r/unOrdinary • u/Nearby-Instance9987 • 20h ago
DISCUSSION Is John good Anti-Hero?
John has shown to have good sense of morality until pushed into a breaking point causing his moral to become twisted. He’s been in the position of both weak and strong, bullied for being weak by the strong and bullied the weak for being strong. When William introduced John to “Unordinary” after John’s out burst and his event from the authorities, John became somewhat on equal grounds. John understood the temptation to rule the weak as a high tier and the suffering that the low tiers endured. So when John basically started a war with his own people when he was King in Wellston just to prove a point, Remi and the other High Tiers didn’t do anything until their power were threatened. John knew he wasn’t fit to lead, wasn’t responsible for his actions, but these so called High Tiers pushed him to a breaking point where he had to show them the consequences of their actions.
John’s own breaking point was a catalyst to what low tier suffered. John mirrored the abuse high tier gave, and mirrored the what low tiers endured.
John isn’t some naive kid, he’s a realist from both worlds who’s willing to go so far just to prove a good point.
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u/Pen_Front 19h ago
No, he's a villain turned hero. He had a redemption arc he's not having a redemption arc.
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u/Nearby-Instance9987 18h ago
That’s why I used past tense to differentiate from current. Despite his redemption arc, he still shoulders the same view just on a brighter scale, you can say he’s gone to give Remi a chance. And the reason I mark John as a Anti-Hero is because no Hero brutality beats their victims nor do they give in to their emotions to hurt innocent people. A Hero doesn’t think “They killed my father, so I’m bringing them to ruins” John is more fit as an Anti-Hero because he wants to bring down corruption but with extreme lengths, at the end of Season 2, he dominated the authorities at maximum output with the abilities he had, and reminder these are mid tiers who have no idea what the high level authorities are doing so John was willing to go hands against innocent people of the Bearu rather than just escape with Remi and the others. Arlo, Remi, Isen, and Red Head, they simply knocked out their enemies to avoid greater causalities but John, yeah John doesn’t give a crap.
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u/Pen_Front 18h ago
That's... Just not the intended message, it's a rather extreme interpretation, for one John doesn't attack innocent's, and while he has strong negative emotions that doesn't stop him from being a hero. Batmans definitely a hero but he shares most of John's attitude. The brutality is the only real point against him but that at most stops him from being a paragon which I think you've confused with hero. Invincible is a hero and brutal (though I heard that changes as time goes on.
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u/Nearby-Instance9987 18h ago
John is too blinded to understand that not everyone on the Bearu is within the same picture, he’s not assuming that someone is pulling the strings. John by now should know someone is using the authority privilege to their advantage, that the Bearu is just a face.
Batman and John are similar but John doesn’t have a moral obligation to not kill.
Invincible is brutal in situations, he’s fighting opponents that can kill hundreds or take over planets. Batman and Mark draw a line to stop when the opponent is incapacitated.
John doesn’t have a line to draw at least not yet, he has to be reminded.
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u/Pen_Front 18h ago
I'm not sure about that, I don't think he has a particular disdain for bureau agents and his conviction is moreso against the institution. I could see it creating biases for him but I doubt he plans on tracking down agents. For example the upcoming plot seems to be relying on the involvement with Cassandra and I bet they're gonna end up working together. Along with that while not every agent is evil it's clear that the institution isn't just overbearing but specifically evil and johns disdain isn't just personal but logical.
And while John doesn't have a "no kill rule" he doesn't seem to want to kill either (well barring some personal grudges in the bureau probably) and is fine with incapacitation, even the claw girl survived.
And he does stop now, sure he needs help drawing the line but once its drawn he stops, he cares about that as well it's shown how much he's terrified of going to far.
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u/Nearby-Instance9987 17h ago
When he admitted he wanted to storm the Bureau (Didn’t realize I was misspelling it the whole time) he didn’t care who was involved, he just wanted to strike the authorities down. And Furry did reveal that not everyone is aware of their plans. Cass is already an example of someone unaware of the authorities work. John’s idea of fighting is logical but it’s illogical to attack an unknown enemy, all he knows is that the Bureau is here for them, but he doesn’t know which is necessarily the culprit. His main objective should’ve been escaping and letting Remi, Cass, and Kuyo do the intelligent gathering. John has good intentions, but deals with them badly granted he is still improving but his current actions is what separates him from a Hero.
Also claw girl only survived because Arlo called Elaine, it’s no wonder she lived because of a healer. She probably would’ve died or sustained heavy injuries, but then again they also had Doc during that time still.
John just takes unnecessary actions that don’t point him as a hero, it’s his motivation that points him as one.
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u/N-ShadowFrog Ability: Bacteria Manipulation 18h ago
I'd say John's path was,
Villian(New Boston)
Civilian(Cripple)
Anti-Hero(Joker)
Villain(Tyrant)
Civilian(Post-Tyrant)
Hero(Current)
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u/Anonymouseeeeeeeeees 19h ago
He's a hero. He was bad in the beginning, but now he wants to take down a corrupt organization
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u/Nearby-Instance9987 19h ago
He’s willing with extreme measures, he’s not hesitant on brutal beat downs. It’s noticeable how everyone will instant KO people or render them immovable, but John will take the initiative to go great lengths just to win. John hasn’t killed anyone but his actions shows he’ll go further especially when it comes to Sera or his family.
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u/ProfessorVicc 18h ago
It's okay for Heroes to kill.
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u/Nearby-Instance9987 18h ago
I never said it wasn’t, I said it’s not ok for a Hero to take the initiative to go too far. Current John still takes the fights too far but he won’t take the initiative to continue after he’s won, he’s become collective but still brutal in the way he fights.
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u/ProfessorVicc 18h ago
I think the brutality is fair, he could prolong a fight and not be brutal, at the cost of his own safety, however, that is a formality reserved for friendly or sporting bouts, as he's doing the equivalent of real fighting now, it's perfectly reasonable to try and end the battles as quick and with the least amount of damage to himself or his team as possible.
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u/Nearby-Instance9987 18h ago
The best example I can pull off is during the end of S2 where the Bearu storms in, he’s unnecessary beating Bearu members who are unaware of the authorities influence instead of escaping or tagging his opponents’ with Remi’s lightning. Unless he were to go against an opponent similar to Furry, he has no reason to prolong fights especially to Bearu members he should know that aren’t “entirely” involved. He’s blinded by his own judgment. One of the few fights I can understand him prolonging is during the time Sera and him were getting their abilities back and he destroys the machine, I can let that slide because he was focused on the objective and completed a side objective without clouding his judgment into forgetting about their main objective to get their abilities then leave.
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u/macauroni 9h ago
Maybe because the Bearu killed his dad and is extracting his mom's dna for their evil plans?? Maybe he was beating them to make sure they don't get bloody captured?? If he didn't do the "unnecessary beating" chances are they will activate their abilities. I think any normal person wants to survive ESPECIALLY if they have a bigger purpose btw if you couldn't tell
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u/Nearby-Instance9987 8h ago
Still doesn’t justify unnecessary beating? Thats justifying beating up soldiers who are just following orders given by higher command instead of instantly incapacitating them to defeat the main enemy, the head honcho. And John if doing unnecessary beating is to help not let people get captured then why didn’t he just instant KO then immediately follow up behind the others to offer assistance since he knows the Buearu is surrounding the place, with John’s assistance, blasting through the Bureau before any other reinforcements would’ve been a breeze. John just wanted to vent out his anger in a justified but unnecessary way. Are you willing to lose a pointless battle after accomplishing nothing? That was what John was doing, what does he accomplish with beating up some grunts, he just makes himself an open target and could possibly let the Authorities experiment on him too. As far as I’m aware, Furry was the only one that was a main threat to John and the others, the grunts would’ve lost before Furry came to assist and John alongside the others would’ve already escaped.
John had a reasonable crash out, but also illogical. Because theres no actual accomplishment.
Also John was able to instant KO his opponents, and with Remi’s lightning, he could blitz away but chooses to remain and continue.
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u/capricorn_the_goat 18h ago
Honestly he’s not really a hero or villain at any point in the series. Maybe in the King John Arc and in New Bostin, but even that was just him being pushed over the edge and having mental breakdowns. He’s not really motivated by a greater good, all of his goals have personal motivations (mostly being revenge and correcting injustices, which aren’t necessarily wrong per se). But he’s not selfish or evil, he just wants to live a good life with his friends and not be involved with the drama and damage that comes with the hierarchy just like he wanted at the start of season 2 part 2.
Fundamentally, John isn’t a bad person or a villain, but he’s also not a good person or “hero” in the way Remi, Rei, or Kuyo are. He’s a regular person who got a bad hand (obligatory cards joke), and unfortunately has been the one who has to deal justice to the people who were mistreating him and avenge his family
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u/Ok_Caterpillar_6957 18h ago
John was a hero, got a reality check, gain power, was consumed by set power, turn evil, got another reality check (prison), went docile, didn’t care for good or evil, Arlo poked the bear, John became a shadow mob boss ordering Arlo, Arlo refused. John became a revolutionary (Tuesday), John secret got revealed, John bacame a full villain again, John got a long term reality check/lesson/redemption (sera beating him and he realizing he in the wrong). John conflicted on killing, police to family away, John not evil but suicidal (going down as long as the police burn), got the last reality check, now he a full on good guy.
Will John need 1 more reality check? Maybe a small one but he is a good guy now. Was a bad guy. And became like Uquiora.
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u/Nearby-Instance9987 17h ago
I wouldn’t say full on good guy, yet. He is making progress, but his behavior keeps switching back and forth.
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u/macauroni 9h ago
You're actually ridiculous dude holyshit. John has EVERY RIGHT TO BE AGGRAVATED? His dad was MURDERED and his mom became a frickin LAB RAT to protect him and his dad. What makes you think he is gonna be all goody 2 shoes now after quite literally becoming an orphan?
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u/Nearby-Instance9987 8h ago
I never said he didn’t have the right to be angry? His anger is just directed to the wrong individuals. Sure the Bureau is directed by the Authorities, buts its the higher ups calling the shots and keeping the lower ones in the dark. His anger should be directed at the ones pulling the strings, not the ones being manipulated.
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u/Ok_Caterpillar_6957 5h ago
That why I said he might get a small reality check. Like he about to throw the mission for revenge and all it’ll take is sera calmly saying “not now John, we will get them all… please, I don’t want to lose you again”. But John is like a batfamily member now, maybe Jason. Fully good but you know he will catch bodies
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u/FallenInstant 17h ago
He's complicated, thats the easiest way to put it, as i dont think he really should be described as a hero or a villain for most of the story. Ill try to summarize my thoughts and put it into hero and villain terms.
John as a kid is a bystander, unable to do much against superpowered people
John with his powers starts as a hero but descends into more villainous aligning behaviors by the end of his time at new boston
Then John is tortured and basically defeated, which then puts him back in a bystander role. Which then turns into him trying to play hero as a cripple but moreso blending in and not making a splash.
But Joker John and Early Wellstone Power John starts as antihero, trying to save Seraphina, enacting justice by beating up the girl who pushed Sera, trying to stop Sera's kidnapping
When Joker is revealed and Seraphina leaves John he falls all he way back to villainy until Sera breaks him out of his own mind again.
John then is basically trying to be an anti-hero, since he is mostly just trying to help Sera and not care about many other people, until he is on the trip with safe house. At that point when he fights alongside blyke and isen is when, in my opinion, he truly redeemed himself. He still has his issues and times of struggle but he is a hero at that point.
John is always a complicated character, even now hes still more aggressive, rude, and angry than your average hero in stories, but thats what makes him so unique. He isn't perfect, but no one is, he is a perfect depiction of giving a mentally unstable person powers in such a cruel world and showing us that even when hes at his lowest hes not irredeemable. I would never truly call him a villain as the only real villain is the authorities, the hierarchy, and the evil spectre, and John, for most of the story, is just a victim.
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u/beemielle 15h ago
I agree. I wasn’t certain at first, but especially with how insistent he is on rescuing the imprisoned members of the group, I’m pretty sure he’s a full hero by now.
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u/Nearby-Instance9987 17h ago
I can get by with this, I just don’t see his heroic side after he starts admitting how he wants justice for everything he and sera’s been through. Rather than thinking for others, he’s thinking for his and sera’s sake. John has been doing things of his own sake and Sera’s, so I don’t necessarily see him as a Hero other than to Sera. An example I can let slide is what you just explained when during the hill top battle because he does focus on the students and redeems himself.
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u/FallenInstant 15h ago
True, but im mostly thinking in regards to how characters like batman are still considered heroes even with their slight flaws personality wise
I only think he earns hero once he protects safe house on the mountain, since before that he truly only cared about helping Sera, but after that even when he says he doesnt care his actions speak louder, such as playing poker with the other safe house people and letting them win, teaching defense, and being part of the group that is trying to save blyke in the newest season
I do not think he is or will ever reach spiderman/superman status of morally good but John has reached a point where I see him as more hero than anti hero, since an anti hero requires a character to still go against a hero in some form but as the story currently stands John is completely on the side of the heroes 100%, even if his main goal is protecting and helping Sera that doesnt lessen him doing all the other stuff, it just makes his goals a bit less selfless and more selfish but thats ok
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u/Nearby-Instance9987 14h ago
Fair, but I like to think John is an anti-hero primarily because he thinks differently compared to Remi. Remi advices John to make the wiser decision, however he does consider it, he ultimately believes that taking revenge and justice for his father and mother is better.
Like you can see John changing, and conflicting between to siding with Remi or with himself since Sera isn’t there to convince him. Past tense John would’ve stormed in, current John was actually considering what decision to make. I’m pretty sure Zeke ripping the papers, and the students he was teaching showing no progress were what convinced him to finally take action rather than side with Remi’s decision because everything thats been done was pointless in the end, drowning his hopes.
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u/Consistent-Shop-3239 16h ago
John is a really good hero turned anti hero turned villain protagonist turned back anti hero turned hero again lol
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u/DarkShadowBlaze Team John 9h ago
Yes and no Joker arc was peaked, but the author did a 180 after sucked it just ended up with John carrying all the blame and guilt while many of the issues and problems surrounding the royals get brushed off and never addressed.
Another thing was that John ended up like he did due to how he kept getting discriminated against even after he stopped being a cripple and climbed the ranks. At some point it just started ignoring the fact society set John up for failure due to being a latebloomer.
Now Joker we know John's motivation was always Sera he tired to hold back, but things only got worse and then so he had to take action. John's goal as Joker was never about revenge, but about destroying the hierarchy responsible for Sera's suffering. But then in the King arc even though John is justified, the story just ignores that making it seem unreasonable when it makes perfect sense that he wouldn't feel safe about a club made and run by those who wronged him and could not trust. His side is never allowed to truly get out there and no one cares about it.
Instead of making John unreasonable it should have had him actually get his point across and for all the safe house/low tier students to hear why he became Joker. He should have pointed where the royals went wrong and let the other students get the whole picture to decide what to do instead of blindly following the hierarchy. Like seriously Arlo manipulated Sera to turn her on John even now she isn't aware of all the times he went to Arlo for help only for him to refuse and why he targeted the royals was cause Arlo refused to help when she was kidnapped. Remi despite being one of the better characters shouldn't have just brushed away what he friends did and demand John trust them, she shouldn't have ignored how he felt for being wronged by them at a bare minimal she should have taken his distress as well warranted and compromised by not including Arlo in the safe house and be open about it.
John was a good anti hero, but it the second season could have been done a lot better.
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u/Nearby-Instance9987 17h ago
Also if anyone is still reading these comments. I’m not necessarily going at anyone who’s against my opinion, I just want to hear your thoughts and on my thoughts (I don’t know if reddit allows post owners to edit their post but I’m leaving this here in this comment).
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u/Seraphinite98 14h ago
Honestly a hero isn't always a good person. They can do bad things but his situation kind of fueled it. The whole police torture didn't help him get over his issues just beat him down. Sera's realty check was a start for his own growth, just after being down that kind of path it takes a while to find the way.
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u/UnusualSession311 13h ago
He’s not a hero, but he’s not an anti hero either? In my opinion he acts like what a teenager w powers would act. I know for a fact if I had that strength and my father was executed for writing a book I’d raise hell too. Basically he’s just selfish as most teens are (including me) he has done selfless things but only because he was told to, like when the safe house was attacked his motive was sera telling him to do it. This is a hot take I’ve had for awhile, if sera had not told him to use his powers if anyone was in danger he wouldn’t have done it. He’s not good or bad or in the middle, he’s just a kid.
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u/BruhBorne-70 Jera's No.1 Glazer 13h ago edited 13h ago
if sera had not told him to use his powers if anyone was in danger he wouldn’t have done it
That's BS, Seraphina made him promise to defend himself and anyone else necessary using his ability if trouble does come. The promise nudged him forward but was not the source of him protecting the safehouse.
You can see John being truly appalled that Spectre a group that preached equality was attacking innocent high school students after isolating them, you can literally see him being angry at them for it.
Why would he be so emotional about it if he only did it because Seraphina told him to and by that same logic John wouldn't have protected himself using his ability against Spectre if he didn't make that promise to Seraphina, does that sound in any way believable to you.
Plus the promise wasn't even about Seraphina telling John to help the safehouse. She primarily wanted him to use his ability so that he is safe because he was under confident, the other thing was pretty much secondary.
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u/No_Drag_799 11h ago
Do you think John performed much heroism so far? Compared to Remi (classical hero) or Blyke.
Yeah he took a beating or few for someone else (like Terrence in first episodes)
He is villain who completely failed his first redemption arc and is set for another one.
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u/AlSanaPost 1h ago
John is a flawed character. Usually when I think of an Anti-Hero they either have a flawed goal, or a flawed personality. John was a villain in the first season, he was a prick personality-vise and he had bad goals. At this point, John is an anti-hero, he isn’t a prick but he is still fine with incapacitating people, and while his goal does align with the other cast members to an extent his favored outcome is to wreck the entire place.
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u/Xeomonk 9h ago
He's Vegeta. Begins as a villain who's pretty much just a violent psychopath, eventually turns into a guy on the right side who just takes it too far sometimes.
You can't deny he was a twisted, brutal arsehole during the Joker and Tyrant King arcs. As Joker he didn't just win fights, he savagely beat people up. Including people who never hurt him like Remi. As King he'd straight up just assault people for the barest minimum of a reason
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u/CorsairCrepe 20h ago
John is a straight up hero, it just took him a while to get there.