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u/LoozianaExpat 6d ago
Alcohol is not cunning, baffling, nor powerful. Alcohol is alcohol. Put it in its place.
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u/Icy-Fisherman-6399 6d ago
If it's not cunning , baffling or powerful why is it that there are so many different forms of recovery groups from alcohol.?? From dharma, to smart recovery, detox, treatment centers harm reduction, medication that you can take so you won't drink, and finally the thing that worked for me, after I tried all the above mentioned, Alcoholics Anonymous. It's here that I learned not only how not to drink but how to live each day as it unfolds.
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u/buffalo___716 6d ago
Man props to anyone who this works for. But AA was not it for me
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u/inxile7 6d ago
Keep coming back, it gets better. I promise
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u/buffalo___716 5d ago
I do miss all those corny sayings though lol
It’s like if therapy was stuck in 1972
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u/inxile7 5d ago
Just because the program was invented in the 1930s, words have changed, but the concepts have remain the same.
You can justify staying out there anyway you want, bruv. But the truth is that it does get better if you keep coming back. I've met thousands of people in the program that can attest to that.
Keep comin' back :)
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u/ZenRiots 5d ago
I hate to be the one to tell you this, but the science of addiction and the concepts that surround recovery have changed dramatically since the 30s.
We, as a culture have a much deeper understanding of addiction and Neuroscience and we have come to understand that the beliefs enshrined in 12-step fellowships are completely incorrect.
The attitudes that these fellowships instill into their participants stand in direct opposition to a healthy recovery journey.
Externalizing causes and effects is not recovery science. It's Christian mysticism.
We have come a long way in understanding the nature of craving and choice. And almost everything that science has learned defies the beliefs taught by 12-step fellowships.
This is the entire problem with 12-step fellowships because their opinions, believes, and Faith no longer align with what we have learned about addictions, causes and effective treatments
A higher power cannot and will not save you from your OWN choices. 🤷
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u/inxile7 5d ago
Actually, it is you that is incorrect.
12 step programs like AA and NA, have helped literally MILLIONS of addicts and alcoholics recover. The program is 90 years old and is still used by most addiction centers as a cornerstone of addiction treatment program. That's cause and effect enough for me.
Society or the field of Neuroscience hasn't done shit to curb addiction. There's still millions of people who die every year from addiction related illness. What rehab facility has a higher success rate than AA? Exactly.
If you want to actually learn something about addiction and the human brain. Read "Dopamine Nation" by Anna Lembke. Then have GPT do a cross comparison on her findings and relate them to the steps of AA. Then maybe you'll think twice about posting your pseudo-intellectual BS on a sub geared towards helping addicts recover.
Or maybe just goto a meeting. It does it get better!
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u/Bigdavereed 5d ago
I believe you and I are as far apart politically as we can get. You damn sure got this right though.
Keep coming back!
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u/ZenRiots 5d ago
Wow dude, you drank all the Kool-Aid didn't you.
You obviously have done absolutely zero reading on Neuroscience
But yes, if you tell chat GPT to try and make something work with the 12-step program. It will absolutely create an echo chamber for you.
Congratulations!
But none of what you said disproves the fact that in 90 years we have learned a lot about addiction that stands in direct conflict with the beliefs of the 12-step style fundamentalist shepherding cults.
Freedom is possible, millions of people recover from addiction without spending the rest of their lives in meetings.
You could too... If you wanted to.
Asking rhetorical questions like "what rehab has a higher success rate than AA" is ridiculous and you know it. Studies have proven that 12-step fellowships do not perform as well as evidence-based recovery programs when it comes to long-term results. You can Google that... there are at least 4 studies that prove that.
Nobody's trying to MAKE you recover... You can continue to White knuckle sobriety by going to meetings every 3 days for the rest of your life if you'd like .... But don't tell people that they're victims... Stop telling people that they need God to heal.
That much is provably false
People are not powerless unless they choose to be powerless... As you have clearly done.
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u/Bigdavereed 5d ago
Sober for over three decades. Went to meetings religiously for a few years. Haven't been to one in over 20. Still follow the steps.
If I had to "white knuckle" sobriety for this long I doubt I could. (and who would want to)
AA 100% saved my life - but that freed me to live a "normal" life. I have a friend that's been sober for over 15 years -he is still active in the program, still goes to meetings. It works for him.
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u/ZenRiots 5d ago
Alcohol does not force anyone to do anything. Alcohol does not have a personality Alcohol does not make your choices Alcohol does not define your thoughts Alcohol is not a person Alcohol has no control
You are the one who makes the choice... You are the chooser and the doer.
Alcohol is not magical, it is not a demon, it is not a wily adversary.
Alcohol is a choice
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u/__Big_Hat_Logan__ 4d ago
It’s a metaphor? It’s not saying the chemical ethanol in liquid form is literally cunning and has a personality. It’s a just a comment on the insidious nature of addiction.
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u/SGS57 5d ago
Not for those of us who have the addiction gene and suffer from the disease of addiction.
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u/ZenRiots 5d ago
Wow dude.... You REALLY need to do some study of religious addiction material.
There is no addiction gene, You are not a helpless victim of your genetics. Telling yourself that you are merely limits your opportunity to recover.
The disease of addiction is a disease of the mechanism of choice itself. Medical science recognizes it as a disease of the mind, much like depression, ADHD, and OCD
You are not sick, you are not a victim... You just never learned how to make better choices.
Change the language you use to describe your life and you will change your life.
You are NOT powerless
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u/simon12332 5d ago
Maybe you need to accept that different paradigms work for different people... For some people the surrendering process is very natural and helpful. I have seen it is generally more applicable for people than saying "its up to me". And for others "its up to me" is the only thing that works 🤷 so speak with less conviction and stay in your lane of experience.
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u/ZenRiots 5d ago
If your only experience with recovery is through these 12-step groups where they only allow one approach Then that will naturally be the one that you choose.
There are SO many other pathways to recovery now... It is common knowledge that the dogma of 12-step fellowships are spiritual beliefs and not evidence-based practices.
You're free to join whatever religion you like, but when you proselytize... Insisting that your religion's view of the world is the only valid view of the world... You're going to meet with some resistance.
But that's because evidence-based recovery and faith-based recovery are very different. One is based in science and the other one is not. 🤷
I have EXTENSIVE experience with fundamentalist. Christian shepherding cults... So much that I could be considered an expert. I also experienced addiction for decades and have substantial time in recovery.
This absolutely is my Lane.... And I will continue to speak out against fundamentalist propaganda and recruitment programs. 🤷
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u/Zino-exe- 6d ago
never had problems to stop alcohol tbh i was alcoholic drinking 6 50cl beer per night, when i wanted to stop i taped down to 4 and to 2 and i stopped completely, what made me struggle is crack and H
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u/Few_Presence910 6d ago
I don't believe this to be true. Alcohol does not have a personality. It is just a liquid. A person can be cunning, baffling, and powerful because they have a brain and can choose to behave in these ways. Alcohol cannot. It is a poisonous substance that does not belong in the body. If I put water in my gas tank and my car quit running, I wouldn't say, "I don't get why my car doesn't run right, this water is cunning and baffling. No, water does not belong in a gas tank just like alcohol does not belong in the body. This is just my 2 cents of course.