r/thesopranos • u/sassysasasaas • 1d ago
Therapist Carmella saw (old man):”I think were your husband to turn himself in, read this book (crime & punishment) and reflect on his crimes everyday for 7 years in a cell he might be redeemed” …. Huh?
What the hell is this crazy man talking about?
He has no idea what Tony has done but somehow his prescription of reading this book + jail time will save him.
What kind of insane logic is this? What kind of a quack would seriously say this? Therapy is such a joke, a racket for the yews
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u/Saturn0815 1d ago
It is mentioned in Talking Sopranos, I believe one of the writers of the episode was Robin Green. Green's brother is or was a therapist. He once was treating a guy who was a pedophile. Green's brother told the pedophile to turn himself in, and when he was in jail to read Crime and Punishment, and reflect on his misdeeds.
It was actually based on something that happened in real life.
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u/The1Ylrebmik 1d ago
Hmmm, I'll have to listen to the episode, but that is strange. There is nothing criminal about being a pedophile, and if he wasn't an offender it was wrong to treat him as such. On the other hand if he was an offender the therapist didn't need to convince him to turn himself in, at least, current laws require a therapist to report someone who is engaging in harm to the authorities as Melfi told Tony in the beginning.
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u/CursedIbis 20h ago
There is nothing criminal about being a pedophile
Even with context... yikes
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u/HungryHedgehog8299 19h ago
I think he’s trying to say “there’s nothing wrong with having those urges as long as you absolutely never act on them and try to get help for them” but yeah rough way to start
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u/CursedIbis 18h ago
If he'd said that it would have been fine, and in fact I would agree, but there's a very important difference between the two.
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u/FocacciaHusband 16h ago
Ew no fucking way. Now YOU guys are getting it wrong.
If someone doesn't act on their pedo urges, then it's NOT criminal (as the commenter said), but it is DEFINITELY wrong. Why tf would you agree that it's not wrong to have pedo urges as long as you don't act on them??
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u/HungryHedgehog8299 16h ago
I never said it wasn’t wrong, I was explaining what the other guy meant. It’s still wrong whether or not you act on it, which is why anyone with those urges should 100% try to get help.
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u/CursedIbis 15h ago
If someone cannot help having those thoughts/urges then we shouldn't punish them for that. Punishment should only occur if they act on them.
Is the fact that they still have those urges horrible? Yes of course. But judging them for it and treating them as criminals is only going to make them less likely to seek help in the first place.
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u/FocacciaHusband 14h ago
Where did you see me say anything about punishment? I just said it was wrong, which you seem to agree with, since you say it is "horrible," which is even stronger language than "wrong."
Idk what your comment is attempting to respond to...
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u/CursedIbis 13h ago
I'm just making clear what my position is, since I don't think I did that entirely the first time.
Horrible doesn't mean the same thing as wrong, by the way.
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u/JezzCrist 13h ago
Depends on the kind of wrong you mean. From most people’s POV? Sure, horrible. From nature point? Same as any urge. Not like they can help it.
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u/Pheniquit 3h ago
It’s wrong, however having the thoughts and urges arise is not a wrongful act. It’s a non-act as there are no decisions. Its more like you’re being morally sullied by proximity to these urges.
However, there is no decision we can point to - and if you share what ethicists call the WEIRD moral perspective we are operating on now (Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, Democratic) a lack of moral decisions means there’s no wrongness. Thoughts may be despicable, but you have not done wrong.
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u/SafetyAlpaca1 15h ago
It depends on what you mean by "wrong". Is it wrong in the sense that they ideally shouldn't have those urges, and should see them as a problem to be fixed? Yes. Is it wrong to have those urges morally? No, in the same way people aren't morally wrong for having intrusive thoughts.
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u/The1Ylrebmik 15h ago
Ok, allow me to clarify as well. I clearly said criminal. There is a phenomena in therapy circles that Dan Savage calls "gold star pedophiles" those are people who realize they have those urges but make an absolute vow to never act on it. The problem is there are people who still want people like that to be turned over to the police. So these people never receive help and we have no opportunity to treat them and learn about their disorder because they are afraid to say anything. I happen to agree. People should not be turned into authorities for thought crimes. Other people do disagree.
Being a child molester is different. When you go into therapy they straight up tell you there are certain scenarios where they have to report you to the authorities and harming a child is one of them. I also agree with this practice.
So I was just commenting on the fact that the story as explained seemed strange because in neither scenario was there something where the therapist had to convince the patient on a course of action.
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u/SafetyAlpaca1 15h ago
I know, I was responding specifically to that other guy
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u/The1Ylrebmik 15h ago
I know. I was just responding to you to clarify for the sake of the thread. Not that it appears to be doing much good.
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u/Astazha 18h ago
I think based on all of that we can assume that the pedophile indicated that they had hurt someone in the past but without enough detail for legal authorities to go on, and without indicating that they were currently hurting someone or intended to.
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u/The1Ylrebmik 15h ago
In that case, yes I would say the therapist should counsel the person to turn themselves in.
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u/Saturn0815 14h ago
The fact that the therapist told him to turn himself in, read Crime In Punishment, and to reflect on his crimes while in prison, makes it pretty clear that the guy was acting out on whatever sick thoughts he had in his mind.
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u/Stellaaahhhh 17h ago
There is nothing criminal about being a pedophile, and if he wasn't an offender it was wrong to treat him as such.
How to say you're a pedophile without saying you're a pedophile.
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u/RobertoBolano 1d ago
He specifically says reflect on his crime for 7 years because that’s how Crime and Punishment ends.
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u/Pizzatimelover1959 18h ago
7 years in Siberia not a peep!
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u/Binkley62 18h ago
I wanted caviar; I compromised with borscht off the radiator!
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u/Hughkalailee 21h ago
“He MIGHT be”.
It’s not a prescription or thorough analysis. It’s a figurative long shot. Everyone knows Tony isn’t reading and studying a book (not even Tomato Sauce For Your Ass) for 7 fucking Days, never mind Years!
He’s saying it’s Not GoIng To Happen! So get the fuck over it.
And Krakower was not engaging in therapy with Carm. He’s not taking her money or presenting or attempting his profession
He’s judging and taking a firm stance of personal opinion.
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u/NitroXanax 1d ago
Were you this fucking stupid when I married you?
He knows that Tony, or any other gangster, isn't going to turn themselves in and read some book for seven years. He says that /if/ Tony were to do that, then he /might/ be redeemed. He's saying Tony is beyond redemption, and that Carmela needs to leave.
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u/Jbyrd4444 1d ago
He was the only moral and ethically sound character on the show. And it sounds like you are one that really needs to read Dostoevsky but unfortunately it would all be lost on.
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u/Trees_are_cool_ 1d ago
Charmaine wasn't ethical?
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u/Jbyrd4444 1d ago
The way she treated her warm and convivial husband was debatable.
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u/Astazha 18h ago
We don't get to see things from her viewpoint much. I think if we did it would be more emotionally obvious that Artie's bullshit is exhausting and she's tired of it. Charmaine is one of the only other civilian characters to deeply understand that these people are a cancer who spread into everything and the only way to win their game is to not play it.
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u/11twofour 11h ago
That scene where she's frustrated because he told her he'd help paint the deck and instead fucked off to hang out with Tony is a great example of this.
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u/MarcusBondi 1d ago
To really understand the moral softness of C&P I think it really needs to be read in Russian. I schlepped to page 37 before giving up. But from what little I did read, it is “less harsh” and much “warmer” in Ruski. Carmella would have liked it.
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u/Every-Incident-1832 15h ago
How is it warmer in Russia? I read it in English
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u/MarcusBondi 8h ago edited 4h ago
Hi - Dostoevsky’s use of diminutive phrases or words in Russian (that don’t exist in English) which show familiarity or affection to make feelings, actions or scenes seems warm/cute/friendly/funny.
The warmth & implied emotion doesn’t really translate to English. In certain parts the English translation reads rather clinically and factually without the implied warmth or humour or softness.
Even when he walks in the sun shining on and warming his back as he walks down the street thinking about his life hits different in Russian, after I first read it in English and it was just “he’s walking down the street..,”
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u/Every-Incident-1832 6h ago
Huh interesting, I mean the subject matter isn’t exactly warm but I could see parts where it is. The parts with with Raz were always upbeat
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u/Random-Cpl 20h ago
He’s talking about saving Tony’s soul. He might redeem himself if he took ownership of his crimes and repented and reflected on the nature of evil deeds. It’s right there in the dialogue, stunad
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u/billymaysoxiclean 19h ago
I love when he says “and how’s that working out for ya?” It just shows how Carmela was just as corrupt as Tony, because right when she gets home from this session, she asks Tony for money to donate to the school. It’s all about image for her. She liked having the money, no matter the cost. Tried to act holier than thou. Even Tony said “You know Carmela you’re only religious when it suits you.” Tony was bad but at least he wasn’t trying to act like he was disgusted by his lifestyle. It also pissed me off when she threatened Joan to write Meadow that letter of recommendation. She was the biggest hypocrite besides Tony. I couldn’t stand Carmela.
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u/billybassbigmouth 1d ago
Writers felt the need for a quick moral reality check for the viewers.. then make them quickly turn a blind eye just like Carmela. They like to do this trick over and over throughout the show. It's fun, no?
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u/Visionary_Socialist 21h ago
I feel like this is what separates the show from others of the same type. Lots of funny moments and lots of times you feel real sympathy and override the true nature of these people because you see how they are with family or their own internal problems. So basically every character has one/multiple moments where we’re reminded they’re all terrible people who do terrible things and are totally complicit.
Paulie smothering Minn, Ralph murdering Tracee are just two examples. Just absolutely bottom-barrel criminality and sociopathy that you can’t look past.
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u/JonMardukasMidnight 19h ago
I always thought it was a writer getting in a shot about psychiatry and the non-judgmentalism that pervades the culture. Maybe a little judgment couldn’t hurt from time to time.
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u/boytoy421 19h ago
What he's really saying is that for Tony to not be a shitlord (and for carmella to not be complicit) Tony has to proactively do the work for reformation. In the show (and in real life) a therapist is more like a fitness trainer than a traditional doctor in that a doctor is like "oh your shit is fucked, I'll fix it" and a therapist is like "hey lets figure out what shit exactly is unfucked so you can go unfuck it"
But it's just a racket for the jews
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u/Hairy_Economist_6010 17h ago
At this point, you can no longer sympathize with Carmella, if you ever did. She’s a knowing participant.
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u/11twofour 14h ago
A lot of people have told you to read the book. And they're correct. Go read it and you'll understand the scene.
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u/No_Pizza_No_Deal 11h ago
I think he should start getting raped in parking garage stairwells because Melfi brought in TEN TIMES the insight as him!!
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u/Bean_Griffter67 6h ago
“You can never say you weren’t told”…. More religious instruction than a therapy session. That psychiatrist should have been a Rabbi.
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u/telepatheye 1d ago
What joos?
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u/Bean_Griffter67 3h ago
If I made that remark about others represented at this table, I would be considered a bigot
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u/HauntedGatorFarm 9h ago
Well, Dostoevsky was commenting on the metaphysical nihilism of his contemporaries when he wrote Crime & Punishment, a similar philosophy that Tony seems to use as justification for his crimes.
Raskolnikov uses reason to cast himself as a person whose mission obscures the morality that governs the lives of normal men as well as to recast his self-serving crimes as victimless as the victim is morally corrupt. Tony also rationalizes his actions as being part of his job and only affecting those who make poor decisions or are otherwise morally corrupt.
The juxtaposition is even more relevant when you consider the characters of Carmella and Sonya. Sonya's moral purity and love for Raskolnikov demands he confess his crimes to the world whereas Carmella enables Tony's crimes, enjoying the social and economic advantages he provides her.
The difference is that college prick ain't built for this life. He cracks, he whines, he practically walks himself into a fuckin’ cell. Couldn’t handle the guilt, starts spinnin’ out, bam — cops got him. Tony does his dirt and keeps it movin'. Cops, Fed, whoever --he don't panic, he don't talk. He's not some rat fuck law school drop out. He's Tony Fuckin' Soprano.
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u/Sad-Illustrator-8847 16h ago
most unrealistic character in the show..who ever heard of a shrink not taking money?
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u/Trees_are_cool_ 1d ago
The guy was spitting truth up until that point, maybe. But you're right. When you're right you're right. Who the hell is this prick to pass judgment and hand down sentences to a guy he don't even know?
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u/ThunderMontgomery 17h ago
I really love and really hate this scene.
On the one hand it’s incredibly well acted and written and Dr. Krakower is right.
On the other hand, it’s just dropped in from nowhere. It could take place at any point in the series and it wouldn’t matter. It’s a scene for the audience not for the characters
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u/Loud-Vegetable-8885 1d ago
I think he's offering his own philosophical version of what might be a possible redemption for Tony...and he qualifies it with "might be" in relation to redeeming himself...
He's the only person Carmela sees who rightly calls Carmela out on her bullshit. He doesn't mollycoddle her or allow her any way of rationalising her situation. If anything, he gives her something more valuable than therapy. Actual, unadulterated truth.
But what do I know, I'm a fat fucking crook from New Jersey!