they limit the opening hours of facilities in poor areas, as well as reducing the amount of locations, so that poor people have to travel farther and at more inconvenient times than people in affluent areas. and affluent people can more easily afford to take a few hours off work to go get an ID than a poor person can to start off with.
Also to expand, it can be the cost of the ID itself. If you don't drive, and are living paycheck to paycheck, its hard sometimes to work in the cost of a state ID. This is especially true of the poor elderly, who are on fixed incomes, and are reliant on someone to get them to and from the proper facility to get a state ID.
Edit: I expanded that cost can be a factor in voter ID and its harmful impact on POOR people and their ability to vote. Its not about race, but a person's economic status. In our country most people have a legal form of ID one way or another, but for some any cost, whether its the cost of the ID, the cost to take time off, or the cost to get to a physical location is a real issue.
More importantly, if you don't have a current valid ID, you need to jump through incredible hoops to get it. You need proof of residence. What if you're living with a relative because times are hard? Two utility bills in your name, which can be hard to do with shitty credit. Then a birth certificate. Again, might be cost prohibitive, or it can be time consuming to get it. You may have lost it in a move - again, affects low income families more. And the list goes on.
Getting that type of shit when you're only 18 is ridiculous. Hell, I needed two pieces of mail just to get a library card.
What pisses me off is that we can't just use our voter registration cards. Also, why can we only register to vote at the DMV? My local polling place is the public library. Why can't I register to vote there? When I want to vote early, I go to the Board of Elections. Why can't I register to vote there? I hate the DMV. It's full of unhappy impatient people like me.
The state must offer a form of voter ID that itself is free, otherwise it's considered an unconstitutional poll tax. But the documents required to get the ID might not be free.
Woah, I had no idea states are allowed to charge for voter IDs. How is that not the same thing as a poll tax?! My disgust for these laws just intensified.
Most if not all states have free voter IDs, but many of them don't advertise it, so if you don't know where to look you'll never find it. They can also require supporting documentation that can be costly, inconvenient, or impossible to obtain.
Not only is it unfair to poor people, but impoverished Americans, statistically, are more likely to be African American. While we have made great strides against prejudice in our society, it is unfair and untrue to say it doesn't still exist.
Or the classic sure you can technically get voter ID. All you have to do is go in state capital, visit this obscure single office, that is only open in office hours. You need to will this exhaustive application in triplicate and leave all relevant attachments. If even single attachment is missing refile completely. Oh and yeah some of those identity proof documents cost money. If there is enough malicious will, there is a way.
However there is some non malicious basic systemic probblems. Frankly the solution to this is comprehensive real time population registry eliminating need to separately track voters combined with universally issued resident ID cards. Person has their ID and then they just keep their residency information up to date with the registry.
Since there is the real issue of determining voter eligibility and preventing voter impersonation. However pretty sure by the word comprehensive registry large portion of USA population started warding against ultimate evil rituals.
The base issue is USA has trouble identifying and maintaining the residency information of people in general. Which isn't problem in case of picket fence family having car and not moving a lot, but in case of people living more nomadic life with less resources this is a real problem. It isn't only about who the person is but for example their home address/town effects ones voting district etc.
Some states now have voter IDs, but states that still have state IDs its around $10 or so. The documents needed to get a voter ID can cost a person, and require a decent amount of time.
Generally, when challenged in court states have had to remove a fee for a state ID that is not also a drivers license. So, most (non-DL) IDs are free. What Alabama did was to close many DMV offices in rural and black parts of the state making it harder for certain groups to physically get to the office to obtain an ID. How do you get to a DMV 20 miles away to get your ID when you don't have a drivers license to begin with?
Even if they're free, sometimes the documents to get the free ID aren't free. You have to pay to get a copy of your birth certificate. If you don't have your original social security card, you gotta pay to get that too.
I'm glad you stayed and it is harder for people who are poor and poor does not equal skin color but anyone who is on a low income paycheck to paycheck could be affected by voter ID laws no matter your skin color no matter your beliefs, if you don't have the money it's harder to vote.
Which in America seems unfathomable, just saying since they think themselves the nation to spread democracy to other nations and yet it makes it harder for their own people to vote.
I have a habit of losing my ID and have to pay 25-50 $ every time. If it was a requirement to vote in my state I wouls not have been able to vote in november. We live paycheck to paycheck and I didnt want to spend food money for a friggin id. I know who I am.
Just spent $220 to renew my and my wife's passports. Plus the post office only does them between 10am-3pm during the week and Saturdays but they say you have to have an appointment and Saturdays are always booked.
just looked it up. here in sweden, you either need to be knows to the person working at the voting booth, or you need to show ID, or you need someone to vouch for you and then they will show their ID
we can however vote beforehand if you cant make it to the voting booth on the day, iirc you have three weeks to send in your vote
Because people are already paranoid about the government as it is. Instead our national ID is a weak set of numbers we call a Social Security Number. Honestly for personal protection this is an issue that should be addressed in our country.
Exactly though since those are the federal countries. The USA is the federal country that doesn't have an ID. ID's in the USA come from states. So visiting other states like Massachusetts one's ID from California can be denied for things like buying alcohol.
It's complicated. For one, states have historically been very important here. In the past, the federal government arguably had even less power than the EU has over it's member states. Additionally, there is a lot of mistrust of the federal government. People don't want the government to issue a national ID. State governments actively sabotage the federal government's attempts to establish even a basic level of uniformity between state IDs.
Not having a national ID causes a host of problems. Some of them are so bizarre that unless you lived here you wouldn't believe me. Even more bizarre is that Americans generally don't understand how bizarre these issues are and that they don't exist in other countries.
In Mexico we all have a voter ID, you can't really do any kind of paperwork without that ID (heck, you can't even get into a nightclub without it), so people get it as soon as they turn 18. It's completely free, appointments to get it are usually very accommodating (like, offices are open way past office hours and there are many on each site), and it is the same at the federal level. When voting, the people at the voting booth have a booklet containing the pictures of all IDs registered at that sector, and they have too look you up there with your ID so you can vote.
Of course, this being the USA, a system like that would be probably opposed on grounds of "my freedom not to pay for a better voting system!".
Thats fucked up man. From India here. We got a billion people. We have a separate voting ID card that is mandatory for every adult citizen. We don't have separate timings for polling booths in different areas rich or poor. Plus our election is overseen by the Election Commission which is a constitutionally independent organisation, that has the powers to:
Remove personnels from the executive, judiciary and legislative branches of the sitting government if it believes that personnel is a hindrance to free and fair elections.
For a period before election to election date, the entire administrative and security functionality becomes the responsibility of the Election Commission. None of the appointed and elected members of the government during this period can do any thing without authorisation from the Election Commission.
The commission can also kill bills that are designed to cause voter suppression.
The EC also does keeps organising camps very very frequently in schools, colleges, community centers etc where people can go and get their voter ID card made for free.
In Canada we do similar with voting times. All polling booths are open for the same hours ( Usually 8 am to 8 pm ) on voting day. Booths are placed based on population size and accessibility. Often small isolated areas will have their own voting places even if there's only 50 people living there.
To vote, all we require is you prove your identity and address. This can be done by photo ID with address on it, government issued health card and a piece of mail showing your current residence, or my a vouching system which allows an individual who can prove where they live and who they are to vouch for another person, essentially swearing that this person is who who they say they are and they they live at this address. Homeless people can vote by obtaining a document from a shelter they may frequent. We register people on voting day at the polls as well. No need to pre-register.
It's just another problem to keep people who don't vote from starting to vote. Every single hurdle is to make it seem like it's not worth your time and effort, to compound on the initial assumption that your input isn't relevant. If it was completely simple and easy, you would just go out and vote, and they don't want that.
But I have a serious question though. Do poor people in disenfranchised areas not have a drivers license, or other forms of state ID? An example would be a MA liquor ID card. I know what you guys are saying about taking time off of work, travel, and everything makes sense if your in a vacuum. However, you need an ID to buy liquor, rent a hotel room, for starting a new job, and a whole host of other things. I really don’t see what’s wrong with requiring an ID to vote if all of the above (and a lot more) do require it, and they’re minor in implications compared to voting?
I look at it from a different perspective, similar to those who view the 2nd amendment as sacred and unquestionable. There shouldn't be any hurdles in voting, and results should be checked carefully afterwards. Requiring a card and other ID does put a burden, and I am against any kind when it comes to this civic duty.
But in order to buy a gun, you must pass a background check, and be issued a license. I don't agree with a "background check" for obtaining an ID for voting, but I also don't think that it is some kind of big, evil conspiracy to keep people down either.
As I said in my original post; if hotels are more stringent than voting, I think something might be wrong with the system. Although, if you were to put in a full nationwide voter ID law, the card should be free to obtain, and they should have pop-up shops from each state to go into the more rural areas. Just my thoughts though, but I am just some guy on the internet lol.
There are numerous ways to get around background checks for guns, and you have the NRA trying to keep it that way. I am for least restrictive participation in our democratic process for all citizens. If you look at most reasonable measures, its nearly impossible for individuals to manipulate the system in a significant ways. The issue becomes higher up the chain where they can throw thousands of votes away, or manipulate results in other manners.
I would have less of a problem if they adequately allowed all citizens the opportunity to obtain ID cards, by having all members of the population covered, at times that are convenient to them. I also want the cost to obtain to be low, by making it cheaper for person to get the necessary documents they need.
That's what I was saying about the pop-up shops. They should have the state(s) come to the people, even if it's off-work hours or on the weekends. They could make it work if they actually tried.
I think a key part of voter ID laws aren't just about requiring an ID. There's also the element where you make the ID more difficult for the targeted group to obtain.
They mentioned on Monday's Pod Save America that Alabama has been systematically closing DMVs for a few year, and there now isn't a single DMV in a majority black county. That means if you're an African American working a minimum wage job and you walk/take public transportation to work (not sure how substantial public transport is in rural Alabama) then you need to somehow arrange time off, and transportation at least one county over just to get an ID.
Taking a taxi could be prohibitively expensive. Getting a ride from a friend or family member could mean another person taking time off from a minimum wage job. It's not impossible, but it is a lot more difficult than say a suburban professional who can plan out a few hours one day to zip over to the local DMV and has their own reliable transportation.
Do poor people in disenfranchised areas not have a drivers license, or other forms of state ID?
Correct, they frequently don't.
Also, someone else mentioned something I think is worth mentioning - a lot of the voter ID laws are based on requiring specific pieces of ID that cater to the groups they're trying to cater to. Like gun licenses being acceptable but college IDs, not so much. So it's possible that I might have a liquor ID card (which requires plenty of background documentation to get) but that's not good enough to vote with - I need a state ID for that.
Well, I know in MA it's technically illegal to walk around without an ID. How enforceable that is - is beyond me, and only makes your life difficult should you get in trouble.
College ID's don't mean anything, even here in MA. That's specific to the college. I just can't wrap my head around how some people don't have an ID, or a drivers license - especially in a place as rural as Alabama. Maybe in MA where we have the T that may not be the case, I just can't fathom it. Then again - I don't live there, and I don't see what it would actually take to get a license/ID card etc; from them.
in MA it's technically illegal to walk around without an ID.
Are you sure about that? I moved from MA a couple of years ago, and I've never heard that before. I can't find anything about it in a couple of minutes of searching. Closest thing I can find are "Stop and Identify" laws, which make it necessary to identify yourself to police, but only if you're suspected of committing a crime.
For what it's worth, I'm with you - I can't imagine not having an ID. But that's kind of the point. Just because you can I couldn't do without it doesn't mean that other people don't, and laws should be structured with them in mind just as much.
That's what I am talking about (the Stop and Identify law). It's one of those grey areas. They're not going to go around searching random people, but you will need to have one in case you are questioned. As always - you shouldn't put yourself in that position in the first place to be questioned by police.
Unlike other states, Massachusetts does not have a "stop and identify" law (a law that allows police to arrest a person, who they reasonably believe is involved in criminal activity, for refusing to identify themselves).
No you need to prove you are of legal age. Usually this means a driver's license. If you don't have a driver's license you can get an official state ID. In Maine it looks like a driver's license but it's just proof of identity. In Massachusetts the official ID is called a Massachusetts Driver's License.
I live in Texas and you're supposed to have a license to buy liquor. They don't check at many places, especially if you are well over 30. I think it's dumb to require checks for people that are obviously not underage so I don't complain.
So yeah, you can definitely buy liquor at places that don't care (poor parts of town). You can definitely rent a hotel room without an ID (poor parts of town). You can definitely start a new job as a cash only hire (poor parts of town and contractors).
It's absolutely possible to live in this day and age without state ID. It's not great, and you won't live well, but that's kind of the point. These laws don't affect middle class people with cars and insurance and credit cards.
Free and available? Because cost is only one roadblock that's put up. If there's no nearby facilities available to get one, or they're only open during weekday business hours when most people are working, then making IDs free wouldn't change the situation enough to change my opinion.
Free and readily available I could maybe be okay with, but I'm still not convinced. I could be wrong but I don't think there's evidence that voter fraud is a big enough issue that voter ID is necessary to combat it.
Don't you think it would be easier to detect voter fraud if proper ID was required?
Getting an ID is really simple. You just have to wait in a long line.
Should we pass laws that make it mandatory for employees to have the opportunity to gain identification?
I think there are ways to make this practical. When I got out the navy, I was making 300 dollars in a week in San Diego. An extremely high cost of living. I managed to make it happen.
I am white, so potentially that made it easier. I do feel like the clerks at the DMV hated me like they hate everyone else.
"You just have to wait in a long line" is underselling it. If there's no DMV within 50 miles of you, and the closest one is only open 11-4, four weekdays a week, it's an unreasonable burden.
I've struggled to make ends meet, too. Many of us have. The point isn't that some people can make it happen, it's that we shouldn't have to. Voting's supposed to be sacrosanct in America.
I don't understand what you're saying about mandatory opportunities to gain identification, I'm sorry.
Wait, wasn't Trumps strong base of supporters in Rural Areas in BumfuckEgypt? I haven't surveyed the country to extreme amounts to know, but I thought minorities were a lot more dense in large cities.
What I meant was making it an obligation for your employer to give you time off on the weekdays to get an ID the same way we currently are allowed to have time off to vote.
if they were free it would still be wrong. My right to vote is not based on if I have a job that lets me take off between 8 and 5 to wait in line for an hour to get an ID card. Its an undue hardship on poor people to discourage their voting fix a problem (voter fraud) that doesnt meaningfully exist.
My right to vote is not based on if I have a job that lets me take off between 8 and 5 to wait in line for an hour to get an ID card
It's based on being a citizen of the US that isn't a felon, basically. And how would we know you are a citizen of the US? If a tourist comes over on an election day, what's to say they couldn't vote?
But even so, if any of your paperwork is missing or out of date you might have a hell of a time getting one. I made the mistake of letting my license expire, and they wouldn't accept my birth certificate because I had a legal name change - even though I brought a copy of the court-ordered name change that showed both names. When I pressed the issue I was literally threatened by a police officer, who accused me of being an illegal immigrant. I was born and raised in New Jersey and I don't even speak Spanish...
So how do we in a better position help? Is there a way we can fund driver IDs? I live in a progressive, left wing area so my physical help like driving to the polls isn’t as important. How do I help in other states like Alabama?
To be honest with you, I don't know how anyone functions in the south without a driver's license. I live in a somewhat metropolitan suburb of Nashville. Walking to even the grocery would be a nightmare. You pretty much have to drive a vehicle if you live outside of a major city in the south.
Generally, when challenged in court states have had to remove a fee for a state ID that is not also a drivers license. So, most (non-DL) IDs are free. What Alabama did was to close many DMV offices in rural and black parts of the state making it harder for certain groups to physically get to the office to obtain an ID. How do you get to a DMV 20 miles away to get your ID when you don't have a drivers license to begin with?
I was thinking of a state ID when I replied, but the documents necessary to get a voter ID are not free, if you need to replace them. Also, in many places you may need to go to several locations just to get everything needed for a voter ID, which can be an issue.
I want as least restrictive environment possible to allow people to vote. Wide spread voter fraud is not out there or happening. No citizen should have to jump through any kind of hoops just to vote.
You replied to a comment asking how voter Id is a racist concept and works to suppress the black vote. Your response was basically saying they are poor so they can't afford it
I replied to a comment about how voter ID suppresses a person's ability to vote. All races have poor people, and any type of hurdle to voting will hurt poor people more.
I actually don't agree with the article above, the black vote definitely helped Jones, but there were other demographic shifts in this race that got him the election.
Not all black people are poor, however, poverty affects non-whites at a higher rate than it affects white people. It's not inherently racist as these laws also affect poor white people.
In more extreme scenarios, they've also studied which forms of ID black people use more than white people, and decided that those aren't acceptable forms of ID.
Utility bills and leases are often used to get the IDS which are privately issued as well. College IDs provide a proof of residence, in the same way utility bills do. There's no good reason to deny College IDs, but there are plenty of bad ones.
The purpose of the ID check isn't to establish proof of residency. (Passports and military IDs, for example, in no way establish residency.) The point is to establish citizenship, which all IDs issued by the TX DPS (DLs, state IDs, voter ID cards, and LTCs) do via a standardized mechanism, but student IDs do not.
The purpose of the ID check is to provide visual identification - it's a photo ID that is required, not a proof of citizenship nor proof of residency. The time to check for citizenship is when the voter registers, not at the polling location when already registered voters are trying to cast their ballot. Student IDs can serve as a visual identification just as well as a driver's license.
The time to check for citizenship is when the voter registers
But that isn't currently done, and it would just mean the same complications, but at registration time instead. So you'd need to provide ID twice (when you register, proving citizenship), and then (possibly different) ID again when you vote. That's not any better and arguably worse than Texas' desired solution which requires you to provide ID only at voting time.
Generally I agree on all things making it easier for ALL people to vote. However the other side might be right about college IDs. Many students are from out of state. Maybe things have changed since I went to school in the 80's but my college IDs said nothing of my home address or where I was a citizen.
I was (and am) a citizen of Illinois. I went to school in Iowa for two years then transferred closer to home, but in Missouri - still an "out of state" student.
I really think you're jumping to conclusions. There's over 100 public colleges in Texas and no centralized database that the state government has on these IDs, causing a lot of toil for poll workers to ensure the ID checks out. Plus, the only authentication tends to be either a social security number or student ID number on the magnetic stripe that could easily be faked with a $100 magstripe reader.
Voter suppression is awful and indefensible, but isn't a gun license state issued while a college ID has no real weight and no guarantee of validity when it's from a private institution?
I live in the Deep South and when I voted for the first time (2016 primary) I had lost my drivers license and used my university ID and it was fine. Not saying this is categorically true, just a little anecdote
In Texas those permits are managed by the same agency that manages driver's licenses and state photo IDs. That's why they're allowed. Meanwhile student IDs are not controlled by the state, and many don't even have an expiration date. (My wife's student ID issued by a Texas public university has no expiration date listed.) That's not unreasonable.
There are a lot of problems here but you have to also remember that there is a tremendous amount of diversity across the US. There are parts of the US that shame the entire country with their backwards laws, policies and overall attitudes. But try not to judge the entire country as being this way. Not to take away from the problem here(or problems elsewhere) but just remember how big and diverse a country we are.
It's definitely an issue of money, but due to the history (and current presence) of oppression and disenfranchisement of people of color, they statistically tend to have less money than white people.
But also, republicans have analyzed what types of IDs people of color were using to vote, and made those types of IDs not acceptable, so it's definitely also a white vs. black thing.
But this doesn't take into consideration that if you work 2 PT jobs, neither one would be required to give you time off, so you'd have to find time before, after, or between jobs.
Not to hijack your point, but there’s a beautiful little Indian film about exactly this - it’s called Newton, and as far as I know it’s available worldwide on Amazon Prime.
The context may be the Indian elections, but the film is entirely about how politicians go about making it super difficult for minorities to vote - including things like limiting the opening hours, the distances they have to travel, and a whole host of other things.
If you make voter ID obligatory and then remove paths to get voter ID specifically in areas where people you don’t like live, then you are targetting those people.
If I pass law saying everyone has to have identification to vote, and then go and remove ID offices in poorblackpeopleneighbourhood, tennnessee, so now they have to travel miles away to get ID, then I’m pretty obviously passing the voter ID law with the purpose of disenfranchising minorities.
Just because the people selling these laws want you to be blind to reality doesn’t mean you actually have to go along with it.
Lol you just contradicted yourself. As you say, the poor white people vote Republican, which is why Republicans don’t try to limit access for poor white people.
Idk if you know this, but poor blacks and poor whites tend not to live in the same neighbourhoods in the US.
We have voter ID in my country, it is mailed to you after your 18th birthday and you never have to ask for it again unless you lose it. From what I gather, Americans need to get a new one each time they want to vote
Close. American IDs expire every few years. You have to show your ID when you vote, which is a perfectly fine and reasonable requirement, but there are parts of the country where the only DMV (most likely place to get an ID, regardless of driver's license) within 100 miles is open every other Wednesday for 3-6 hours during the middle of the work day. For those knee-deep in poverty, this makes it nigh impossible to get an ID. This is the problem when people are discussing vote ID laws. If we mailed them in on your 18th birthday, voter ID would be a common-sense reality.
Voter ID in the US wouldn't be racist if everybody in every state were guaranteed free IDs on their 18th birthday, but the GOP has made it extremely hard for a lot of poor black folks in the south and elsewhere by limiting the DMV hours in majority-black areas or closing them completely, therefore limiting the ability for those black voters to even obtain an ID in the first place.
... For the reasons he just said? Voter ID laws aren't inherently racist, perse, but if you take that and then start limiting ways for majority black populations to even get an ID, such as closing branches or slashing hours at locations where predominantly black populations would get an ID, it does become racist. If the voter ID laws were coupled with automatic registration and free ID, or at least made it easier rather than superfluously harder, then it wouldn't be problem. But in America it's used as a thinly veiled hurdle to get fewer black people to vote
Because most cites in the US are still largely segregated with minorities generally living in the poorer neighborhoods. The system is set up in such a way that it's extremely difficult for people in poorer neighborhoods to get the same quality of education as those in more affluent ones.
It would be no issue if acquiring an ID were really easy. But to have to come back and forth to a location with long waits and weird hours gets pretty tricky if, for example, you don't have a car.
It's hard being poor in America. Rather than tearing down barriers preventing people from voting, many people actively build more barriers and hide them behind "common sense".
It's no surprise many poor people just don't do what it takes to overcome all those barriers. Hell, I probably wouldn't.
It's hard being poor in America. Rather than tearing down barriers preventing people from voting, many people actively build more barriers and hide them behind "common sense".
Sometimes I think it's less common sense and more ignorance. The idea that "voter fraud bad, voter ID good" is a reasonable position on the surface. Most of middle America drives, and so they have a valid DL, so the idea of not needing to have one is really foreign to them.
Notwithstanding republican party leadership that actively try and make it more difficult for poor blacks to get IDs and vote, I doubt the rank and file republicans out there have any idea a) why someone wouldn't be in possession of a valid ID in the first place, or b) how difficult it is for poorer people who don't have one to jump through the hoops to get it.
It would be no issue if acquiring an ID were really easy. But to have to come back and forth to a location with long waits and weird hours gets pretty tricky if, for example, you don't have a car.
"Fun" fact, unless it's been very recently changed, in my town the bus doesn't even go to where the DMV is. And we're lucky enough to actually have one in town instead of having to go hours out of the way.
It's because their voter ID laws are designed to actually identify voters, not to suppress them.
Canadian voter ID laws, which I'm most familiar with, allow a much wider range of identifying documents to be used (including things like bus passes, utility bills, library cards, and income tax assessments), and even have provisions for people without any ID to vote, while the stereotypical American voter ID law only allows driver's licenses as valid ID.
TLDR: Free and automatic reception of valid IDs, more total forms of IDs accepted, forms of ID specifically for the poor, elderly and student demographics are valid.
Other developed country also provide photo ID for things other than driver licenses. The only US ID that is consistent across everything is a passport, which a large number of US citizens don't have and the poor can't afford. (It's around $110 USD for a passport) The issue with voter id isn't the laws the themselves, it's that it's hard to get the IDs to vote.
Here in the UK, you just need your national insurance number (our social security number) and home address here, no ID required. You could do this too!
We already register for our local polling place and have to provide an address, weeks or even months before the election. It's so unlikely that someone is going to know your name, your address, your polling place, whether you've already voted, and whether the neighborhood lady running the place will recognize you that it's practically impossible for anyone to cast a fraudulent vote under someone else's name, even without a driver license. It might actually be easier for someone to commit voter fraud with a stolen ID since it already has most of the info you need on it...
Social security numbers in the US were specifically designed to NOT be a form of ID. They are not unique numbers and it is not required for every American even to have one (though the number who don't have one these days is extremely small.) But requiring a home address would also stop a lot of people from being able to vote.
They absolutely are unique numbers, that's the point. And a NIN is also not specifically legal ID, it says so right there on the card, but it does work with government systems quite nicely.
The UK allows for people to put hospitals, care homes, halfway houses and shelters as "homes" for the purposes of voting and you can "declare a local connection" if you don't spend any significant time in one place. Couldn't that work in the US?
US social security numbers are NOT unique, there are people with the same number as one another and even people with the same NAME AND number as each other. Here is an informative video on them.
Love that vid, seen it before. Please source how SSNs are not unique, I can't find anything that's not related to fraud. The whole concept seems broken if they're not, it literally tracks your pension!
Edit: Seriously, CGP Grey says they're "unique" twice in the first 30 seconds of the vid you linked me to.
That's the stunning conclusion of a San Diego company's analysis of 290 million Social Security numbers, which found that 40 million of them have been attached to more than one name. The study, conducted by the fraud-fighting firm ID Analytics, is the first of its kind that's been made available to the public.
Fraud isn't unique the US, we have it too but that doesn't feed into voter fraud (if that's what you're suggesting).
Voter fraud is not currently an issue in your country and I doubt it would become one overnight if you used SS numbers as voter ID. Stealing SS numbers will remain profitable, no matter what their relevance is to voting.
The devil is in the details. It's racist because Republicans write the laws so that the only forms of ID accepted are coincidentally the forms black people use the least.
because in other countries they don't make it more difficult for black people to get ID and/or use said ID. Read the ACLU link I posted. Or don't, idc.
IDs are exactly what you get. But in America, it's the responsibility of the individual to go get one, not have one mailed by the county/state. There are some parts of the country where the only DMV (most likely place to get an ID, regardless of driver's license) within 100 miles is open every other Wednesday for 3-6 hours during the middle of the work day. For those knee-deep in poverty, this makes it nigh impossible to get an ID.
And IDs expire in America so this is not a one-time thing.
I don't understand why they have to get off work to get an ID?
The places you can get an ID are typically open from ~9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Some places (like my local DMV) is open less or more on some days (3 p.m. on Friday, 7 p.m. on Wednesday). If you live paycheck-to-paycheck, it becomes rather expensive to take the necessary time off to not only drive to where ever your DMV is, but to also wait the hours in line to even see someone about getting an ID.
Do they not always have and ID on them?
If you don't have a car and don't drive, you don't need a driver's license. Most Americans aren't near a border or have the funds to travel overseas, so passports are also out. In those cases, you would not necessarily have an ID on you.
What is this ID exactly?
Most common would be a driver's license, but there are other state IDs. Some places used to allow voters to use state school IDs, but a lot of voter ID laws stopped that or required you to have another form of ID as confirmation. Voter ID laws also place additional requirements like having your birth certificate to get an actual voting ID. Getting a birth certificate can be difficult if you or your parents lost it, if you aren't sure where exactly you were born, if the hospital you were born in went bankrupt or merged into a larger hospital network, or even something as simple as your birth certificate having a typo on it. For example, my first name has a non-standard spelling. Luckily, my birth certificate matches, but others like me could have had someone "correct" their birth certificate or a copy of it and thus been using technically incorrect IDs their entire life.
Ok, so there is no ID card that everybody has and carries everywhere?
In Europe it's like this, so while you have voter ID laws, everybody always has his ID card on him, so you don't have to do anything in particular when going to vote, just make sure you carry your card with you as always.
Ok, so there is no ID card that everybody has and carries everywhere?
Correct. The closet we get to that as Americans is having either a driver's license or student ID. Unfortunately, not everyone has the former for reasons I described above. There's also an issue with some state driver's licenses don't meet federal guidelines with air travel, but I don't think that would necessarily disqualify them from being used for voting (at least, not yet). For student IDs, there are states where they do not count despite being a state-issued ID, and there is the larger issue that "student" is a much smaller portion of the population, so they would therefore be much less common.
So the answer to the question "I don't understand why its only racist in the USA and not Europe" is "Because black in the US don't have ID" right?
It seems crazy to me... how do you even keep yourself organised like this. What if someone not from the US pretends he was born there? He only needs a birth certificate? Are these secure?
So the answer to the question "I don't understand why its only racist in the USA and not Europe" is "Because black in the US don't have ID" right?
It's more that black people in the US are less likely to have an ID, have less funds to get ID due to numerous socioeconomic factors, and/or less likely to have the necessary background information to get the above for any number of reasons.
It seems crazy to me... how do you even keep yourself organised like this. What if someone not from the US pretends he was born there? He only needs a birth certificate? Are these secure?
Simply put, you don't keep yourself organized. You either get lucky and have enough records stored away with your parents and are able to get what you need, have the funds to get a copy of what you need, or live in a state with less draconian laws. People have illegally sold social security cards and numbers before to immigrants, but those people aren't likely to vote fraudulently due to their limited funds and unnecessary risk associated with doing so. Immigrants who have become American citizens and are thus able to legally vote instead have a massive trail of paperwork from the immigration process to show they are indeed American citizens.
As other users have posted in this thread, no, you sometimes need much more than your birth certificate to get the necessary ID or even the ID to get the ID. Utility bills, other proof of residency, and even pay stubs could all come into play. The birth certificates themselves should be secure. Yes, people could theoretically forge them, but the benefits are next to nonexistent and the risks associated with them are severe.
I don't know how it works in your country but in America you have to go to the DMV to get an ID. Going to the DMV is a huge hassle and most of them are only open Monday thru Friday during normal working hours.
It's also important to note the United States has no form of national identification at all (besides Social Security, but that can't be used as an ID). Every State has an ID but they each handle the distribution themselves and the laws and distribution are different in each state
If an ID isn't required, how would you differentiate between a citizen and a tourist/illegal immigrant/any non-citizen?
We register to vote beforehand. If someone tried to show up at my polling place and vote under my registration, they would have to know my name and address, and they would get caught because I would also be there or had been there earlier. And the little old lady running the polling station probably recognizes me from the grocery store or something. The massively decentralized elections in this country make it almost impossible to get away with voting as someone else.
i mean, you can ignore the plain facts that show that these laws disproportionately affect minorities if you want.
you can argue that requiring ID is fine, which tbh I don't disagree with, but you also have to be aware of how the real world works and acknowledge the fact that authorities abuse these laws to make it more difficult for certain groups of people to vote. why should some people have an easier time voting than others?
idc either way, im not american and idgaf if americans want to live in a less democratic society. it's just fun to watch from the outside.
So "inconvenient sign-ups times" aren't intrinsic to voter ID laws.
Could just make them tied to a background check when you get a driver's license, or any other easy sign-ups. What's wring with then in that case? That's the question.
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u/skapade Dec 13 '17 edited Dec 13 '17
they limit the opening hours of facilities in poor areas, as well as reducing the amount of locations, so that poor people have to travel farther and at more inconvenient times than people in affluent areas. and affluent people can more easily afford to take a few hours off work to go get an ID than a poor person can to start off with.
https://www.google.se/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/517218/
https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet
there's like a billion articles about it, just saying