r/whowouldwin • u/Verlux ​ • Apr 23 '25

Event The Great Debate Season 16 Round 2!!!

Rules

Out of Tier Rules

  • For Out of Tier requests, simply ping myself and/or Chainsaw__Monkey and state your case for why you believe someone's combatant is out of tier, then proceed with the debate as per normal. We will evaluate that request individual of the debate itself and make our decision in judgments. Reminder: the Head Judges maintain the right to DM any user we believe to be skirting OoT lines and make our own OoT accusation, with said user having 48 hours to defend themselves.

Battle Rules

  • Speed will not be equalized for this tier.

  • All combatants are aware of the basics of their allies' combat abilities but are in the blind on their opponents (unless they have canon knowledge of said person via sharing a fictional universe)

  • Battleground:

[*"The Parthenon is a former temple on the Athenian Acropolis, Greece, that was dedicated to the goddess Athena. The Parthenon is 45 feet tall, with an interior chamber that is 98' x 63' and a total area of 240' x 112'. For our purposes, the Parthenon has been fully restored, meaning the interior chamber is enclosed and contains a statue of Athena.

The arena of Great Debate Season 16 AKA Wonder Woman is the fully restored Parthenon.

Of note:

  • For our purposes, the total arena is Athenian Acropolis, which is 7.5 acres. This area cannot be left by participants. The area extends into the sky ~400 meters
  • Participants start inside the Parthenon interior chamber, on opposite sides.
  • The chamber walls are normal stone walls, and thus extremely destructible to participants; however, the columns of the Parthenon have the middle 80% made of untamperable WhoWouldWinium, making them detachable from the building but still usable as a weapon by the sufficiently strong.
  • The statue of Athena is behind the "team 1" side start. Destruction of this statue will make Wonder Woman very angry and substantially reduce her restraint.
  • Recreation of the Parthenon interior for reference
  • Recreation of the Parthenon front exterior

Opponents will start 90ft across from each other, in the central chamber of The Parthenon. Teammates are spaced 10ft apart from one another.

*All numbers are rough approximations and may not stand up to pixel calcing.

Submission Rules

  • Tier: Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against Wonder Woman in the conditions outlined above. All entrants will be bloodlusted against Wonder Woman, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary. The bloodlust does not give any foreknowledge of Wonder Woman or his capabilities.

Debate Rules

  • Rounds will last approximately 5 and a half day days, hopefully from Monday until Saturday at noon of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

  • Format for each round: the one to go first gets an Intro + 1st Response, their opponent replies in kind, then both get a 2nd response, then a 3rd response in a back-and-forth style, and a closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. FOR THIS SECOND ROUND, EACH DEBATER'S RESPONSES MUST CONSIST OF NO MORE THAN ONE FULL 10K CHARACTER-LONG REDDIT COMMENT FOR THE FIRST RESPONSE, FOLLOWED BY 15K CHARACTERS FOR THE NEXT TWO RESPONSES!!!! You are allowed an intro post as stated above, which can include basic feats, of up to 5000 characters, but no arguments or comparisons may be made in comparison to the opponent.

  • Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa.

Brackets Here

First round was 1v1 individual matches, so the second round shall be:

3v3 Team Melee

Round 2 Ends Tuesday April 29th, 12:00 CST

Special Note: Don't forget that combatants are spaced apart based on the reach of their striking capabilities. If you have a 10 foot long spear pointed at the Tier Setter, you start with the tip of the spear 10 meters away from him; if you are riding a giant monster, you start with the end of the monster's arms/shoulders/head at the 10 meter away point, etc etc.

Links to:

Tier Setter Page

Sign Ups

Round 1

11 Upvotes

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1

u/rsthethird Apr 23 '25

Reply 1

Counter Arguments

  • Mordred can catch supersonic arrows by grabbing their shafts from the side. This requires closing her hand in less time it takes to cross the arrows length, which is single digit ms (.8 / 343 = 2.3 ms). Chiron scales to Achilles who does similar. Jack as reacts to arrows too. They all have tier relevant reactions.
  • Mordred can smack away several hundred ton staffs and tilt pyramids with a blow. Chiron can blow apart jumbo jets with charged arrows. These are blunt forces enough to harm the enemy team.
  • A 20mm can pierce through 2.5 feet of stone, with Deadshots bullets doing similar. All the golems my team cut are easily 5-7 feet thick (1 2 3). Additionally rather than making a bullet sized pierce (and then exploding outwards), Mordred / Jack cutting multiple feet width wise too. Which is intuitively better. They cut through Myth and Marvels like butter.
  • Chiron is only cut rather than being crushed by Mordreds blows, Mordred tanks hits from someone she extensively clashes with. These are relevant degrees of blunt force durability. And piercing.
  • Carol got hurt by a shock worth a few thousand megawatts.
    • This is worse than shattering stone, since a real life multi gigawatt beam only punches holes through TV's.
    • She would die to a stone busting attack.
  • Opponents can attack while bound in the lasso with aoe's, which Mordred has.
  • Mordreds has a helmet??? what

Team Work

Jacks mist (refer to intro post) can be controlled to not interfere with her allies and both Chiron and Mordred can fight without vision. All 3 will have a "visibility advantage" while their opponents speed is demerited. Chiron can scan the internal workings of an opponent to understand their strengths + weaknesses, and Mordred can intuitively feel that certain things are dangerous or not. Compounding this is Chirons telepathy, allowing for soundless communication.

This allows my team to effectively dictate the terms of engagement, e.g. choosing their ideal opponents, or ganging up on individual members of Myths and Marvels.

On my opponents...

WW -

has a bad habit of talking extensively mid combat, and her morality presents a pressing weakness.

  • Talks against an unknown opponent in a 55 minute long fight, which lead to her
    • Landing 2 blows over the course of 23 seconds.
    • Letting an opponent recover and blindside her with a hit.
    • Taking the entire match to use her lasso.
  • Her lasso scenes look like this, the character talking and not moving to dodge or counter attack while she binds them up.
    • The Rt even delineates this particular instance as against a peer opponent, meaning speed wasn't the issue here.
  • Would flinch at killing unknown children.

By comparison:

  • Chiron will silently sneak attack even one of his own students.
  • Mordred will rush opponents and only exchange words while clashing blows instead of stopping to do so.
  • Jack as I've stipulated her will silently stab at opponents from behind once they've been engulfed by the fog.
    • Jack will abuse any hesitation relating to her appearance as a child.

This all means my team will simply attack WW while she stops to talk mid conversation, or hesitates in attacking Jack for moral reasons. Even if she manages to gain an advantage, she may very well stop and talk again to allow them to recoup. And they won't just stand around and politely let the lasso bind them.

Carol -

is slow where it matters.

  • Her speed is explicitly about her flight according to the handbook, not her reactions.
    • This isn't a failure of the book mentioning only one kind of speed either, characters like Captain Britain have both high flight and reactions.
  • A car moving 70 mph is too fast for her to properly coordinate and grab.
  • Rogue scaling feats involving bullets has her literally get taken down by gunfire a page later lmao.
    • Her initial reaction can be pinned down to beginning to move while Katherine draws her gun and leaning up. She doesn't appear in the firing panel, but given her proximity she should even if she was standing still while the bullets were moving so it's just an artist error.
  • Rogue gets hit by a autocannon, and then hit again even from a distance. This is slow.
  • I also think its notable Carols only non scaling "fast" reaction feats on her RT are vague bullet related ones that could simply be aim dodging and blocking respectively.

Or generally speaking Carol is described and shown as slow, and her scaling to Rogue also involves some slow feats. Her only bullet interactions can easily be aim dodging. The Salvo interactions are probably outliers.

By comparison my team are all supersonic in movement and attacks with single digit ms reaction times (refer to intro post and above).

Ryu-

is pretty much as presented on the sign up page. Being beaten down by the tiersetters blows which collapse buildings when striking the side or ripping large holes through their tops (which fails to collapse them).

Him auto loosing solely to grappling is fake as fuck though since he can emit aura explosions even when not moving his limbs that make 12 meter wide craters or explode through buildings which are things comparable to what damage the tiersetter. Hell, he can even fly at supersonic speeds using aura explosions.

So if Ame tries to argue some shittery that he's unable to loose to TierWomans blows despite saying otherwise (theoretically plausible, but I buy him being hurt tbh) and he solely looses to being grappled for 10 seconds I will drop an oot post haste since he can still do relevant attacks while tied up. And he's way too fast for the all out blows to ever land.

Back on topic, Chirons jumbo jet exploding arrows and Mordred smacking away hundreds of tons means both of them can hurt him. Even Jack is somewhat relevant since her poison fog will force him to constantly use his aura to stave it off draining his focus while dueling either Chiron, Mordred, or both. She won't engage due to being warned telepathically by Chiron, or her invisibility / his hesitation in killing a child allowing a clean escape.

Pre-emptive counter arguments

  • Even if my team can't cut, Jacks curse imbued in her knives causes womens organs to resect. So she still kills 2/3rds of myth and marvels with blade contact.
  • WW is vulnerable to magic.

The actual fight

Jack's a serial killer who goes after women, so she dashes off to meet Carol or WW and pretty trivially kills both due to character and speed reasons. Even if she were the only member of my team, her stealth + morality check + curse lets her kill Carol and WW alone. Chiron and Mordred will analyze their opponents and focus Ryu, since he's the actual threat, and overwhelm him. Chiron in particular won't ever enter visual range against Ryu, being an archer in a dense fog.

Even in the worst case scenario where Jack somehow dies quickly, WW isn't dumb, and Carol is actually fast... Chiron can provide explosive cover fire for Mordred to get off Clarent. Clarent is an electric trump card attack which makes football field sized stone shattering explosions when clashing with an equal.

  • WW being hurt by a bolt shatters a minor amount of stone.
  • Ryu catching a far less extensively stone shattering bolt.

They all die if hit by clarent. Ryu is guaranteed to get hit since he blocks. Carol is defined as trying to take energy attacks in her RT, meaning she's also hit. WW can't win a 3v1, even if she dodges.

1

u/Ame-no-nobuko Apr 25 '25

Response 2 Part 1

A1 - Fateless

Servants, like RS' team, can only manifest via the Holy Grail and a supply of mana.

Only Chiron has this skill. Even if the rest manifest in the arena, they will be operating off of a very finite mana supply with each attack bringing them dangerously close to death. High energy attacks like Noble Phantasms would be impossible to do.

A2 - IC Stuff

To clear up how WW and tournaments work:

WW may not be willing to like gore a child in cold blood, but she's willing to cut up threatening foes, and per GDT rules she knows Jack is a threat

  • She'd at least punch him, which with Jack's dura is a KO

Narratively the lasso is mostly used to undo mind control, so it tends to be coupled with talking. That doesn't change that she use it a lot in combat and its very effective

Regarding Ryu dodging, the two examples used were from him years before my iteration and when he was in a mindless/delusional state

A3 - Stat Chat

A3.1 - Offense

RS didn't do much to dissuade my R1 assertions that my team can one shot:

  1. Chiron and especially Jack have no real blunt force dura, a punch/photonic blast KOs them. Even Mordred has sub tier dura. Sword fighting with someone does not at all indicate any form of strength or dura scaling, plus she was boosted in this fight

               - As an aside, this fight is also when she did the "football" sized feat RS' mentions

  1. No one on RS' team has viable grappling resistance. WW far outclasses them and can easily restrain them with her lasso or grappling. If grappled it would be trivial to choke them out or stab them

  2. Jack + Chiron die to a single stab from WW. RS tries to shore up Charon's dura, but when you look carefully the sword not only does cut him, but only stops because he grabs it and then uses wrestling to push Mordred off. Theres no evidence the sword stopped because his dura.

               - Mordred's durability may be similarly overhyped, or at least inconsistent as Chiron's arrows have pierced her armor

RS team needs to avoid all of these eventualities to not lose this match. If Chiron/Jack get punched once or stabbed by WW they are out. Mordred instantly loses to being grappled and goes down if my team lands a handful of solid punches on her.

A3.1 - Defense

While RS focused more of their response on this section, my original claims still hold true:

Blunt Force

The blunt force feats provided for the opposing team are pretty universally bad:

  • Chiron: As mentioned last response his striking is garbage. The charged shot with his bow isn't much better.

    • A heavily telegraphed shot that takes 2 seconds to hit its target is not going to hit anyone on my team
    • I could write an entire post using my aerospace engineering knowledge about how destroying an airplane isn't even close to this tier, how thin the skin is, how its not designed to take load like this, but that would be a waste of time when the feat is visually bad. Breaking off a wing and a part of the fuselage of a hollow airplane is not at all equal to building busting.

  • Mordred: Better, but not enough to really make a difference

    • The feats provided for her are just too inherently vague to compare to my team's dura. Shaking a floating pyramid has no real clear tie to material damage (is she just destabilizing its balancing/flying mechanism). Ditto redirecting a large staff is vague and the actual collateral the staff creates isn't great
Piercing

Their main attack vector, but even here they fall short:

  • Chiron: RS argues him as shooting through a 4-5' thick golem, however in their primary canon (per stips) it seems to require a charged/multiple arrows to achieve as well as an ally damaging the golem leg prior. His rapid fire arrows actually fail to do more than embed themselves in the golem.

  • Mordred: As has been the pattern Mordred has the only half decent showing of the bunch, but even then she'll struggle to deal significant damage to my team.

    • A lot of her piercing attacks utilize her electricity amp, which Carol can absorb to remove/make herself go Binary
    • WW can block with her bracers, and easily disarm her

  • Jack: Its pretty clear that in terms of pure piercing Jack isn't a threat. RS references their anti-women noble phantasm (which they might not even be able to use), but that won't be as effective as they argue:

    • WW: Jeanne resists it due to having a high resistant to curses and being holy. WW is literally half god, is carrying multiple blessed weapons (her sword, bracers and lasso most notable) and has a strong resistance to magic (i.e. a spell that aged Batman/Superman to near death only ages her a few decades). Her bracelets also can reflect back magical attacks, so she has a viable means to block this attack
Lightning

Electricity hurts people by shocking them, with lightning being about 1-2 gigawatts, not KE. The feats I have provided for my team indicate they can all withstand lightning strikes without significant issue. Nothing in Mordred's feats indicate that her electricity has significantly more power than a lightning bolt

  • Wattage of a lightning bolt =/= wattage of a plasma beam, they are two different things

If RS wants to argue the KE of the attacks they can, but those aren't game changing either. While large, they only really tear through the surface layer off the pyramid, have a large AoE (so my team would only take a small fraction of the damage) and if used risks Carol become planetary.

Poison

Its pretty clear that Jack's poison can't really do anything to my team, but even beyond that the mist is next to useless.

A3.1 - Speed

All of my team can operate in the low single digit MS range:

1

u/Ame-no-nobuko Apr 25 '25

Response 2 Part 2

RS calcs his team to be 2.3 ms, but a review of the feats shows this isn’t true:

A4 - Random Stuff

  • Ryu In Tier: Not really going to engage with this outside of an oot, but to clarify my argument isn’t that Ryu can tank TSer WW’s attacks, it’s that he can tank RS’ teams attacks because they’re weak

  • Mordred’s Energy Blasts: Her main big attack RS links is her noble phantasm, which is heavily telegraphed and requires her to yell its name. The idea that my team (all of whom can fly/jump at Mach+ speeds) can’t avoid it is absurd. If anything it lets Carol more easily absorb it if Mordred targets an ally.

Conclusion/Course of the Fight

The core dynamics of this fight haven’t changed since my first response. Any single member of my team vs the entirety of RS’ would be a good fight, but in a 3v3 it’s a slaughter.

  • Chiron is slow, his arrows likely won’t hurt anyone on my team (especially Ryu) and he dies to a single solid blow.

  • Morded has maybe the only viable offense and semblance of defense of her team, but she’s slow, has no effective attacks vs Ryu and is vulnerable to being disarmed or grappled.

  • Jack’s viability in this tourney is based on gimmicks, which really don’t work here. She has no means to hurt Ryu, and her invisibility fails against Marvel and WW. Both WW and Marvel can easily one shot her, with both having longer reach, AoE and in WW’s case better speed.

With a 90 ft initial gap, the first to encounter my team would be Mordred with her supersonic travel. Even if they all meet in the middle, this would be disastrous for RS's team.

  • Jack has no objective movement speed feats, even at 2x the world record it would take her nearly 1 s to reach her ally

  • Chiron's arrows would take ~40 ms to travel to my team, plenty of time to dodge/block

With basically everyone in my team capable of reacting and throwing an attack in less than 10 ms, this means Modred would be fighting a 3v1 for a (relative) long time before she has any help. It also gives WW a ton of time to undo the mist before contact with Jack is made and Carol a ton of time to blast all of them.

2

u/rsthethird Apr 25 '25

Reply 2 - Part A

Refutes

  • Servants can exist with their own magical energy reserves and die when its depleted. The existence of a Master is to counteract their own consumption, since their own energy regeneration doesn't outpace said consumption. Here's Artoria laying this all out in depth. They won't disappear even with outside helping factors until all their energy is used. But they do have outside factors that make it easier:
    • Chiron as mentioned has independent action, so his drainage is mitigated.
    • Mordred disappearing was after she expended tons of energy in a big fight, and took severe damage from multiple poisonings. She was able to do this thanks to her energy generating dragon core. Unless she gets beaten to an inch of her life, fights for minutes on end, and uses clarent twice this won't happen to her.
    • Jacks master for the entire war was a non mage who couldn't supply her with energy. She engaged in multiple fights fine, since she's "low cost" and "efficient".
  • WW doesn't use lasso to purge knockout gas. Its clear her removing Ares gas had more so to do with that specific gas's mind altering properties rather than something it just does inherently to all poisons.
  • The feat of WW "using the lasso competently" is exactly like the incompetent feat I used lmao. Grail stands still as WW talks and spins her lasso around, effectively letting it hit her. My team will not do this. She's still dumb when it comes to the lasso.
  • He mentions Jack not having any cutting when I talk about her cutting as her primary win condition, and never even attempts to attack her feat. Instead talking about WW countering the curse, which was meant to be a cherry on top.
  • Chiron shooting down a supersonic arrow with his own was about the speed of the arrow, not his reactions. I delineated these as separate things. His actual physical speeds comes from boxing the absolute fuck out of Achilles, more on him later.
  • Mordred and Achilles catching arrows were explained, where I talked about what it means to catch an arrow (reacting to it as it crosses its own length). Ame completely ignores this to talk about their feats as if they deflected it instead. Catching =/= deflecting.
    • Achilles failing to catch later arrows is because Chiron can predict his movement and fire volleys.
    • Again, length of arrow / speed of sound gives very low ms reactions.

My Speed

I alluded to my team having supersonic movement and attack, and Ame primarily argued against reactions, but since judges aren't reading intro posts I'll go over it all.

Chiron

Mordred

Jack

All can fight at supersonic speeds and react in ms timeframes. Chiron can fire supersonic, and his prediction / volleys are relevant vs such opponents.

Enemy team speed

Carol

  • Ame tries to dismiss Rogue getting hit as it being fine as long as she can tank it, but Rogue clearly is not enjoying being hit (flinching, being sent flying, saying ow, etc). She would dodge if she could.
  • Rogue getting caught off guard is fake, she had an entire paragraph of dialogue after popping out and got hit straight on.
  • Why are handbooks unreliable? This needs to be discussed, not asserted.
  • Also the 70mph car feat was ignored lol.

WW

  • This feat being interpreted as reacting to sniper fire in a few feet in the tiersetter is fine, but the comic itself has additional context that increases the distance since its clear she moves back near the couch further away from the sink. I suspect this is more so 3 ms than 1.5.

The argument that tanking things renders Carols speed contradictions null is wrong, Rogue wasn't caught off guard, a very relevant piece of evidence was dismissed for no reason, and another one ignored. Barring 2 outliers that are contradicted elsewhere, Carol is consistently humanish in reaction speed. WW reactions aren't quite as good as Ame presents.