad I couldn't vote for Jones yesterday, but thankful I got the hell out of that place.
You hear this from them all the time and i would just love for one of them to unpack that for me. Exactly what are you talking about? The level of brainwashing going on here is crazy
Shit..what is wrong with your brother? I can't believe there are some people who are so brainwashed, they will believe anything!
As a woman, it should be my right to decide what I want to do with a no bigger than a size of a pea cell stuck in my body!
I don't get it--what does driving have to do with this? Is this about city-dwellers who are more likely to take public transit and vote Democrat? Or what?
Jesus Christ, can we stop categorically shitting on everyone in Alabama already? You realize you're denigrating every college student, every engineer, every scientist, and besides all those, hundreds of thousands of decent folk? They have institutional issues, yes, but shitting on them like this does nothing but cause more division.
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u/[deleted] Dec 13 '17 edited Apr 25 '18
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