r/tacticalgear • u/PKMNtrainerKing • Mar 14 '25
Rhetorical Hyperbole MACV-SOG were just built different
240
u/TheGreatSockMan Mar 14 '25
Ngl I think most people should look at SOG and that era of SF for more inspiration for their shtf kit than modern sf (or even modern conventional infantry).
Not having resupply or having limited resupply is more likely to be your reality and if Ukraine is showing anything, you go through a lot of ammo in warfare.
107
u/oh_three_dum_dum Mar 14 '25
…you go through a lot of ammo in warfare.
This has been studied and proven true with quantifiable data. I can’t remember the exact numbers they came up with but in the wars they studied it ended up being something like thousands of rounds expended per single casualty.
72
Mar 15 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
39
u/oh_three_dum_dum Mar 15 '25
Yeah that’s an absurd number. Then again, considering they often couldn’t even tell where the enemy was and were firing into every potential spot they could possibly be to gain fire superiority I don’t think expenditure to EKIA ratio was something they were super worried about. I wouldn’t be in that context. It was probably similar in Afghanistan because they fought like that too. NVA had the jungle, and the Taliban had the desert and civilian population to hide in. A lot of our firefights were like chasing imaginary people because they’d make sure they stayed as hidden as possible and then just fuck off as soon as we started to maneuver and melt back into the local population.
4
u/Dark__DMoney Mar 15 '25
That’s exaggerated since it’s coming from Col. Grossman. His book On Killing fabricated huge parts and misquoted SLA Marshall
14
u/Electronic-Ranger-22 Mar 15 '25
To both your points, i recall modern numbers being 10-15k? Different environments and advancements in optics have probably aided that number though.
12
u/Zestyclose_River2174 Mar 15 '25
if you see the footage from the conflict you will see that optics don’t see a lot of use on both sides, but the amounts of amp per kill are definitely lower since most of the firefights take place in such environments like trenches and attacking force usually meets kinda equal counterforce
10
u/Electronic-Ranger-22 Mar 15 '25
My apologies, i was going off the GWOT, not the war in Ukraine for that metric, following the example of Vietnam.
36
u/MRDAEDRA15 Mar 14 '25
big time, alot of the rednecks/preppers in the area I grew up in just had basic army surplus camo, a decent backpack,good boots and at most a bandoleer or basic throw over the shoulder webbing as their bug out stuff. i'm the same way too. realistically there's no way i'm gonna be busting doors down like it's hue city or fallujah getting into gunfights. i'd be keeping myself light and using my guns for self defence/foraging. plus that minimalist look of cold war era special forces looks way more badass.
I wouldn't fuck with those rednecks though.... everyone of them grew up hunting deer and moose with long range rifles and know the land well.
30
u/p8ntslinger Mar 15 '25
I don't think most people deny your second fact. If they are, they're dumb.
The controversy comes from the questions-"are the 2 dudes invading my home considered the same scenario as an infantry squad breaking contact in an ambush," or "is my being in some sort of protest/disaster/civil unrest event the same as being in a infantry line unit in a full-scale, near-peer conflict"
The people who say "no" to both of those questions are the ones who are saying "you don't need 20 mags with you at all times"
The ones who say "yes" are the ones saying "you definitely need 20 mags at all times"
Personally, I believe the best course of action is probably closer to the former, but I'm just an idiot on the internet.
If I'm ever confronted with the question of "if I go to a place that likely requires a rifle to defend myself" My first answer will be "I'm not going to that place" and my second answer will be "seriously, I'm not going and I'll defend my choice to not go with a rifle"
If you, as a civilian, by choice, go to a place and take part in any event where you might need a rifle to defend yourself, then that's simply just on you.
11
u/TheGreatSockMan Mar 15 '25
Which is why I specifically said shtf. Nothing wrong with smaller amounts for other reasons, but in some end of the world gone hot scenario/red dawn/whatever statistically improbable event that they’re prepping for I think you should load for bear since there’s no resupply.
Home defense? Probably just fine with your hd firearm with a loaded mag/tube for sure
24
u/p8ntslinger Mar 15 '25
the idea that anyone is engaging in some kind of Mad Max LRRP after the nuclear winter is absurd. If you're not holing up with family, friends, and neighbors in some sort of fortified village/base, you're probably part of the problem, because you're just a roving marauder.
The idea that running around the wasteland alone is an advisable course of action is based purely in the mythology of books, video games, and movies playing on the escapism fantasy of individual heroism.
If you want to live, get a group of your family, friends, and other community of like 150 people, buy a 50 acre farm, grow food and livestock, build redundant systems of fuel and energy harvest and use, and that's how you'll survive, because that's how humans have made it through every single insane bottleneck of apocalypses the world has thrown at us for the last 500,000 years. The Murder Hobo character class has always been a fantasy.
14
u/TheGreatSockMan Mar 15 '25
Sure, but if you’re ever donning that plate carrier, even in that 50 acre farm, 150 person scenario, you should load up like you’re going to get into an extended gunfight. 90 rounds is a lot for say hd, but if there’s even a small organized group shooting back, you’re going to want a much larger quantity of ammunition
11
u/p8ntslinger Mar 15 '25
which is a different scenario than what is fantasized about in this sub.
If you're defending a fixed position, with support from within the position, then "all the ammo" goes without saying.
If you're navel-gazing about doomer patrolling your parent's suburban neighborhood under NODs to loot Dr. Steve Smith, DMD's house of all its fruit roll-ups and you think you need 20 reloads to do so, you're probably focusing on the wrong things.
Having a bunch of ammo is good. Its better than not having enough ammo. But the context matters, and I don't think most people have a good understanding of that part.
8
7
u/TheGreatSockMan Mar 15 '25
I think this is what they call projection. May I interest you in some grass sir? It’s soft and soothing to the touch
3
8
u/No_Yesterday_2788 Connoisseur of Autism Patches Mar 15 '25
Murder hobo character class 🤣 I’m adding this to my vocabulary
4
u/p8ntslinger Mar 15 '25
real talk, Stealth Archer Murder Hobo is the way to play all RPGs
3
u/No_Yesterday_2788 Connoisseur of Autism Patches Mar 15 '25
That reminds me I need to play Skyrim again
3
u/Very-Confused-Walrus Mar 15 '25
In shtf the goal should be evasion anyways if you’re not a combatant. However, more ammo equals more better regardless
103
u/WhoCaresBoutSpellin Mar 14 '25 edited Mar 14 '25
We Few is a good book (and also Whispers in The Tall Grass)
19
u/Sad-Post-1647 Mar 14 '25
Uncle Nick sure can write
9
u/SilenceDobad76 Mar 15 '25
I found his style off putting. Theres a chapter in The book where he and his buddies bully two donut girls and it left me feeling like "are you sure you want me to see you as the good guy".
Compared to other books on SOG, he seemed like an undisciplined asshole who found an outlet.
3
7
u/PurpD420 Mar 14 '25
One of my favorite subjects to read about, surprisingly haven’t come across these! Much appreciated bud
19
u/CarlKaiserBlade Mar 14 '25
Read Brockhausen’s books as well as code name dynamite, across the fence, and SOG chronicles. jocko wilink has done numerous podcasts with these guys. There’s even a podcast called SOG Cast run by John Stryker Meyer. It’s just SOG guys talking to other SOG guys. You’ll learn a ton from them in terms of preparedness and just how ludicrous their combat experiences are.
2
u/DasHooner Mar 15 '25
The team house also has a couple good interviews with SOG and LRRP guys that are pretty good.
1
1
u/WorldlyAwareness5313 Mar 16 '25
SOG cast is good. But listing to how they kitted out. 25 CAR mags, 3-4 claymore each guy, and like 10 gernades per man. Shit! One guy was saying he would daisy chain 7 claymore’s in a row, or set up one of them on a 2-3 second delay fuse, Set and run. The stuff those guys did is crazy. Would never happen again.
2
u/SilenceDobad76 Mar 15 '25
Secret Comandos by Plaster was an amazing read of his and his fellow men's time with SOG
1
1
Mar 15 '25
[deleted]
2
u/QuattroDore Apr 04 '25
Fwiw, my father (William Curry, 1-0 RT New Hampshire) took the cover photo and is quoted in the final chapter of this book.
98
83
u/Wannabe_Operator83 Mar 14 '25
I read somewhere years ago MACV SOG operators carried at least 20 magazines and 500rds spare with them.
57
u/PKMNtrainerKing Mar 14 '25
In their book one guy did exactly what I said in the meme and he would reliably get to the pick up site either empty or on his last mag. What a war
46
u/ActCompetitive1171 Mar 14 '25
They were 20 round magazines though so only slight more than the current combat load of an infantry guy. I've never heard about the 500 spare rounds.
They had the added advantage that most of their recons were pretty short distances. I think they moved something like 2km a day due to being in the jungle.
41
u/oh_three_dum_dum Mar 14 '25 edited Mar 14 '25
While that’s true, if and when they got compromised it often went to shit extremely fast and they needed every single round they carried and more. There are a lot of stories of recon teams or individuals who would be plotting alternate LZ’s on the fly while fleeing and trying to fight off whole battalions of NVA chasing after them. Close air support saved a lot of men on those patrols who would have otherwise been wiped out completely with no trace. And some of them still got wiped out and disappeared anyway.
31
u/Onebraintwoheads Mar 14 '25
My grandfather was deployed to Vietnam three times in a Frontline combat capacity. He wasn't one of those special forces badasses, but he did carry the pig, and everyone in the squad carried a spare belt just to make sure the M60 stayed fed. Beyond that, most guys kept a lot of spare ammunition in the form of stripper clips so they could spare themselves having to carry the extra weight and space of another 20 magazines on top of what they already had. These were just Marines on forward patrols though.
3
u/Onebraintwoheads Mar 15 '25
Just as a sidenote, US infantry tended to build and mark/map caches of weapons, ammo, explosives, medicine, and rations in the jungle when they were on the way back to base. Maybe it would be of use to some other poor bastards stuck out in the jungle, it meant the patrol had a lot less weight to carry on the way back to base (this gambled on no NVA attacks on the way back to base, ofc), and it's not like they kept a close eye on ammunition counts and available medical supplies like they supposedly do these days. Some of the best caches involved gear being chained underwater/in the mud bases of creeks and streams. It really spoke for the quality of the ammo cans at the time.
The problem is that this was done primarily at the enlisted level. Without the aid of channels available to officers, keeping maps updated and current was impossible.
22
u/NewCommunication1306 Mar 14 '25
It’s also the same time teams began to operated on the principle of dumping a huge amount of fire in the initial contact before the MGs could get set up and take over with more sustained fire. You’ll see that continue through similar COIN conflicts in Africa (South Africa even issued those 50rnd galil mags supposedly just for that purpose). Even into Afghanistan guys would only have a 50 rnd starter belt on the 240 so the rest of the team needed to compensate at the very start. I think a lot of guys started carrying larger belts ready to go once they realized that they need more.
18
u/AromaticWhiskey Mar 15 '25
Even into Afghanistan guys would only have a 50 rnd starter belt on the 240 so the rest of the team needed to compensate at the very start.
Teaser belts.
Some of my friends mentioned it was more convenient to carry a teaser belt on the gun, and to use it to immediately obtain fire superiority while not putting all that dead weight on the gun. Idea was that the AG would be nearby and either have a fresh belt ready to go, or straight up just link into the teaser belt.
16
u/FZ1_Flanker Connoisseur of Autism Patches Mar 15 '25
Our 240 gunners would usually turn and rip a 20-25 round burst at the direction of contact during an ambush. Then they’d grab cover and the AG would link up a 200 round belt to the rest of the starter belt and they’d get to work.
8
u/AromaticWhiskey Mar 15 '25
That's exactly what my buddies told me.
Somebody takes a shot, gunner just squares up and dumps the entire teaser in that general direction, while the AG gets a fresh (full) belt ready and waiting.
3
u/MrSmitty556x45 Mar 15 '25
Some dudes would rock 40-50 20rd magazines.
1
35
u/oh_three_dum_dum Mar 14 '25 edited Mar 14 '25
Over 100% casualty rate and most of the dudes going out on missions with them had been wounded multiple times - at least once - unless they were brand new to the unit.
There’s a book that goes into detail on a lot of their missions and some of the thought process behind the kit they carried as well as a detailed description of a standard loadout. However “standard” is sort of a bad description because they literally carried whatever they wanted however they wanted to carry it. So they ended up with a wide variety of foreign or self-made/modified chest rigs and gear.
It’s called SOG: The Secret Wars of America’s Commandos in Vietnam by John Plaster (former MACV-SOG officer).
Edit: They also pioneered a lot of the tactics, methods, and extraction techniques we still use today.
38
u/KilroyNeverLeft Mar 14 '25
It's also a matter of mission set. Vietnam era SOF guys were going deep behind enemy lines without resupply, overwatch, support, or backup conducting raids and reconnaissance.
Conversely, GWOT era SOF were doing a lot of short raids with overwatch, air support, and backup just minutes away.
A GWOT era SEAL would be ill-equipped to handle a LRRP into North Vietnam. Likewise, a Vietnam era SOG guy would be ill-equipped to handle a kill-capture raid in Iraq. Different teams handle different wars differently, the only time it creates an issue is if you have echo chambers (cough cough Goobers Group cough cough) declaring that their experience is the only experience that matters.
19
61
u/abeefwittedfox Mar 14 '25
There's such a big difference between big army infantry/prepared citizen loadouts and the High Speed Low T action hero kits people fantasize about when building our kit.
32
u/PKMNtrainerKing Mar 14 '25
Heard. 90 bullets and a tourniquet is simply not enough when you are your own support and supply chain.
19
u/Altaccount330 Mar 14 '25
The stuff military SOF used to do is more the domain of the CIA paramilitary forces now due to risk intolerance.
42
u/That_Damn_Tall_Guy Mar 14 '25
If you don’t have atleast 300 rounds on body. You don’t have enough ammo
53
u/grahampositive Mar 14 '25 edited May 29 '25
scary unite plate shocking numerous employ enter physical abundant march
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
8
27
u/ebitdangit Mar 14 '25
"Enough ammo for what?" is the important question though. Enough to make it through a firefight with a near peer? Enough to get past a checkpoint of poorly armed gang members? Enough to patrol a ranch?
24
u/UntilTheEyesShut Mar 14 '25
SOG guys were also under constant threat of being compromised by platoon to company sized elements while they were doing long range stuff. not super applicable to anyone here imo.
8
u/Edwardteech Mar 14 '25
Enough to never have to say "i was down to my pistol".
1
u/ebitdangit Mar 14 '25
I'm fine being down to my pistol in a CCW situation. The point is there are many situations that require only a few mags, and there are many that require many mags. Assuming everyone here fits one use case or the other is foolish.
6
u/Edwardteech Mar 14 '25
If i started with my pistol sure.
If i started with a rifle that means its a real shit situation. I want my rifle up when I'm done.
1
u/That_Damn_Tall_Guy Mar 15 '25
Idk enough ammo for any situation that might present itself. You never know what you’re gonna run into. If the US devolved into a situation where you need to carry a rifle and kit everywhere you go
-22
u/Swanky_Gear_Snob Mar 14 '25
Honestly, if the federal government allowed civilians to patrol and secure the border, I think combat would be a forgone conclusion. I also think way more people would volunteer than most think. What's scary is the amount of advanced weaponry the cartels have purchased from Ukraine.
25
u/ebitdangit Mar 14 '25
What's scary is the amount of advanced weaponry the cartels have purchased from Ukraine.
There's literally 0 evidence for this.
-21
u/Swanky_Gear_Snob Mar 14 '25
You don't know what you're talking about. There is absolutely evidence of this. It may not be public. Whether you believe me or not is up to you.
14
u/wollybob Mar 14 '25
jUsT TrUsT mE BrO
-10
u/Swanky_Gear_Snob Mar 14 '25
The fact that people think large criminal organizations haven't taken full advantage of the MASSIVE export of weapons into a corrupt war zone is baffling.
21
u/wollybob Mar 14 '25
Hey everyone, this guy has sucked at least 39 dicks. i have a bunch of evidence but you'll just have to take my word for it. Trust me.
9
u/Work-Safe-Reddit4450 Mar 14 '25
Hey I heard it too, right here in this very thread from you so that must mean something right?
6
u/migvelio Mar 15 '25
There is absolutely evidence of this guy sucking that many dicks. It may not be public. Whether you believe me or not is up to you.
1
12
u/Iguessiwearlipstick Mar 14 '25
Show me the evidence. I was involved in the auto defensas movement back in the early 2010s. Almost all the gear and weapons were from the US.
10
-7
u/Swanky_Gear_Snob Mar 14 '25
Almost all the gear and weapons were from the US.
You kind of proved my point by what you said...
12
u/No-Resolution-7782 Mar 15 '25
Macv sog are probably the bravest men who've ever lived. The stories those guys tell wouldn't be believable if you put in a movie that you advertise as complete fiction.
14
12
u/VXMerlinXV Mar 15 '25
Once went to a medical conference and randomly sat next to a retired LRRP medic. I was too early on in my career to realize at all that o should have bought the guy lunch and dinner just to pick his brain.
10
u/USSZim Mar 14 '25
Our family friend was in Vietnam around 1968-69. He said he started off carrying a lot of water, but traded the weight for more ammo. He said he'd have a bandoleer of M16 magazines, his belt full of magazines, 2 bandoleer for his M79, and a belt for the M60.
3
u/1corvidae1 Mar 14 '25
How much water is a lot? I remembered carrying 3L + for a 50km hike , I felt pretty dead.
8
u/SoCalSurvivalist Mar 15 '25
Only 3L? Must not have been in desert county. I've packed out 6L +1qt into dry country before and ended up having to split my water with another guy who's water bladder burst on day 2. We were all very happy when we reached the slow dripping spring on day 3.
5
u/1corvidae1 Mar 15 '25
I was in hot humid but no shade place. It sucked so so much
4
u/SoCalSurvivalist Mar 15 '25
I feel that, gotta prepare for that hot dry weather. The one time I almost got heat stroke I was pre-hydrated, had drank over a gallon of water en route, and was hiking through rock canyons for 8mi with a 110f+ ambient.
There I was cooling my feet in the stream after we set up camp, my mind, body, and I were 3 different consciousness internally arguing with each other over if we should panic or if things were ok. Half a gallon of water, some food, a nap, and 2 exceeding migraine later and we were ok.
Since then I don't fuck around with water and overpack it, and have been trying to remember to bring electrolytes and drink mixes to avoid sweating/peeing them all out.
7
u/Shireling_S_3 Mar 15 '25
I built my kit to 14-15 mags and I’m still trying to find ways to add more… if the ammo slows you down then that’s a sign to hit the gym more.
6
u/steppinraz0r Mar 15 '25
No one that has actually served in a ground combat role thinks you always only need 3 mags. Kit is mission-specific and SOF DA is different from line infantry sustainment. Today’s SOF would still carry a fuckton of ammo if they were fighting in a Vietnam-like environment with limited support and resupply. The other thing to remember is the vast majority of infantry missions in Vietnam were search and destroy and not direct action raids.
It’s the insta-larpers that think otherwise.
3
u/PKMNtrainerKing Mar 15 '25
It’s the insta-larpers that think otherwise.
Oh, so I posted in the correct sub then
5
u/ChrisLS8 Mar 15 '25
I have the ability to carry 9 mags on my SPC or more. 10+ on my chest rig. Most of us are too fat to worry about being high speed
5
Mar 15 '25
1960 or 2025 you can never have to much ammo. Ever. Ask anyone who's had to lay down suppresive fire before
1
4
Mar 15 '25
SOF Now: SOMEONE TOOK A POT SHOT AT US WITH A 22!!! WE NEED EVERY AIRCRAFT IN THE THEATER AT OUR LOCATION NOW!!
SOF back then: If I bring 2 guns that means I can shoot twice as much.
3
2
2
u/That-Ad-429 Mar 15 '25
In addition to stuffing 20 mags loosely(mag pouches without separations) they also figured out how to prep grenades to be thrown with one hand and their teeth(a unique mix of clipping retainer pins and duct tape). They would also time the fuse to air burst their grenades.
1
u/Far-Cardiologist4590 Mar 14 '25
In my pack is a 30cal with 360rds, 8 mags/120 on clips on top of a 7/8 mag load out
1
Mar 15 '25
Bro, we have 6 magazines on our vests here in norway. Along with other stuff, how is that too heavy
1
u/TheJesterScript Mar 15 '25
A wise man once told me, "Take as much ammo as you can beg, borrow or steal."
1
1
u/SettingPuzzled5538 Jun 13 '25
Exactly because of these guys that I carry 12 magazines between my webbing and chest rig. Unless you can count on someone coming to resupply you, you probably shouldn't ape the guys that have littlebirds on standby to bring you whatever you need.
0
723
u/EmmettLaine Mar 14 '25
Tbf a lot of this is because back then SOF operated with very little support. Truly alone and unafraid.
Nowadays it’s the opposite and USSOF does not operate without a ton of support. Because we figured out that force multipliers multiply the force of other force multipliers.