Also to expand, it can be the cost of the ID itself. If you don't drive, and are living paycheck to paycheck, its hard sometimes to work in the cost of a state ID. This is especially true of the poor elderly, who are on fixed incomes, and are reliant on someone to get them to and from the proper facility to get a state ID.
Edit: I expanded that cost can be a factor in voter ID and its harmful impact on POOR people and their ability to vote. Its not about race, but a person's economic status. In our country most people have a legal form of ID one way or another, but for some any cost, whether its the cost of the ID, the cost to take time off, or the cost to get to a physical location is a real issue.
More importantly, if you don't have a current valid ID, you need to jump through incredible hoops to get it. You need proof of residence. What if you're living with a relative because times are hard? Two utility bills in your name, which can be hard to do with shitty credit. Then a birth certificate. Again, might be cost prohibitive, or it can be time consuming to get it. You may have lost it in a move - again, affects low income families more. And the list goes on.
Getting that type of shit when you're only 18 is ridiculous. Hell, I needed two pieces of mail just to get a library card.
What pisses me off is that we can't just use our voter registration cards. Also, why can we only register to vote at the DMV? My local polling place is the public library. Why can't I register to vote there? When I want to vote early, I go to the Board of Elections. Why can't I register to vote there? I hate the DMV. It's full of unhappy impatient people like me.
I went to the Social Security office recently to get a new card. I could have done it online, but sometimes physical proceedings make me feel more confident that the job is getting done. Just to fill out the form and get someone to accept my form took two and a half hours. I can't imagine what it might have been like if I came in not knowing what documents I might need. Then I waited two weeks to get my card. These things take time and knowledge that some people don't have.
You are making a lot of assumptions and moral judgments. You would be surprised by how successful people are at getting by without an ID. Many low wage employers are willing to hire people without IDs. Usually people without ID are in a bad spot financially, so renting is out of the question anyway. Family and friends don’t require ID to let you stay with them. They can also cash checks for you.
Second, as has been pointed out, getting an ID after a long period without one involved a lot of hoop jumping. How much time do you think someone working 60+ hours a week has to stand in line at a government agency during business hours? Do you think they have time to go to the library during business hours to fill out online paperwork?
While you haven’t directly said it, your comments make it clear that you feel morally superior because you were able to jump through the hoops and that people who don’t just don’t want it bad enough. Your experiences in life aren’t universal, and some people spend every waking moment trying to survive. They deserve just as much say in our democracy as everyone else, especially because they are so vulnerable to heartless and careless legislation.
THIS. Does it fucking matter if you need an ID to do five million other things or that you have many other things to worry about in your life? No, voting is a constitutional right. End stop.
The fact of the matter is 1) voter ID laws have been shown to disenfranchise vulnerable populations 2) widespread voter fraud has never actually been found and 3) VOTING IS A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT AND LITERALLY A TENET OUR COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ON.
All you need for a job is a social security number. I definitely don't carry my card around, but when applying for a job, I just write down the number.
It took my roommate six months to get his updated (21+) drivers license, the old one was no good, the new one got mailed to the wrong adress, and his parents couldn't find his birth cirtificat. No bills in his name and we'd just moved to a new spot so proof of address took forever.
A lot of women have issues because when they get married, their last name no longer matches their birth certificate. And then you realize there are cases not that long ago where people gave birth at home and the regulations on recording those births were lax: example
The state must offer a form of voter ID that itself is free, otherwise it's considered an unconstitutional poll tax. But the documents required to get the ID might not be free.
Woah, I had no idea states are allowed to charge for voter IDs. How is that not the same thing as a poll tax?! My disgust for these laws just intensified.
Most if not all states have free voter IDs, but many of them don't advertise it, so if you don't know where to look you'll never find it. They can also require supporting documentation that can be costly, inconvenient, or impossible to obtain.
Not only is it unfair to poor people, but impoverished Americans, statistically, are more likely to be African American. While we have made great strides against prejudice in our society, it is unfair and untrue to say it doesn't still exist.
Or the classic sure you can technically get voter ID. All you have to do is go in state capital, visit this obscure single office, that is only open in office hours. You need to will this exhaustive application in triplicate and leave all relevant attachments. If even single attachment is missing refile completely. Oh and yeah some of those identity proof documents cost money. If there is enough malicious will, there is a way.
However there is some non malicious basic systemic probblems. Frankly the solution to this is comprehensive real time population registry eliminating need to separately track voters combined with universally issued resident ID cards. Person has their ID and then they just keep their residency information up to date with the registry.
Since there is the real issue of determining voter eligibility and preventing voter impersonation. However pretty sure by the word comprehensive registry large portion of USA population started warding against ultimate evil rituals.
The base issue is USA has trouble identifying and maintaining the residency information of people in general. Which isn't problem in case of picket fence family having car and not moving a lot, but in case of people living more nomadic life with less resources this is a real problem. It isn't only about who the person is but for example their home address/town effects ones voting district etc.
Some states now have voter IDs, but states that still have state IDs its around $10 or so. The documents needed to get a voter ID can cost a person, and require a decent amount of time.
Generally, when challenged in court states have had to remove a fee for a state ID that is not also a drivers license. So, most (non-DL) IDs are free. What Alabama did was to close many DMV offices in rural and black parts of the state making it harder for certain groups to physically get to the office to obtain an ID. How do you get to a DMV 20 miles away to get your ID when you don't have a drivers license to begin with?
Even if they're free, sometimes the documents to get the free ID aren't free. You have to pay to get a copy of your birth certificate. If you don't have your original social security card, you gotta pay to get that too.
I'm glad you stayed and it is harder for people who are poor and poor does not equal skin color but anyone who is on a low income paycheck to paycheck could be affected by voter ID laws no matter your skin color no matter your beliefs, if you don't have the money it's harder to vote.
Which in America seems unfathomable, just saying since they think themselves the nation to spread democracy to other nations and yet it makes it harder for their own people to vote.
I have a habit of losing my ID and have to pay 25-50 $ every time. If it was a requirement to vote in my state I wouls not have been able to vote in november. We live paycheck to paycheck and I didnt want to spend food money for a friggin id. I know who I am.
Just spent $220 to renew my and my wife's passports. Plus the post office only does them between 10am-3pm during the week and Saturdays but they say you have to have an appointment and Saturdays are always booked.
just looked it up. here in sweden, you either need to be knows to the person working at the voting booth, or you need to show ID, or you need someone to vouch for you and then they will show their ID
we can however vote beforehand if you cant make it to the voting booth on the day, iirc you have three weeks to send in your vote
Because people are already paranoid about the government as it is. Instead our national ID is a weak set of numbers we call a Social Security Number. Honestly for personal protection this is an issue that should be addressed in our country.
Exactly though since those are the federal countries. The USA is the federal country that doesn't have an ID. ID's in the USA come from states. So visiting other states like Massachusetts one's ID from California can be denied for things like buying alcohol.
It's complicated. For one, states have historically been very important here. In the past, the federal government arguably had even less power than the EU has over it's member states. Additionally, there is a lot of mistrust of the federal government. People don't want the government to issue a national ID. State governments actively sabotage the federal government's attempts to establish even a basic level of uniformity between state IDs.
Not having a national ID causes a host of problems. Some of them are so bizarre that unless you lived here you wouldn't believe me. Even more bizarre is that Americans generally don't understand how bizarre these issues are and that they don't exist in other countries.
In Mexico we all have a voter ID, you can't really do any kind of paperwork without that ID (heck, you can't even get into a nightclub without it), so people get it as soon as they turn 18. It's completely free, appointments to get it are usually very accommodating (like, offices are open way past office hours and there are many on each site), and it is the same at the federal level. When voting, the people at the voting booth have a booklet containing the pictures of all IDs registered at that sector, and they have too look you up there with your ID so you can vote.
Of course, this being the USA, a system like that would be probably opposed on grounds of "my freedom not to pay for a better voting system!".
Thats fucked up man. From India here. We got a billion people. We have a separate voting ID card that is mandatory for every adult citizen. We don't have separate timings for polling booths in different areas rich or poor. Plus our election is overseen by the Election Commission which is a constitutionally independent organisation, that has the powers to:
Remove personnels from the executive, judiciary and legislative branches of the sitting government if it believes that personnel is a hindrance to free and fair elections.
For a period before election to election date, the entire administrative and security functionality becomes the responsibility of the Election Commission. None of the appointed and elected members of the government during this period can do any thing without authorisation from the Election Commission.
The commission can also kill bills that are designed to cause voter suppression.
The EC also does keeps organising camps very very frequently in schools, colleges, community centers etc where people can go and get their voter ID card made for free.
In Canada we do similar with voting times. All polling booths are open for the same hours ( Usually 8 am to 8 pm ) on voting day. Booths are placed based on population size and accessibility. Often small isolated areas will have their own voting places even if there's only 50 people living there.
To vote, all we require is you prove your identity and address. This can be done by photo ID with address on it, government issued health card and a piece of mail showing your current residence, or my a vouching system which allows an individual who can prove where they live and who they are to vouch for another person, essentially swearing that this person is who who they say they are and they they live at this address. Homeless people can vote by obtaining a document from a shelter they may frequent. We register people on voting day at the polls as well. No need to pre-register.
It's just another problem to keep people who don't vote from starting to vote. Every single hurdle is to make it seem like it's not worth your time and effort, to compound on the initial assumption that your input isn't relevant. If it was completely simple and easy, you would just go out and vote, and they don't want that.
But I have a serious question though. Do poor people in disenfranchised areas not have a drivers license, or other forms of state ID? An example would be a MA liquor ID card. I know what you guys are saying about taking time off of work, travel, and everything makes sense if your in a vacuum. However, you need an ID to buy liquor, rent a hotel room, for starting a new job, and a whole host of other things. I really don’t see what’s wrong with requiring an ID to vote if all of the above (and a lot more) do require it, and they’re minor in implications compared to voting?
I look at it from a different perspective, similar to those who view the 2nd amendment as sacred and unquestionable. There shouldn't be any hurdles in voting, and results should be checked carefully afterwards. Requiring a card and other ID does put a burden, and I am against any kind when it comes to this civic duty.
But in order to buy a gun, you must pass a background check, and be issued a license. I don't agree with a "background check" for obtaining an ID for voting, but I also don't think that it is some kind of big, evil conspiracy to keep people down either.
As I said in my original post; if hotels are more stringent than voting, I think something might be wrong with the system. Although, if you were to put in a full nationwide voter ID law, the card should be free to obtain, and they should have pop-up shops from each state to go into the more rural areas. Just my thoughts though, but I am just some guy on the internet lol.
There are numerous ways to get around background checks for guns, and you have the NRA trying to keep it that way. I am for least restrictive participation in our democratic process for all citizens. If you look at most reasonable measures, its nearly impossible for individuals to manipulate the system in a significant ways. The issue becomes higher up the chain where they can throw thousands of votes away, or manipulate results in other manners.
I would have less of a problem if they adequately allowed all citizens the opportunity to obtain ID cards, by having all members of the population covered, at times that are convenient to them. I also want the cost to obtain to be low, by making it cheaper for person to get the necessary documents they need.
That's what I was saying about the pop-up shops. They should have the state(s) come to the people, even if it's off-work hours or on the weekends. They could make it work if they actually tried.
I think a key part of voter ID laws aren't just about requiring an ID. There's also the element where you make the ID more difficult for the targeted group to obtain.
They mentioned on Monday's Pod Save America that Alabama has been systematically closing DMVs for a few year, and there now isn't a single DMV in a majority black county. That means if you're an African American working a minimum wage job and you walk/take public transportation to work (not sure how substantial public transport is in rural Alabama) then you need to somehow arrange time off, and transportation at least one county over just to get an ID.
Taking a taxi could be prohibitively expensive. Getting a ride from a friend or family member could mean another person taking time off from a minimum wage job. It's not impossible, but it is a lot more difficult than say a suburban professional who can plan out a few hours one day to zip over to the local DMV and has their own reliable transportation.
Do poor people in disenfranchised areas not have a drivers license, or other forms of state ID?
Correct, they frequently don't.
Also, someone else mentioned something I think is worth mentioning - a lot of the voter ID laws are based on requiring specific pieces of ID that cater to the groups they're trying to cater to. Like gun licenses being acceptable but college IDs, not so much. So it's possible that I might have a liquor ID card (which requires plenty of background documentation to get) but that's not good enough to vote with - I need a state ID for that.
Well, I know in MA it's technically illegal to walk around without an ID. How enforceable that is - is beyond me, and only makes your life difficult should you get in trouble.
College ID's don't mean anything, even here in MA. That's specific to the college. I just can't wrap my head around how some people don't have an ID, or a drivers license - especially in a place as rural as Alabama. Maybe in MA where we have the T that may not be the case, I just can't fathom it. Then again - I don't live there, and I don't see what it would actually take to get a license/ID card etc; from them.
in MA it's technically illegal to walk around without an ID.
Are you sure about that? I moved from MA a couple of years ago, and I've never heard that before. I can't find anything about it in a couple of minutes of searching. Closest thing I can find are "Stop and Identify" laws, which make it necessary to identify yourself to police, but only if you're suspected of committing a crime.
For what it's worth, I'm with you - I can't imagine not having an ID. But that's kind of the point. Just because you can I couldn't do without it doesn't mean that other people don't, and laws should be structured with them in mind just as much.
That's what I am talking about (the Stop and Identify law). It's one of those grey areas. They're not going to go around searching random people, but you will need to have one in case you are questioned. As always - you shouldn't put yourself in that position in the first place to be questioned by police.
Unlike other states, Massachusetts does not have a "stop and identify" law (a law that allows police to arrest a person, who they reasonably believe is involved in criminal activity, for refusing to identify themselves).
No you need to prove you are of legal age. Usually this means a driver's license. If you don't have a driver's license you can get an official state ID. In Maine it looks like a driver's license but it's just proof of identity. In Massachusetts the official ID is called a Massachusetts Driver's License.
I live in Texas and you're supposed to have a license to buy liquor. They don't check at many places, especially if you are well over 30. I think it's dumb to require checks for people that are obviously not underage so I don't complain.
So yeah, you can definitely buy liquor at places that don't care (poor parts of town). You can definitely rent a hotel room without an ID (poor parts of town). You can definitely start a new job as a cash only hire (poor parts of town and contractors).
It's absolutely possible to live in this day and age without state ID. It's not great, and you won't live well, but that's kind of the point. These laws don't affect middle class people with cars and insurance and credit cards.
Free and available? Because cost is only one roadblock that's put up. If there's no nearby facilities available to get one, or they're only open during weekday business hours when most people are working, then making IDs free wouldn't change the situation enough to change my opinion.
Free and readily available I could maybe be okay with, but I'm still not convinced. I could be wrong but I don't think there's evidence that voter fraud is a big enough issue that voter ID is necessary to combat it.
Don't you think it would be easier to detect voter fraud if proper ID was required?
Getting an ID is really simple. You just have to wait in a long line.
Should we pass laws that make it mandatory for employees to have the opportunity to gain identification?
I think there are ways to make this practical. When I got out the navy, I was making 300 dollars in a week in San Diego. An extremely high cost of living. I managed to make it happen.
I am white, so potentially that made it easier. I do feel like the clerks at the DMV hated me like they hate everyone else.
"You just have to wait in a long line" is underselling it. If there's no DMV within 50 miles of you, and the closest one is only open 11-4, four weekdays a week, it's an unreasonable burden.
I've struggled to make ends meet, too. Many of us have. The point isn't that some people can make it happen, it's that we shouldn't have to. Voting's supposed to be sacrosanct in America.
I don't understand what you're saying about mandatory opportunities to gain identification, I'm sorry.
Wait, wasn't Trumps strong base of supporters in Rural Areas in BumfuckEgypt? I haven't surveyed the country to extreme amounts to know, but I thought minorities were a lot more dense in large cities.
What I meant was making it an obligation for your employer to give you time off on the weekdays to get an ID the same way we currently are allowed to have time off to vote.
if they were free it would still be wrong. My right to vote is not based on if I have a job that lets me take off between 8 and 5 to wait in line for an hour to get an ID card. Its an undue hardship on poor people to discourage their voting fix a problem (voter fraud) that doesnt meaningfully exist.
My right to vote is not based on if I have a job that lets me take off between 8 and 5 to wait in line for an hour to get an ID card
It's based on being a citizen of the US that isn't a felon, basically. And how would we know you are a citizen of the US? If a tourist comes over on an election day, what's to say they couldn't vote?
But even so, if any of your paperwork is missing or out of date you might have a hell of a time getting one. I made the mistake of letting my license expire, and they wouldn't accept my birth certificate because I had a legal name change - even though I brought a copy of the court-ordered name change that showed both names. When I pressed the issue I was literally threatened by a police officer, who accused me of being an illegal immigrant. I was born and raised in New Jersey and I don't even speak Spanish...
So how do we in a better position help? Is there a way we can fund driver IDs? I live in a progressive, left wing area so my physical help like driving to the polls isn’t as important. How do I help in other states like Alabama?
To be honest with you, I don't know how anyone functions in the south without a driver's license. I live in a somewhat metropolitan suburb of Nashville. Walking to even the grocery would be a nightmare. You pretty much have to drive a vehicle if you live outside of a major city in the south.
Generally, when challenged in court states have had to remove a fee for a state ID that is not also a drivers license. So, most (non-DL) IDs are free. What Alabama did was to close many DMV offices in rural and black parts of the state making it harder for certain groups to physically get to the office to obtain an ID. How do you get to a DMV 20 miles away to get your ID when you don't have a drivers license to begin with?
I was thinking of a state ID when I replied, but the documents necessary to get a voter ID are not free, if you need to replace them. Also, in many places you may need to go to several locations just to get everything needed for a voter ID, which can be an issue.
I want as least restrictive environment possible to allow people to vote. Wide spread voter fraud is not out there or happening. No citizen should have to jump through any kind of hoops just to vote.
You replied to a comment asking how voter Id is a racist concept and works to suppress the black vote. Your response was basically saying they are poor so they can't afford it
I replied to a comment about how voter ID suppresses a person's ability to vote. All races have poor people, and any type of hurdle to voting will hurt poor people more.
I actually don't agree with the article above, the black vote definitely helped Jones, but there were other demographic shifts in this race that got him the election.
Not all black people are poor, however, poverty affects non-whites at a higher rate than it affects white people. It's not inherently racist as these laws also affect poor white people.
Well the elderly shouldn't be voting on things that they won't be here to see happen, but that's another conversation.
Be careful, that's a very dangerous road to go down.
If you accept that, why should poor people have the right to vote? They won't be net contributors to taxes. Why should non-property owners? Why should non-military service members?
If someone is working pay check to pay check, you best believe they have an ID, how else would they cash their check? You might say direct deposit but if you are living pay check to check, you aren't using direct deposit cause odds are your account is overdrawn and you might need all the cash that week, can't afford to pay debt, only way to get that cashed at Walmart is with an ID.
That's a pretty massive assumption, but also IDs expire, people move (i.e.: if the address on your ID is different than the address you currently live at you can be prevented from voting but you'll still be able to cash checks), etc.
It would really be better for you to look into why people make these arguments instead of dismissing them while being totally unaware of what you're arguing against.
Edit: also note that the argument isn't that a crazy high percentage of poor voters are being barred from voting, but keep in mind with how close elections are how even a few percentage points can swing the election. Plus while people are sorting out their ID issues lineups pile up and it increases the cost of voting even for other people who have their IDs. Check out what voting looks like in a poor neighborhood vs an affluent suburb.
If you think every check cashing place checks ID, I have ocean front property in Iowa to sell you. Second, the elderly should be allowed to vote, why would it be ok to discriminate based on age?
Uh, no. I live paycheck to paycheck and had to put off getting a new ID for months after mine was stolen because of time and money. Still had direct deposit.
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u/deadbedroomaddict Dec 13 '17 edited Dec 13 '17
Also to expand, it can be the cost of the ID itself. If you don't drive, and are living paycheck to paycheck, its hard sometimes to work in the cost of a state ID. This is especially true of the poor elderly, who are on fixed incomes, and are reliant on someone to get them to and from the proper facility to get a state ID.
Edit: I expanded that cost can be a factor in voter ID and its harmful impact on POOR people and their ability to vote. Its not about race, but a person's economic status. In our country most people have a legal form of ID one way or another, but for some any cost, whether its the cost of the ID, the cost to take time off, or the cost to get to a physical location is a real issue.