r/whowouldwin • u/ExpressCeiling98332 • 1d ago
Battle Thragg sees the Empire as an obstacle to Viltrumite rule, so he decides to destroy it's biggest threat, the Death Star. Can the Empire stop him?
The Death Star sees Thragg charging at it.
How can they possibly win?
Round 1: They are taken by surprise.
Round 2: They have 10 minutes to prepare.
Round 3: They have 30 minutes to prepare.
Round 4: They have 1 day to prepare.
Preferably canon Empire.
Don't say "X stomps", explain why.
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u/why_no_usernames_ 1d ago
No. He just flies straight through it and it blows up. No one on board not even Vader and Palps have the power to stop him. He could easily be going faster than a ship in hyperspace.
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u/ExpressCeiling98332 1d ago
Okay.
The question is, could they stop him if they know he's coming in advance?
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u/why_no_usernames_ 1d ago
No. They would have no weapon that could target him at his speeds and nothing short of the death stars main laser is going to be effective agaisnt him. Their only shot is if they know in advance to the nanosecond when he is arriving, at what angle and at what speed. Then they could prime the death star to fire at the spot he is going to be at the perfect moment. But short of that there is nothing they can do.
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u/BlockAffectionate413 1d ago edited 1d ago
It really depends on versions. Disney canon ones? Yeah I dont think they have feats for that yet. But Legends Sidious would wreck Thragg lol. Between his force storms, his telepathy that could casually TP billions of people( while Thragg has zero TP resistance), force drain, and such hax, there is nothing Thragg can really do. Hell Sidious mere presence radiated such TP power that post-ROTJ Luke was paralyzed just by being near him. And that Luke was lot more resistant to TP than Thragg.
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u/why_no_usernames_ 1d ago
Even in Legends Sidious has no feats hitting something the size of a person, moving faster than a ship in hyperspace hitting with the force of a slightly smaller death star. Like if Thragg just stopped in front of Sidious and started talking and if you wank the shit out of Legends Sidious then sure, maybe Thagg loses. But if his plan is too destroy the death star he is flying straight through it
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u/BlockAffectionate413 1d ago edited 1d ago
There are a few issues with this though. First, shields, the Death Star has shields. I really doubt Thragg can just fly through it if shields are up, seeing as these shields that are made to endure fire from capital ships that have shown consistently country/continent-busting and above feats, while Thragg has not. One planet feat people bring up involved a super laser, without which we learned that they would die. Every other feat in IC is well below planetary stuff I hear argued sometimes. Not only that, but they were then all knocked out for time by the mere shockwave of the planet exploding tens of thousands of km away, meaning due to the inverse square law, they would only be hit by the tiniest fraction of energy at that distance, and yet it still knocked them all out for time. So Thragg is not some planetary character like Superman. So given that, I really doubt he can just go through the shields of the Death Star when they are up. Shields should be able to buy some time.
Second problem, I am not sure what you mean by " if you wank the shit out of Legends Sidious". Why do we need to wank his hax when Thragg has literally, not figuratively, literally zero resistance against any of such hax like TP? He is just a brick who never showed any hax resistance.
And third OP says "The Death Star sees Thragg charging at it.", meaning he is clearly not moving at MFTL speed here or whatever, and Legends Sidious would have time to use his hax.
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u/why_no_usernames_ 1d ago
There are a few issues with this though. First, shields, the Death Star has shields. I really doubt Thragg can just fly through it if shields are up, seeing as these shields can endure fire from capital ships that have shown consistently country/continent-busting and above feats,
The shields are built to defend agaisnt things like canon fire. Agaisnt physical objects they dont work as well which is why fighters can bypass them. The thought process is that the main worry is fast moving energy weapons and any physical objects would be moving show enough to target and shoot down.
But even if we ignore that and pretend like the shield would affect him he should still be able to punch through. Going by the feat of 3 viltrumites and a laser punching through a planet hundreds of times larger than the death star and assuming Thragg by himself is equal to 25% of that (although he should be worth more) he has more than enough power to punch clean through.
One planet feat people bring up involved a super laser, which did nearly all of the work, without which we learned that they would die.
No it didnt, Look up the panel, see the amount of damage the laser is doing, then watch how how much the Viltrumites are doing, The laser is a tiny unstoppable beam, they use it to destabilize the core, like a diver using a rock to break the surface tension of the water, The Viltrumites did most of the damage and the panels reflects that.
Not only that, but they were then all knocked out for time by the mere shockwave of the planet exploding tens of thousands of km away
I dont remember this, could you remind me of the chapter?
Thragg has literally, not figuratively, literally zero resistance against any of such hax like TP? He is just brick who never showed any hax resistance.
He is a brick born of hax. They get their powers from smart atoms that adapt and have shown resistance to high level reality warping. Unleashed Eve as a child could rebuild peoples brains on the fly, transmute any material. But unleashed Eve as an adult with her full power couldnt do more than Skin a weaker Viltrumite than Thragg.
"The Death Star sees Thragg charging at it.", meaning he is clearly not moving at MFTL speed here or whatever, and Legends Sidious would have time to use his hax.
It could be hyperbolic. Thats followed up by OP giving time lines, one of which is a day. Do you think in that situation Thragg is limping his way forward for a day after being spotted when he could travel the width of the galaxy in that time?
But to make sure, u/ExpressCeiling98332 by see did you mean they literally see him coming physically or did you just mean they know he is coming
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u/ExpressCeiling98332 21h ago
I imagine them as seeing him coming in a minute, in Round 1.
The other rounds increase the time.
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u/BlockAffectionate413 23h ago edited 23h ago
The shields are built to defend agaisnt things like canon fire. Agaisnt physical objects they dont work as well which is why fighters can bypass them.
Canon fire has a lot of kinetic energy; it was shown to be nuclear in nature, it is not magically weaker against physical objects. Figthers cannot bypass them either, that is why there was mission led by Han Solo's team with the help of the Ewoks had to disable the shield generator first, to allow Lando to fly into the station and fire on its reactor. Without that, they could not bypass them. Now first one had small gaps in the shields that ships, if they knew where they are, could bypass, but the second one did not have any gaps at all for Thragg to just bypass shields. And he has no knowledge of the shield generator to take it out first.
Going by the feat of 3 viltrumites and a laser punching through a planet hundreds of times larger than the death star and assuming Thragg by himself is equal to 25% of that (although he should be worth more) he has more than enough power to punch clean through.
.Problem with this is that laser that was far more powerful then them, that is why it was said without it they would all die, and would not punch through the planet at all. So by themselves, they cannot punch through planet, that was whole point of why they had to get a laser. Even tiniest fraction ofan explosion of planet tens of thousands of km away knocked them all out, so you cannot really use that to argue Thragg is planetary and such given context. And capital ships like ISD have easily shown firepower on the level of punching through to the core and above as well. Or indeed, even destroying whole countries/continenets. And shields of death star can endure that. So It should logically at least slow Thragg down and allow Legends Sidious to use his hax.
No it didnt, Look up the panel, see the amount of damage the laser is doing, then watch how how much the Viltrumites are doing
.I did, and I am not sure how you can tell what they are doing apart from it? I mean hell it was thought, correct me if I am wrong, but at least per show, that laser by itself destroyed whole stars. So I am not sure why we should assume they did some major damage apart from it when laser was clearly much stronger than them
I dont remember this, could you remind me of the chapter?
.of course, here after planet far away exploded and shockwave hit them, well small part of it.
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u/why_no_usernames_ 22h ago
Canon fire has a lot of kinetic energy; it was shown to be nuclear in nature, it is not magically weaker against physical objects. Figthers cannot bypass them either, that is why there was mission led by Han Solo's team with the help of the Ewoks had to disable the shield generator first, to allow Lando to fly into the station and fire on its reactor
I think you are getting confused between the death star and the death star 2. While the were building the second one they had a giant shield generator to protect it while they were building it. But for the first one they literally just flew through the shield. To the point there have been countless discussions from fans over the years who didnt even realise the death star had shields at all. Look it up. Theres even a scene in the movie where I think red leader states they are passing through the shield.
Nothing the size, speed and power of Thragg exists in Star wars, so they didnt build anything to defend against it which is the whole reason Luke was able to get close enough to get a shot off. They thought thrier point defense could deal with anything like that.
Problem with this is that laser that was far more powerful then them
Yes and no. The laser is an unstoppable force, once shot it just keeps traveling through anything it meets, but it doesnt create a massive explosion or a spread out force. Think of it like a super sharp scalpel vs a nuclear bomb. Here, first panel is the reaction from the laser, second one is from them colliding. Here is a zoomed out look. The small entry blast at the top is bigger than the entire death star by the way. And I mean the explosion, not the crater it made.
So by themselves, they cannot punch through planet, that was whole point of why they had to get a laser
They can punch through most of a planet. Its specifically the core that was too solid and they needed the laser to weaken it enough that it caved under their force.
of course, here after planet far away exploded and shockwave hit them, well small part of it.
What? I thought it was weird that I couldnt remember what you were talking about. Thats not the blast of a planet far away. Thats the planet right fucking behind them blowing up into their directing showering them with high speed projectiles. And half the people in the in the first link are corpses from those who died from the virus who were floating around the planet that was destroyed. Here is them having just gone through that planet.. after you know destroying it. You can literally see the pieces of planet surrounding them. And for those that were alive not dead from the virus, their wounds are from them punching each other in the face before they got hit by chunks of planet... as you can see in the other link you sent.
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u/BlockAffectionate413 22h ago edited 21h ago
I think you are getting confused between the death star and the death star 2.
.It was actually revealed that the first one had gaps in shields, which is what allowed small things like fighters to pass through when they knew where those are, but the second one did not. That is why they could not pass through the second shields at all, and why I don't think Thragg can either. Now granted OP did not say which death star it is, but seeing as Sidious was only ever on the second, I think it makes snese to go with that one.
Nothing the size, speed and power of Thragg exists in Star wars, so they didnt build anything to defend against it which is the whole reason Luke was able to get close enough to get a shot off. They thought thrier point defense could deal with anything like that.
.This is not quite true, though. With speed would agree, but as far as Legends go, even weaker sith lords than Sidious, like Nihilus have objectively shown as good or better power than Thragg, even Nihilus can destroy the surface of a planet with a force wave( not just drain life on it, though he can do that too), which was confirmed by writer of comic where he did it as well. Valkorion can vaporize all oceans on planet and so forth. And capital ships have shown power on their level as well I would say, while these shields are made to endure that.
They can punch through most of a planet. Its specifically the core that was too solid and they needed the laser to weaken it enough that it caved under their force
.That is fair point, though I would say that capital ships in SW have as good feats as that, just punching untill core would be like country/continental level, capital ships in SW have shown such feats a number of times, and these shields are made to endure that.
Thats the planet right fucking behind them blowing up into their directing showering them with high speed projectiles.
.Yes, it is the core of a planet blowing up. The shockwave of that reach and knocked them out. Now due to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law
At that distance, tens of thousands of km away from the core that is blowing up, they would only endure small fraction of that energy, yet it still knocked them all out.And all of them were knocked out, even Allen by it. They were fighting yes, but moment shockawe reached them, even at that distance away, they were all knocked out cold for a time,so clearly they are not plaentary or such by themselves.
Here, first panel is the reaction from the laser, second one is from them colliding.
.Well, if I am not mistaken, In the show we saw said laser destroying stars , even not counting that, it clearly destabilized the whole core leading to explosion, punching a small hole in core would not do that, given the sheer size of core, it had to have done lot more damage, so my point was that it is hard to say did crater laser made grow bigger or was that just them. But in any case,even if it is jsut them that made it, it is not like capital ships in SW have not shown feats on that level as well, and these shields are made to endure blasts from them.
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u/MoralConstraint 22h ago
Problem with shields is that Thragg is both smaller and tougher than a starfighter, so he should be able to go straight through the first Death Star’s shields. The second one may be more problematic.
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u/BlockAffectionate413 22h ago
First one had samll gaps space ship could go through if it knows where they are yea, but second one had no such gaps. That is why Hans team had to go to planet and knock of shield generators first, meaning in case of that one, without that knowledge, he is going to struggle to get through.
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u/ExpressCeiling98332 21h ago
read the description of the post...
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u/BlockAffectionate413 21h ago
I know, you said preferably, and I answered how I think that goes too, I just wanted to say Legends would shake things up.
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u/SharpRoll5848 22h ago
I could see it argued a disturbance in the force as strong as Thragg may well allow them to do just that
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u/saltedduck3737 1d ago
No, there’s nothing they have in their arsenal that can stop him. They’ve never shown force abilities powerful enough to put down a viltrumite and he wouldn’t even give them a chnace
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u/ncopp 22h ago
Thragg wins pretty much 10/10 against canon Deathstar. He can just fly straight through it's reactor without even coming in contact with Vader. Even if it's shields stop him from doing it straight from the outside, he'll find a way in and then start from there.
It would take Legends Sidious to put up a fight
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u/ExpressCeiling98332 1h ago
I'm surprised, going by what some people on other threads have said, you'd think the viltrumites are made of paper.
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u/Ninjazoule Average 40k Enjoyer 23h ago
Palpatine (legends) might have a wincon if he can hit thragg with a wormhole and take him out of the scenario.
Other than that, no I don't think so. Thragg is too hard to hit by ships and he'd fly right through them. The entire crew on the DS and it's batteries are irrelevant.
I'm struggling to think of a canon solution
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u/Spiritual-Spend8187 21h ago
In the comics a viltiumite took a hit from a weapon not unlike the death star and it did basically nothing to them the only weapon that has been shown that can kill them is the space racers infinity ray which is able to not just destroy planets but whole stars.
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u/ExpressCeiling98332 21h ago
Hmmm, how powerful was this weapon?
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u/Spiritual-Spend8187 21h ago
In story it is said to destroy whole armies as well as whole stars so a minimum its atleast as powerful as star killer base and it is portable able to be used by a single person.
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u/ExpressCeiling98332 19h ago
When has a viltrumite been hit by this?
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u/Spiritual-Spend8187 16h ago
It's is mentioned by omni-man as one of the weaknesses/threats to viltrumites. And in the comics later on space racer shoots and kills a viltrumite with it the gun us later used to destroy a whole planet one way bigger then any planet destroyed by the death star. Currently in the show he is mentioned in the books Nolan left the one titles the man with the invincible gun is about him calling him space rider instead.
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u/ExpressCeiling98332 14h ago edited 14h ago
But, if it kills them, all that means it's strong enough to kill them... How does this show the Death Star won't?
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u/Spiritual-Spend8187 12h ago
True but in series vultriumites have survived planet busting attacks meaning only chance is the death star main super laser at full power which the ds-1 can't aim at such a small target let alone one faster then any ship in starwars so they stand no chance against thragg or any other viltriumite.
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u/lardicuss 14h ago
They would let Thragg have it. One day is not enough to mobilize enough ships to evacuate all personnel on board. They would evacuate all high-ranking officers and personnel. Palpatine would try to get a sample of his DNA for his oh-crap-Snoke-wasn't-supposed-to-die-in-episode-eight-you-stupid-hack clonning plan. Then he would do some legends-isn't-the-only-source-for-BS-force-powers ability revealed in Temu legends
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u/ProbablythelastMimsy 16h ago
Short of actually hitting him dead on with the death star (which is near impossible I'd say) there's nothing they can do to stop it. Maybe some wacky ability to force (heh) some wincon other than outright killing him.
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u/Leonelmegaman 1d ago
Sidous and Vader can probably stop them, but they need to use whatever Sith Sorcery they have available, and only with the entire day of prep, on a random encounter they get defeated.
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u/TrexPushupBra 19h ago
Step 1: use force to predict that he is coming Step 2: use force to predict his approach Step 3: schedule a test fire at that spot and time. Step 4: win
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u/ExpressCeiling98332 1h ago
The only way. But they'd have to... Move the base on position, aim at the exact spot, charge it at the exact time, and hope he doesn't dodge at the last moment...
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u/Stunning-HyperMatter 15h ago
Thragg stomps the Death Star. Basically zero chance with cannon. legends palps May be able to do something against thragg with force shenanigans. But still unlikely the Death Star would survive weather legends palps would or would noy defeat thragg.
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u/respectthread_bot 1d ago
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u/John_Holdfast 21h ago
If its death star 2 the emperor is likely on board and can stop him.
I don't think Vader is strong enough to stop thragg, only the emperor.
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u/Holy-Crap-Uncle 21h ago
Can Thragg penetrate Star Wars shielding, which is designed to stand up to turbolaser fire?
Turbolasers I guess are gigatons-of-TNT levels of power.
Tsar Bomba was 50MT (largest nuke ever tested)
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u/Mnemonist09 10h ago
Thragg is easily in that level, only problem i can see is how fast do those shields cycle?
Does it refresh instantly after every hit or does it need to cycle back to full power? If instant then it may hold a fair long while but if it doesn't then it breaks in short order cause the only thing holding back Thragg on delivering that kinda power is acceleration.
With an instant refresh then he's stuck to outlasting the power source which is doable but without it he'll have to do long windups to generate enough force, like he'll back up a couple miles then launch at full power for every hit to register hence the shield recharge delay is crucial to the equation
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u/ExpressCeiling98332 1h ago
I wouldn't be surprised If Thragg just broke through the shields anyway.
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u/vamfir 4h ago
As has already been said here - the main caliber of the Death Star will not hit the Viltrumite, and everything else is not scary to it. On the other hand, regarding Vader and the Emperor - as Mark proved to us using Conquest as an example, the Viltrumite CAN be strangled. So if the Dark Lords' foresight does not fail them once again (it often fails them) - Vader's force grip has a small chance.
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u/ExpressCeiling98332 1h ago
Thing is... Viltrumites can hold their breath for weeks on end. And it takes a similar level of physical force to their own actually hurt them too.
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u/vamfir 1h ago
I also thought it would take weeks, but Mark strangled Conquest in much less time...
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u/ExpressCeiling98332 50m ago
The question is... Was Conquest choking? Or was he hurt by his throat being crushed?
Or is it just another inconsistency...
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u/vamfir 33m ago
We discussed this in one thread. We came to the conclusion that strangulation differs from flying in a vacuum in that it blocks not only the flow of oxygen from the surrounding space to the lungs, but also the flow of blood to the brain. After all, the neck contains not only the trachea, but also large blood vessels. Vader is unlikely to have any problems with blocking the target's vessels.
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u/ExpressCeiling98332 26m ago
The real problem is... Can he overpower the viltrumites natural strength and resistances. Maybe
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u/Atechiman 1d ago
If Vader is aboard then he wins.
I forget how long the death star takes to charge, but they also win any after that.
Thragg might win the others.
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u/tris123pis 1d ago
The death star will never be able to hit him, its made to target planets and in rare occasions capital ships, not a man-sized target
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u/Atechiman 1d ago
It's an hundred meter wide beam, operating as a laser, which implies the stuff it impacts is atomized giving off immense radiation, getting close to him would be enough.
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u/tris123pis 1d ago
It also has a long and noticable firing sequence, thragg will be able to dodge it. Is there any lore saying the death star beam has radiation? It operates on kyber crystals so the physics being different from ours is entirely possible
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u/FastReactionTime 21h ago
Is there any lore saying the death star beam has radiation?
Hrrrm. Well extremely high energy lasers can accelerate electrons to relativistic speeds which then emit bremsstrahlung radiation, which I believe would include some gamma rays. The plasma from fuck-off tier high energy impacts can also emit X-rays if the plasma is hot enough. More importantly with the amount of energy being imparted atoms should immediately undergo massive nuclear fission, resulting in essentially a laser triggered nuclear blast.
However if it functions as some form of maser (like a laser but microwave beams) then it could be destroying the hydrogen atoms floating around in space and creating essentially tiny nuclear blasts as the beam travels through space. Emphasis on tiny, it likely wouldn't do anything until it his atmosphere. At which point everything goes boom.
Except this is star wars so its a fantasy turbolaser weapon and none of this matters. Nothing in star wars canon indicates turbolasers emit radiation so I don't think Thragg will be harmed by a near miss.
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u/FastReactionTime 21h ago
They have to rotate an entire moon sized battle station to point the thing since it is spinal mounted. If thragg is zig zagging, unless you want the hull to undergo 10 trillion G's of acceleration you aren't going to be able to target him.
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u/Randomdude2501 1d ago
How would the Death Star be able to target Thragg?
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u/Atechiman 1d ago
It's an hundred meter wide beam, and you don't need to be that close to him due to the radiation from random particles it hits.
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u/why_no_usernames_ 1d ago
I dont think you realise how big space is and how small 100 meters is within that.
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u/ExpressCeiling98332 1d ago
In the Death Star, some dudes were in a platform next to the cannon and weren't killed instantly.
And viltrumites cells can resist radiation to a great extent.
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u/Randomdude2501 1d ago
Again, how would they target him? He’s an extremely tiny and fast moving target. Has the Death Star been shown to target anything as small as a person, much less a Star fighter?
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u/ExpressCeiling98332 1d ago
How would Vader win? And how would they hit Thragg?
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u/Atechiman 1d ago
The force. Vader especially against anything that needs to breathe and is susceptible to the force.
Aim in his general vicinity, the beam is large enough and would give off enough radiation he would be atomized.
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u/ExpressCeiling98332 1d ago
The force. Vader especially against anything that needs to breathe and is susceptible to the forces.
Viltrumites are able to hold their breaths for weeks on end. And they aren't as weak as regular humans.
Aim in his general vicinity, the beam is large enough and would give off enough radiation he would be atomized.
Much easier said that done, especially against a human-sized thing in space.
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u/Levardgus 1d ago edited 1d ago
Vader makes Thragg puke like Green Ghost, he slams.
Into the Death Star.
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u/ExpressCeiling98332 1d ago
....Puke? What does do you mean?
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u/Levardgus 1d ago edited 1d ago
Spoilers from fight.
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u/ExpressCeiling98332 1d ago
But how would Vader do that? (Genuinely asking)
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u/why_no_usernames_ 1d ago
He cant. Something that fast and powerful is beyond anything Vader can deal with.
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u/Levardgus 1d ago
Precog, The Force, Force Rituals, Robot with bomb killed one Mark.
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u/why_no_usernames_ 1d ago
Precog will only let them know they are going to die soon, no force user as every targeted something as fast and powerful as Thragg, it would be harder than pulling a cruiser from hyperspace. Mark tanks multiple nukes without a scratch. Thragg is much stronger than the Mark who tanked those nukes.
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u/Levardgus 1d ago
Spoiler: Robot kills a mark with a regular detonator.
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u/why_no_usernames_ 23h ago
chapter please so I can double check the context, because mark objectively face tanks multiple nukes without a scratch
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u/tris123pis 1d ago
Aside from vader and the emperor i dont see the empire being able to do anything, the death star was made to aim at planets and star destroyers are made to destroy other capital ships, how dangerous these weapons are to thragg is a moot point because they wont be hitting him. Starfighter grade weaponry might hit but definetly wont do anything.
The only wildcard here is vader, as the emperor wont be able to come in a day