r/rugbyunion • u/WallopyJoe • 13d ago
Discussion What's the most any player has ever been 'found out'?
Am sure people have all sorts of interpretations of what this means, curious where everyone stands on it.
475
u/MountainEquipment401 Scarlets 13d ago
I remember this one time that Bryan Habanna found out his opposition was slow on the turn...
126
u/Funkus-the-boogieman 13d ago
I remember Bryan Habana giving Takudza Ngwenya the outside and he got burned!
→ More replies (1)53
u/WallopyJoe 13d ago
Ngwenya
While that's one of my favourite World Cup tries ever, man was pretty much at full burn when Habana had to turn in on him before even starting to catch up
27
u/Goose-rider3000 13d ago
Was one hell of a try. From in their own 22, the hand off on Butch James, then Habana being gassed. Had it all!
8
u/WallopyJoe 13d ago
From both shape and execution it was also extremely similar to a try Japan scored against Wales in the same tournament.
7
u/Funkus-the-boogieman 13d ago
Caucaunibuca was on fire that WC too!
4
u/OneWingedAngelfan 13d ago
Literally? Because I'm sure he wasn't playing at RWC'07
→ More replies (1)29
6
4
11
u/Only_One_Kenobi Join r/rugbyunion superbru 13d ago
Where'd you hear about that? Sounds like a great idea for an ad. No idea what you would be advertising though.
266
u/Rhyers World's Best Quarter-Finalists 13d ago
I want to say as a coach Eddie Jones in 2023. That was something else.
54
34
u/damnumalone 13d ago
The absolute ridiculous thing about this is that you should have heard some of the stories the Australian players had about him before 2023.
They absolutely hated him for his previous stint, this one was never going to go well
17
u/sock_with_a_ticket 13d ago
I still can't fathom how someone in Rugby Australia looked at the downward trajectory of his England team after the 2019 world cup and went "That's our guy!"
8
u/damnumalone 13d ago
It f***ing blows my mind. I spoke to Hoiles, Tiranui and some else I can’t remember at an event in like 2019 about it and they all had to say was terrible stories about him.
8
u/HedleyVerity Reds 13d ago
And especially insane given we’d already hired him once before as coach! And fired him too because of what he did to the players!
5
u/sock_with_a_ticket 12d ago edited 12d ago
I've come round to the idea that he'd been carrying the grudge since 2005 and he only took the job so he could sabotage the Wallabies as an act of vengeance.
33
u/robinhosantiago 13d ago
Yeah that was great - so many pundits were going on about “you may think he’s nasty but Eddie Jones always performs at World Cups, he’s a genius” etc. James Haskell was saying it over and over.
Then he put in possibly the worst coaching showing in the history of the RWC and immediately vanished. Hilarious
14
26
u/bred_binge Northampton Saints 13d ago
I mean he has a pretty impressive CV, I think the game just moved past him (like almost all coaches really)
→ More replies (21)20
7
u/Plife30 13d ago
I was a big fan of Eddie pre 2023 WC. I saw what he did for England Japan. But I was there in Lyon against Wales in 2023. Arguments with other Aussies broke out, beer was spilled, tears were held back. F Eddie Jones.
→ More replies (2)
42
u/PavidDocock Lock 13d ago
Benji Marshall
24
u/thatlooserevival Chiefs | Leinster 13d ago
Kind of, except no one with half a rugby brain ever thought he would be good that quickly 😂
6
131
u/19Andrew92 Scotland 13d ago
It’s harsh cause it wasn’t the player himself… but the one springs to mind is Mathew Tait.
He was so unbelievably hyped ahead of that wales game and it took him a loooong time to recover from being tackled by Henson
112
u/JCBlairWrites 13d ago
I think two things were 'found out' that day: 1. For English fans ignoring wider rugby; Henson was a serious player. 2. Sending a 12 stone (if that) whippet like Tait on a crash ball is idiotic.
It was brutal (and typical) of England to hype him, misuse him and then discard him despite his world beating 7s performances and continued crazy club form. As a Wasps fan, I'd break out in hives whenever Newcastle could actually get the ball to him.
72
u/mierneuker Leicester Tigers 13d ago
He was so good at fullback for us for a long time too. For a little while I thought he was one of the best English FB options, but that one game against Wales right at the start of his career meant England would never trust he could do a job with such a physical aspect to it. Such a pity.
Still, any time I want to show someone an incredible tackle I show them the second Henson tackle on Tait, he's static, and Tait is at pace, and he just catches him and lifts him into the air, stops his momentum, then reverses it and puts him on the ground in a controlled manner. Just immense.
22
8
38
u/Mulboyne England 13d ago
Yes, it wasn't Tait who was found out, it was Andy Robinson. Appalling coaching and man-management on his part.
17
u/JCBlairWrites 13d ago edited 13d ago
Particularly in the centres during that period, England were really at the mercy of his "international centres must be international defenders" policy.
Tindall/Noon (both fine players... but players that do the same job) was a repeated low point for a country that had Tait, Allen, Trinder, Abbott (until his injury), Turner Hall.
Absolutely nuts that we kept landing on the same "route one" combo.
14
u/AlBones7 13d ago
Andy Robinson's back rows were similarly appalling. He liked locks at 6, 6s at 7 and then for some reason Pat Sanderson at 8 on occasion. England have always had a habit of conservative selections and he was the worst for it. There would always be some kind of two 12s, beefing up the back row by playing everyone out of position and fullbacks on the wing to catch and kick kind of scenario.
3
u/JCBlairWrites 13d ago
His 'safety' and 'bulk' first approach was pretty dire. It felt like the textbook definition of trying not to lose rather than win.
23
u/No-Letterhead-1232 13d ago
Tait scored the best try I've ever seen live. in the daily mail cup final for Barnard castle. From his own 22, gassed the entire oakham team, chipped the full back an scored under the posts
7
u/toekneehart England 13d ago
If you can find it on YouTube his performance in the Australian hosted Commonwealth Sevens was absolutely nuts. Kid had so much pace. My all time favourite England player. Nuts though that may sound.
13
u/mierneuker Leicester Tigers 13d ago
He was so good at fullback for us for a long time too. For a little while I thought he was the best English FB option, but that one game against Wales meant England would never trust he could do a job with such a physical aspect to it.
15
u/JCBlairWrites 13d ago
There's also his glorious line break against SA in the WC final.
He picked up the ball and decided to just do the job himself. Very nearly won the game on his own.
8
u/WallopyJoe 13d ago
I know the support probably wasn't there, but if only we'd gone right instead of left
6
5
u/BillyTheKidsFriend Wales 13d ago
Nobody talks about this and i dont know why, all the focus on Cueto's foot i guess
→ More replies (1)7
u/Benshhpress 13d ago edited 13d ago
Similarly I always remember the much-hyped young Gloucester centre Anthony Allen. Was looking like a promising player in the mid-00s so England thought that it would be good to give him his first start against the AB. Bit of a baptism of fire and he had a tough time of it.
I'm an Ireland fan so I stand to be corrected, but I don't ever remember Allen playing for England again?
Edit: Just checked he played one more game for England the same year (2006) against Argentina but that was it (bar some appearances for the Saxons).
12
u/JCBlairWrites 13d ago
Ahh, Allen! As I recall he was fantastic in attack during that game too, slicing the ABs open.
England then behaved as though getting handed off by Dan Carter of all people was the most embarrassing thing that could happen to a player.
8
u/Goose-rider3000 13d ago
I thought Allen was going to be great for England!
4
u/JCBlairWrites 13d ago
Likewise. He just kept doing what he did for Glos, then came back bigger and stronger for Tigers but was never given another real look-in.
7
4
u/JRHunter7 Gloucester 13d ago
Came here to say Anthony Allen: poor bastard had his first and only caps lined up against Dan Carter and Felipe Contepomi. Wrecked his confidence for seasons!
11
u/OkKaleidoscope4433 13d ago
Twice 😅 once was bad enough but both hits were massive.
You felt for him I know he was 18, but I’ve never seen a very literal Man Vs Teen be so so obvious.
Peak Henson Vs touted up and coming wonder kid.
→ More replies (2)17
u/cpt_ppppp Bath 13d ago
Peak Henson was just an insanely good player.
13
u/OkKaleidoscope4433 13d ago
Honestly I really do wonder how legendary he could’ve become had fame and reality tv shows hadn’t sunk their claws in so deep.
→ More replies (1)3
u/cpt_ppppp Bath 13d ago
Yeah, I can't say I blame him because I'd probably be the same with all the attention he got. But if he'd been like Wilko he would have gone down as a rugby legend. Probably would have had less fun though!
11
u/WallopyJoe 13d ago
Tait's come up more than once, though I think I'm struggling to work out how this one lines up with the idea of being found out.
He got smashed in a tackle, sure. I guess it's been so long since I saw him play, did his game get worse because of it? Did people go at him in the same way and experience the same success?12
u/19Andrew92 Scotland 13d ago
He was so hyped as the new 18 year old player in the England set up to a ludicrous extent (not his fault), before the game he was being lauded as the next best thing in the game because of his talent and young age.
After the game he was dropped by England for a whole year and was the subject of shit loads of media scrutiny over whether he was actually as good as the hype THEY put on him.
It wasn’t a “found out” long term nor really for the player himself more of a “found out” for those who were hyping up young English players to stupid levels and I could strongly argue changed how much these young guys get treated these days
6
u/WallopyJoe 13d ago
I have too little memory of that, but it sounds about right.
God I fucking hate our sports media.→ More replies (1)→ More replies (3)14
u/JohnSV12 Newcastle Falcons 13d ago
Hardly found out cos of one massive tackle. Two years later he was in a WC final.
7
8
56
u/Funkus-the-boogieman 13d ago
Clive Woodward did wonders for the English game, but the 05 Lions tour was a clusterfuck of biblical proportions. Yes, I know he was a coach, but he was a player before so boo-yah!
→ More replies (4)9
u/TConner42 13d ago
Was/Is Woodward considered a good coach? Or was he lucky in having a once in lifetime player like Wilkinson who could score a kick from anywhere and built his team around that?
11
u/Funkus-the-boogieman 13d ago
He was fortunate to have a whole range of high quality, experienced players top select from. I'm not sure how much he was 'coach' and how much he was 'manager'. I know he changed the game in terms of how the players should be handled in terms of organisation and professionalism in the game - quality of facilities, transport, welfare, logistics, training gear, hotels etc.
→ More replies (2)5
u/internetwanderer2 12d ago
He was a revolutionary team manager in rugby, but from a coaching perspective, the biggest thing was hiring Phil Larder.
Ex rugby league coach, came to Union and was the initiator of the "ex rugby league player as union defence coach" trend that continues to this day.
Woodward's abilities were best seen off the pitch, and how England professionalised under him to a great extent, particularly in comparison to the other Six Nations sides. He implemented commonplace ideas now in how national teams are run, the use of data and analytics etc.
But Larder as defence coach was a big variable. Gave England an edge as other sides were stuck playing an increasingly out of date defensive system.
He also was fortunate to come into an England set up with experienced heads like Leonard, Johnson, Dallaglio, Back. He didn't need to build a leadership group, and I think they were also strong enough to stand up to him. For example, at the 03 world cup he wanted them to do a full training session after the quarters or semis, and the senior pros just told him No. Said they were too battered and bruised for it, and would benefit more from the rest. He wasn't happy, but agreed to it.
90
u/subparhardscoper 13d ago
Henry Arundell is up there for me. Mega hyped given his very real attacking magic but has turned into a liability even at decent club level. Do hope he can find coaches to sort the rest of his game out because he is an electric watch on his day
21
u/Ronald_Ulysses_Swans Don’t be scared Johnny 13d ago
I guess he’s still really young and if he’s coach able and commits he will be able to learn. I feel like he wasted a bit of time in France unfortunately. Let’s see what Bath can do.
→ More replies (1)11
u/SUM_Buoy 13d ago
I think he will still come through and score plenty of tries at prem level. Would love if he could convert that to international level. Never seen such an exciting talent.
→ More replies (1)19
u/perplexedtv Leinster 13d ago
About as useful as an electric watch
10
u/confused_ninja Wasps 13d ago
I mean he’s 22 years old and has been playing for a heavily out of form racing team. I’d give him the benefit of the doubt and see what he can do for bath next season
23
u/Only_One_Kenobi Join r/rugbyunion superbru 13d ago
Aphiwe Dyantyi, Chiliboy Ralapelle.
18
u/Tar-ZA-n South Africa 13d ago
Big oof 😅
Also Elton Jantjies for similar and additional infractions.
→ More replies (1)10
u/sheep1996 Serial Referee Appreciator 13d ago
Dyantyi was the biggest disappointment to me. He was on his way to being a super star and probably would have been starting in the 2019 and 2023 World Cup squads ahead of Mapimpi. He genuinely could have been our best ever on the wing, but stuffed it up with PEDs
10
u/ebenseregterbalsak Western Province 13d ago
Him and Nkosi also symbolised the shift Rassie was bringinging in with merit based diversity, guts and some good running rugby in tgst first game against England. Feel like he broke the countries heart when the news came out
98
u/Windup-1014 Munster 13d ago
I don't think he's the most a player was ever found out but Jesus some people sure were hyping Freddie Steward to the high heavens a couple of years ago. His defence sure looked "found out" at times.
32
u/Oisinlaighin Ireland Leinster 13d ago
He has the turning circle of a cruise liner. Great under the high ball though!
42
u/IWrestleSausages 13d ago
Yeah this was my first choice. At one stage lots of people were saying he was the top 15 in the world. Man is freakish at taking the high ball, but his ground defence is average, which in a 15 isnt a great attribute
→ More replies (1)18
u/Windup-1014 Munster 13d ago
At one stage lots of people were saying he was the top 15 in the world
A lot of that going around back then ye. Crazy takes. There was a user (with a Tigers flair tbf) in the thread after Ireland won the slam in 2023 who claimed Freddie would start over Lowe and Hansen on the wing for Ireland.
He was just that good according to him. "That's just reality guys, sorry" he said. I remember it was actually a Frenchman who pointed out how delulu he sounded lol.
Like not a bad player but never in the conversation for best 15 in the world. Not even close.
→ More replies (2)18
u/BurbankElephants England & Leicester Tigers 13d ago
Some teams seemed hell bent on making him look god mode by kicking straight to him and not really dealing with the results.
For a little while that covered up some of his weaknesses.
10
u/Lord_Bolt-On URC Winning Masochist 13d ago
I think it was less kicking straight to him, and more he was just that good at covering the space.
That said, as attack changed, and kicking strategy changed, he became more and more exposed. And now here we are - he's a great club player and can do his job competently internationally, but it's a bit mad to think of him as "world class."
28
u/Mulboyne England 13d ago
If the meaning of the original question is "Which player was exposed at Test level, in a way which opponents could exploit, and he never adapted to cover that weakness", then Steward fits the bill better than most in this thread.
As you say, it's not necessarily a fatal flaw, as he has been changing his game. If he doesn't develop over the next year or so, though, then that might turn into his international legacy.
Sam Prendergast is in a similar position with tackling. It's a clear weakness but he has time to address it.
8
u/andrewforde 13d ago
I guess another element of him being found out - to some extent - is that whenever he plays teams don't target him under the high ball as he's safe as houses. Any other fullback and they will, which results in the argument of "If Steward was playing he'd have been solid under the high ball" when in reality it wouldn't have been the same tactic
→ More replies (1)4
u/StorminaHalfPint Brok the Barbarian 13d ago
And can turn like a one-eyed elephant crossing the desert. About the same build up of speed too.
86
u/JohnSV12 Newcastle Falcons 13d ago
Harry Mallinder.
Looked like a sure fire worldy at u20s. But it turned out tackling really wasn't his thing.
Look out Sam P....
22
17
u/Ronald_Ulysses_Swans Don’t be scared Johnny 13d ago
I watched Harry play a lot at Northampton. He was a UNIT and had so much promise but I think was ruined by the era in which he came through at Northampton and a major knee injury.
If he came through now he’d be played as a massive ball playing centre, instead of being shuffled around full back and fly half like he was
38
14
u/TommyKentish Saracens 13d ago
I wonder how he’d have fared if he came through with the current Saints crop instead of the arse end of his Dad’s stint.
5
u/Dentury- Leicester Tigers 13d ago
I thought he'd play for England. I think he's part of the nfl pathway now.
→ More replies (1)
34
u/MindfulInquirer batmaaaaaaaan tanananananana 13d ago edited 13d ago
Well you'd HAVE to mention Slimani in 2017. He was destroying everything in his path, really just everything, from around 2014-17. Was often mentioned as the best THP around. Then the refs thought he was being illegal at the bind and started penalizing him systematically. I still think he suffered a particular kind of scrutiny. All props cheat if they can. But eh. That's how it went down for the ol' Rabah.
12
u/cabaiste Welcome to the Big Seó! 13d ago
He still gets refereed like that but it's usually only by the French referees in European games.
47
u/bomskokbabelaas South Africa 13d ago
Controversial one because he's had a beautiful redemption arc as a player and seemingly as a person, which has made me genuinely pleased, but James O'connor in his younger years.
He was hyped to high heavens (I lived in Australia at the time) and very soon became one of those players who could be brilliant on occasion but more often than not got found out by opposition who nailed him on his weaknesses. I remember watching a game where they showed the locker rooms at half time and he was literally on his phone, posting on social media. Seemed he enjoyed being famous more so than bothering to stay ahead of the curve. This was also a period where aussie rugby was just highly toxic in many ways. Like I said, I'm glad he's matured and is ending off his career on a high note. He's always been incredibly talented.
23
u/damnumalone 13d ago
Yeah I think this is right. Started his career brilliantly, I remember people who didn’t even follow rugby being like “what’s the deal with that young kid on the wing isn’t he only like 18?”
Then it all went to his head and it he took it for granted a bit. There was all the off field stuff - that crew of KB, Giteau, Mitchell and JOC created a toxic environment for Aus rugby. Also he tried to play 12 for too many years and just wasn’t big enough.
But kudos to him it sounds like he learned a lot from it and came out a better person. By all reports he’s going really well now, has matured and actually turned into a great bloke. It’s kind of a good story - got too arrogant and got found out, went away and thought about it, got better
6
u/blindside06 NSW Waratahs 13d ago
They were nicknamed The Cancer! Not so much Mitchell, but the other 3 most definitely. Throw QC in that mix as well.
5
u/thepeteyboy Reds 13d ago
I think unfair to throw Gits in there. But yeah the 3 amigos (Quade JOC and Beale) were all child prodigies and believed their own hype.
On the flip side i remember being an idiot at 18- 23 years old so hard we hold these kids to such a high standard
6
u/Ok_Caregiver530 13d ago
Some old highlights have been popping up lately from games against SA, which are from his time on the wing, and you can see what a talent he was. He was such a balanced, quick, and strong ball runner.
But then he thought he could make a good 10, and ever since then, I'd say he's fallen off and never reached any great heights. He doesn't fit the mould of a natural distributor or game manager.
Ironically, he might be starting 10 this weekend.
→ More replies (3)
49
u/ruthless_burger Lock 13d ago
Aaron smith found out what happens if you shag a girl in the disabled toilet in the airport...
31
u/FieldsOfFire1983 Gloucester 13d ago
For the purposes of variety, I remember Henry Paul being subbed for England after twenty odd minutes after crossing over from League.
20
u/CloudStrife1985 13d ago
Yeh, massively out of his depth as an international centre in Union despite looking good for Gloucester..He never looked comfortable for England being the second or third receiver and seemed to defend differently to the rest of the team. That Australia game was brutal, I felt so sorry for him.
England probably as much at fault, they'd helped him move and picked him quite quickly but we already had Greenwood, Catt, Tindall and even Wilkinson and Hodgson could and occasionally did play 12. I think he played a few minutes at full back as well but never looked right. He just stood out due to wearing a headguard, I think he was the first England back I'd seen wearing one.
Vainikolo is another who bombed at Test level despite a good club record after switching. A lot of hype but he flopped, seemed to be a tank with zero pace and was just constantly bundled into touch though, from memory, it was a shit backline for a couple of years.
17
u/Mulboyne England 13d ago edited 13d ago
The worst part of Vainikolo' initial selection is that it was at the expense of an in-form Simpson-Daniel. It beggar's belief that Brian Ashton of all coaches made that call.
Thus began a long cycle of Simpson-Daniel
- Tearing it up at club level.
- Getting back in England contention.
- Suffering an injury
- Coaches wanting him to prove himself again for Gloucester, before including him in an England squad
- See 1.
→ More replies (2)8
7
u/Snave96 England- Tom+Ben>Steph+Seth 13d ago
As much as he was a massive powerhouse, Big Les didn't have much else in his game, making him a bad crossover prospect coming over to Union.
Not to mention that he was already on the older side (especially for a winger).
It seems that especially with English converts from League to Union they always either move over too late (Big Les, Faz Sr) or get messed about positionally (Sam Burgess).
Aussie converts seem to have a better time as they often come over earlier/younger, and also usually have much more experience playing Union growing up than English League players do. Look at Suaali as an example for both of those factors.
6
u/cavendishasriel Gloucester 13d ago
Ah that’s harsh. Henry Paul was on a different level playing for Glaws. Got proper scape goated when playing for England.
→ More replies (3)
13
u/njackson100-ie 13d ago
Matt Banahan at Test level.
Nathan Hughes arguably too.
Feels harsh, both good players on their day.
40
u/rluke09 Cardiff Blues 13d ago
Sione Lauaki
17
u/Appropriate_Eye_9533 13d ago
The man was an absolute beast for the chiefs but chuck a black jersey on him and he couldn’t do a single thing right.
23
u/PavidDocock Lock 13d ago
It’s an ugly YouTube highlight real.
Very sad he died so young.
11
u/whathaveicontinued Auckland 13d ago
this is how I know you guys are casuals, you bring up that 1 video. Completely forgetting every other thing he did at the top level for SR, against ABs etc. Trash fans to disrespect a legend like that.
10
u/RainbowDinoChicken England 13d ago
I remember Lauaki for the Chiefs being pretty much unstoppable, gained five metres every time they passed to him.
→ More replies (3)9
u/Logan_No_Fingers 13d ago
Even the Aussie commentators were starting to feel bad on that one.
→ More replies (2)10
u/GaryGronk I Can't Spake 13d ago
I remember watching this and laughing like a demented donkey. Everything the guy did went to shit. Poor bloke.
40
u/PuzzleheadedFold503 Ten/Tin/Dix/Diez/Dieci/Fuh-Laah-Horf 13d ago
Tom Varndell Vs Australia.
Tuqiri ate him like a pack of w(h)ine gums.
Or there is that famous clip of Mike Phillips trying to be a hard bstard in a Wales Vs Barbarians game, he gets gripped and stared down off the ball by Erik Lund (Norway captain, 2.10m of Viking beard and skinhead)... and you can physically see him shrink and sht himself. It keeps getting taken down whenever it is re uploaded...
→ More replies (1)17
u/zajirobo Munster 13d ago
It's ok, you're allowed to swear on the internet
24
u/WallopyJoe 13d ago
Actually we all met up and decided he isn't
First time that's happened→ More replies (1)
10
u/Jeromethered 13d ago
Timana Tahu against SA in SA - leaked like 30 through his channel
→ More replies (1)
32
u/weavin VAL 9000 13d ago
Martin Johnson as a coach?
24
6
u/Lopsided_Soup_3533 England 13d ago
Yeah one of my fave ever players i also enjoy his grumpiness as a pundit but an awful coach
6
u/Mulboyne England 13d ago
Not a bad shout. The only quibble is that there were a lot of people at the outset who admired the man but doubted his credentials as a professional coach.
The 2010 Autumn win over Australia, and 2011 Six Nations win raised hopes that he might have found a way forward but he didn't have enough experience to make the right calls. We'll never know if he could have made a decent coach if he'd started at club level first, or if he'd stayed in the England job.
8
u/NoProgress9760 13d ago
Tom Williams in 2009 for the infamous Bloodgate incident- made worse by Nick Evans then missing a kick to win the game.
4
u/blindside06 NSW Waratahs 13d ago
Just listened to a very funny podcast on this!!!! Check out Bizarre Sports - Bloodgate. A very funny take on that saga. As an Aussie I didn’t know a heap about it before hand either.
8
u/NoProgress9760 13d ago
Looking back on it the whole thing is laughable- blood capsule drops out of his mouth when he tries to bite it the first time- he then limps off even though he supposedly has an injury around his mouth, and tops it all off by giving the most unsubtle wink of all time
→ More replies (1)6
u/blindside06 NSW Waratahs 13d ago
😂😂 and it was bought at a joke shop!!! So good. And from what the podcast said, the club offered him a contract extension and a job for life plus a job for his Mrs if he kept quiet and took the fall!!
8
u/arsebiscuits1 Leinster 13d ago
Maybe not as high profile but Carlin Isles?
Sevens try machine - 200+ tries.
Speed merchant and very little else.
Signs for Glasgow and never makes a senior appearance for them.
Goes back to 7s
57
u/petey_love Wasps 13d ago
Duhan VDM at this last lions tour. Still an incredible attacker and finisher, but can't pass, catch a high ball, kick, or defend. Wallabies exposed all good weaknesses and he had a pretty poor tour.
54
u/EJmitchell18 Scotland 13d ago
That's all been apparent for years tbf
6
u/carchadon Stormers 13d ago
There’s even a video of Rassie saying so mid-game on the touch line at Murrayfield
25
u/HalcyonDaysAreGone Scotland 13d ago
I'd say this doesn't really fit, not because the weaknesses you listed aren't true, but because they've always been true and everyone and their mother knows that about him. He's a world class attacker who's just not that good at everything else. Just doesn't fit as "found out" I'd say.
→ More replies (4)7
u/Connell95 🏆 “Biggest Hack, Anti-SH Chip-on-Shoulder Poster” 13d ago edited 13d ago
I don’t see how that fits at all. He played exactly as he always plays, and was comfortably the highest try scorer on tour.
Had the Lions selected him for the tests, they would have scored more tries – we know from the Autumn he’s incredibly effective against them.
(They might have lost some points too from his other flaws, but given James Lowe was shit throughout, that’s much more up in the air).
As ever that will massively upset English supporters who will no doubt be furiously downvoting at this very moment, but that’s the reality…
6
u/MrQeu Loving Joel Merkler as a way of life 13d ago
In recent French rugby there’s Antoine Miquel. Big number eight. Not many technical abilities. Just a bowling ball.
He wasn’t cut for Toulouse and went to Bordeaux to play for Urios as if he would be the new Picamoles. First match of the season against Toulouse he sucker punched Alban Placines in a maul. No ST player shook his hand after the match.
He finished the season on the bench and after a season with few playtime he is now in ProD2
7
u/iambarticus Wellington Lions 13d ago
For NZ, back in the day, Mark Carter. Made it in as John Hart was best friends with his dad.
Isaia Toeava was rushed in far too young and it killed his confidence.
More recently maybe George Whitelock. Journeyman but brother of a GOAT which didn’t help.
→ More replies (1)4
30
u/Ouboet South Africa 13d ago
Quade Cooper. By the cops. For house robbery. Lol
→ More replies (1)6
u/damnumalone 13d ago
He also won a super rugby championship for the reds and the Rugby Championship for the wallabies so at least he went ok on the field for a period there even if every other country seemed to hate him haha
→ More replies (1)
6
u/andrewforde 13d ago
Alex Cuthbert I think is a solid example.
Unreal try scoring record when he burst on the scene for Cardiff in 2011, and then followed that up for Wales between 2012 - 2014.
Teams then found him out and capitalised on it. Seemed to be targeted under the high ball, focus of attack was down his channel & as soon as players were up in his face it would lead to him making an error.
Worth saying his confidence took a huge dip. Even when he was struggling for Wales he was still scoring some great tries and performing well for Cardiff, but it just seemed a bit much for him at international level and was being picked on reputation.
Mind you, the hounding and abuse from Wales fans was way too unjustified.
Was nice to see him regain some of his mojo at Exeter and get a few Wales caps again once he came back to Wales, but man, 2012-2014 Alex Cuthbert was just different gravy.
3
u/Vanterblack London Irish 13d ago
I specifically remember attending a Wales game at the Principality during his more tricky years playing for Wales. There was one Welsh fan in particular who gave him so much abuse from the sidelines for about 15-20 minutes, and Cuthbert would have absolutely been able to hear it. I felt so sorry for him, he seems like a nice guy and deserved encouragement from the fans.
17
u/adturnerr Masher Opoku-Fordjour 13d ago
I'll preface this by saying he had a good summer tour, but Steward vs anyone pacey
→ More replies (1)
20
u/RianSG Leinster 13d ago
Andy Powell, brilliant direct runner. Didn’t have much else to his game
18
u/llb_robith Ireland 13d ago
My best mate is Welsh, and Powell became a real cult figure between us during the 2009 Lions tour. In that game where he clotheslined Duane Vernuleun, my god, I don't think I've ever laughed so much in my whole life. We missed the rest of the game just watching it over and over
→ More replies (1)
22
u/Putrid-Impact8999 13d ago
A bit harsh and perhaps it was due to Razor’s coaching but Damian McKenzie in 2024 was found out as not being able to be trusted to be the starting 10 for the All Blacks to consistently win games. He got every opportunity and lost his place to Beauden Barrett.
11
u/belkabelka Ulster 13d ago
It blows my mind that Beauden got his international debut in 2012 and is still starting at 10 for the ABs in 2025.
5
u/Christy427 13d ago
I remember BBC bigging you this new mould of larger center to just run over the likes of O'Driscoll. First run at O'Driscoll he just sheparded him to the side and shoved him over the sidelines.
Can't remember his name, don't think he ended up with too many caps (even if some larger centers have been successful)
→ More replies (2)
16
3
u/Turbulent-Physics-77 Worcester Warriors 13d ago
I like him as a prem player but rob du preez one and only bok cap was a horrible 10 minutes against wales that cost rassie his first game in charge
5
u/RiotRugby USA 13d ago
Harsh but Phil Vickery on the 09 Lions tour lined up against Beast. He had him in a box.
More modern example to me would be Alex Dombrandt. Dominates at club level, and looks world class but doesn't show nearly the same impact at the Test stage.
28
u/Exotic_Gazelle6764 13d ago
Sam Burgess must be in the conversation?
85
u/HaggisTheCow Scotland 13d ago
Was he found out or was he used poorly by both club and country and used as a scapegoat for a shocking team world cup performance?
31
u/Thatch1888 Bristol 13d ago
The latter for sure. A few people used him as the excuse and it became the narrative
13
u/RoutineFeature9 Bath 13d ago
He was doing well for club, in the back row. When England put him in the centres it was a bit much. He did ok but it wasn't up to the hype and he was scapegoat for a very poor campaign.
12
u/AlBones7 13d ago
Yeah definitely a scapegoat. England were actually leading when he got subbed. Also, in true England fashion Brad Barritt was playing 13 with him who had no business being outside of the 12 shirt.
→ More replies (1)9
u/Exotic_Gazelle6764 13d ago
Yeah, that's fair enough. Maybe he's sticking in my mind because of how much he was touted as the saviour of English rugby. People saying he would be their Sonny Bill. It's a lot of expectation
32
u/TBTBTBTB2 Bath 13d ago
I’ll die on the hill that he’d have been very close to being a lion in 2017 if he’d stuck around. Can’t blame him for leaving though, just a shame Bath and England couldn’t settle the 12/6 debate. Imagine how good he’d be nowadays off the bench in a 6-2 split!
→ More replies (2)6
u/Mulboyne England 13d ago
Eddie Jones would definitely have had Sam Burgess in his team. He loved ex-league players when managing Australia and Japan.
5
u/TBTBTBTB2 Bath 13d ago
Even for England Jones didn’t mind a league player - if Burgess had stuck around and got given Ben Teos opportunities he’d be a legend
→ More replies (1)9
u/yesiamclutz Harlequins England 13d ago
He may not have been found out as a player but he was as a nasty peice of work.
→ More replies (2)
7
u/M37841 Referee 13d ago
I think that might be me, agreeing to play in a scratch 7s team in an end of season tournament, having not played since university. I had been a winger but agreed to play scrum half because how hard can it be, right? First team we played were a mix of pro and semi-pro players, scrum half had played at age group national level but not quite made it to the senior squad. One minute in, scrum, our ball. My fingers just touched the ball as it came out and 0.00001 seconds later I was face down in the mud. It didn’t get better. That was the last day I played, suddenly reffing looked more appealing.
17
u/FirmDingo8 13d ago
Mathew Tait vs Gavin Henson
11
13
u/Only_One_Kenobi Join r/rugbyunion superbru 13d ago
The All Blacks organisation turning a blind eye to their players' gender based violence?
→ More replies (3)
6
u/Head_Wasabi7359 13d ago
Laumape the human wrecking ball. He didn't wreck much if he was tackled before he could build speed
3
u/thepeteyboy Reds 13d ago
I dunno I reckon he was hard done by. Was the form 12 the year he was dropped by ABs.
He looks past it now however
→ More replies (1)
20
u/Nice-Chart-6749 Leinster 13d ago
I think Stockdale was one found out. Very much suffered after he dropped that ball against leinster
18
9
9
u/Complex_Ostrich7981 Ireland 13d ago
That’s a bit harsh, he fell away a bit and then got injured, but for a season and a half he was the best wing in Europe
→ More replies (1)5
u/Ok-Establishment1159 13d ago
Definitely one to drop away. He wouldn’t be the first wing to burn out at a young age
→ More replies (4)
3
u/cabaiste Welcome to the Big Seó! 13d ago
Wasn't there a mega-hyped teenager for Wales who stepped out of a tackle in his first test match way back in the early 00s?
→ More replies (2)
3
u/saviouroftheweak Premiership Women's Rugby 13d ago
I think when we all saw how Jess Breach scores her tries you can only ever notice it. Especially as it happens so much.
3
5
u/Oisinlaighin Ireland Leinster 13d ago
I think there’s still time for redemption but Joey Carbery is one for me unfortunately.
He was the golden boy, wanted to play at 10 (which isn’t his best position) and when he left for Munster he was found out.
I hope he proves me wrong.
→ More replies (5)5
u/Dentury- Leicester Tigers 13d ago
When I saw him against New Zealand in Chicago I thought he was the real deal. I still think there's a very good player who needs first XV rugby to develop.
7
10
u/crazycal123 English Bastard 13d ago
Billy Vunipola in the world cup
20
u/CptDobby 13d ago
Not "found out" as much as "past it". He got into that 23 on reputation alone and arguably cost us the game.
5
7
u/Outrageous-Sky-3664 England 13d ago
Not sure it’s counts as being ‘found out’ as he was comfortably best 8 in the world for a good few years
2
2
u/recklessluke Crusaders 13d ago
Luke McAlister was garbage at the 2007 world cup
→ More replies (1)
860
u/adhd1309 Ireland 13d ago
Stuart Hogg was found to be a horrible cunt.