After yesterday's Bloodshot/transphobia fiasco, I'm thinking we may need some more rules around here. I'm open to suggestions.
Currently, the only rule is that posts and comments have to have something to do with Valiant.
My initial thought is to ban direct insults, but I also kind of appreciate when bigots are insulted, which I realize is a contradiction, so what's the community's perspective on this?
Seeing as this sub is tiny af, I would like to be the kind of sub that allows almost anything. I am also of the perspective that it doesn't do any good to silence bigots and hateful people outright. I believe it's more effective to allow hateful comments so the community can collectively call them out and downvote them into oblivion. This approach serves two purposes: 1) it shows that these people exist but don't represent the Valiant community, and 2) it demonstrates that we're an inclusive community, and it's not just one mod going around and deleting anything he disagrees with.
Yesterday's response to transphobia showed exactly how inclusive the (Reddit) Valiant fanbase is. I'm incredibly proud to be a part of a community that isn't afraid to stand against bigotry and hatred.
I think banning transphobes and racists is 100% the way to go. Moderation is always subjective, yes, but relying on The Will of the People is a great bridge for easy brigading and dog whistling.
I think the /r/dccomics team is the best of the major comic subs. They may be worth emulating
It's a inherent problem with reddit, especially with small subs. People will pop in and spout some hateful shit and pretend that they are the voice of the majority in this sub.
I saw several whining that the people who disliked the very clear dog whistle language in the issue don't read valiant comics, and how you shouldn't cater to them. Which is funny in a sad way as they themselves having never commented in or interacted with this sub even once before, nor any similar subs like /r/comicbooks or /r/graphicnovels. So who isn't buying valiant comics? Me or the dick head who only came in to shit on Trans people?
I'm not sure how exactly you can handle this, especially as this is a small sub, which probably doesn't even have 100 active members daily. But I feel if you see a person who has never commented in this sub ever start shouting about how others who have been part of the community are wrong and fake fans who don't support Valiant comics, I feel it's probably fine to kick them out as they are clearly not here in good faith.
Great point. I wish I would have thought of that yesterday.
To be fair though, there are only like a handful of people that regularly comment and post here. Should other Valiant fans be left out of the discussion just because they don't tend to comment regularly?
That's what I mean by the inherent problem with reddit, especially small subs.
This place only has a handful of posters at best. So it's hard to tell when they are genuinely a new poster who just decided to post rather than lurk (I believe reddit once published the ratio of lurkers to posters on reddit and it is crazy high, if I remember correctly), or just a dickhead who wants to spout off and shit on a group they don't like.
I think, and it's easy for me to say this as I don't need to implement this rule, as mods it might be a good idea to watch out for people making definitive "us vs them" statements about groups, when they have little history here or in similar subs. That is usually the tell-tale sign that they aren't here in good faith. It's basically the valiant equivalent of /r/AsABlackMan.
Again, it's not easy for you mods and hopefully, especially with Joshua Dysart and Deniz Camp both slamming Valiant/Alien for their lack of action as more of Mantella's twitter history is being exposed showing that this is certainly not a accident, I'm hoping Alien/Valiant will take a definitive stance against hatred and make sure this won't happen again and this sub will no longer be in the eye of the shitstorm.
Are the people you are censoring calling for violence or trying to influence children? If not let them say their piece right? What is this NAZI germany?
It's funny how similar progressives definition of "bigot=saying anything even a fact that is upsetting to a minority" is basically the same thing as a jewish person's definition of anti-semitism lol
I admittedly just joined this sub to see if Valiant was putting out anything worth checking out again. But I have never understood these fanboys who refer to their views as if they are some delegate of the people.
"My initial thought is to ban direct insults, but I also kind of appreciate when bigots are insulted, which I realize is a contradiction"
I love this. Personally, I'm fine with people getting called out on their shit and I'd it teeters on threatening or so, there should be a pathway to delete comments and if so many, then ban.
My first post in this subreddit was to discuss the transphobia in this issue and I was relieved and gratefull all people, even the one who disagreed, were very respectfull and open to discussion. So congrats valiant reddit community ❤️i've been a reader of valiant for a while and i'm glad you guys are as open minded as valiant once aspired to
i'll be honest, i really didn't think this community would be so accepting of LGBTQ+ folks. considering how long this fandom has run, i always saw it as very old-school. i am super glad that i've been proven wrong however. it's so nice to see everyone here being vocal abt the recent transphobic issue. watching people defend for those who can't defend themselves rlly warms my heart and i am also proud to be part of said community. so it's rlly disappointing that the company does not respect us in turn. either way, i also vouch that hate should not be tolerated in this subreddit. better to uproot the problem before it starts getting chaotic and all that.
68% of the country agrees with the author that children shouldnt be allowed to make life altering decisions regarding hormones...it isnt hateful to point out you cant get a tattoo or enlist in the military before 18 either
2) yes, the writer is sharing an opinion. But he’s placing the opinion atop a creature that is clearly a stand-in for a trans person, and they are being gunned down. So perhaps the suggestion that they are monsters that should be murdered is the hateful opinion in question.
Also, surely there have been opinions the majority of this country has held at some point in time you’ve stridently disagreed with. Have an opinion, sure, but It’s weak to suggest that the majority is always correct. Might there be a little nuance here? Feel free to copy paste a response.
I was on the receiving end of a lot of ire yesterday for my post, but a larger number of the responses were very positive and supportive at the same time. Even if tourists were here to just spread hatred, it still showed me that the core of the Valiant Reddit community is majority made up of good people.
I think you did a good job at deleting the particularly nasty messages, but I think a blanket ban on bigoted language would be a good move. I think it can be pretty easy to sniff out the bad-faith actors with how they carry themselves.
A blanketed ban on bigoted language also means blanket-banning bigoted language that doesn't support your position. That's the problem with these kinds of things.
Even "no transphobic language" is not good because what one person deems as not transphobic (example in calling a transmission in a car a tranny) is absolutely transphobic to someone else.
This is been the problem with censorship since the beginning of the universe. Until everyone can agree on what is hate / bigotry, you can't ban it outright. Elsewise you find yourself banning things that aren't hate or bigotry, just something you disagree with.
Dude, it's so obvious which side of the fence you fall on from your post history, your willful ignorance shtick is not gonna play here. Just say queer people disgust you and move on instead of putting up the constant fronts. Bigoted language is very clearly definable and isn't as wishy-washy as you think it is or want it to be, you just want a free card to say slurs and punch down. Have you ever heard of the paradox of tolerance?
1 - You have no clue what side of the fence I fall on. None at all. You are making assumptions because you are choosing not to understanding something that you don't want to understand. You are creating a straw man in your head because of .. what? what you have been told to believe? I dunno. You need to really think about it, though, because you are at this moment the wrong kind of person to be standing on some morality.
2 - Putting words in my mouth, too. "Just say queer people disgust you and move on...". Like my brother-in-law? Like one of the best friends I've ever had in my entire life? Like the numerous people my wife and I invited to stay with us when we were in foreign countries? Just say you hate people who see them as humans to be treated with the same dignity and respect as everyone else, rather than some special limited edition brand of cola that needs to be put in a special container to show off how much of an ally you are.
3 - Look up the definition of bigotry. I think the education system has massively failed you.
4 - What slurs have I said? Who am I punching? Come on, dude. The onus is on you to prove your crack theory. And by the way, where do you get yours? Share it with the group.
5 - Paradox of Intolerance used by the small-minded allows people to be hateful and abusive towards others just because they think differently than you. It's one of the most misunderstood philosophical thoughts of the current era because people just want to toss it around like a special permission slip to be a jackass.
Really funny of you to say I'm making a lot of assumptions about you, then turn around and paint me as some posturing faux-ally and not someone with a personal investment in this issue who deals with transphobic hate and legislation in my daily life and saw the talking points that are currently being used to restrict my healthcare and advocate violence against me in the comics I love and have supported for many years.
I don't give a shit what token minorities you feel okay with bringing up to win an argument, frankly. I think you using the word "tranny" here when, previously on this same subreddit, you used the censored N-word in "n---- rig" as an example of unacceptable bigoted language shows what boundaries you feel comfortable crossing, and which words you're okay with.
I never painted you as anything. If you read it that way, it's because you wanted to because you already made up your mind due to your ASSumptions.
I have lived in and among people in other countries who would literally murder you, laugh with me about it, then slit my throat for political gain. I think you don't understand just how bad it is out there and I have most likely lived in far more danger than you, in my own daily life. And it's truly sad that your IMMEDIATE decision was to create a straw man, misrepresent my comment, and act like a jackass because you feel like I'm not jumping up amd down screaming at every slight, perceived or real, to favor you. Maybe if you actually wanted to learn how to be more effective in your legislature, you would have an open heart and good faith conversation WITH PEOPLE YOU THINK ADVOCATE VIOLENCE AGAINST YOU before just ASSuming it.
When I grew up, a tranny was a transmission. N***** was NEVER anything but that.
Now, if you want to settle down and chat like a human? I would love that. You tell me about your experiences, I tell you about mine. Then I understand you, and you understand me.
I don't think you will, though. But I am basing that off numerous interactions I have had. I would be very happy to be wrong.
I really appreciate this post. It was so upsetting seeing transphobic comments pop up... this is a comic book subreddit that's hat we're here for...
I'm glad the poster highlighted the transphobic panel in Bloodshot and Aliens' response showed it was the right move to bring attention to it...
But then in the thread.... all the transphobic comments just made me sick... they were just waiting to start parroting hateful points... and that's not what this community is about :'(
I'm definitely one of those people that mostly lurks (probably have never posted/commented here actually) but imo if it's bigotry or hate speech it should not be allowed.
I understand the sentiment of wanting to show that the sub/community itself can "self-moderate" in a way but I can easily see the opportunity for hateful people to be bad actors and having the comments be seen even if downvoted allows for more avenues for those "opinions" to be spread (not to mention affecting those who are the comments' targets).
This idea to try to have everything allowed is frankly not realistic. For instance, what if the ideas of the community lean more towards allowing specific slurs or hate speech? Does it make that hate acceptable if it's not downvoted? Would that not show those who are the brunt of those comments that they are not worthy of being protected?
And this doesn't mean that these topics as they relate to Valiant can't be talked about (like what just happened with a Valiant book having barely disguised transphobia). But it's not hard to see when comments are just bigotry. I'd rather not see a bigoted comment vs hoping a bigoted comic gets downvoted or that the people in the sub aren't hateful. That just allows it to fester.
I appreciate your position behind allowing bigoted comments to be disputed, but ultimately that's not the function of this subreddit. We're here to talk Valiant, no make debate (especially since debate of this nature is never in good faith). I am more of a lurker, so I know I am not really going to carry a ton of weight here. But there were sooooooo many people in this subreddit yesterday that clearly have never come here before. They smelled blood and wanted a piece of action.
I believe a balanced position is to have a rule prohibiting bigoted language and advocacy, and when it pops up, the community can report it, you pop in to lock that particular comment chain and leave a comment along the lines of "we don't do that around here." You can leave it up, I think there's value in leaving those sorts of signs about what the values of this subreddit are.
Thanks for taking it head-on Ferg! Appreciate you tackling the Moderation of all that shit yesterday, and I can't speak for the other Mods but you've got my full backing when it comes to adding more specific language to the rules to take steps towards a safer more inclusive community 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
I think firing him, making a bold statement where they acknowledge their missteps on the first one and then scrapping the BS series would go a long way towards gaining them some good will.
But honestly, based on their first statement I expect them to announce that they've hired Chuck Dixon and Ethan Van Sciver by the end of next week.
I'm of the mind that these sorts of bigots and their hateful comments should be banned. Dunking on them and shouting them down can be fun, but it also makes the space more combative and hostile in simply allowing that, and drags away from good discussion about the books we all love (give me that physical Resurgence Omni darn it!)
It also can be emotionally draining and triggering for any marginalized folks to have to wade through those hateful comments, even if they are being shouted down, and even if they aren't that numerous, to engage with this community. Silencing is also the most effective tool when it comes to hate. The folks that peddle it thrive on the attention, and want to take up your mind share. I say we don't let em, delete their comments and just ban them
I think mods should reserve the right to kick and can kick on discretion. If someone is being asinine and get trounced on, great. If they are getting out of hand and disrupting threads then 🥾. Bottom line is it should be a pleasurable experience here for everybody except for bigots/racists/trolls who cant/wont shut up
I didnt see anything in thebposted dialogue from the comic that mentioned transportation.
I think the rule should be: if it doesn't say it in black and white quit b...ing about it. Everyone could turn anything into something if you work hard enough.
the issues is people relate "hate" speech to any option that is not popular. so there will never be a polite discussion. i had a friend banned from r/comicbooks for just saying that allan scott: the green lantern didn't sell. but was label as hate speech cause people kept reporting the comment as homophobic. the irony there is my friend is gay. if any it should be that the topic is open for discussion but as soon as it turns to personal insults/attacks. then it no longer a discussion. this is never supposed to be an echo chamber. we should talk about things and idea not to sway someone to a side but just to put them out there and allow other to create their own ideas.
How about allow any and all speech, instead of silencing things u disagree with. Like we get it, reddit is a left wing echo chamber, but maybe that's the problem. No room for differing views. Just cuz something offends people doesn't make it wrong. Trans people don't exist, they have gender dysphoria. The fact that alien books bowed down before these people will bite them in the ass. These are cold hard facts. Or ban me, IDC really.
Trans people have gender dysphoria and also exist. I guess you're the perfect example of people that should be banned here.
EDIT: Yes, I know this comment should be deleted. I'm leaving up for transparency, seeing as this thread is specifically about people like this, which I have banned.
Banning people you disagree with just creates another Reddit echo chamber. Ridiculous notion. You're a mod working for free not a totalitarian. Ban trolls who are stirring the pot just for the sake of being obnoxious, but banning someone outright for having a different viewpoint is horse shit.
I think this whole thing is snowballing. Keep an eye on things and if the sub gets rowdy then maybe we revisit these questions,but im.unsure how many readers would have had rhe same reaction the Op who posted the vampire thing in the first place had. Idk maybe I have a different POV.
I can definitely see it feeling offensive to transpeople because that's precisely what some of the argument is over whether or not a minor should be allowed .. uh .. to begin the process? I don't know the language, but I do know the argument.
And that panel, while 100% reasonable text because there are parents who have done bad things to their children for the sake of their own internet fame, can be read differently.
Very similar to the "Black Lives Matter" and the racists saying "All Lives Matter" and average person who really does just believe in the equality of life getting fired for saying "All Lives Matter". But in this case, judging by some of his past shares, it's far more likely he was on the side of the former.
You specifically brought up the topic, and this is a person's opinion.
I've been here in this sub for some number of years. I don't frequently comment because I don't frequently buy new books and there isn't a whole lot of news that is of interest. I've interacted specifically with you several times in the past.
But simply saying "trans people don't exist" isn't bigotry. It's a false statement, yes. It's a lie. But it's not bigotry. And to immediately decide that someone should be banned for making a statement that does not seek violence or abuse is a little heavy-handed and exactly what people are dealing with in their day to day lives due to an orange humanoid doing exactly the same thing with immigrants and often, citizens.
Please be careful how you move forward with this. If you want to bring up a topic, please don't just claim it's good to ban people who disagree with it.
"obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group."
Trans people exist. You admit it yourself. Believing otherwise is obviously bigotry.
No, that is not what bigotry means. If that was bigotry, then everyone who says God doesn't exist is a bigot against people who believe otherwise.
And look at those words. "Obstinate or unreasonable." You have zero claim to know whether that specific commenter was being obstinate or his attachment was unreasonable. You just said, "oh, he believes this thing therefore he is a bigot". That's... that's bigotry.
And here is where definitions seem to get you. Nobody is erasing anybody. Not only that, but the person saying "trans people don't exist" doesn't literally mean they don't exist, which is another problem, but not the bigger problem. The bigger problem is people reading that, and instantly creating a false narrative about everybody who may or may not say something along those lines.
It's a communication issue, first and foremost. And when someone chooses not to make an effort in understanding what the other person is saying, it's them that shuts down that conversation.
But modern humans really aren't interested in communication. The internet and social media has promoted the idea of point and scream so much that there's very little room for communication or understanding.
Most people who supposedly say trans people shouldn't exist, or should be dead, or whatever? Most of them aren't saying that. Don't get me wrong, a lot of them are, but most aren't. That's a misrepresentation of words that others are forcing onto them, before ignoring/blocking/banning them.
Saying "trans people do not exist" is the very definition of erasure. If someone says that and means something else, it is not up to others to make shit up to excuse their poor communication skills.
I have been called a bigot for sharing my lived experience as an American in various parts of the world, the way I was treated there.
Anyway, this isn't going to get anybody anywhere.
You specifically asked, saying please, for people to sound off in the comments. You banned someone for saying something you didn't like. That's too Trumpian, in my opinion, especially since there were no rules for said banning prior to the banning.
Had there been a rule, then there's a rule, and you ban. Cool. Agree or disagree doesn't matter because there's a rule, and you're a mod. But there was no rule, and you specifically asked for people to comment.
Yea, that's fair enough. The entire point of this post was to decide on the rules, and I acted unilaterally.
Imo it's defensible because it was blatant bigotry, but of course you're allowed to disagree with that. I'm going to give this post a day or two, and then decide.
Your input is appreciated, but I can't get behind the idea that saying a group of people don't exist isn't bigotry.
I mean, I even disagree with you and I can't see anything in there at all that's rage baiting. Or even the two words individually, raging or baiting. Seems a very reasonable response to me?
He has some decent thoughts, elsewhere, but eh I guess some people have to balance nonsense with sense. I mean, realistically, so do I. lol
You're right in that it was used in a condescending manner, but I was not rage baiting.
I just find your comment about not banning people over disagreements to be rather fucking stupid. It's not a simple fucking disagreement if someone is bigoted towards a group of people (trans people in this case). That's fucking hate speech and that shit should be banned fucking everywhere.
"My initial thought is to ban direct insults, but I also kind of appreciate when bigots are insulted, which I realize is a contradiction"
This. Once direct insults come into play just ban everyone involved. I feel that you can disagree with someone but once it gets into insult territory it should be bannable both ways.
I also feel that repeat topics on the same subject should be kept to a minimum. Once a thread is made on the subject repeat threats are generally low effort/ rage bait or karma farming.
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u/the_light_of_dawn 20d ago
No bigotry or hate speech. Be respectful and kind. Remember the human behind the keyboard.