r/southafrica • u/allthisjusttocomment • Mar 19 '18

Redditor provides counter-argument to documentary about South Africa's "Reverse Apartheid"

/r/Documentaries/comments/856hzq/south_africa_a_reversed_apartheid_2018_a/dvvwfcy/?context=3
41 Upvotes

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u/beeswaxx Mar 19 '18 edited Mar 19 '18

the other problem with "reverse apartheid" is simply that the current situation is nowhere near apartheid... must be mostly kids that never actually seen the impact or living conditions of actual apartheid.

playing second fiddle to a black person when going to a job interview is somehow the same as a black person being considered less than human and not given any opportunities. plus, i do not know of a single white person that worked hard in school and studied hard and after all that were denied all job opportunities (in a field that actually has demand).

people always go on about how black people didn't study during apartheid and rather spent time protesting or doing nothing. why study when you can't get a decent job due to being black?

edit* oh and another argument against BEE i've heard quite a lot is that "my great grandfather worked till he bled and cried to provide for his family, nothing was given to him". maybe so, i know afrikaners were dirt poor during the 20's-50's, my great grand father included. they were, however, given land and the opportunity to work, i.e they COULD work their asses off to make a living.

black people were denied that, even if they wanted to work their ass off they couldn't

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '18

playing second fiddle to a black person when going to a job interview is somehow the same as a black person being considered less than human and not given any opportunities. plus, i do not know of a single white person that worked hard in school and studied hard and after all that were denied all job opportunities (in a field that actually has demand).

It's not, but at what point will it have served it's purpose as a measure to address inequality and instead become a form of discrimination?

How will we ever reach equality when population statistics look like these? Combine this with the rampant corruption and gross mismanagement of the ANC and the answer is never. That's why some white people look at it the way they do.

given land and the opportunity to work

That's pretty sweet. My grandparents had to buy their land unfortunately.

Things would have also gone better if black people back in the day actually tried to treat honestly with the white settlers, you know as opposed to betraying and brutally killing them. The battle of Bloodriver was the result of such a case.

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u/Space_Christ13 Mar 19 '18

Lol talking about how black people must just get over apartheid then are salty about bloedrivier XD

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '18

Yes

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u/Calmdownplease Mar 19 '18

I feel like your comment deserves a reply as it has a number of issues that I would disagree on or can provide a view on:

It's not, but at what point will it have served it's purpose as a measure to address inequality and instead become a form of discrimination?

At the point where we can see meaningful, self sustained improvement in the lives of people who systematically fucked up by a government. That last point is the key. A government went about applying its mind and resources to oppressing a race. It is right that this government, or any future government systematically looks to redress that.

How will we ever reach equality when population statistics look like these?

Yes the majority of people in this country are black. It is difficult but it can be done if everyone works at it. That stat about the black middle class being as big as the white population is a good example of success. It may seem like a mountain but frankly 50 million people is a tiny amount compared to larger countries. India and China have set about trying to lift their people out of poverty, we should too with no excuses.

That's pretty sweet. My grandparents had to buy their land unfortunately.

Thats lekker, so did mine. Problem was my grandparents had to buy in shitty areas, at inflated pricing while locked out of finance and the best employment. That idea of lacking the opportunity to work is also important. Any kid, white or black that comes to my office with the right skill set and mind set can get a chance at a role. I have young white kids and black kids at my office. EE is a reality but it isn't a career death sentence.

Things would have also gone better if black people back in the day actually tried to treat honestly with the white settlers, you know as opposed to betraying and brutally killing them.

Great point, if this sub is anything to go by a bunch of angry black dudes wearing red berets are coming to take away Afrikaans farms shortly. I would love to see the guys who sit down with them for a peaceful discussion over a cup of tea while the work out how to cede their land. That's not the way these things work man.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '18

At the point where we can see meaningful, self sustained improvement in the lives of people who systematically fucked up by a government. That last point is the key. A government went about applying its mind and resources to oppressing a race. It is right that this government, or any future government systematically looks to redress that.

Yes Apartheid was evil and bad as it has been said ad infinitum, but that justification is wearing razor thin with the way things are going. Referring to population statistics again. My question still stands. How do you ever reach that point when the majority keeps growing in such a rapid and unsustainable manner? How will economic growth and job creation ever catch up when driven by a corrupt and inept government? I ask because I genuinely don't know.

Yes the majority of people in this country are black. It is difficult but it can be done if everyone works at it. That stat about the black middle class being as big as the white population is a good example of success. It may seem like a mountain but frankly 50 million people is a tiny amount compared to larger countries. India and China have set about trying to lift their people out of poverty, we should too with no excuses.

And I am happy to see that the black community's quality of life improved. I hope it continues to do so. 50 million is small compared to other countries, but there is no need for us to bloat our population needlessly like it's doing now.

Any kid, white or black that comes to my office with the right skill set and mind set can get a chance at a role. I have young white kids and black kids at my office. EE is a reality but it isn't a career death sentence.

Except that there are no incentives to hire white employees. It's situational and might not affect your business. It does however affect most major businesses and those that have contractual ties to the government. Apartheid wasn't a death sentence either, does that make it any better?

Great point, if this sub is anything to go by a bunch of angry black dudes wearing red berets are coming to take away Afrikaans farms shortly. I would love to see the guys who sit down with them for a peaceful discussion over a cup of tea while the work out how to cede their land. That's not the way these things work man.

This sub is not representative of SA or Africa in general. These debates are dominated by emotion more than rationale, hence why we even consider going Zimbabwe 2.0. The ANC has handled our social problems since the end of Apartheid with about as much tact as a truck full of dynamite reversing at full speed into an incinerator. There is no evidence suggesting improvement.

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u/Calmdownplease Mar 19 '18

All good points so let me try to respond best as I can:

How will economic growth and job creation ever catch up when driven by a corrupt and inept government? I ask because I genuinely don't know.

Short answer is that it will not under the government approaches that have been adopted. There are many examples of countries that have done well to lift themselves out of the poverty trap (Singapore and South Korea come to mind). A pre-requisite though is a government that understands its role and doesnt fuck with the education system.

Frankly, education is the only lever we have to lift ourselves out and we have fucked around with the education system too much. SADTU is also a chain around the neck of the schooling system. Without educating our population right quickly we will be stuck in the position we are in. It is not easy but it is very possible.

Apartheid wasn't a death sentence either, does that make it any better?

It was a career death sentence in that you could not aspire to middle management or above as a person of colour. Yours was a life of a labourer. Either way though yes there are no incentives to hire white, nor should they be. There should be no hard blocks either.

The ANC has handled our social problems since the end of Apartheid with about as much tact as a truck full of dynamite reversing at full speed into an incinerator.

You wont find an argument here. They have screwed the pooch.

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '18

Short answer is that it will not under the government approaches that have been adopted. There are many examples of countries that have done well to lift themselves out of the poverty trap (Singapore and South Korea come to mind). A pre-requisite though is a government that understands its role and doesnt fuck with the education system.

Frankly, education is the only lever we have to lift ourselves out and we have fucked around with the education system too much. SADTU is also a chain around the neck of the schooling system. Without educating our population right quickly we will be stuck in the position we are in. It is not easy but it is very possible.

That is my big gripe regarding the situation. If the government isn't alleviating black poverty to the best of it's ability and the electorate aren't curbing their rapid and unsustainable population growth then they are ensuring the existence of black poverty indefinitely and thereby also ensuring exclusionary policies like BEE indefinitely. I get that it's over exaggerating to say it's "reverse-Apartheid", but at what point is still Apartheids fault if the victims are contributing massively to inequality themselves?

The countries you mentioned have proven that it's possible to fix the situation. The politicians so love a poorly educated voting base because how else would they be able peddle lies?

It was a career death sentence in that you could not aspire to middle management or above as a person of colour. Yours was a life of a labourer. Either way though yes there are no incentives to hire white, nor should they be. There should be no hard blocks either.

Yes there shouldn't be any incentives and that is fine, but it can't continue indefinitely like it's doing now. The public sector is filled with hard blocks. The same principle applies to African only subsidizing such bursaries etc.

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u/beeswaxx Mar 19 '18 edited Mar 19 '18

It's not, but at what point will it have served it's purpose as a measure to address inequality and instead become a form of discrimination?

you think a decade or so of slight benefits can magically rectify hundreds of years of oppression? shit, apartheid was so recent that i still have older people calling me 'baas' at petrol stations

That's pretty sweet. My grandparents had to buy their land unfortunately.

that's pretty sweet, and unlike black people they got the deed signed no problem, hey?

Things would have also gone better if black people back in the day actually tried to treat honestly with the white settlers, you know as opposed to betraying and brutally killing them.

yeah, sure was a one way street, hey?

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '18

Go ahead and masturbate about Apartheid until you think it's going to solve things all while absolving the oppressed of all their faults. Perhaps if you masturbate hard enough you'll look like right past state capture, the black population explosion, unrealistic populist ideals, communism and tribal leaders who didn't even want to negotiate honestly. Oh and add gross mismanagement to the list.

that's pretty sweet, and unlike black people they got the deed signed no problem, hey?

Yes after they had to buy it of course. Or perhaps that's what you originally meant by given?

yeah, sure was a one way street, hey?

That clever Dingane signed the deal, invited them over for a performance and had them beaten to death like coward after they were heavily outnumbered with their guard lowered.

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u/beeswaxx Mar 19 '18

Go ahead and masturbate about Apartheid until you think it's going to solve things all while absolving the oppressed of all their faults. Perhaps if you masturbate hard enough you'll look like right past state capture, the black population explosion, unrealistic populist ideals, communism and tribal leaders who didn't even want to negotiate honestly. Oh and add gross mismanagement to the list.

no one here is seriously justifying the ANC's behavior, this is about white people complaining about reverse apartheid and not being given equal opportunities. and it's partly because of people like you, who belittle the impact of apartheid, that black people hate white people still.

Yes after they had to buy it of course. Or perhaps that's what you originally meant by given?

Yes, plenty of dirt poor afrikaners were GIVEN land in the early 20th century. it was a scheme where you could work on building the railway and then receive a piece of land as part of your compensation. i know this because my grandfather's cousin's family was a beneficiary of this scheme.

That clever Dingane signed the deal, invited them over for a performance and had them beaten to death like coward after they were heavily outnumbered with their guard lowered.

you keep mentioning specific events where the zulu's attacked unjustly, i'm saying that there were PLENTY of atrocities committed by the white folks in those days

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '18

no one here is seriously justifying the ANC's behavior, this is about white people complaining about reverse apartheid and not being given equal opportunities. and it's partly because of people like you, who belittle the impact of apartheid, that black people hate white people still.

And I'm fed up with Apartheid being used as a shield by the ruling party and the majority as a justification for how things are going, all while public funds which are supposed to be used to empower black people is being ransacked. SOEs like SAA is making losses numbering in billions, Zuma gets a house worth R245,000,000, questionable Gupta vat refund released of R70,000,000, the arms deal etc.

If the parties the majority kept voting for earnestly tried to uplift black people then I would have a lot more empathy.

Yes, plenty of dirt poor afrikaners were GIVEN land in the early 20th century. it was a scheme where you could work on building the railway and then receive a piece of land as part of your compensation. i know this because my grandfather's cousin's family was a beneficiary of this scheme.

Then they didn't just get the land anyway. They still had to pay in one form or another.

you keep mentioning specific events where the zulu's attacked unjustly, i'm saying that there were PLENTY of atrocities committed by the white folks in those days

And I'm not saying the settlers were saints, but black people did their part to ensure that race relations went to hell long before Apartheid.

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u/beeswaxx Mar 19 '18 edited Mar 19 '18

Again, no one is justifying state capture. I am criticizing white people who somehow think they are under reverse apartheid.

Then they didn't just get the land anyway. They still had to pay in one form or another.

again, the point is that they COULD work for money and land while black people COULD NOT. plus the compensation was disproportional, they got the land to help them start up since they could not afford it. They had to work, but it was still worth more than the work they did. it was a government subsidiary.

And I'm not saying the settlers were saints, but black people did their part to ensure that race relations went to hell long before Apartheid.

so black people are at fault for being treated like animals? if black people were all friendly and hippy-like they would have been treated as equals? you really are delusional.

All over the globe, white people plundered, slaughtered and imprisoned the indigenous people: native americans, aztecs, incas, aborigines, tribes all over africa, asia, literally everywhere. but according to your logic it's the hostile natives that started the fire, not the gentle white settlers who might have made a few mistakes, but nothing compared to the savage locals!

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u/Pm_me_de_steam_codes Mar 20 '18 edited Mar 20 '18

Queue the Zulu tribe, one of the most violent and blood thirsty peoples on the globe, pre-colonization and post-colonization.

No one is a saint.

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '18

One would say the entire white race was blood thirsty on the globe.

You see how terrible generalisations are?

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '18

Again, no one is justifying state capture. I am criticizing white people who somehow think they are under reverse apartheid.

Except it's being left out of the equation along with the rapid and unsustainable black population growth. It's exaggerated to say that there is a "reverse-Apartheid", but if the victims along with their elected government continues to ensure the indefinite existence of black poverty then they also continue to ensure the existence of exclusionary policies like BEE and at what point is it no longer white people's fault if they are becoming a large part of the problem?

again, the point is that they COULD work for money and land while black people COULD NOT. plus the compensation was disproportional, they got the land to help them start up since they could not afford it. They had to work, but it was still worth more than the work they did. it was a government subsidiary.

They were granted the opportunity where black people were denied that. This whole part of the argument came about because you implied it was simply given free of charge.

so black people are at fault for being treated like animals? if black people were all friendly and hippy-like they would have been treated as equals? you really are delusional. All over the globe, white people plundered, slaughtered and imprisoned the indigenous people: native americans, aztecs, incas, aborigines, tribes all over africa, asia, literally everywhere. but according to your logic it's the hostile natives that started the fire, not the gentle white settlers who might have made a few mistakes, but nothing compared to the savage locals!

If it happened in SA where the settlers at least tried to treat with local populations and were betrayed then it no doubt happened elsewhere. The fact remain that it happened here.

And saying it would've turned out the same regardless of how black people acted is backed up by nothing. There was potential to at least start off on a better foot and that opportunity was squandered.

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u/iambeingserious Mar 20 '18

White people don't downplay apartheid, they are pissed off about how much focus is given to apartheid and how little focus is given to the disaster that is the ANC government. You can't change the passed but you can change the future and the ANC is doing very little to make the future brighter for SA. Imagine how many children could've been schooled and fed for the money that has been lost on corruption.

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u/beeswaxx Mar 20 '18

i see plenty of white people knowingly or unknowingly play down apartheid. You just did by saying "the part is the past". You seem to have no idea just how terrible and lasting the effect of apartheid is and how much hate (not justifying it) there still from black people.

yes, OBVIOUSLY, the state capture and incompetence within the ANC should be addressed and removed, but i always laugh when white people say that "it's been more than 2 decades since apartheid" as if it's effects vanish after a fixed amount of time.

And people keep going on about the ANC and shit.... this thread and my original comment was about reverse apartheid and how it's ridiculous

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u/iambeingserious Mar 20 '18

Saying the past is the past is not down playing apartheid. It's fact, regardless of what you say. So either you focus on the past and destroy everything. Or you accept it and try build on top of it.

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u/beeswaxx Mar 20 '18

the phrase "past is the past" implies that all should be forgotten as it's over now as if it's impact is gone. if you are treated like animals for all your life, your parents were treated like animals all their lives and so forth, how is the past just the past after apartheid ends?

OBVIOUSLY we should move forward and create a new SA where racism is a thing of the past and not dwell on the past, but we should rectify our mistakes and not pretend like all is over and forgotten. black people are still at a disadvantage due to apartheid, whether you like to admit it or not.

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u/iambeingserious Mar 20 '18

Well we will never move forward if the government blames everything on fucking apartheid. Is that so difficult to understand? The government has been fucking up for 25 years and is now Scape goating the whites. Shit like this leads to genocide and civil war.

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u/superfastjellyfish29 Mar 19 '18

If I had some money I would have gilded you

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u/superfastjellyfish29 Mar 19 '18

If I had some money I would have gilded you

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u/superfastjellyfish29 Mar 19 '18

If I had some money I would have gilded you

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u/iambeingserious Mar 20 '18

My brother was a hiring manager at one of the big banks. He had STACKS of highly qualified chartered accountant cvs that had to be put aside, without interview, simply because they were white.

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u/sooibot Boo! Land Mar 19 '18

Oh OH OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOh....

Someone actually took the time. Dis Gone B gud.

Come on White Genocide guys - what's wrong with the summary this commentator provided?

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '18

Not a white genocider here, but I have to state as I've done before that my main issue with all of this is the demonisation of a group for the country's problems, and there appears to be a theme when listening to the accounts of victims - there is often real hate for them simply because they are white, because they are farmers or because they "have a right" to be violent towards their victims. This is fuelled by rhetoric from politicians that goes unpunished, hardly even condemned. If you can't see that this grouping of people is dangerous and what it may lead to, I suggest you read up on, say, the Kulaks.

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u/sooibot Boo! Land Mar 19 '18

I am totally with you on that...

But why is the response then to do exactly the same thing? If making up shit is the reason we're getting into a problem in society - then why would making up more shit by the other side be the solution?

Why is treating every white person like they stole your land, not the same as treating every black person as if they've got some long knifes they're sharpening at home?

Why do we give a pedestal to the noisy fucknuckles just wasting everyone's time? Because we give into our fear. Fear is driving SA, and spreading more fear just reinforces the negative feedback loop. When you're sitting around the dinner table with family and friends - sure; it's something that brings you together when you talk about a ethereal enemy. The Them. The Other. The Not Us.

Sure, you and your group will feel closer, but to what expense? Creating a cloud in your mind that makes you mistrustful and easy to anger.

You don't need to be coming to me and saying; Sure, but. What you need to do is to go out and remind everyone you know that the internet and newspapers aren't the reality. The reality is experienced by all of us every day. Just people struggling to make a living - and who will probably help instead of hurt.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '18

I'm not disagreeing with anything you said - I think the world currently thrives on the pushing on narratives on all sides of the political spectrum - which frankly disgusts me. That said, there is however a difference in how the two sides are treated. Currently, only one side is openly threatening the other and getting away with it, which I believe is far more dangerous to the minds of an already angry and disenfranchised populace in the long run (hence the Kulak comparison).

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u/killerofsheep Mar 19 '18

As a somewhat objective white person, I'll try give my opinion as to the reason.

What have white people (as a demographic/community) done to rectify the injustices of the past? It appears to most that the continued wealth inequality is reflective of white people maintaining their economic power at the continued expense of black people. Of course there is the rise in black wealth, and that the ANC is dealing with immense corruption.. yet this is not sufficient to appease millions of people living in poverty.

Poverty is almost exclusively a black and coloured issue, and near non-existant among white people. This dichotomy creates a tension that very few wish to deal with. Black people feel it is a result of Apartheid, and white people feel as if Apartheid is gone and its the ANC's fault.

So, poverty is a result of Apartheid and white people, and whites aren't doing enough/anything to fix that.

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u/Pm_me_de_steam_codes Mar 19 '18

What about all the white people that were born in a democratic South Africa?

The major problem I see is people selectively showing statistics in a way that encourages their agenda, if you look at the number of white people, vs the number of black people living in poverty there's a huge difference, but transfer those numbers into percentages and the gap is all of a sudden not that big. In my honest opinion, a lot of what's wrong with this country is MASSIVE population boom in the black demographic, and a mundane corrupt government that were never even capable of running the country without the population boom.

What I am trying to say, even if you take every cent every white person has in South Africa, and directly transfer it to the same amount of black people that are living in poverty, you're still going to sit with 23 million black people living in poverty. How is this going to solve anything?

Out of 45 million black people in our country, 28 million is living in poverty, that leaves 17 million above the poverty line, leading a lower class to upper class life, if anyone is capable of helping out the poverty stricken population, it surely makes sense that their own demographic will be more capable?

Even though these sort of things are never as black on white as many people try to make it out to be, there are a lot of factors to take into consideration, and it is not fair to try and blame it all on one group entirely.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '18

Of the corrupt politicians and those in power releases their wealth it would go a long way.

There are politicians in SA that aren’t even paying the taxes on their reported stolen money.

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u/Saguine Admiral Buzz Killington of the H.M.S. Killjoy Mar 19 '18

The major problem I see is people selectively showing statistics in a way that encourages their agenda, if you look at the number of white people, vs the number of black people living in poverty there's a huge difference, but transfer those numbers into percentages and the gap is all of a sudden not that big.

No, the gap really is that big. The only way you'd claim this is if you're entirely ignorant of the facts.

The white poverty headcount sits at about 2% of the white population (0.2% of South Africa). The black poverty headcount sits at about 30% of the black population (24% of South Africa).

The idea that the gap is "all of a sudden not that big" when you put it into percentages has no foothold on reality.

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u/killerofsheep Mar 19 '18

Who were those people born to? How did their grandparents benefit? Generational wealth favours white people to a far greater extent than it does blacks. Those born after 1994 enjoy much of the same privileges as their parents, albeit in a less directly guarded atmosphere. A big reason in the increase in farm attacks due to the population being more evenly protected.

I agree that the population boom is a strain on the country, yet this becomes a way to supplement that lack of generational wealth. People don't have money to live into their old age as a result of being deprived pre-1994, and the corruption of the current government has exacerbated the problem.

You cannot use a 1=1 function for wealth transfer. Households are a more useful metric, and this way we can compare; income, consumption patterns, assets, size of family etc. Your theoretical is a near impossi or scenario. And it discounts that most black people in SA actually don't want a violent social upheaval. But that's an inevitability if the wealth inequality continues.

"Looking after your own demographic" is a backwards and racist way of thinking, and the reason many black people feel discontented about continued white prosperity at their expense.

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u/Pm_me_de_steam_codes Mar 19 '18

Well, I for one, at 22, although I am white, I do not come from generational wealth, I will inherit nothing and I am not bitter about it. I have been self employed since I was 18, and by using my brain I have been able to live a debt free life until now. Although I am not at all where I want to be, at least I can get by, a lot more than many people can say.

Where did I say everyone should look after their own demographic? I said, it makes a lot more sense that black people should chip in on the poverty problem, since there's a lot more of them not in the problem their fellow countrymen are in, than there are white people in the country, from all classes and groups.

It baffles me, in this day and age where the government sits with the ability to help those living in poverty, but chooses not to, chooses to loot it all, chooses to employ people that are not capable to do their jobs, and then tries to blame it on a minority when the people they were supposed to help looks at them in disbelief.

Like I said in my first comment, there are too many factors in the epidemic our country sits in to simply blame it on one party/problem or the other, entirely.

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u/sandawana Afrikaners are africans Mar 20 '18

As a black person I can tell you that we do. The is something called "Black tax". Which basically means the moment you get out of the poverty line your family and relatives look up to you to prop them up. My parents for example have provided for tertiary education for at least 10 of my relatives. All the first generation who get of poverty where I am from does the same and has to build a house for their parents because of the shitty condition. Personally I have never been poor but I have seen to many poor people in my life.

Because of black tax most of the first generation black people to get of poverty never had the opportunity to acquire wealth in their life. I have never been poor but I never blame a poor person for being poor. Being poor affects and limits the way someone thinks. Escaping poverty is more extraordinary than people think.

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u/Pm_me_de_steam_codes Mar 20 '18

Well that's an awesome thing to do for your relatives. The more educated people we can get in this country, the more jobs will be created and less crime will be the result. A win-win for everyone.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '18

I can mostly agree, however none of that is a reason to openly call for and celebrate violence against a group of people because of what almost entirely their ancestors did. (see note)

I have to ask, what do you believe should the average white person, who did not take part in the injustices of the past but may/may not have benefited from this due to personal circumstance, do to redress the past?

Note: I did the math some time ago - I think less than 15% of the white people currently alive was in favour of Apartheid at its fall.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '18

It appears to most that the continued wealth inequality is reflective of white people maintaining their economic power at the continued expense of black people.

Wealth inequality is mostly a result of IQ.

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u/Calmdownplease Mar 19 '18

No one is going to respond in the same way and in the same level of detail.

This thing thats going on in SA is part pent up anger about the past and part influence by a newly resurgent neo-nazi sentiment in the west.

There is a fuck ton of noise in the system at the moment, I just haven't figured out why yet.

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u/DarfSmiff Mar 19 '18

There certainly is a lot of noise in the system, and I'd argue that it's mostly been driven by various governments and very large mainstream media companies in an effort to shift the Overton Window much further to the left than it was even 5 years ago, resulting in statements such as:

a newly resurgent neo-nazi sentiment in the west.

to be pretty commonplace despite there being little to no evidence of this.

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u/Calmdownplease Mar 19 '18

I don’t know man, look at the rise in popularity of right wing parties in all sorts of places including Italy and France. In addition center right parties are moving more right to appease increasingly older, paranoid voter bases (Republican Party is a great example in the US).

It’s not all doom and gloom but it’s feeling like the west is fracturing and the east is stabilizing.

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u/JonideBlam Mar 20 '18

So right means neo-nazi? Huh.

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u/Calmdownplease Mar 20 '18

Far right certainly does and honestly Le Pen and Salvini are way to close to neo nazi than I, or any right thinking (lol) person, should be happy with.

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u/unfknblvbil Mar 20 '18

Lol, if you insist. The start of each sentence is a lowercase character and, no full stop at the end of each sentence.

Edited: Well a full stop here and there.

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u/sooibot Boo! Land Mar 20 '18

hahaha

-1

u/safric Mar 19 '18 edited Mar 19 '18

All the figures used are false, for one?

Guy is an Australian immigrant, for two. Not sure if he's an expert on South Africa.

It's just the usual political rambling.

EDIT: Or well, maybe he's from Finland or Germany? https://np.reddit.com/r/nintendo/comments/1ctuev/anyone_in_europe_want_a_club_nintendo_code/c9k8jax/?context=3

Either way, he's just spreading a fantasy somewhere.

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u/zaliudi Mar 19 '18

All the figures used are false, for one?

Proof?

Guy is an Australian immigrant, for two. Not sure if he's an expert on South Africa.

Ad hominem.

Either way, he's just spreading a fantasy somewhere.

His comment had sources. Why should we consider it a fantasy? Why not consider yours a fantasy? His has sources after all...

9

u/allthisjusttocomment Mar 19 '18

It's dishonest. It's the equivalent of me going into the Appalachian region of America and portraying them as being representative of the state of all white people in America and that they are all oppressed because Obama is the president and because America has affirmative action. It's just as dishonest as using a photo of dog attack victims and claiming they were victims of farm attacks.

The people behind the documentary are known neo Nazis and white supremacists who are part of the global white supremacist movement. They currently have a campaign going on targeting South Africa.

The people featured in the documentary are also known white supremacists and white separatists who choose to live separate) from other South Africans. Volksteun is a Front National project. They weren't forced to live the way they do and their ideology is still the same as what they had during Apartheid. There' a long list of far right white separatist and neo Nazi groups in South Africa that have been active since Apartheid: AWB, Front National, Die Suidlanders, Boere Beskermings Forum, Geloftevolk Republikeine, die Verkenners etc.

It's not an honest portrayal of either poverty in the white community or of poverty in South African in general.

In South Africa today uneducated whites still earn more than university educated blacks.

At top management level, 68.5% of positions are occupied by white South Africans which is more than six times their economically active population

Most whites in SA still earn 6 times more than blacks

Whites have the lowest unemployment of all racial groups, lower than most European countries.

White South African murders rate is at the European average and whites are 8.9 times less likely to be murdered than black people.

In 2016, 71 people were murdered on farms. This includes all people, irrespective of race, whether they owned the farms, were employed on the farms, or just passing through. It also includes smallholdings, which are mostly inhabited by black people and far more numerous than the large farms owned by white South Africans. 810,000 people in South Africa work on farms. Note that the vast majority of these people are black. That's a murder rate of 9.1 per 100,000. This is more than 3 times lower than the general murder rate of 34.4 per 100,000 - and we're not even talking about white farmers, we're talking about every single person who was killed on a farm.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-41807642

Dan Kriek, the president of Agri SA, the country's largest and most influential agricultural organisation, has debunked Afriforum's whitewashed statistics.

>Crime doesn't recognise colour. For example, in the Free State we have had 58 farm attacks this year with four murders: two black and two white. We need to be honest about (crime) statistics and not only use it when it suits us.

The fake "white genocide" narrative relies on statistics from Afriforum that originate with the Transvaal Agricultural Union who don't split victims by race, yet right-wing news outlets take them and say that they were all white.

Just a few days ago a black-owned farm was attcked and burned down but the internet was abuzz with white genocide claims relating to it.

Farm murders of all races have been declining for the last 20 years and are half what they were 20 years ago.

I could go on but I think you get the point.

2

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2

u/allthisjusttocomment Mar 20 '18

Good bot

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6

u/RuanStix /r/gevaaalikdotcom Mar 19 '18

The extreme right (Afriforum, Steve Hofmeyr, Sunette Bridges, Suidlanders) and the extreme left (Julius Malema, EFF, ANC, Max Du Preez) both just say shit to scare people or get people riled up.

7

u/[deleted] Mar 19 '18

And the media throws all of it onto the front page because it drives clicks and shares through the roof.

3

u/RuanStix /r/gevaaalikdotcom Mar 19 '18

Yup, and if it's on the front page of People Magazine, ag, I mean Die Beeld/Rapport, then it must be serious right? I mean, can you even remember how much Joost and Amor made the front page, and that definitely affected our lives as South Africans big time. /s

-5

u/safric Mar 19 '18

In 2016, 71 people were murdered on farms. This includes all people, irrespective of race, whether they owned the farms, were employed on the farms, or just passing through.

Well that's complete bullshit.

Rest of the post is the very same kind of spin.

It's like pretending to counter propaganda with more equally false propaganda and thinking it will work, hah.

17

u/RuanStix /r/gevaaalikdotcom Mar 19 '18

You are making a lot of claims, that you are not backing up with any fact. So...

12

u/zaliudi Mar 19 '18

Well that's complete bullshit.

Any proof? His article linked to BBC quoting SAPS. What number do you have and according to whom?

14

u/PaperbackRaita Mar 19 '18

If you think this is bullshit, why don't you reply with a credible source citing the actual number of farm murders? Even Afriforum cites a figure very close to this one at 74 murders in 2016.