r/politics • u/slaysia • Dec 19 '17

Democrat wins Va. House seat in recount by single vote; creating 50-50 tie in legislature

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/democrat-wins-va-house-seat-in-recount-by-single-vote-creating-50-50-tie-in-legislature/2017/12/19/3ff227ae-e43e-11e7-ab50-621fe0588340_story.html?utm_term=.82f2b85b50fa
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477

u/puckerings Dec 19 '17

It's easy to be libertarian when you don't have to worry about whether you'll be able to feed your family next week.

176

u/Cultjam Dec 20 '17

It’s easy to be libertarian if you don’t know what lack of government regulation is like. Look into why savings & loan institutions don’t exist anymore.

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u/cookie-cutter Dec 20 '17

Any one who believes in a hands-off government missed the finer points of Aliens and RoboCop

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u/Cultjam Dec 20 '17

Oh yeah, Avatar too.

5

u/[deleted] Dec 20 '17

You are my kind of person.

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u/Lord_Blathoxi I voted Dec 20 '17

Look at Somalia and that’s what a Libertarian Paradise would be.

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u/preprandial_joint Dec 20 '17

Ironically, Matt and Trey addressed this in a roundabout way with the pirate episode. All the kids want to be pirates, I presume because Pirates of the Caribean came out around that time, so they go off to where real pirates are, Somalia. When they get there they realize pretty quickly that it fucking sucks being a pirate in a country with virtually no government.

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u/Cronyx Dec 20 '17

Blood in the street, gated communities and private security companies.

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u/VC_Wolffe Dec 25 '17

they have a government now, by the way

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u/sushkunes Dec 20 '17

Because evil Potter bought them all during the recession. Damnit, George.

4

u/DFWV Dec 20 '17

No, George was a Weasely.

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u/Quivis Dec 19 '17

Libertarian even when I was paycheck to paycheck. Nobody owes me anything.

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u/caishenlaidao Dec 20 '17

Yeah, but how much more efficient are you when provided with tools to accomplish things? How much more do you spend (increasing the demand for local business products).

You getting social benefits is beneficial to us all.

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u/Quivis Dec 20 '17

I am curious about that. How does me receiving a handout benefit everyone? Surely SOMEONE doesn't benefit from it otherwise it wouldn't be sustainable.

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u/caishenlaidao Dec 20 '17

Why wouldn't it be sustainable? Economies aren't a fixed pie - that's a fallacious understanding of economics (that is unfortunately very common).

In economics, correct social programs lead to a cake and eat it too scenario, at least in the long-term.

High demand grows an economy.

I am working right now, but I can provide examples later on if you'd like.

0

u/Quivis Dec 20 '17

Absolutely, and you very wisely inserted the word "CORRECT" into your assessment of social programs. The word is very subjective, but for the sake of playing along I agree, however the efficiency and overall purpose of these programs is rarely to rehabilitate an individual back into society. Rather, they are handled on a short term basis without real assimilation back into the functioning society.

Still, I am interested to look at your examples! It's good for these conversations to happen regardless of our views!

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u/mrfuzzyasshole Dec 20 '17

Complains programs cost too much. Then complains they don’t do enough.

One of these thoughts has to go in the trash my friend because that’s like a whole mother level of cognitive dissonance I’m not even sure if YOU agree with you.

0

u/Quivis Dec 20 '17

If your car is broken and your repairman continues to fail in fixing it, do you just keep giving him more money expecting a different outcome?

Honest question.

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u/cthom412 Florida Dec 20 '17

If your repairman needs $500 to buy the part to fix your car and you only give him $250 is it really his fault when he fails to fix it?

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u/mrfuzzyasshole Dec 20 '17

Exactly conservatives love to gut programs that doesn’t benefit their rich donors and then say it see look it doesn’t work. See healthcare

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u/Quivis Dec 21 '17

Wait why is he taking my $250 if he knows it costs $500?

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u/Infinity2quared Dec 20 '17

You are right to point out that social programs should have an eye towards increasing total social productivity.

However, I would argue that the reason that many social programs are just focused on maintaining people is that there isn't the funding or the will to do more. To take the extra step and spend the extra cash on something that isn't strictly necessary, but which can grow into something better.

I too await his examples.

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u/VsAcesoVer California Dec 20 '17

I'd be pretty mad at, say, my hand if it were like "no no, I don't need blood, no other body part owes me anything". You don't get to be not linked to everyone else, and when a society identifies things that benefit everyone individually AND as a system (like education and healthcare), they implement it. "Nobody owes me anything"? No no, you owe everyone else to do meaningful work, stay healthy, and learn, because you're already standing on the shoulders of all the humans that came before.

Sry to rant; I've been thinking about that lately and really it was addressed to the libertarian philosophy, not you as a person. I'm sure you're great.

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u/[deleted] Dec 19 '17 edited Feb 28 '18

[deleted]

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u/Quivis Dec 19 '17

Nice retort!

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u/letshaveateaparty Dec 20 '17

It was pretty spot-on.

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u/Quivis Dec 20 '17

No substance of an argument. I would love to discuss the reasons why I am an idiot based on nobody owing me anything.

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u/veralibertas Dec 20 '17

I'm poor and libertarian because it's right. The non-aggression principle is ethical regardless of my economic situation. .

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u/Quivis Dec 20 '17

You have my upvote, but prepare for the /r/politics brigade my friend...

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u/veralibertas Dec 20 '17

Oh hell, I didn't realise I was in /r/politics. Well I guess I'll give some backstory to hopefully forestall the reasonable (though I have no hope for the crazy). I was formerly a United States Marine serving in the intelligence field. I became a libertarian towards the end of my enlistment. After my enlistment I was an active member of the Ron Paul 2012 campaign. I became a libertarian because of my opposition to violence. I have not to this date heard or read a convincing reason why groups of people are allowed to use aggression while individuals are not.

Hope that helps.

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u/Quivis Dec 20 '17

Thank you for your service, friend. I and many others are by your side.

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u/hyeondrugs Dec 20 '17

Most people just expect handouts nowadays, contrary to the way things have always been.

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u/GlibTurret Dec 20 '17 edited Dec 20 '17

What exactly do you mean by "the way things have always been"?

In the American colonies, the right to charter a town included an obligation of care. Meaning that your town needed to provide for all of its citizens. Meaning that the town council had to make sure everyone had shelter, food and clothing. This early American social safety net started falling apart as industrialization caused people to move to cities and settle new land in the west. Towns didn't extend these protections to people who moved in later or to immigrants.

The ancient Romans had subsidized wheat, olive oil, bread and pork for poor people. They also had limits on the amount of land one person could own.

I find people who rely on arguments about "the way things have always been" don't generally have a great understanding of history. Things change all the time. Societies have tried out many different models, and we can learn from all of them. The social safety net is not new.

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u/hyeondrugs Dec 20 '17 edited Dec 20 '17

I love the lack of sources for such outrageous claims, in reality no one was given free shit as you claimed. At best you are describing what is your idealistic view on history, at worst you are outright lying knowing full well you are wrong. You are only worth as much as you contribute and that IS in fact the way things have always been. Now we have unprecedented means for just about everything but that doesn't somehow entitle you to it, especially when that thing is available because of someone else's hard work. Please do tell me more about Rome's compassion towards the poor, that's one of the most absurd things I've heard anyone claim about the past.

As for the colonies(not just American ones), obviously they were run in this manner because the whole thing was paid for by each respective monarch who invested their money to see a return in the future from a prospering colony. I mean why the hell would anyone travel across the ocean to arrive at a completely foreign land with no existing civilization besides what they were establishing.

Edit: addressed colonies

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u/GlibTurret Dec 20 '17 edited Dec 20 '17

Oh! I can play this game too!

You are only worth as much as you contribute and that IS in fact the way things have always been.

Source please?

But seriously, folks... Two seconds on Wikipedia gets you info on subsidized bread (and other stuff) in Rome:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cura_Annonae

It's very well documented by ancient and modern scholars. There are about a bajillion books and scholarly articles on the subject. The Roman welfare state is like the first thing you study in poly sci/economics/philosophy because it provides such a useful and divisive model for a society. The relationship between welfare, plutocracy and slavery was largely responsible for the downfall of the Republic.

As for reasons to found colonies in the Americas... Religion springs to mind. Regardless of the reason though, those societies made a judgment that caring for their poor was a net benefit. They were not the first societies to do so, and won't be the last.

Human history isn't a straight line. It's a series of loops. We've tried pretty much everything. You just have to be a little curious to find accounts of it. Change is the only constant. Any time anyone says "x has always been y", it's a pretty safe bet they're wrong.

0

u/hyeondrugs Dec 20 '17

As I stated previously, this is your idealistic view of Rome not something conclusive towards your point. Rome was the most populous city in the empire and the capital, of course they would ensure that there is sufficient grain supplies to feed the populous by diverting it from other provinces. That isn't out of some compassion for the lower castes, it was simply to quell the possibility of unrest and revolt within their capital. Try going anywhere else in the Roman empire expecting the same results, pro tip you can't. It wasn't out of compassion, it was out of political urgency brought forth by the populists and adopted by following administration's of Rome for similar reason, maintenance of order.

Again as I said for the colonies, this was all paid for by each respective crown to ensure the settlers begin to produce profit for the investment put into them, which by the way was an expectation.

What I'm really saying is compassion is your insertion to all of these examples that simply does not match. There are some examples of it but they are few and far between, and they aren't what you've listed thus far.

History is a compilation of human experiences often times parallel across time periods, but throughout all of history and prior to that there has always been an expectation that people contribute and earn worth their contribution.

If you don't bring anything to the table you don't take anything from it. The only exception being the elderly who have already contributed their whole life that can receive the benefits according to their contribution.

You simply cannot assert some absurd subjective shit like that and expect me to take it as is.

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u/GlibTurret Dec 20 '17

Please point out where I used the word "compassion" in any of my arguments.

You are reading what you want to read, not what I wrote.

Also, still waiting on your source for your argument.

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u/puckerings Dec 20 '17

Yes, it's definitely more difficult to be libertarian when you're not wealthy. There's a lot more about reality that you have to ignore to maintain your beliefs.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '17

id think few people who were born and raised poor are libertarian

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u/danjr321 Michigan Dec 20 '17

Born and raised poor to union member parents. My dad fairly recently came clean that we were one bad break from homeless many times. I would have to ignore every life experience I ever had to be libertarian.

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u/Quivis Dec 20 '17

Just so I understand better, you think it's harder for me to be a Libertarian because of my wage?

My beliefs are far more focused on me taking care of my family without interference of others without my consent. What my employer pays me has little to do with that in my perspective.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '17 edited Dec 20 '17

Do you also turn down health insurance? 401K benefits? Unemployment if you lose your job?

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u/Quivis Dec 20 '17

Yes. I pay the annual fee for doing so as well due to our current healthcare regulations.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '17

you should probably get your family health insurance.

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u/veralibertas Dec 20 '17

Why is advocating against the initiation of force more difficult if you are poor?

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u/puckerings Dec 20 '17 edited Dec 20 '17

Taxation is not the initiation of force. Please take your naive understanding of the non-aggression principle elsewhere. At least until you learn that it depends on an implicit understanding of property rights, which means that libertarianism that is built upon it depends on a particular understanding of property rights, which is the basis for a set of laws, which is the sort of thing that libertarianism claims is not necessary.

0

u/veralibertas Dec 20 '17

https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/is-taxation-theft

1

u/puckerings Dec 20 '17

Yes, I understand that libertarians claim that taxation is theft. But it isn't. And a link is not an argument.

Here's a scenario for you (not related to taxation, but the non-aggression principle). A man is walking along a country road. He decides to cut through a vacant field. After walking through this field for a few minutes, another man leaps out from behind a bush and physically attacks our traveler.

Who initiated force in this situation?

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u/[deleted] Dec 19 '17

What does feeding your family have to do with political affiliation?

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u/murphykills Dec 19 '17

if you benefit from social programs, you will probably not vote against social programs. although as rural america continues to teach us, anything is possible.

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u/[deleted] Dec 19 '17 edited Dec 23 '17

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 19 '17

Like higher taxes that reduce wages and increase the cost of goods?

Higher property taxes that increase housing costs?

Higher taxes that increase fuel costs?

Unfeathered immigration that reduces the worth of unskilled labor?

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u/puckerings Dec 20 '17

Unfeathered immigration that reduces the worth of unskilled labor?

This one gave me a chuckle. "All right, we'll let the chickens in but they need to be plucked first!"

Anyway, immigration does not reduce the "worth" of unskilled labour. It sometimes increases the supply, which allows businesses to take advantage of the situation by offering less and less with worse and worse working conditions, knowing that unskilled labourers have to take what they can get.

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u/murphykills Dec 20 '17

all of the things that you "earn" while living in a country would not have been possible if you weren't in a country that let you "earn" those things.
try building a life from scratch in a country with bottom 10 tax rates and come back when you're as successful as you are today.

10

u/puckerings Dec 20 '17

I didn't say Libertarian, I said libertarian. The belief that everyone should just fend for themselves is much easier to maintain when you never have to worry about money.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 20 '17

I mean if you have one that depends on you, just about everything. A Republican could decide to vote to shut down the planned parenthood you work at, or a Democrat might introduce laws making things harder on your hunting store. People who work in occupations that are often the subject of politicisation do need to be mindful of which law makers are paying attention to them.

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u/IRequirePants Dec 19 '17

It's easy to be libertarian when you don't have to worry about whether you'll be able to feed your family next week.

And it's easy to be socialist when it's not your money.

But wouldn't it be nice if we respected people a little bit more in this diverse country of ours.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '17

Do you even taxes, bro?

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u/scyth3s Dec 20 '17

And it's easy to be socialist when it's not your money.

It's easier to call it your money when you get it by paying everyone else as little as you legally can and saying "I did this."

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u/danjr321 Michigan Dec 20 '17

While commonly shipping goods on public roads....

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u/puckerings Dec 20 '17 edited Dec 20 '17

And it's easy to be socialist when it's not your money.

Everyone pays taxes, sweety. Even if you don't pay any income tax, you pay sales tax, payroll tax, there's all kinds of tax.

It's actually easy to be socialist if you're empathetic, regardless of your personal financial situation.

Edit: Plus there's the fact that "your money" only has any value because society agrees that it has value, and that "your money" was earned within that society, generally with the involvement of many other people. The idea that every person is an island is incredibly naive.

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u/Voyifi Dec 20 '17

What is someone else's fair share of what you worked to earn?

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u/neji64plms Michigan Dec 20 '17

My boss calls it "profits"

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u/danjr321 Michigan Dec 20 '17

Boss makes a dollar, I make a dime. That's why I poop on company time.

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u/puckerings Dec 20 '17

You must have missed my edit:

Plus there's the fact that "your money" only has any value because society agrees that it has value, and that "your money" was earned within that society, generally with the involvement of many other people. The idea that every person is an island is incredibly naive.

Your work has no value to anyone but yourself, unless you are part of society. Where did "your money" come from, exactly?

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u/[deleted] Dec 19 '17

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '17

plus you’re paying a much larger % of your income in sales tax, tolls, etc