r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • 1d ago

Cancer Study finds many doctors disregard wishes of cancer patients. Frequently, patients with advanced cancer simply want to be made as comfortable as possible as they wind down their final days. Many of these patients are receiving treatment focused on extending their lives rather than easing their pain.

https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2025/08/26/cancer-patients-treatment-wishes-study/7921756217134/
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u/Harak_June 1d ago

Not surprised. I had to report my dad's hospice nurse for trying to withhold pain meds. "God wants each of us awake and aware of our loved ones as long as we can be. These just put him to sleep."

So even in end of life care, you have people who will ignore patient's wishes for their own agenda/beliefs.

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u/trying-to-be-kind 1d ago

Same thing happened to my aunt. Hospice nurses tried to withhold pain meds "because she might get addicted". What, for the two weeks she had left?

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u/deedeeEightyThree 1d ago

Makes me wonder if they weren't taking them themselves. Dark thought, but yeah. I hope someone's around to advocate for me when I pass.

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u/MechanicalBootyquake 1d ago

It’s called Drug Diversion and it’s a fairly common occurrence.

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u/lostshell 1d ago

Exactly what I thought. Bill for the drugs while pocketing them. The only witness to testify she never got them is going to be dead in a few weeks.

Drug diversion is a straight up euphemism created by the industry to hide what it is. Theft and fraud.

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u/curraheee 1d ago

How about torture as well?

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u/wh4tth3huh 23h ago

The Mother Theresa approach.

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u/doogles 1d ago

This would be the sort of thing that CMS investigates, but not for long.

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u/GoatCovfefe 1d ago

Correct. Sometimes things are called other things.

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u/RedditAtWorkIsBad 22h ago

Exactly. Have a doctor friend who has also performed lots of end of life care. She says nurses do this all the time with the C2 and C3 medications.

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u/dustytaper 17h ago

My uncle wanted to die at home. We were given instructions how to medicate him, and enough morphine to get him through to Monday.

That same day, family from out of town came to visit. When I went to give him his 8 pm dose, it was all gone. They took everything

Luckily it was a very small town, and we have long known the pharmacist. He opened up the shop and gave us enough ampules to get through the week. And I’m forever grateful

Anyone can steal a dying persons meds

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u/R1ckMartel 21h ago

This is not terribly easy with automated dispensing cabinets. It happens, but they always leave a trail because the next person accessing that drawer has to do a blind count that, if incorrect, triggers a discrepancy. And since all access is triggered by a biometric login or the user's sign in and password, you have a log of every person who accessed the system and when.

The more likely case would be them falsely charting meds they gave, but you can detect anomalous trends there too.

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u/SecurityTheaterNews 16h ago

The more likely case would be them falsely charting meds they gave

My wife is a retired charge nurse. She sneers and calls it "Creative Charting." Says it happens all the time.

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u/Tim-Sylvester 23h ago

I've known a pharmacist or two that would "accidentally" flick a few pills into their apron here and there, only to "discover" them after their shift.

Actually nearly every pharmacist I knew in college was into something.

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u/SecurityTheaterNews 16h ago

Actually nearly every pharmacist I knew in college was into something.

I have a case open right now [my complaint] with my state's Pharmacy Board about something like this.

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u/DatTF2 13h ago

I have a friend that was a pharmacist and he definitely liked recreational substances every once in a while. While he obviously enjoyed the effects of some of these substances he actually was really interested in the science and pharmacokinetics of them.

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u/GrossGuroGirl 1d ago

Dark thought 

I would honestly rather find out they were stealing for themselves than that they chose to go into end-of-life care while secretly harboring insane ideas about dying people not needing pain medicine. 

One of those is selfishness from a substance disorder. The other seems like premeditated torture. 

I can at least make sense of the first one - who devotes their life to withholding medicine from hospice patients? 

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u/jestina123 1d ago

Mother Teresa

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u/Protean_Protein 1d ago

Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu the Albanian, withholding comfort and care because “saving souls” is what really matters. Horrible person literally canonized by a sick death cult.

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u/HughJorgens 1d ago edited 22h ago

Yep her famous 'Hospital' was just a place for people to suffer then die. They weren't trying to cure anybody. And didn't her Nobel Prize money get kept and not used there? Edit: It was basically a painful Hospice. They did provide basic medical care like bandages and cleaning bedpans and stuff, they just made no attempt to get anybody better. Somebody Dm'd me then deleted the comment or something and said that the money thing was false. They sent a link to a r/badhistory thread. It says basically that the accusations are unproven. So a better level of believability than the accuser, but still not settled completely.

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u/Protean_Protein 1d ago

Malcolm Muggeridge was one of the main concocters of the mythos around her, and a billion Catholics ate up the idea that she was “helping the poor in India”—presumably most of them innocently believed that that meant giving them access to proper medical care. But all it was was proselytizing and glorying in suffering.

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u/GrossGuroGirl 1d ago

Excellent example, and exactly my point - I'd hope she was an extreme outlier, and not that a meaningful segment of the people working in end-of-life care are just... like that. 

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u/just_a_wolf 1d ago

Claims against Mother Theresa are not substantiated. https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/s/fIIKbUiNJG

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u/Tough_Money_958 1d ago

DEA devotes their life to withholding any joy from people and possibly is responsible of described scenario.

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u/BarbequedYeti 1d ago

They were....  have seen it 100 times before working in healthcare. Its so common they have their own treatment programs just for nurses and doctors who are addicts. 

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u/Katyafan 18h ago

That are secret so they can avoid any consequences and go back to screwing their patients if they want to.

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u/Aware-Complaint793 1d ago

They very likely were taking them.

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u/Pornfest 1d ago

I mean, we have seen an incredible amount of projection from…some less than savory political leaders in recent years.

All humans do it, but I’m just saying that in the last couple of years I’ve become highly aware of conservative-valued people with lots of moral outrage on some subject, almost always are guilty of that very thing.

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u/TheRussianCabbage 1d ago

Honestly probably not dark enough. They were probably selling them to a street dealer.

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u/bedbuffaloes 1d ago

Had to be. I've cared for two family members in hospice and witnessed a few others and NO ONE ever discouraged or withheld pain meds. They were always there for us to administer when we felt necessary.

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u/DarthArtero 1d ago

Understandable why you think that's a dark thought....

Unfortunately it does happen. I've no idea how common it is, just know it does happen.

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u/Electronic_Sign_322 18h ago

If no one is there to advocate for you then you are screwed. Don’t be poor/vulnerable and your chances of being abused are so much lower. If poor/vulnerable, then hopefully awareness of the risk will at least make it less likely to happen. I just hope for good things.

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u/finewalecorduroy 20h ago

When my dad was in hospice when he was dying of cancer, someone in the facility stole the fentanyl patch off his body. Then they accused my mom of stealing it, which was unreal.

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u/tequilablackout 19h ago

Those drugs are accounted for by the pharmacy. They have to go somewhere.

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u/HovercraftStock4986 15h ago

honestly less dark than just withholding them for some personal ideological reason

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u/All_will_be_Juan 12h ago

Drug addiction among nursing staff is so common we have programs for getting addicts back to work while safely monitoring them for deviant behavior

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u/Few-Emergency-3521 12h ago

Oh, almost certainly.

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u/Vast_Cauliflower_547 6h ago

Ding ding ding

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u/Ekyou 1d ago

My mom is in Palative Care for end stage COPD, one of the main reasons for that is so that she can, in theory, take all the bad-for-you meds without worry about long term risk.

She gets handed pain pills like candy (which she doesn’t even need that much of), but she got a new PCP or psychiatrist (I can’t quite remember) who was just absolutely adamant that she wasn’t going to give my mom any more Xanax. It wasn’t because of opioid interactions or anything, they just didn’t like benzos on principle.

And… I get it. But. MY MOM IS DYING. SHE HAS PANIC ATTACKS BECAUSE THE CONSTANT FEELING OF DYING IS REALLY SCARY. I don’t care if she’s a Xanax addict for the last year of her life, just give her her happy pills.

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u/Acceptable-Produce41 1d ago

How long ago was this? I work in healthcare and we just received a memo that states that they are now putting blocks to avoid having doctors prescribe their patients benzos while they are taking opiates. Something about research showing it has bad outcomes, but part of the exceptions i saw was cancer patients and hospice. Last few years i have seen how regulated controlled substances are to the point that it is becoming hard for ppl to get proper pain treatment.

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u/Ekyou 1d ago

That’s the thing is that there are potentially lethal interactions between morphine and Xanax, and if that were their fear, we would understand completely. But they said they weren’t concerned about the interaction because my mom only takes a very low dosage of morphine for air hunger. They just thought Xanax was too addictive.

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u/Killfile 20h ago

I don't know what the hell "air hunger" is but it sounds like the beginnings of a gritty Sci-Fi franchise

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u/Enlightened_Gardener 18h ago

Its when your oxygen levels drop because you can’t breathe properly. You end up feeling like you need to gasp for air the whole time.

When it gets bad, you feel like you’re drowning, even with high flow oxygen on.

Its distressing, as you can imagine, and a little morphine stops that distress.

This is how my grandfather died. He spent the last year of his life sleeping bolt upright in an armchair, hooked up to oxygen. Been a smoker since he was 9.

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u/KristiiNicole 1d ago

More like the last decade, this unfortunately isn’t new. You can thank the DEA and CDC for how bad it’s gotten.

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u/dnyank1 1d ago

Tough luck if you have anxiety and break your arm, I guess

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u/cannotfoolowls 1d ago

You got opoids when you broke you arm? I had to weather it with OTC meds.

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u/[deleted] 23h ago

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u/Rainbow_Sunshine101 1d ago

How many times can Americans do 180s on benzodiazepines and opioids? Older doctors must get a little kick on benzos where states had widespread complaining both ways often within the same decades.

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u/Bladelink 23h ago

Last few years i have seen how regulated controlled substances are to the point that it is becoming hard for ppl to get proper pain treatment.

We can probably blame the Sackler family and the opioid epidemic for that

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u/Rainbow_Sunshine101 23h ago

It's a chicken and egg thing because before them and other Pharma/patient group lobbying in the 1980s doctors were often even more stingy then they are currently with opioids.

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u/volyund 1d ago

What is a worse outcome than imminent death?

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u/Swiftierest 1d ago

Sounds like a good time to threaten to report that unprofessional person to a board and request a new PCP/psychiatrist who will be able to meet the needs of the patient.

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u/KCBaker1989 9h ago

Happened to my mom too, doctor was worried about her getting addicted to Xanax. Really frustrating when all you want to do is make sure they are okay the last months they have.

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u/WeenyDancer 1d ago

 One of my parents had advanced terminal cancer, in hospice, given 'days, weeks, we don't know'', and they wouldn't manage pain with opiods for the same reason. Who tf cares?! 

I will die on this hill that we have swung way too far in the other direction for pain management.

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u/SirEDCaLot 16h ago edited 4h ago

You are entirely correct.

We've thrown the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. It's all nice to say get addicts off pills, problem is those pills exist for a damn good reason. The people with chronic pain, like real chronic pain, oxycontin can enable a much better quality of life. I know such a person. They took oxycontin for a year or two and it was hugely helpful, then had to stop because 'them pills is dangerous we gotta put you on something safer'. Now their pain level is significantly higher, they're on an overall higher morphine equivalent dose, and they have lower quality of life.

If it wasn't for medical cannabis that person would have essentially no quality of life at all.

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u/Ketamine_Dreamsss 23h ago

Hospice is about comfort. Those nurses were derelict and should be reported.

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u/TheTeflonDude 1d ago

As a caregiver in hospice I’ve lost counts of times the family of loved ones have withheld pain meds for that very reason

My ward has gotten in trouble for “giving too much” pain meds

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u/Katyafan 17h ago

Why does the family get any say?

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u/ZZ9ZA 17h ago

Because they have medical power of attorney and the patient is often not coherent or able to communicate by that point.

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u/Katyafan 16h ago

I'm glad other countries do it differently. It shouldn't be a thing that someone can just say "no" to someone else's pain medication, if the medical professionals think they need it, and they are clearly in pain. POAs are supposed to act in the person's best interest, doing what they would have wanted. This goes contrary to the whole idea.

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u/Swiftierest 1d ago

I watched a Kurzgesagt video (science channel on YouTube I would link, but that's apparently a no-go here even when it is relevant and scientific in nature) where they explained why fentynal felt so good, but was a trash drug because the addiction rate and whatnot ruin your body forever.

If I'm dying, not believing in any immortal omnipotent being, shoot me so high that I see a non-existant god and make peace with them. Literally this video just made me think that everyone should be absurdly high on opioids during their final moments.

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u/PurpleSailor 21h ago

Those caretakers shouldn't be hospice workers. One of the main purposes of hospice is making a patients final days as comfortable as possible.

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u/chapterpt 1d ago

If pain meds are prescribed by a doctor and controlled by nursing staff, addiction isnt a risk. 

Physical dependence is a thing, but again if the order is respected as written by a doctor then at worst a person is tapered off.

The distress protocol that is typically scapolomine, dilaudid, and versed injected sub cue is common and ive administered it. When it risks letting the person check out without pain, typically a nurse finishing shift will push the meds and leave the unit.

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u/TantalusComputes2 1d ago

No idea what you mean by your last sentence

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u/Noctew 1d ago

It means: you give a cocktail that helps with the symptoms of actively dying, but also can push the patient over the edge of death, and you donʼt want to be near the patient then if youʼd have to resuscitate them. Youʼd want to find them later when they have peacefully passed away and it is too late for resuscitation.

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u/izzittho 1d ago

I presume this means when you know it’s what they want but might face some issues making it happen if you did it before end of shift, like if they don’t have their DNR or have family that would want you to ignore it but you know it wouldn’t be worth it to make them suffer a resuscitation and they’d agree?

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u/VRTemjin 1d ago

Euthanasia is taboo, so this is the nurses granting that mercy with plausible deniability.

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u/WeenyDancer 1d ago

It means they kill the patient.

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u/lost-picking-flowers 19h ago edited 8h ago

It means they give them the pain meds they need to be comfortable. Sometimes that dose is enough to push an already dying person over the edge. My grandma just died in hospice and she was in so much pain that we had to have her moved to a place with access to the heavy duty meds mentioned above. She willingly ceased her life saving meds to enter hospice, and when someone is so ill and in so much pain it becomes really important to make them comfortable - it takes precedence over literally everything, and I know my grandma chose hospice to die on her own terms with dignity and above all, comfort.

I’m not sure if this is what happened with her, but if it did no one in my family would look at the nurses like they killed her. She was there to receive as much pain control as she needed, and she wanted that desperately.

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u/sadi89 1d ago

I do this for a living and have specific education in end of life and I’ve never heard of that cocktail. Those are all common drugs used for comfort at end of life but not given at the same time. These also don’t tend to the first line of treatment in the area that I live in.

This may be more common in an ICU setting? I’ve never worked in that environment so I can’t speak.

These meds are routinely given throughout a shift, not just at the end. Sometimes patients die shortly after administration of opioid medication sometimes they don’t. It’s more coincidence than anything else, these patients are at the very end of life and are going to die with or without medication.

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u/Enlightened_Gardener 18h ago

My great grandfather died this way. His family doctor told his wife to let the family know to say goodbye today. When he had the opportunity to say goodbye to his brothers and childrenand whatnot, the doctor gave him an enormous shot of morphine “to keep him comfortable” and he passed in his sleep.

I personally think it’s a kindness, but it needs to be legislated and controlled or you end up with people like Fred West….

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u/SecurityTheaterNews 16h ago

I heard a story about a cancer patient that was going home to die. The doctor gave him some morphine patches and said "Now Andy, don't put these patches on all at once, it will kill you."

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u/gorgon_heart 20h ago

When my Mom was on hospice, I asked one of our nurses (we were at home, so we had a couple that would come by) about her morphine dose. The nurse basically said, "What harm can you really do at this point?"

Was also horrified to learn that some people will steal the end of life pain meds for people, even family members. It makes me want to puke. I wouldn't even take my Mom's THC products, even when she offered them to me. That is her medicine.

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u/cluelesssquared 20h ago

They used to not medicate NICU babies for the same reason. We were asked if our child could have them, because other parents said no, and I'm like yes, that's evil not to.

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u/Same_Lack_1775 1d ago

Both of these nurses should be in jail.

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u/an_african_swallow 23h ago

Someone in HOSPICE care might develop an addiction? God damn that’s stupid

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u/PerpetualFire 21h ago

That's too bad. I know the hospice service in my city gives plentiful fentanyl and versed

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u/Faiths_got_fangs 20h ago

Had this argument with a relative when my mother was dying of brain cancer. Like, she's terminal and on hospice? How addicted can she possibly get?

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u/EusebioFOREVER 1d ago

nurse gives meds as prescribed by MD. Did you address this with the doctor?

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u/trying-to-be-kind 1d ago

Of course we did. The doctor had prescribed them without any issue; this was a case of a couple over-zealous attending nurses who were trying to dissuade the family from "overmedicating" an 85yo dying woman in extreme pain. Doctor was called in, medication was then dispensed...because family members were actively advocating for her at the time.

But what was going on behind the scenes after we left? And how many people have no one advocating for them at all? These are the real problems, unfortunately.

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u/flakemasterflake 1d ago

Ok but that’s clearly not a doctor at fault here. The misleading title refers to MDs

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u/tastyratz 19h ago

Are you talking about the title of the main article not reflecting a redditors reply sharing their experience?

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u/saints21 1d ago edited 1d ago

There's a good bit of leeway in the "prescribed by MD" bit with something like a pain med. Even with drugs keeping someone alive, the nurse is the one titrating them and making adjustments based on patient condition. If they feel the current orders don't allow for enough or they've been able to titrate them down to the point of trying to ween them off, then they go to the doctor and get an order to change dosages or possibly discontinue.

That said, it's freaking hospice. Just give them whatever you can within the orders.

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u/Annual_Strategy_6206 1d ago

Happened to my spouse's Gramma in Florida. So much pain from end stage cancer 

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u/iboneyandivory 16h ago

There was a similar discussion a few years ago about giving hospice patients the option to take (I think is was MDMA-like) drugs that would lessen the anxiety of dying. As I recall religious luminaries at the time were staunchly against the idea, citing some f**ked up version of moral hazard or something. That everyone needs to take death straight up and stone cold sober and that to do otherwise was against God's plan.

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u/Specific_Success214 8h ago

That's the plan! A little quality of life, with what ever time is the most important thing.

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u/megamanxzero35 1d ago

My grandma worried about this when she was dying. We told, grandma you have days left, this isn’t the time to be worried about that.

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u/notmyfault 1d ago

Uhhhh I would have contacted the Board of Nursing. That is wildly unprofessional and unethical.

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u/tyler_t301 1d ago

once that nurse puts god on the phone with the Board, I'm sure this will all get straightened out

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u/mushu_beardie 20h ago

Yeah, if anything that sounds like she could have been stealing them. A lot of nurses steal pain meds.

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u/LongPorkJones 1d ago

My wife is a hospice nurse, and the ones with this mentality are one of the bigger pains in her ass.

Depending on the company or the physician who signs off on orders, hospice nurses can have as much, as little, or more autonomy than nurses in a hospital environment.

Some come in to the field with the same mindset they had in the hospital of restricting X because of Y, while others have a mindset of "If they're in pain, they shouldn't be. If the diabetic wants one Pepsi a week, give them the damn Pepsi - the extra calories help sustain quality of life and it makes them happy. If they're anxious, give them something for it". The latter is the ultimate goal of hospice, maintaing the balance of comfort and quality of life during the dying process. The patient's needs and wishes are paramount.

Then you get fruitcakes like this who try to impose their morals on people who are at the end of their lives. They're the folks who put the biggest black mark on the field. You did the right thing by reporting them. I'm sorry that your family had to deal with that.

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u/Goose_Is_Awesome 1d ago

My experience working as a hospice pharmacist is that most of the time the docs don't even read what they're signing and just sign whatever the nurse sends them.

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u/aris_ada 1d ago

"God does not exist, please fulfill my dad's wishes" would be my answer, but if you are in a catholic hospice you're out of luck, dying in dignity is not possible there.

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u/RobsSister 1d ago

When my mom was dying, I refused to use hospice from any religious-based hospitals. I found an independent hospice who would come to her home or the hospital. They were wonderful; they ensured she was comfortable at all times and not in pain - not ever.

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u/EllipticPeach 1d ago

This happened with my grandfather recently. They were worried that his kidney function might deteriorate if they gave him the pain meds/end of life care that he needed. Which was stupid because his entire body was shutting down anyway. They also refused to place an IV for some reason, even though he physically couldn’t eat or drink or close his mouth at that point. His lips were so dry they were crusty.

I think seeing him in the hospital before he died was genuinely traumatic for me and my family because he was so obviously suffering and the staff were so matter-of-fact about it.

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u/ycaivrp 1d ago

Doctor here. The IV would be against comfort care unless it was running pain meds. You not hydrated over IV at end of life. Ofbhis lips are dry use ice chips. iV fluid will make him more uncomfortable

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u/EllipticPeach 1d ago

Thank you for the clarification.

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u/Cheeze_It 1d ago

My wife was saying this too. My wife is a long time nurse so ... corroboration for Reddit.

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u/Enlightened_Gardener 18h ago

That’s good to know.

Honestly, I know you guys are super busy but it would be so helpful to have a little booklet that explain some of this stuff.

One of the most helpful things I have ever read was a book written quite recently by a palliative care nurse in the UK, that goes over every little tiny thing that happens to a person in hospice. It was actually really comforting and helpful and I feel much more ready to face this decision-making process with my elderly parents when necessary.

But just to have a doctors point of view – I know that we did the sponges with my grandmother, grandfather and Auntie - but I didn’t know about the IV fluids and I was asking at the time. “Why can’t you just give her some IV? She’s thirsty.” and nobody just said “It will make her more uncomfortable”.

That kind of blunt, helpful knowledge is so useful; especially when you’re grieving, running on low sleep, inside an arcane and unknown system, and trying to also comfort the person who is dying, and all your other grieving relatives as well.

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u/ycaivrp 18h ago

I think a lot of hospices have little booklets end educational material. I mean they are not best sellers etc, so maybe people are not getting them. Most hospices have a lot of material for the families. Most hospices nurses should be talking to families about these seemingly contradictory things, like they are not hungry, don't feed them etc. Sorry that wasn't done.

A really good book I recommend to everyone, even if they are like 25, is this book called A Beginner's Guide to the End: Practical Advice for Living Life and Facing Death" by B.J. Miller, MD, and Shoshana Berger

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u/ycaivrp 18h ago

If thonogn about your own your parents care. I recommend this website.e https://prepareforyourcare.org/en/prepare/welcome

It will walk you through things to think about. I ask even my 18 year old patients, if you lose consciousness form whatever and cannot make helathcare decisions who should be it? If you communicated that to that person yet? You would be surprised that a decent percentage is not their parents. So it is always good to think about theses things even if you are young.

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u/sadi89 1d ago

The body does dry out as it dies. That’s part of the process. I’m sorry that they didn’t provide him with lip and mouth moisturizers and water sponges to help with any discomfort he may have been experiencing.

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u/EllipticPeach 1d ago

They actually did provide him with sponges but didn’t use them. They were lying on the table til my mum used them and kept using them the whole time we visited. The day before he died, my dad asked if my grandfather wanted something a bit stronger… he snuck in gramps’ favourite ale and soaked the sponge in it. The look on grandad’s face was totally worth it, he enjoyed every last drop.

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u/sadi89 20h ago

Often the sponges are left for family to use too. I wish someone would have let you know that y’all were welcome to use them. I’m glad your grandad got some of his favorite ale in his last days! I was able to give my dad some hot chocolate while his body was shutting down. He was was a big fan of sweets

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u/WickedLies21 1d ago

Hospice doesn’t do an IV at end of life for many reasons. The first, it’s invasive and painful. The second- the body knows what it’s doing. It’s supposed to dry out before they die. They no longer feel thirst or hunger. If we give IV fluids at end of life, the body cannot process it properly anymore and they end up third spacing the fluid. This means, the fluid swells up all the tissue in the body causing edema and the patient begins to basically drown in fluid in their lungs. It’s an awful way to die. In hospice, we provide mouth swabs and educate family to provide mouth care every 1-2 hours to keep their mouth & lips moist. I’m sorry that the hospital staff did not provide proper mouth care for your loved one.

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u/EllipticPeach 23h ago

We ended up getting the sponges sorted and my dad snuck in his favourite ale the day before he died. It was lovely to see him enjoy it one last time.

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u/WickedLies21 18h ago

I’m glad to hear that. I always encourage my families to use whatever beverage they loved and make sure to star beer, wine, tequila in the list. I have even run out and bought wine for a patient that wanted it on her deathbed. Bought a $20 bottle of red and ran it back to the facility and we began using it on her mouth sponges and she smiled so big at me after that first sip. So worth it.

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u/Pazuuuzu 1d ago

The second- the body knows what it’s doing.

No that is not how it works. The body is clinging to life as best as it can.

It's just the part that regulate fluids already broken down and an IV does not meaningfully help anymore, in fact makes it worse... But the body still trying it's best, with what it still have until the bitter end.

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u/Landohanno 19h ago

Thank you, yes. Too many people here glorifying "the process" like it's some sacred, ordained thing. It is in fact the most vile cruelty, inflicted on a imperfect and struggling organism, that desperately wishes to continue that which it can do no longer.

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u/AmbassadorMental9846 12h ago

I do understand the concept but I'm still a bit haunted by the memory of my mum somehow becoming fully conscious for a few minutes a couple of days before she passed when we were using one of the sponges. It's like she suddenly realised how thirsty she was and panicked sitting up in bed grabbing for the jug of water (at this point she'd been more or less unconscious for 5 days)

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u/watwatinjoemamasbutt 1d ago

Code for so I can steal his pain meds

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u/DatTF2 13h ago

While that may be true I can definitely see some stuck up holier-than-thou people withholding them.

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u/Alklazaris 1d ago

I mean at that point I might as well be home.

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u/saints21 1d ago

Hospice care usually is in-home care. The idea is that you're just getting drugs/care that ease your life as opposed to getting treatment that keeps you alive. Most people with terminal illness prefer it because dying at a hospital sucks ass.

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u/Alklazaris 1d ago

Oh if I know there's nothing to be done I would probably fight to stay out of the hospital unless I'm in so much pain and suffering that I can't move or do anything. I'm sure as hell not going to die without seeing my family first and they won't allow my dog in whose family.

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u/Enlightened_Gardener 18h ago

Actually, it’s better to do it quickly rather than wait. There’s a process which involves you going through a hospital first. At which point you can then ask for palliative care.

If you wait until you’re in so much agony, you can’t function, you’ll be at the mercy of navigating a hospital system while you’re in excruciating pain. And then they will have to do all of the tests and assessments and discuss treatment plans with you, at which point you can try asking for palliative care…

Four better to get yourself in the system swiftly, and then get a social worker or patient advocate or specialist palliative psychologist to walk you through the next part of the process while you’re still compos mentis and able to make decisions on your own behalf.

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u/0L1V14H1CKSP4NT13S 1d ago

Most physicians and medical professionals choose to die in the comfort of their own home. Make of that what you will.

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u/ladeedah1988 1d ago

Because they have proper access to pain relief. My father and a friend died a horrific death at home under home hospice care. I wasn't at the friend, but at my father and hospice did not do their job.

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u/weeb2k1 1d ago

I'm sorry you had to go through that. We were fortunate that my dad's care team was top-notch. He was the one who wanted to fight, while the doctors strongly encourage a palliative approach to make the most out of what time he had left. By the time we were in hospice his care manager basically said our goal was to ensure he felt little to no pain or anxiety . Not once was he denied a drug or treatment that would have made him more comfortable.

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u/CrochetyNurse 1d ago

I tried to make my dad a DNR as they were doing compressions, and a nurse said I can't do that, God has a plan for him. Sure, the plan was for him to be dependent on my mom as caregiver for 7 grueling years.

I have worked oncology for 20 years, and the amount of times I've had to go toe to toe with the doc to tell them to please listen to the patient is really saddening. Luckily there has been a palliative care push with Advanced Care Planning discussions at earlier points of care. Now it's just absent families trying to convince Nana to fight that I have to contend with.

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u/flakemasterflake 1d ago

A nurse isn't a doctor. I find it telling that the headline demonizes doctors and every anecdote references nurses

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u/munchmills 21h ago

But we have no problem putting our beloved pets to sleep if they are sick and in pain.

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u/MsCardeno 1d ago edited 1d ago

I had the opposite experience with my 47 year old mother on hospice.

She would only want pain meds some days so we gave it to her those days. Some days she would feel great and have this bounce of energy. The nurse would visit and ask why we haven’t been giving her the medicine. We said she hasn’t asked for it. She said we should be giving her the full dosage every day.

They convinced us to put her in respite care so my sister and I could have a break. She was dead 3 days later. I truly believe it’s bc they gave her the pain meds at full dosage.

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u/pantsattack 1d ago edited 1d ago

Firstly, I’m sorry for your loss and for the way the facility handled this.

But I need you to know: pain meds aren’t going to kill someone like that unless it’s an overdose or unusual reaction. And her vitals should have been measured for any reaction to the drugs. Your mother was in hospice. Even if she had lively days; she was going to die at some point. The drugs were almost certainly not the reason.

I’d be more concerned about the nurse not listening to what makes a patient most comfortable and if that somehow maybe led to a decision or (accidental) oversight that expedited your mother’s death. But, unfortunately, there’s no way to know for sure.

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u/MsCardeno 1d ago

Her heart was weak yes. She was going to die soon, yes. These things are true. The pain meds slowing your heart rate also helps speed up the process is also true.

I’m not saying they did anything wrong. I’m just saying my experience was very different than the one I was responding to.

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u/WickedLies21 1d ago

I’m a hospice nurse and have been for the last 4 years. Pain medication doesn’t speed up death. This is a very common misconception and very untrue. It doesn’t speed up or slow down the process, it just makes the dying process less painful. Any time that you move a patient- from home to a respite facility, or respite to home, we often see a significant decline in patients. When a patient is transitioning, we do not recommend transferring them at all due to this. Even a stable patient, can begin a significant decline after a move. I would blame her decline potentially on the move but I can guarantee it wasn’t the pain meds.

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u/cchoe1 23h ago

Why does moving a patient cause significant decline?

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u/MamaNyxieUnderfoot 22h ago

People who are already in a fragile state don’t handle having their entire world upended like that. Going from familiar surroundings, people, and routines to new surroundings, new people, and entirely different routines is extremely stressful for someone who is medically fragile.

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u/MarsupialMisanthrope 19h ago

That, and patients often seem to wait until they’re alone to pass. A transition from home hospice to respite gives them a chance.

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u/WickedLies21 18h ago

I don’t know the true scientific underlying causes but I have seen it happen over and over again. I warn my families about. I had one patient with liver cancer who was super stable. He was moving cross county a week after coming onto services and I warned his daughter about this phenomenon. He died 10 days after the move and prior to that, he could have had months of life left. But he wanted to be in his childhood home with his family around him when he died so moving and taking the risk was more important to him, so we made it happen. I think it’s because the body is already fighting so many battles at end of life and what we think is a simple process, is actually very difficult on their mind and body. You think, they’re just lying in a stretcher or sitting in a wheelchair, they didn’t even do anything but that simple process just depletes their energy stores and sometimes they cannot recover.

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u/pantsattack 1d ago

I think both your comment and the one you responded to both show the sad results when doctors/nurses don’t listen to their patients. Modern medicine is proof of the value of science, but modern hospitals and health care are truly awful and unfair sometimes.

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u/schizboi 1d ago

Im sorry but your mother was in hospice, the meds arent what killed her. Obviously this is a personal thing and im not trying to argue with you or change your mind, but I think you can let this go or consider it. It was nobodies fault, just time.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/IrrelevantPuppy 1d ago

I guarantee you that on her death bed the pain was different and god would understand. 

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u/ShotFromGuns 22h ago

"God wants each of us awake and aware of our loved ones as long as we can be. These just put him to sleep."

I see Mother Theresa is back from the dead and in hospice care now.

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u/SinkCat69 20h ago

I’ve seen doctors try to wean people off benzos and opioids near the end of their lives. Nothing like having your last memories be filled with pain, agony, and fear.

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u/ByTheHammerOfThor 1d ago edited 17h ago

“God told me to call the police for refusing medical care and report you to the state immediately.”

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u/endlessbottles 20h ago

Can you request that interaction to be documented in the 's chart?

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u/localproblem81 1d ago

She prob wanted to eat them herself

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u/sv21js 1d ago

That’s shocking in a hospice setting. I’m so sorry they didn’t understand their duty to your father.

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u/Overtilted 1d ago

I sure am glad I live in a country with decent palliative care and the option of euthanasia.

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u/okram2k 1d ago

I used to work for a hospice pharmacy and I saw the cocktail of drugs most people get as they die. And while I appreciate being doped up while your body is in that much pain part of me is quite afraid of passing away without any lucidity at all.

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u/bghanoush 1d ago

Wow, they do not need to be a hospice nurse. I hope there were repercussions for them.

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u/Tolvat 23h ago

I'm a nurse and I'm sorry to hear that happened to your father. I am always pushing as much analgesia that's safe and won't kill someone immediately. If their physician gives me a range for medication I'm usually giving the upper range when I know it's only a matter of time.

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u/numberonealcove 23h ago

Evil incarnate.

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u/DishsoapOnASponge Grad Student | Physics | Nanoscience 20h ago

I was my mom's in-home hospice caretaker near the end, and I want the WHOLE WORLD to know: if you can have a family member take care of you at home instead of a nurse in a facility, you absolutely should. The difference between the "prescribed dose" and what ACTUALLY made my mom comfortable was huge. I don't believe she would have been comfortable in a hospice facility.

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u/notyourstranger 1d ago

the non-scientific approach so often is the most cruel approach. Scientist invented pain meds - that's a huge contribution to humankind. Then some cultist refuses to dispense it.

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u/__-_-_--_--_-_---___ 1d ago

Catholic hospital?

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u/Starskeet 23h ago

Someone really internalized that chapter from "to kill a mockingbird".

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u/manimal28 20h ago

That’s the opposite of what I heard, in that hospice was essentially helping people to perform assisted suicide under the guise of pain management. Guess it all depends on the nurse.

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u/Anach 19h ago

I've been lucky to have sensible doctors in the times I've had to deal with losing loved-ones, as has my wife with her father. The doctors gave them as much as they wanted to be comfortable, and they simply went to sleep, not to wake up. If I had to encounter a person like above, I doubt I'd be happy. I have to deal with chronic pain, and at times it's bad enough, that It reminds me that at some point, you become desperate for it to end, and to ignore those wishes, you have to be an especially bad type of narcissist.

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u/aleksandrjames 18h ago

I’d love to see a world where Politicians and anyone in medical field are all atheists.

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u/ShiraCheshire 18h ago

Ah yes the famous bible passage where it stops and goes "Oh and by the way, some day we're going to concentrate medicinal herbs down into a purer form and create small orbs from them. Some of these will make you sleepy. Dying people can't have any of the sleepy orbs, that's super important, write that one down."

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u/Tangentkoala 16h ago

Hypothetically speaking, that's a lawsuit in itself. That's negligence and can even be considered medical malpractice.

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u/RawrRRitchie 12h ago

And I would've said. Okay keep your beliefs out of this room and give him the damn painkillers. You're paid to do a job and you're not doing it"

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u/Either_Reflection_78 11h ago edited 11h ago

That is so sick. These types of people should not be allowed to work in these fields. They are clearly getting off on seeing someone suffering and in pain. No one should suffer. Especially when they are at the end of life.

Pain meds are very important and necessary, especially for those who are truly suffering and are near the end.

Some very sick folks work in the healthcare industry. I have witnessed it myself. Very scary times we are living in.

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u/endosurgery 10h ago

About 20 years ago or so I had diagnosed a patient with metastatic cancer who had no therapeutic options at this point. He was stuck in the hospital awaiting hospice to be set up for him at home and just wanted a cold beer with his dinner. Most hospitals have beer available for alcoholics to prevent DTs. I ordered beer with his meals prn and had to fight with the nursing staff to give him the beer. It has everything to do with the staffs own “morals” and nothing else. She didn’t think he should drink alcohol therefore he can’t have it. It’s the same with pain meds. You see it with many other situations and is becoming more prevalent as we enable flat earth, anti vaccination, extreme religious folks without repercussions.

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u/13thmurder 8h ago

Why do we still tolerate religion? It should be completely acceptable and expected to shame people who use it to harm others.

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