r/tacticalgear • u/andrewgrabowski • 1d ago
Question In 2019 SEAL Team 6 & SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 1, were inserted into North Korea to plant a device. They were equipped with "untraceable weapons loaded with untraceable ammunition." What kind of weapons would these be?
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/05/us/navy-seal-north-korea-trump-2019.html682
u/Atticus1354 1d ago
Its not some top secret magic guns. Its just guns and ammo bought through back channels. Local weapons or weapons seized during operations would be common.
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u/Swimfly235 1d ago
Yeah every time the navy posts a pic about interdicting some vessel from iran smuggling weapons, I always assume the government keeps the new production stuff.
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u/irksomedeference 1d ago
Interestingly enough, you're correct. US SOCOM runs a historical repository where models of every production weapon are housed - warehouse sized(a large walmart) and every firing mechanism component tracked in RFID lockers separately from the weapons which are stored on shelves and shopping carts facilitate movements and collection. It's a trip. Super chill instructors taught me so much when i was FAPd out way back in my GWOT days.
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u/GameBoyUnAdvanced 1d ago
That's pretty awesome! Is it just for current production or are there some historical oddities that would be common place enough today in some insurgency to warrant space on a shelf there?
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u/irksomedeference 1d ago
Every conflict weapon is retained - there are modern weapons of any and all kinds as well as weapons used historically and acquired through weapons caches seized during operations. Many of these are de-mil'd (filing or removing firing components /barrels filled, etc) but many are recovered in near mint condition and are either repurposed for training and familiarization uses or historical retention. Also.. fun fact. Range trailers are hot whenever you want to test their functions are serviceable A .50 cal SASR round only makes it about 3-4 ft into 8ft rubber stopping wall and set the sound deadening foam on the wall on fire 2ft radius around barrel. Fun times.
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u/weenis-flaginus 1d ago
You fapped?
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u/irksomedeference 1d ago
Nah, I was fapd-out at that point.
Gwot numbers aren't sustainable.
Eventually, we all get fapd out.
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u/tristinDLC 21h ago
Yeah, local weapons purchases to supplement their initial loadouts for their mission. They still carry various weapons with them for security while they are making their way to wherever they are working.
I did ~10yrs on a US submarine operating in the Pacific and our primary role was SEAL operations. We were outfitted with two drydock shelters on the top of our hull with an SDV (essentially a mini-sub) in one and a RHIB boat in the other. We'd deploy SEALs while still submerged and near shore, they'd drive the SDV closer where they could then swim ashore, and then we would provide mission overwatch. When they were done they'd get picked up by the SDV that was still in-area, drive out to where the sub was, and we'd retrieve everyone back in through the drydock
We specifically worked with SDV 1 mentioned in that link and we've worked with tons of Teams guys.
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u/No-Researcher-6186 14h ago
I think this is the whole reason that SAK-21 rifle is being made.
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u/Atticus1354 14h ago
Thats more to match local forces and use local supply lines for ammo and magazines. Its been done before in different iterations.
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u/bigwang123 1d ago
I kinda assumed it might be combloc caliber weapons
It’s not like those guys would have been disappearing into the crowds of North Koreans going about their daily business had things gone (even more) terribly wrong
Oh man imagine if it was x39 MCX LTs lol
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u/Adventurous-Ad-5471 1d ago
More than likely, some kind of AK platform using ammunition manufactured in Russia, China, or somewhere like that
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u/jacgren 1d ago
There's also combloc caliber ammo without head stamps that we've used before in similar operations. Usually all the gear for missions like this is completely sterile.
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u/ChevTecGroup 1d ago
Idk. That's kind of a giveaway in itself. Better to use something traceable to someone else.
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u/Lawd_Fawkwad 1d ago
The goal is to be deniable enough nothing sticks, not do false-flag attacks.
If captures the moment they open their mouth it's going to be clear they're Americans, if the gear is left behind but sanitized no one can trace it back to anyone and the US can say they don't know who those guys are.
Think something along the lines of the little green men in Crimea who initially couldn't be actually linked to Russia so were existing in a weird limbo where they weren't officially anyone's.
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u/ChevTecGroup 1d ago
It's not a false flag if the ammo has been exported to 100 different countries. I'm just saying that it is more suspicious to use sterile ammo and the US government knows that.
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u/yung_heartburn coyote 1d ago
Probably just combloc and thirdhand european small arms purchased through a series of blinds and cut-outs from independent arms dealers. It’s not in case of capture— a team of roided-out seals captured or killed in DPRK would be a pretty simple puzzle to solve (probably could just read the tattoos, y’know?), and nobody can withstand interrogation forever. It’s probably in case they had to ditch the iron before exfil— if security forces found a 416 or a mk18 lying around it would be pretty obvious “americans have been here” territory, whereas some random AK or even g3 obfuscates the source a little more. This is a major difference between “covert” and “clandestine” action, btw
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u/coolbrobeans 21h ago
Would you mind elaborating on the difference between covert and clandestine? I never considered them to be that different.
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u/yung_heartburn coyote 20h ago edited 20h ago
They are kind of nested terms. Short dirty version is this: covert is “we don’t know who the fuck stole that usb stick” while clandestine is the target never knowing the stick went missing. In other words, covert ops obfuscate the source of the op, while clandestine ops (ideally) obfuscate that there was an op at all.
The stated objective of the seal mission in DPRK was to install a tap on executive comms, which is a clandestine mission— if the target understands that something has happened, the whole op is considered blown. That’s why they smoked those poor fishermen and boogied. On a covert op, they could have kept going to objective— probably they wouldn’t have, but they could have, say during a shooting war or some circumstances— but since their presence was discovered in a meaningful way, they shitcanned the whole thing.
ETA: i suppose the weapons thing isn’t necessarily a great illustration of the difference between the terms, although i feel like i made some mental connection earlier that’s lost to me now.
Also usual disclaimer that we don’t even know if this story is true, intelligence community/we’re through the looking glass etc etc. Never trust any source of information without verifying three times, and even then only lend it partial creedence
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u/diprivanity 1d ago
The finest Type 56s, x39 soft points and handloaded subs based on Chinese ammo, PBS cans or similar.
I mean it's not rocket science.
The interesting conversation is how anal do you get about the ammo. NK is known to date code their ammo IIRC so you can replicate those for hiding in plain sight, go with whatever the norinco casings have stamped, or go completely sterile... which might be the most unusual to find expended in NK. I'd imagine they're pulling bullets and confirming powder loads on anything getting sent to the arms room. Don't want a Ping-Ping special double powdered round blowing up one of the few guns on mission.
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u/likeonions 1d ago
AKs
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1d ago edited 1d ago
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u/diprivanity 1d ago
Not for this purpose
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u/diprivanity 1d ago
No, the caliber you were referencing was obvious. You just don't bring in a whiz bang just created western specialty rifle in a black op with deniability concerns. Like, duh?? Hmmmm wonder who could have been responsible for this operation picture of gun only JSOC is using.
Sig is probably angling for some Euro LE contracts or future multi-caliber family pitches. GIGN recently bought a bunch of CZ Brens in 7.62x39.
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u/diprivanity 1d ago
You want me to explain, I'll explain.
First off there is pretty limited practical benefit the Sig offers over the AK for the inherent precision ceiling for the ammo they're using. And at that point, it's not enough to warrant the loss of concealment.
First concern is visual signature. Assume the team is detected, detection doesn't always result in a gunfight. The north Koreans can just watch and really we'd have no idea. If the NORKS let the tapping play out but are taking pictures, it will be obvious western forces were used if their gear is distinctive. This identification can be politically used later keeping in mind there were ongoing negotiations. A comms line the North Koreans know the Americans think they have surreptitiously tapped is more valuable than killing a few seals and creating a huge incident. In this same scenario it will be less obvious if they're all carrying AKs.
Second, it's not just bullets, it's also magazines. Assume there is a gunfight, you may as well leave the whole gun when the mags are equally distinctive. It's not a given that they will be able to police all their spent mags. Again, risk vs reward is getting real thin here.
Third, if you really want to put faith in NK forensic capabilities, the barrel markings will be different between AKs and the Sig.
Lastly, I think we're kind of assuming that MCX is over the beach ready.
As far as NODS and thermals, a little scrim goes a long way to making distinctive outlines of popular optics less apparent. They're also probably helmet/skull crusher mounted vs on the weapon.
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u/captchairsoft 1d ago
I know it would blow the minds of most of this sub but... People started stacking bodies long before nods were a thing.
The greatest military on earth, with practically unlimited technology and money has been fought to a draw, twice in the last 50 years by dudes in pajamas and flip flops with unmaintained combloc rifles, hell some Afghans were still using Martini Henrys, British service rifles from the 1800s you don't have to have bells and whistles to do sneaky shit, they just make it easier most of the time, but sometimes bells and whistles make it harder depending on your objectives and needs.
Also, everybody always takes it for granted that the whole story as leaked is true. It could have been SEALS, it could also be a bunch a collection of every spec ops dude with a Korean background so they have some vague possibility of blending if shit goes sideways.
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u/Leafy0 1d ago
They sold a bunch of 556xis in x39 that use Al mags or this purpose.
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u/diprivanity 1d ago
More like for the purpose of selling guns to countries with huge stockpiles of AK mags and ammo.
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u/TylerDurdenisreal 1d ago
no you just said something really dumb lmfao, a sig spear regardless of caliber is super fucking traceable dude
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u/rigat0ni_p0ny 20h ago
You’re getting crushed because you’re under the impression that Sig crated the x39 Spear for deniability when they actually created it for cartridge compatibility with local forces. Those are two different things.
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u/hotChihuahua69 1d ago
Untraceable???
I'd say they used ammo and vehicle only found in Russia, China, Pakistan, India, Iran...
Places that share some common links to those items at one time or another...
I'd say some Hezbollah seizure found an alternative use 🤣🤣🤣
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u/OGDREADLORD666 1d ago
Damn they really just swam to shore and murdered some hungry dudes looking for shellfish and dipped out.
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u/diprivanity 1d ago
Evil imperialist seals deny local north Koreans opportunity to starve to death later
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u/MrZeusyMoosey 11h ago
Now they’re going to go home and get tax payer paid therapy for their PTSD from committing premeditated murder. And don’t forget to thank them for their service!
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u/Cosmonate 1d ago
Is it a stupid question to ask if they would use a team of Asian seals for operations like this?
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u/No_Yesterday_2788 Connoisseur of Autism Patches 1d ago
You think there’s enough for a whole team though?
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u/Censored_88 1d ago
Probably just Soviet AKs and milsurp ammo they picked up in a conflict zone of South Sudan or the like.
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u/GenericUsername817 1d ago
Sterile guns, non-American or Allied weapons with serial numbers & identifiable markings removed
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u/FauxyOne 1d ago
How do they get deniable weapons?
They send a local asset to Dara Adam Khel. He buys 3 x the amount of top-shelf weapons and ammo they will need (sealed Soviet or Russian surplus, k pill and pays in local cash, or trades for goods in kind.
He then goes around back and tests every weapon, and returns or resells the ones that he thinks don’t pass.
Then he meets his CIA handler in Mardan, hands it off, that dude puts it all in sealed and labeled diplomatic pouches, those go to the consulate in Peshawar.
After that it disappears.
Super simple.
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u/jamison01 1d ago
American weapons and equipment they picked up in Afghanistan of course. Just make sure it's labeled Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan or whatever marking they use. The North Koreans will never know.
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u/Nomadic_Narwhal 1d ago
Likely local style weapons, but without serial numbers, branding, or identifying markings.
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u/j_p_golden 18h ago
Extremely stupid question, so forgive me, but isn't that type of mission more appropriate for the CIA's SAC?
Mainly given the type of clandestine ops they have done in the past and the type of target (NK) that this mission required?
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u/InitiativeSeveral652 15h ago
It’s probably under CIA authority. The CIA use military guys all the time but it’s under title 50.
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u/MathiasThomasII 17h ago
Any black market or civilian weapons and ammo. Anything that isn’t traceable back to the seals.
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u/BlueEcho762 28m ago
I think that most of the time if CIA and special operations had to have “untraceable weapons” they’d probably use functional ones confiscated in past operations from across multiple theaters. Ie weapons collected in operations in the Middle East or Africa usually old Soviet weapons such as the AK. Though these days everyone and their mother has an AR and could easily just use ones direct from factories before they were serialized or had any manufacturing markers on them.
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u/Mental_clef 1d ago
I’d imagine they were local loadouts. Not using American equipment is usually a given for plausible deniability.