Character Scramble VII Tribunal

[u/mrcelophane]

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Welcome to the Tribunal!

As of now, signups for new submissions are officially closed.

Here’s a quick rundown of how this will work:

For the next week, all characters are under review. If you think a character is not fit for the scramble, here is where you have a final say to air your grievances. Also, this is a good chance to go over the submissions and make sure that the correct name is showing, I have the correct info, etc. I ask that everyone at least take the name under theirs and review all of the submissions.

If you have any problems with characters:

• Create a comment with the name of the character in question, a link to that character sheet, and the username (with /u/, to summon them- /u/mrcelophane, for instance) of the submitter. Then list what questions/problems you have with the character.

• Please be respectful when calling out characters, and remember that you are probably pointing out problems with someone's favorite character/series.

• Please give a complaint about each character a separate reply to make sure that conversations are organized.

• If a resolution is reached that does not require a change on my end, please delete your post so that it removes clutter.

• If a resolution is reached that requires my intervention, please call me out and I will come help out.

If your character is called out:

• First, realize this is not a personal attack. We are just trying to ensure that this tournament runs smoothly for everyone.

• Please address the concerns brought forth. This can either by standing firm and arguing for your character’s inclusion, or by buffing/nerfing the character. Please keep the amount of buffs and nerfs to a minimum. This isn’t a good place to redesign the character from the ground up.

• If it’s agreed that a character cannot work in its current state and can’t be easily edited, replacements from the backup submissions will be issued based on role. If one of your characters is being removed you are free to request a specific backup to replace your submission, otherwise myself or the Co-GM will choose for you.

If you see a problem with the roster:

• Make a post and let me know. Odds are, you will have to resubmit the form with the correct info so if you want to just go ahead and do that and let me know to look for the new entry, that would save time.

• If your problem is that you don't show up in the list, its because you never filled out/submitted the form...just go ahead and do that NOW, assuming that you started your sign up process before this post was created.

Featured submissions:

In an attempt to help aid the review process, we will be highlighting a section of the submissions each day to focus the lens on a group of submissions. Understand that these submissions aren’t being picked due to any reasoning or bias beyond their position on the list, our goal is to help you focus on specific parts of the submission list each day in the hopes that characters that would normally pass under the radar are given proper scrutiny.

Link here!

The link will be changed each day until we’ve covered the entire submission roster or until Tribunal has ended.

Link to list of current backups

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What follows will be the current unscrambled roster:

Submitter	Name	CharacterSheet	Role
JosephStalin	Rath	Brawn
JosephStalin	Demongo	Mystic
JosephStalin	The Experiment	Arsenal
JosephStalin	The Boss	Wildcard
JosephStalin	Megamind	Sponsor
JosephStalin	Handsome Jack	Sponsor
76sup	Reptile	Brawn
76sup	Rain	Mystic
76sup	Waluigi	Arsenal
76sup	JonTron with Magician's Red	Wildcard
76sup	GLaDOS	Sponsor
76sup	Krakua	Wildcard
MoSBanapple	Nogi Wakaba	Brawn
MoSBanapple	Administrator	Mystic
MoSBanapple	Eve Neuschwanstein	Arsenal
MoSBanapple	Ruby Rose (Blood Rose)	Wildcard
MoSBanapple	Church	Sponsor
MoSBanapple	Strength	Arsenal
GuyOfEvil	Karnak	Brawn
GuyOfEvil	Kessler	Mystic
GuyOfEvil	Mirror Master	Arsenal
GuyOfEvil	Alice Twilight	Wildcard
GuyOfEvil	Mr. Sinister	Sponsor
GuyOfEvil	Silk	Wildcard
ViperhawkZ	Alex Mercer	Brawn
ViperhawkZ	Sekarvu	Mystic
ViperhawkZ	The Meta	Arsenal
ViperhawkZ	Zeratul	Wildcard
ViperhawkZ	Coil	Sponsor
doctorgecko	"Deku" Izuku Midoriya	Brawn
doctorgecko	Mew (First Movie)	Mystic
doctorgecko	Cynthia and her Garchomp	Arsenal
doctorgecko	Nico Robin (Pre-Timeskip)	Wildcard
doctorgecko	Green	Sponsor
doctorgecko	Sabrina (Pokemon Anime)	Mystic
aquason	Omi	Brawn
aquason	Yamoto Koki	Mystic
aquason	Dark Pit	Arsenal
aquason	Lizzie Shinkicker	Wildcard
aquason	Milo Amastacia-Liadon	Sponsor
selfproclaimed	Stevonnie	Brawn
selfproclaimed	Twilight Sparkle	Mystic
selfproclaimed	Iji	Arsenal
selfproclaimed	Littlepip	Wildcard
selfproclaimed	Fuuka Yamagishi	Sponsor
selfproclaimed	Wiz and Boomstick	Sponsor
shootdawhoop99	Alex Louis Armstrong	Brawn
shootdawhoop99	Dave Strider	Mystic
shootdawhoop99	Conker the Squirrel	Arsenal
shootdawhoop99	LEGO Spiderman	Wildcard
shootdawhoop99	Blank	Sponsor
teatreeoilguy	King Kong (Original Version with Animated Version's Feats)	Brawn
teatreeoilguy	Shang Tsung	Mystic
teatreeoilguy	Mr. Satan (w/ gear from the games)	Arsenal
teatreeoilguy	Goku (Dragonball Evolution)	Wildcard
teatreeoilguy	Happy Mask Salesman	Sponsor
teatreeoilguy	Goku Jr.	Brawn
LetterSequence	Dio Brando (Part 1)	Brawn
LetterSequence	Pikachu Libre	Mystic
LetterSequence	Mifune	Arsenal
LetterSequence	Bollywood Action Hero	Wildcard
LetterSequence	All-Star Batman	Sponsor
LetterSequence	Akira Otoishi	Mystic
Talvasha	Lady Maria	Brawn
Talvasha	Vin Venture	Mystic
Talvasha	Zi Yu	Arsenal
Talvasha	Yu Mira	Wildcard
Talvasha	Adlet Mayer	Sponsor
Talvasha	Mr. Red	Brawn
Lanugo1984	Agent Smith	Brawn
Lanugo1984	Eddie Riggs	Mystic
Lanugo1984	Triborg	Arsenal
Lanugo1984	Pops (T-3000)	Wildcard
Lanugo1984	Rick Sanchez (Earth C-137)	Sponsor
ojajaja	Greninja	Brawn
ojajaja	Jake Long	Mystic
ojajaja	Green Goblin	Arsenal
ojajaja	Superior Spider-Man	Wildcard
ojajaja	Emma Frost	Sponsor
ojajaja	Recca Hanabishi	Mystic
Cleverly_Clearly	"Sleepy" John Estes	Brawn
Cleverly_Clearly	Katsuki Bakugou	Mystic
Cleverly_Clearly	Travis Touchdown	Arsenal
Cleverly_Clearly	Saiga Riki-Oh	Wildcard
Cleverly_Clearly	Crazy Dave	Sponsor
Cleverly_Clearly	Ryoga Hibiki	Wildcard
TheMightyBox72	Shizuo Heiwajima	Brawn
TheMightyBox72	Princess Peach Toadstool	Mystic
TheMightyBox72	Samus Aran	Arsenal
TheMightyBox72	Hisako	Wildcard
TheMightyBox72	Akane Kurashiki	Sponsor
TheMightyBox72	Captain Pronin	Wildcard
flutterguy123	Yujiro Hanma	Brawn
flutterguy123	Star Butterfly	Mystic
flutterguy123	Furio Mumbasa	Arsenal
flutterguy123	Arlong	Wildcard
flutterguy123	Spencer Reid	Sponsor
rangernumberx	Mr. Incredible	Brawn
rangernumberx	Mewtwo (16th Movie)	Mystic
rangernumberx	Adam Jensen	Arsenal
rangernumberx	Lucario (Composite)	Wildcard
rangernumberx	Wade	Sponsor
SirLordBobIV	Kiyomasa Senji	Brawn
SirLordBobIV	Weiss Schnee	Mystic
SirLordBobIV	Lubbock	Arsenal
SirLordBobIV	Beet	Wildcard
SirLordBobIV	Maxwell	Sponsor
7thSonOfSons	Vi	Brawn
7thSonOfSons	Jack	Mystic
7thSonOfSons	Xenovia Quarta	Arsenal
7thSonOfSons	Ryu Hayabusa	Wildcard
7thSonOfSons	Rias Gremory	Sponsor
KarlMrax	Furher Bradley/Wrath	Brawn
KarlMrax	Plague Knight	Mystic
KarlMrax	Alicia DeVries	Arsenal
KarlMrax	Shovel Knight	Wildcard
KarlMrax	VFP Xenophobe	Sponsor
penrosetingle	Reinhardt Wilhelm	Brawn
penrosetingle	Marisa Kirisame	Mystic
penrosetingle	Pathfinder Armour	Arsenal
penrosetingle	Santana	Wildcard
penrosetingle	Dr. Elliott Grosvenor	Sponsor
Fragmentary_Remains	Tarboy	Brawn
Fragmentary_Remains	Queen Sectonia	Mystic
Fragmentary_Remains	President Haltmann	Arsenal
Fragmentary_Remains	Kracko	Wildcard
Fragmentary_Remains	Gerhard Visser	Sponsor
noitnemid	King Dedede	Brawn
noitnemid	Alice Margatroid	Mystic
noitnemid	Curly Brace	Arsenal
noitnemid	Joseph Joestar	Wildcard
noitnemid	Robin	Sponsor
Parysian	Smaug	Brawn
Parysian	Gaara of the Sand	Mystic
Parysian	The Collector General	Arsenal
Parysian	Chevalier	Wildcard
Parysian	Summoner	Sponsor
Parysian	Helen, The Administrator	Sponsor
Steezy112	Hellboy	Brawn
Steezy112	Alphonse Elric	Mystic
Steezy112	Cad Bane	Arsenal
Steezy112	Jake the Dog	Wildcard
Steezy112	Stewie Griffin	Sponsor
morvis343	Durin's Bane	Brawn
morvis343	Balthazar Blake	Mystic
morvis343	Baymax	Arsenal
morvis343	Deadpool	Wildcard
morvis343	Bastila Shan	Sponsor
Alrightmagotlistenup	Edgardo	Brawn
Alrightmagotlistenup	Kanade Tachibana	Mystic
Alrightmagotlistenup	Draven Rowen	Arsenal
Alrightmagotlistenup	The Rabid Heavy Taming Engineer, and his Rabid Heavy	Wildcard
Alrightmagotlistenup	Robbie Rotten	Sponsor
TheArmoredTitan	Superman	Brawn
TheArmoredTitan	Rin Tohsaka	Mystic
TheArmoredTitan	Ruby Rose	Arsenal
TheArmoredTitan	Killy	Wildcard
TheArmoredTitan	Sosuke Aizen	Sponsor
globsterzone	Kamacuras	Brawn
globsterzone	Magneto	Mystic
globsterzone	Darkhawk	Arsenal
globsterzone	Hellsgaard	Wildcard
globsterzone	Dr. Fetus	Sponsor
Verlux	Albert Wesker	Brawn
Verlux	Edward Elric	Mystic
Verlux	Don Krieg	Arsenal
Verlux	Wolverine	Wildcard
Verlux	Fred and George Weasley	Sponsor
angelsrallyon	Stitch	Brawn
angelsrallyon	Sora	Mystic
angelsrallyon	General Grievous	Arsenal
angelsrallyon	POTUS	Wildcard
angelsrallyon	Scorpius	Sponsor
BookWyrm17	Mr. Canis/The Big Bad Wolf	Brawn
BookWyrm17	Nico de Angelo	Mystic
BookWyrm17	Luigi	Arsenal
BookWyrm17	Tigger	Wildcard
BookWyrm17	Gru	Sponsor
Professor Ravioli	Dr Stein (Weilding Marie)	Brawn
Professor Ravioli	Jackie	Mystic
Professor Ravioli	Sogeking	Arsenal
Professor Ravioli	Shouta	Wildcard
Professor Ravioli	Shikamaru Nara	Sponsor
kaioshin_	Yang Xiao Long	Brawn
kaioshin_	Johnny Blaze	Mystic
kaioshin_	Dick Grayson	Arsenal
kaioshin_	Penny Polendina	Wildcard
kaioshin_	Piccolo	Sponsor
kaioshin_	Pyrrha Nikos	Wildcard
galvanicmechamorph	Garnet	Brawn
galvanicmechamorph	Diamondhead	Mystic
galvanicmechamorph	Preston Stormer	Arsenal
galvanicmechamorph	Pyrrha Nikos	Wildcard
galvanicmechamorph	Black Hat	Sponsor
OddDirective	Sheamus	Brawn
OddDirective	Flynt Coal	Mystic
OddDirective	Kyosuke Munakata	Arsenal
OddDirective	Gluttony	Wildcard
OddDirective	Mr. Finch	Sponsor
Panory	Rex Salazar	Brawn
Panory	Maka Albarn and Soul "Eater" Evans	Mystic
Panory	Shuri	Arsenal
Panory	Giriko	Wildcard
Panory	Durzo Blint	Sponsor
FreestyleKneepad	Iron Fist	Brawn
FreestyleKneepad	Yozakura	Brawn
FreestyleKneepad	Bruno Buccellati	Mystic
FreestyleKneepad	Taskmaster	Arsenal
FreestyleKneepad	Morel Mackernasey	Wildcard
FreestyleKneepad	Bob the Skull	Sponsor
FreestyleKneepad	Commander Shepard	Sponsor
Kiwiarms	Magikarp	Brawn
Kiwiarms	Kyuemon Izayoi (MidoNinger)	Mystic
Kiwiarms	Aigis	Arsenal
Kiwiarms	Zoe Orimoto	Wildcard
Kiwiarms	Rita Repulsa	Sponsor
Kiwiarms	Zilla	Brawn
7thSonOfSons	Rika and Renamon	Mystic
CalicoLime	Esdeath	Brawn
CalicoLime	Sir Crocodile	Mystic
CalicoLime	Fulgore	Arsenal
CalicoLime	Mysterio	Wildcard
CalicoLime	Kingpin	Sponsor
CalicoLime	Warrior Chicken Poyo	Brawn

[u/MoSBanapple]

If you do the same thing you do for a normal post, eventually you end up with one character who would simply win, because his speed is crazy, or he can tank pretty much whatever, or he can punch just hard enough.

This is why we do tiers, so no character completely dominates. Luigi isn't really fit for the tier.

So the main idea of the Scramble, just me looking at it from the outside, is not to do the same thing every other post does, just on a larger scale.

We do a lot of standard /r/whowouldwin style analysis in the scramble. Here's an example. In such analysis writings, Luigi would be getting a LOT of 0/10s or 1/10s. Take a look at what was written about Onizuka, who was a below-tier submission:

Onizuka… why are you here? To be a valid submission, you need to at least be able to 1/10 Captain America or Batman, and Onizuka can’t do that. He’s basically the comic relief sidekick that accomplishes nothing and gets his shit kicked in.

He doesn't sound like he enjoyed getting an underpowered character. Likewise, Luigi would get his shit kicked in by everyone else in the scramble, and it would be hard for anyone to do anything with the character.

It is to take into account the special abilities and the special weaknesses of each character and pit THOSE against each other in a creative battle. If you limit to the most literal versions of every character, there's really only one winner.

We also take into account physicals, of which Luigi's is below tier. We take into account abilities and weaknesses, yes, but we compare then in a neutral, objective way and analyze how they match up against each other, then determine what side is likely to be the winner. And most of the times, yes, there's one likely winner.

But in this case, you must make your characters win, however you can. It's a rule.

Yes, and this is similar to a type of post we commonly see on /r/whowouldwin called [How the Hell]. That doesn't mean we can consider Luigi on par with Spiderman-tier characters.

So in order to let more characters in and see how the abilities match up, the idea would be to even out all the characters to be about the same. If you really look at it, Spiderman without his spidey sense would pretty much always lose against one with his spidey sense, and yet this wants characters that can go from beating the weak one to beating the strong one. It's a wide range, and the ones at the top are just going to win.

Not necessarily. Yes, a Spidey w/o sense would lose against one with sense, but that's just a character VS a nerfed version of the same character. Characters on the high end don't always win 10/10 against characters on the low end, and there's plenty of examples of lower-end characters having positive matchups against higher-end characters. For example, Taskmaster, a character on the lower-end of the tier, beats Iron Fist, who's on the higher end, due to Taskmaster's ability to learn and counter Iron Fist's fighting style.

If their main ability can put up a fight, their strength and durability and speed would be buffed or debuffed to fit the rest, maybe making them a little weaker or not.

The problem is, Luigi has nothing that can put up a fight. No equipment, no physicals, no abilities, nothing that can really do anything at this tier.

Obviously, we wouldn't take a guy with a baseball bat and simply make him stronger. But when he would only lose because, ah, he's not quite fast enough, buffing his speed makes it interesting. Maybe not enough to be equal, but enough to be a contender.

Again, Luigi would need buffing everywhere. Physicals, abilities, equipment, etc.

It just seems like there would be a lot more options if we took the characters, not in comparison to other games, but in comparison to their own game.

When we look at a character, we look at their feats objectively, not in comparison with the rest of their universe. Take a look at Onizuka, mentioned above. He's the strongest character in his universe by a decently significant margin. However, he was bottom-tier dogshit within the context of scramble 5, with his best feats being punching into computers and surviving falls from a few stories high.

In most cases, iirc, spiderman is quite a bit faster, generally about as strong, and lighter than most characters in his world. His biggest thing is his agility.

Compared to his universe, which has characters like Thanos, Namor, and Iron Man, Spiderman is on the low end. Using that logic, Onizuka would stomp him because Onizuka is strong and fast compared to everyone in his universe. Yet, we don't do that, because objectively from a feats perspective Onizuka gets stomped by Spiderman. Similarly, Luigi would get stomped by everyone in the scramble.

So, to match them up, they are both lighter, while spiderman is slightly stronger. Spiderman has his webs and can jump around really fast, while Luigi can also jump high (but not climb walls) and has his vacuum, which presumably has it's own special durability.

Despite what he appears to be like in game, we have no reason to think he can come close to Spiderman in speed, strength, or really anything else.

You would do this with all characters you want entered. Take their traits from their world, and apply it to the game.

No, you wouldn't. Otherwise, you could say things like Onizuka stomps Silver Surfer because Onizuka is stronger than anything in his universe, while Surfer has a lot of characters stronger than him.

Anyways, bringing it back to the topic at hand: there's a reason we have a tribunal, to determine that characters are in tier based on their feats and abilities. I have yet to be convinced that Luigi is in tier based on his feats and abilities.

[u/BookWyrm17 → u/MoSBanapple]

Right, so my point didn't get across. I suppose that was to be expected, I don't explain things very well sometimes. Less a about how they compare to the others and more about what makes them special, how they win n' stuff.

Aaaannyway, yeah. Luigi really isn't fast enough to compete against Spiderman. I'll have to find a backup, though it's late here so I'll have to do it in the morning.

[u/Cleverly_Clearly → u/BookWyrm17]

You could try buffing his speed to spider-man levels, if that's the only issue.

[u/BookWyrm17 → u/Cleverly_Clearly]

They said his strength wasn't really enough, that he'd have to be buffed all around to work. So I'm not sure, I was thinking that was almost the goal, was to get several interesting characters together by buffing them enough to be threats to each other, but I dunno.

[u/Cleverly_Clearly → u/BookWyrm17]

The simplest option would be just to say "Give Luigi the base physicals of Spider-man". That could work.

The goal IS to get a bunch of characters who can challenge each other, but WhoWouldWin has always had a neutral universe system where characters are only defined by their feats. That's just the way it is. As it stands now, I think Luigi is objectively weaker than spider-man, so he would have to be buffed to make it in tier.

[u/BookWyrm17 → u/Cleverly_Clearly]

For some reason, I thought that was rather frowned upon. I don't know why I got that impression, though. I've been talking about a neutral universe for a while now, where their abilities that are special is the main part.

I'll do that then. Luigi, in this case, has pretty much the same base physicals of Spiderman, though maybe a little bit slower.

I hope I'm doing this right.

[u/Cleverly_Clearly → u/BookWyrm17]

Check with the other people you've been arguing this with and see if they agree with you.

[u/BookWyrm17 → u/Cleverly_Clearly]

Great, okay so they said one of the best ways to do it would probably be to scale him off of some of his sports feats (we discussed Galaxy but jumping from planet to planet is a bit much).

Anyway, he has enough speed and power to light a tennis ball on fire just from hitting it, was one of the examples they had. Some stuff from his respect thread is that he can run fast enough to run on water for a short time.

[u/Cleverly_Clearly → u/BookWyrm17]

The tennis ball thing was just a hypothetical example. I'm not sure if he can do that. Running on water is moving at about thirty meters per second, or about 67 miles per hour. I don't think that's really fast enough.

Luigi doesn't have a great respect thread, and some of the stuff in it would probably put him over tier. I think the best thing to do would be simply to scale him off of Waluigi, who is already generally considered to be in this tier based on his RT, and just say that he has equivalent physicals to Waluigi. If we go off of base stats, this is probably true. For instance, here we can see Luigi doing the same thing that Waluigi is doing (shattering a large boulder with the help of a partner). I think that just scaling it directly off of Waluigi would work. Waluigi is strong enough to smash through multiple brick walls with a baseball pitch, fast enough to leave afterimages and leave a trail of fire when he runs, and survive large explosions. I think that these things could easily make Luigi in tier.

What do you think?

[u/BookWyrm17 → u/Cleverly_Clearly]

Certainly sounds easier than me! It's the same effect, anyway, that we are trying to get.