Redditor provides counter-argument to documentary about South Africa's "Reverse Apartheid"

[u/allthisjusttocomment]

/r/Documentaries/comments/856hzq/south_africa_a_reversed_apartheid_2018_a/dvvwfcy/?context=3

[u/beeswaxx]

the other problem with "reverse apartheid" is simply that the current situation is nowhere near apartheid... must be mostly kids that never actually seen the impact or living conditions of actual apartheid.

playing second fiddle to a black person when going to a job interview is somehow the same as a black person being considered less than human and not given any opportunities. plus, i do not know of a single white person that worked hard in school and studied hard and after all that were denied all job opportunities (in a field that actually has demand).

people always go on about how black people didn't study during apartheid and rather spent time protesting or doing nothing. why study when you can't get a decent job due to being black?

edit* oh and another argument against BEE i've heard quite a lot is that "my great grandfather worked till he bled and cried to provide for his family, nothing was given to him". maybe so, i know afrikaners were dirt poor during the 20's-50's, my great grand father included. they were, however, given land and the opportunity to work, i.e they COULD work their asses off to make a living.

black people were denied that, even if they wanted to work their ass off they couldn't

[u/[deleted] → u/beeswaxx]

playing second fiddle to a black person when going to a job interview is somehow the same as a black person being considered less than human and not given any opportunities. plus, i do not know of a single white person that worked hard in school and studied hard and after all that were denied all job opportunities (in a field that actually has demand).

It's not, but at what point will it have served it's purpose as a measure to address inequality and instead become a form of discrimination?

How will we ever reach equality when population statistics look like these? Combine this with the rampant corruption and gross mismanagement of the ANC and the answer is never. That's why some white people look at it the way they do.

given land and the opportunity to work

That's pretty sweet. My grandparents had to buy their land unfortunately.

Things would have also gone better if black people back in the day actually tried to treat honestly with the white settlers, you know as opposed to betraying and brutally killing them. The battle of Bloodriver was the result of such a case.

[u/Space_Christ13 → u/[deleted]]

Lol talking about how black people must just get over apartheid then are salty about bloedrivier XD

[u/[deleted] → u/Space_Christ13]

Yes

[u/Calmdownplease → u/[deleted]]

I feel like your comment deserves a reply as it has a number of issues that I would disagree on or can provide a view on:

It's not, but at what point will it have served it's purpose as a measure to address inequality and instead become a form of discrimination?

At the point where we can see meaningful, self sustained improvement in the lives of people who systematically fucked up by a government. That last point is the key. A government went about applying its mind and resources to oppressing a race. It is right that this government, or any future government systematically looks to redress that.

How will we ever reach equality when population statistics look like these?

Yes the majority of people in this country are black. It is difficult but it can be done if everyone works at it. That stat about the black middle class being as big as the white population is a good example of success. It may seem like a mountain but frankly 50 million people is a tiny amount compared to larger countries. India and China have set about trying to lift their people out of poverty, we should too with no excuses.

That's pretty sweet. My grandparents had to buy their land unfortunately.

Thats lekker, so did mine. Problem was my grandparents had to buy in shitty areas, at inflated pricing while locked out of finance and the best employment. That idea of lacking the opportunity to work is also important. Any kid, white or black that comes to my office with the right skill set and mind set can get a chance at a role. I have young white kids and black kids at my office. EE is a reality but it isn't a career death sentence.

Things would have also gone better if black people back in the day actually tried to treat honestly with the white settlers, you know as opposed to betraying and brutally killing them.

Great point, if this sub is anything to go by a bunch of angry black dudes wearing red berets are coming to take away Afrikaans farms shortly. I would love to see the guys who sit down with them for a peaceful discussion over a cup of tea while the work out how to cede their land. That's not the way these things work man.

[u/[deleted] → u/Calmdownplease]

At the point where we can see meaningful, self sustained improvement in the lives of people who systematically fucked up by a government. That last point is the key. A government went about applying its mind and resources to oppressing a race. It is right that this government, or any future government systematically looks to redress that.

Yes Apartheid was evil and bad as it has been said ad infinitum, but that justification is wearing razor thin with the way things are going. Referring to population statistics again. My question still stands. How do you ever reach that point when the majority keeps growing in such a rapid and unsustainable manner? How will economic growth and job creation ever catch up when driven by a corrupt and inept government? I ask because I genuinely don't know.

Yes the majority of people in this country are black. It is difficult but it can be done if everyone works at it. That stat about the black middle class being as big as the white population is a good example of success. It may seem like a mountain but frankly 50 million people is a tiny amount compared to larger countries. India and China have set about trying to lift their people out of poverty, we should too with no excuses.

And I am happy to see that the black community's quality of life improved. I hope it continues to do so. 50 million is small compared to other countries, but there is no need for us to bloat our population needlessly like it's doing now.

Any kid, white or black that comes to my office with the right skill set and mind set can get a chance at a role. I have young white kids and black kids at my office. EE is a reality but it isn't a career death sentence.

Except that there are no incentives to hire white employees. It's situational and might not affect your business. It does however affect most major businesses and those that have contractual ties to the government. Apartheid wasn't a death sentence either, does that make it any better?

Great point, if this sub is anything to go by a bunch of angry black dudes wearing red berets are coming to take away Afrikaans farms shortly. I would love to see the guys who sit down with them for a peaceful discussion over a cup of tea while the work out how to cede their land. That's not the way these things work man.

This sub is not representative of SA or Africa in general. These debates are dominated by emotion more than rationale, hence why we even consider going Zimbabwe 2.0. The ANC has handled our social problems since the end of Apartheid with about as much tact as a truck full of dynamite reversing at full speed into an incinerator. There is no evidence suggesting improvement.

[u/Calmdownplease → u/[deleted]]

All good points so let me try to respond best as I can:

How will economic growth and job creation ever catch up when driven by a corrupt and inept government? I ask because I genuinely don't know.

Short answer is that it will not under the government approaches that have been adopted. There are many examples of countries that have done well to lift themselves out of the poverty trap (Singapore and South Korea come to mind). A pre-requisite though is a government that understands its role and doesnt fuck with the education system.

Frankly, education is the only lever we have to lift ourselves out and we have fucked around with the education system too much. SADTU is also a chain around the neck of the schooling system. Without educating our population right quickly we will be stuck in the position we are in. It is not easy but it is very possible.

Apartheid wasn't a death sentence either, does that make it any better?

It was a career death sentence in that you could not aspire to middle management or above as a person of colour. Yours was a life of a labourer. Either way though yes there are no incentives to hire white, nor should they be. There should be no hard blocks either.

The ANC has handled our social problems since the end of Apartheid with about as much tact as a truck full of dynamite reversing at full speed into an incinerator.

You wont find an argument here. They have screwed the pooch.

[u/[deleted] → u/Calmdownplease]

Short answer is that it will not under the government approaches that have been adopted. There are many examples of countries that have done well to lift themselves out of the poverty trap (Singapore and South Korea come to mind). A pre-requisite though is a government that understands its role and doesnt fuck with the education system.

Frankly, education is the only lever we have to lift ourselves out and we have fucked around with the education system too much. SADTU is also a chain around the neck of the schooling system. Without educating our population right quickly we will be stuck in the position we are in. It is not easy but it is very possible.

That is my big gripe regarding the situation. If the government isn't alleviating black poverty to the best of it's ability and the electorate aren't curbing their rapid and unsustainable population growth then they are ensuring the existence of black poverty indefinitely and thereby also ensuring exclusionary policies like BEE indefinitely. I get that it's over exaggerating to say it's "reverse-Apartheid", but at what point is still Apartheids fault if the victims are contributing massively to inequality themselves?

The countries you mentioned have proven that it's possible to fix the situation. The politicians so love a poorly educated voting base because how else would they be able peddle lies?

It was a career death sentence in that you could not aspire to middle management or above as a person of colour. Yours was a life of a labourer. Either way though yes there are no incentives to hire white, nor should they be. There should be no hard blocks either.

Yes there shouldn't be any incentives and that is fine, but it can't continue indefinitely like it's doing now. The public sector is filled with hard blocks. The same principle applies to African only subsidizing such bursaries etc.

[u/beeswaxx → u/[deleted]]

It's not, but at what point will it have served it's purpose as a measure to address inequality and instead become a form of discrimination?

you think a decade or so of slight benefits can magically rectify hundreds of years of oppression? shit, apartheid was so recent that i still have older people calling me 'baas' at petrol stations

That's pretty sweet. My grandparents had to buy their land unfortunately.

that's pretty sweet, and unlike black people they got the deed signed no problem, hey?

Things would have also gone better if black people back in the day actually tried to treat honestly with the white settlers, you know as opposed to betraying and brutally killing them.

yeah, sure was a one way street, hey?

[u/[deleted] → u/beeswaxx]

Go ahead and masturbate about Apartheid until you think it's going to solve things all while absolving the oppressed of all their faults. Perhaps if you masturbate hard enough you'll look like right past state capture, the black population explosion, unrealistic populist ideals, communism and tribal leaders who didn't even want to negotiate honestly. Oh and add gross mismanagement to the list.

that's pretty sweet, and unlike black people they got the deed signed no problem, hey?

Yes after they had to buy it of course. Or perhaps that's what you originally meant by given?

yeah, sure was a one way street, hey?

That clever Dingane signed the deal, invited them over for a performance and had them beaten to death like coward after they were heavily outnumbered with their guard lowered.

[u/beeswaxx → u/[deleted]]

Go ahead and masturbate about Apartheid until you think it's going to solve things all while absolving the oppressed of all their faults. Perhaps if you masturbate hard enough you'll look like right past state capture, the black population explosion, unrealistic populist ideals, communism and tribal leaders who didn't even want to negotiate honestly. Oh and add gross mismanagement to the list.

no one here is seriously justifying the ANC's behavior, this is about white people complaining about reverse apartheid and not being given equal opportunities. and it's partly because of people like you, who belittle the impact of apartheid, that black people hate white people still.

Yes after they had to buy it of course. Or perhaps that's what you originally meant by given?

Yes, plenty of dirt poor afrikaners were GIVEN land in the early 20th century. it was a scheme where you could work on building the railway and then receive a piece of land as part of your compensation. i know this because my grandfather's cousin's family was a beneficiary of this scheme.

That clever Dingane signed the deal, invited them over for a performance and had them beaten to death like coward after they were heavily outnumbered with their guard lowered.

you keep mentioning specific events where the zulu's attacked unjustly, i'm saying that there were PLENTY of atrocities committed by the white folks in those days

[u/[deleted] → u/beeswaxx]

no one here is seriously justifying the ANC's behavior, this is about white people complaining about reverse apartheid and not being given equal opportunities. and it's partly because of people like you, who belittle the impact of apartheid, that black people hate white people still.

And I'm fed up with Apartheid being used as a shield by the ruling party and the majority as a justification for how things are going, all while public funds which are supposed to be used to empower black people is being ransacked. SOEs like SAA is making losses numbering in billions, Zuma gets a house worth R245,000,000, questionable Gupta vat refund released of R70,000,000, the arms deal etc.

If the parties the majority kept voting for earnestly tried to uplift black people then I would have a lot more empathy.

Yes, plenty of dirt poor afrikaners were GIVEN land in the early 20th century. it was a scheme where you could work on building the railway and then receive a piece of land as part of your compensation. i know this because my grandfather's cousin's family was a beneficiary of this scheme.

Then they didn't just get the land anyway. They still had to pay in one form or another.

you keep mentioning specific events where the zulu's attacked unjustly, i'm saying that there were PLENTY of atrocities committed by the white folks in those days

And I'm not saying the settlers were saints, but black people did their part to ensure that race relations went to hell long before Apartheid.

[u/beeswaxx → u/[deleted]]

Again, no one is justifying state capture. I am criticizing white people who somehow think they are under reverse apartheid.

Then they didn't just get the land anyway. They still had to pay in one form or another.

again, the point is that they COULD work for money and land while black people COULD NOT. plus the compensation was disproportional, they got the land to help them start up since they could not afford it. They had to work, but it was still worth more than the work they did. it was a government subsidiary.

And I'm not saying the settlers were saints, but black people did their part to ensure that race relations went to hell long before Apartheid.

so black people are at fault for being treated like animals? if black people were all friendly and hippy-like they would have been treated as equals? you really are delusional.

All over the globe, white people plundered, slaughtered and imprisoned the indigenous people: native americans, aztecs, incas, aborigines, tribes all over africa, asia, literally everywhere. but according to your logic it's the hostile natives that started the fire, not the gentle white settlers who might have made a few mistakes, but nothing compared to the savage locals!

[u/Pm_me_de_steam_codes → u/beeswaxx]

Queue the Zulu tribe, one of the most violent and blood thirsty peoples on the globe, pre-colonization and post-colonization.

No one is a saint.

[u/[deleted] → u/Pm_me_de_steam_codes]

One would say the entire white race was blood thirsty on the globe.

You see how terrible generalisations are?

[u/[deleted] → u/beeswaxx]

Again, no one is justifying state capture. I am criticizing white people who somehow think they are under reverse apartheid.

Except it's being left out of the equation along with the rapid and unsustainable black population growth. It's exaggerated to say that there is a "reverse-Apartheid", but if the victims along with their elected government continues to ensure the indefinite existence of black poverty then they also continue to ensure the existence of exclusionary policies like BEE and at what point is it no longer white people's fault if they are becoming a large part of the problem?

again, the point is that they COULD work for money and land while black people COULD NOT. plus the compensation was disproportional, they got the land to help them start up since they could not afford it. They had to work, but it was still worth more than the work they did. it was a government subsidiary.

They were granted the opportunity where black people were denied that. This whole part of the argument came about because you implied it was simply given free of charge.

so black people are at fault for being treated like animals? if black people were all friendly and hippy-like they would have been treated as equals? you really are delusional. All over the globe, white people plundered, slaughtered and imprisoned the indigenous people: native americans, aztecs, incas, aborigines, tribes all over africa, asia, literally everywhere. but according to your logic it's the hostile natives that started the fire, not the gentle white settlers who might have made a few mistakes, but nothing compared to the savage locals!

If it happened in SA where the settlers at least tried to treat with local populations and were betrayed then it no doubt happened elsewhere. The fact remain that it happened here.

And saying it would've turned out the same regardless of how black people acted is backed up by nothing. There was potential to at least start off on a better foot and that opportunity was squandered.

[u/iambeingserious → u/beeswaxx]

White people don't downplay apartheid, they are pissed off about how much focus is given to apartheid and how little focus is given to the disaster that is the ANC government. You can't change the passed but you can change the future and the ANC is doing very little to make the future brighter for SA. Imagine how many children could've been schooled and fed for the money that has been lost on corruption.

[u/beeswaxx → u/iambeingserious]

i see plenty of white people knowingly or unknowingly play down apartheid. You just did by saying "the part is the past". You seem to have no idea just how terrible and lasting the effect of apartheid is and how much hate (not justifying it) there still from black people.

yes, OBVIOUSLY, the state capture and incompetence within the ANC should be addressed and removed, but i always laugh when white people say that "it's been more than 2 decades since apartheid" as if it's effects vanish after a fixed amount of time.

And people keep going on about the ANC and shit.... this thread and my original comment was about reverse apartheid and how it's ridiculous

[u/iambeingserious → u/beeswaxx]

Saying the past is the past is not down playing apartheid. It's fact, regardless of what you say. So either you focus on the past and destroy everything. Or you accept it and try build on top of it.

[u/beeswaxx → u/iambeingserious]

the phrase "past is the past" implies that all should be forgotten as it's over now as if it's impact is gone. if you are treated like animals for all your life, your parents were treated like animals all their lives and so forth, how is the past just the past after apartheid ends?

OBVIOUSLY we should move forward and create a new SA where racism is a thing of the past and not dwell on the past, but we should rectify our mistakes and not pretend like all is over and forgotten. black people are still at a disadvantage due to apartheid, whether you like to admit it or not.

[u/iambeingserious → u/beeswaxx]

Well we will never move forward if the government blames everything on fucking apartheid. Is that so difficult to understand? The government has been fucking up for 25 years and is now Scape goating the whites. Shit like this leads to genocide and civil war.

[u/beeswaxx → u/iambeingserious]

i don't see why you think that the two is mutually exclusive... we can condemn the ANC's behavior, looking to move forward AND not pretend like apartheid should be forgotten because the past is the past.

the only way we can actually move forward and stop this white blaming from the anc is for white people to actually confront and address the past. it's because of the lack of this that the anc can get away with apartheid blaming.

[u/superfastjellyfish29 → u/beeswaxx]

If I had some money I would have gilded you

[u/superfastjellyfish29 → u/beeswaxx]

If I had some money I would have gilded you

[u/superfastjellyfish29 → u/beeswaxx]

If I had some money I would have gilded you