Redditor provides counter-argument to documentary about South Africa's "Reverse Apartheid"

[u/allthisjusttocomment]

/r/Documentaries/comments/856hzq/south_africa_a_reversed_apartheid_2018_a/dvvwfcy/?context=3

[u/beeswaxx]

the other problem with "reverse apartheid" is simply that the current situation is nowhere near apartheid... must be mostly kids that never actually seen the impact or living conditions of actual apartheid.

playing second fiddle to a black person when going to a job interview is somehow the same as a black person being considered less than human and not given any opportunities. plus, i do not know of a single white person that worked hard in school and studied hard and after all that were denied all job opportunities (in a field that actually has demand).

people always go on about how black people didn't study during apartheid and rather spent time protesting or doing nothing. why study when you can't get a decent job due to being black?

edit* oh and another argument against BEE i've heard quite a lot is that "my great grandfather worked till he bled and cried to provide for his family, nothing was given to him". maybe so, i know afrikaners were dirt poor during the 20's-50's, my great grand father included. they were, however, given land and the opportunity to work, i.e they COULD work their asses off to make a living.

black people were denied that, even if they wanted to work their ass off they couldn't

[u/[deleted] → u/beeswaxx]

playing second fiddle to a black person when going to a job interview is somehow the same as a black person being considered less than human and not given any opportunities. plus, i do not know of a single white person that worked hard in school and studied hard and after all that were denied all job opportunities (in a field that actually has demand).

It's not, but at what point will it have served it's purpose as a measure to address inequality and instead become a form of discrimination?

How will we ever reach equality when population statistics look like these? Combine this with the rampant corruption and gross mismanagement of the ANC and the answer is never. That's why some white people look at it the way they do.

given land and the opportunity to work

That's pretty sweet. My grandparents had to buy their land unfortunately.

Things would have also gone better if black people back in the day actually tried to treat honestly with the white settlers, you know as opposed to betraying and brutally killing them. The battle of Bloodriver was the result of such a case.

[u/Calmdownplease → u/[deleted]]

I feel like your comment deserves a reply as it has a number of issues that I would disagree on or can provide a view on:

It's not, but at what point will it have served it's purpose as a measure to address inequality and instead become a form of discrimination?

At the point where we can see meaningful, self sustained improvement in the lives of people who systematically fucked up by a government. That last point is the key. A government went about applying its mind and resources to oppressing a race. It is right that this government, or any future government systematically looks to redress that.

How will we ever reach equality when population statistics look like these?

Yes the majority of people in this country are black. It is difficult but it can be done if everyone works at it. That stat about the black middle class being as big as the white population is a good example of success. It may seem like a mountain but frankly 50 million people is a tiny amount compared to larger countries. India and China have set about trying to lift their people out of poverty, we should too with no excuses.

That's pretty sweet. My grandparents had to buy their land unfortunately.

Thats lekker, so did mine. Problem was my grandparents had to buy in shitty areas, at inflated pricing while locked out of finance and the best employment. That idea of lacking the opportunity to work is also important. Any kid, white or black that comes to my office with the right skill set and mind set can get a chance at a role. I have young white kids and black kids at my office. EE is a reality but it isn't a career death sentence.

Things would have also gone better if black people back in the day actually tried to treat honestly with the white settlers, you know as opposed to betraying and brutally killing them.

Great point, if this sub is anything to go by a bunch of angry black dudes wearing red berets are coming to take away Afrikaans farms shortly. I would love to see the guys who sit down with them for a peaceful discussion over a cup of tea while the work out how to cede their land. That's not the way these things work man.

[u/[deleted] → u/Calmdownplease]

At the point where we can see meaningful, self sustained improvement in the lives of people who systematically fucked up by a government. That last point is the key. A government went about applying its mind and resources to oppressing a race. It is right that this government, or any future government systematically looks to redress that.

Yes Apartheid was evil and bad as it has been said ad infinitum, but that justification is wearing razor thin with the way things are going. Referring to population statistics again. My question still stands. How do you ever reach that point when the majority keeps growing in such a rapid and unsustainable manner? How will economic growth and job creation ever catch up when driven by a corrupt and inept government? I ask because I genuinely don't know.

Yes the majority of people in this country are black. It is difficult but it can be done if everyone works at it. That stat about the black middle class being as big as the white population is a good example of success. It may seem like a mountain but frankly 50 million people is a tiny amount compared to larger countries. India and China have set about trying to lift their people out of poverty, we should too with no excuses.

And I am happy to see that the black community's quality of life improved. I hope it continues to do so. 50 million is small compared to other countries, but there is no need for us to bloat our population needlessly like it's doing now.

Any kid, white or black that comes to my office with the right skill set and mind set can get a chance at a role. I have young white kids and black kids at my office. EE is a reality but it isn't a career death sentence.

Except that there are no incentives to hire white employees. It's situational and might not affect your business. It does however affect most major businesses and those that have contractual ties to the government. Apartheid wasn't a death sentence either, does that make it any better?

Great point, if this sub is anything to go by a bunch of angry black dudes wearing red berets are coming to take away Afrikaans farms shortly. I would love to see the guys who sit down with them for a peaceful discussion over a cup of tea while the work out how to cede their land. That's not the way these things work man.

This sub is not representative of SA or Africa in general. These debates are dominated by emotion more than rationale, hence why we even consider going Zimbabwe 2.0. The ANC has handled our social problems since the end of Apartheid with about as much tact as a truck full of dynamite reversing at full speed into an incinerator. There is no evidence suggesting improvement.

[u/Calmdownplease → u/[deleted]]

All good points so let me try to respond best as I can:

How will economic growth and job creation ever catch up when driven by a corrupt and inept government? I ask because I genuinely don't know.

Short answer is that it will not under the government approaches that have been adopted. There are many examples of countries that have done well to lift themselves out of the poverty trap (Singapore and South Korea come to mind). A pre-requisite though is a government that understands its role and doesnt fuck with the education system.

Frankly, education is the only lever we have to lift ourselves out and we have fucked around with the education system too much. SADTU is also a chain around the neck of the schooling system. Without educating our population right quickly we will be stuck in the position we are in. It is not easy but it is very possible.

Apartheid wasn't a death sentence either, does that make it any better?

It was a career death sentence in that you could not aspire to middle management or above as a person of colour. Yours was a life of a labourer. Either way though yes there are no incentives to hire white, nor should they be. There should be no hard blocks either.

The ANC has handled our social problems since the end of Apartheid with about as much tact as a truck full of dynamite reversing at full speed into an incinerator.

You wont find an argument here. They have screwed the pooch.

[u/[deleted] → u/Calmdownplease]

Short answer is that it will not under the government approaches that have been adopted. There are many examples of countries that have done well to lift themselves out of the poverty trap (Singapore and South Korea come to mind). A pre-requisite though is a government that understands its role and doesnt fuck with the education system.

Frankly, education is the only lever we have to lift ourselves out and we have fucked around with the education system too much. SADTU is also a chain around the neck of the schooling system. Without educating our population right quickly we will be stuck in the position we are in. It is not easy but it is very possible.

That is my big gripe regarding the situation. If the government isn't alleviating black poverty to the best of it's ability and the electorate aren't curbing their rapid and unsustainable population growth then they are ensuring the existence of black poverty indefinitely and thereby also ensuring exclusionary policies like BEE indefinitely. I get that it's over exaggerating to say it's "reverse-Apartheid", but at what point is still Apartheids fault if the victims are contributing massively to inequality themselves?

The countries you mentioned have proven that it's possible to fix the situation. The politicians so love a poorly educated voting base because how else would they be able peddle lies?

It was a career death sentence in that you could not aspire to middle management or above as a person of colour. Yours was a life of a labourer. Either way though yes there are no incentives to hire white, nor should they be. There should be no hard blocks either.

Yes there shouldn't be any incentives and that is fine, but it can't continue indefinitely like it's doing now. The public sector is filled with hard blocks. The same principle applies to African only subsidizing such bursaries etc.