The Great Debate Tourney Round 1

[u/Verlux]

The Brackets for the Tourney in case anyone has forgotten already

Link to full team submissions for those who want a quick rundown

A quick reminder of the rules of this tourney for any newcomers or visitors:

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Contestants

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The most important part of the tournament, who you can enter and what tier they must fit in. So what is our requirements? Your entrant must be able to do one of the following:

Beat Roronoa Zoro from One Piece 3/10 times at minimum

or

Beat Monkey D. Luffy from One Piece 7/10 times at maximum

and finally

Speed is Equalized

So basically, if your character can beat a speed-equalized Zoro / Luffy, you're probably good for this tourney. As long as your character fits somewhere between those two points you're fine.

The reason for equalizing speed is because there's simply too much range between characters around this level, as well as One Piece speed being a rather hot debate in and of itself. Basically, the argument of "X is too fast, they are completely untouchable and stomp" is boring, and it's hard to gauge just how fast this tier is as is. As for what gets equalized, all characters get their travel and reaction speeds equalized to Mach 300, (around lightning timing), however all projectiles retain their speed. If a character shoots lightning, that lightning keeps its speed. Never forget that Aim-dodging exists. Also, Speed-Boosts are disallowed, while debuffs are allowed.

In short, if your character falls within that range, you can safely enter them. Additionally, you must choose 3 entrants, as this will be a team match. I highly recommend giving RTs or at least a few feats with your entrants, both for your opponent's sake as well as your own. Please pay attention to the order you submit them as well for reasons elaborated on later. Additionally, like Scramble, we will host a tribunal sometime after this post so that excessively strong or weak submissions can be replaced. As a result, please keep a couple characters in mind in case your characters get booted, so that you can replace them.

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Matches

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So how do the matches go down? At the start of each batch of matches, I will randomly determine if a match is a team match or individual 1v1 matches Something like this

• If a result is heads: The match is a team match, with all three of your characters fighting all three of their characters simultaneously

• If a result is tails: The match is individual 1v1s, with all three characters each individually fighting one character of the opponents team

The 1v1 rounds are why your submission order counts. The first character you submitted will fight their first, your second against their second, and your third against their third. However, Team Matches also have their nuances. For one thing All characters are fully in-character, no exception. Turns out if you have a goody two shoes hero and an unrepentant serial killer on the same team they may not cooperate with each other. The only limit to their characters is that they won't attack their own teammates, regardless of how badly they may want to. Your characters are spawned knowing the rough backstory, personality, and powers of their teammates, and that they have to fight the enemy team to win. They do not know the enemy team.

So what about other stipulations? Well here's the following

• Fight is to KO or Death

• All fights start in the Corrida Colisseum and has full range of the island to fight on. The island is uninhabited.

• All debate will last for roughly 3 days. After this, the debate is closed and voting commences.

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Voting

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The most important part, how you win and progress to the next round. In short, you will fill out a form and vote on your fellow users debates on whose team you think won. Here's an example form.

• You must vote on all matches to progress

• You must win the vote to progress

• Anyone not participating in the matches is free to vote, so long as their account is 8 months old. I will be going through all the votes to make sure they're legitimate and adjusting results if need be

• I will break any potential ties that occur. Otherwise, I am not voting.

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Rewards

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Issa secret, shhhhhhhhhh

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Round 1 Match-Ups and Fight Conditions

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/u/pirate-king-ace vs /u/potentialpizza - Team Match

/u/GuyOfEvil vs /u/mrstack345 - Team Match

/u/he-man69 vs /u/Verlux - 1v1 Matches

/u/doctorgecko vs /u/kyraryc - Team Match

/u/mrtangelo vs /u/benyo_scarza - Team Match

/u/mommid vs /u/captain-turtle - Team Match

/u/spawntheterminator vs /u/embracealldeath - Team Match

/u/cleverly_clearly vs /u/imadethison6-28-2015 - 1v1 Matches

/u/stranger-er vs /u/jedidiahohlord - 1v1 Matches

All match-up conditions determined, as mentioned above, using an internet-based coin flipping simulator.

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MATCHES WILL END ON TUESDAY, MAY 2, AT APPROXIMATELY 5PM EST. ANY DEBATE POSTED BEYOND THIS TIME LIMIT WILL BE DISCOUNTED AND REMOVED. PLAN ON HAVING CLOSING ARGUMENTS BY THAT POINT IN TIME

Voting will go up shortly thereafter, with the next round taking place within a day or two of voting.

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JUST TO BE CLEAR; YOU ARE ARGUING WHY YOU BELIEVE YOUR TEAM OR MATCHUP WOULD WIN, VIA ARGUING FEATS FOR YOUR TEAM/MEMBERS, ANTI-FEATS FOR YOUR OPPOSING TEAM/MEMBERS, ETC. DEBATE WHY YOU BELIEVE YOUR SUBMISSIONS WILL BEAT YOUR OPPONENT'S IN THE GIVEN STIPULATIONS.

[u/Mommid]

PART 3

What if Sora doesn't happen to time stop, what then?

Hakuryuu starts by trying to mind control via illusions/memory manipulation, which doesn’t require djinn equip. This incaps anyone who doesn’t have resistance to mind attacks in order to finish this quickly and without fighting, as he tried vs Alibaba and Aladdin. Anyone on your team have resistance feats? After this, just continue with Fana’s fire and Sora would have to replace Hakuryuu’s contribution from my previous plan by going to a drive form and using all offensive magic.

If we assume Sora charges in, as you very much want to assume, his physical attacks are multi-building/pillar attacks so he can maybe do something to Jellal if he hits him (depends on what feats that shield has which are still unclear) then after the dash use firaga, a common combo to do after charging. Also, Sora has short range teleportation so this entire exchange can be done by surprising your team. If he is met with attacks before he could hit them, he reflects whatever they shoot at him and it would blow back on their face. While Sora had charged first, Hakuryuu would charge in after him after activating Zagan. His spear attacks can create decent sized craters (and this was he was only half equipped and first djinn fight) and one hit would cause internal damage too via magoi manipulation. Every slash he makes could create acidic bacteria monsters. Caesar won’t be affected by this stuff, except firaga, but will try to poison them. They’ll dodge and Sora would time stop or Graviga after that. If poison works, Sora uses Esuna first then time stop. After that, have Fana end it with her attacks along with Hakuryuu’s bacteria decomposition.

If Toshiro attempts a giant ice wave from the get go before Sora dashes in, Fana counters it with Salamander’s Breath, opening way for Sora and Hakuryuu. If Jellal shoots something, gets reflected by Sora. Caesar either just dodged or cured with Esuna, he’s basically a mild inconvenience this fight.

If at any point, Hakuryuu is in trouble, he’ll go into Belial, who can cut away the senses of body parts he hits with his scythe. If Fana is in trouble, she’ll go 3rd eye and be more useful but you’re making it harder for me to use Fana because you wanna assume Sora charges in first.

[u/Captain-Turtle → u/Mommid]

PART 1 RESPONSE (1/3)

My bad then, your scan wasn’t very clear and you edited your comment with more context after I’ve started on my reply,

No I didn't, I did edit the middle parts and told you whenever I did edit to refresh so you get all the info.

Ikkaku, one of the slow Shinigami characters, was able to barely get hit and probably would’ve dodged fully if he didn’t have to save Yumichika, who was able to avoid the ice.

Ikkaku started dodging before Toshiro even swung his blade. He hit yumichika and jumped himself before Toshiro swung his blade, it wasn't when the attack started.

Ikkaku, one of the slow Shinigami characters, was able to barely get hit and probably would’ve dodged fully if he didn’t have to save Yumichika

Yeah cause he started moving before toshiro did anything.

Do you have scans of him being to tag faster people with long range freeze?

Tagging tier, who could fight with hiyori (who could speed blitz shikai ichigo and took on ichigo when he was consumed by the hollow), lisa (same as what hiyori could do and had similar speeds to the captains in the pendulum arc) and toshiro at the same time and was able to tag Bazz who could catch up to and surprise attack EoS ichigo (and he also could react to and immediately counter yamamoto's flames). He also forced Gin to shunpo away the first time he hit him, then he immediately hit him again with the ice attack and he couldn't shunpo away so he cut it in half but still got tagged and had his arm freeze. Hell his ice was so fast he flew by gerard and hit him before he could move, a big difference between dodging and not being able to even react. Toshiro's ice is extremely fast he's fine.

I don’t know what exactly you mean by normal angry. If you meant without her 3rd eye, then she didn’t have the aura but if she’s provoked or close to getting defeated aka frozen by Toshiro, 3rd eye will unseal. Fana is even easier to go into her 3rd eye mode because of her embodiment of hatred, basically bloodlusted.

Yeah you assumed correctly, it makes sense she could go 3rd eye mode but if she did end up going that then she might end up damaging hakuryuu badly. And even then it's not completely sure if Fana can even melt his ice. Bazz was getting froze by his ice and had to go to the level of yamamoto's shikai before he could start melting it, and that was able to incinerate holes in people (Ayon) and completely turn a sternritter into ashes, sternritters have blut vene and enhanced endurance and normally are able to block blades like ichigo's shikai fine with it, he could also turn multiple cities to ash and the attack that bazz cancelled out was massive. Aura that can only burn skin or fireballs that can only hurt some fodder (sora) don't seem like things that can burn through toshiro's ice.

We’ve never seen major elemental spirits get summoned after the first time they’re unlocked.

lmao funny you say that since the first Time we saw fana she didn't have the salamander

First off, the heat aura is basically releasing magic. If she controls the amount she releases, it won’t be enough to damage her teammates.

This is in-character, she won't control anything.

Her heat aura wasn’t at the level of melting skin the entire fight, only towards the end

Yeah and if she did get froze she’d have to increase her heat by a lot to get out. And if she’s triggered that would happen as well. Which might leave Sora OK but hakuryuu could be hurt, their skin didn't even melt lol, it was burning, not as impressive but still hot.

Sora has pretty good defences in-game like getting hit by meteors, buildings thrown with telekinesis, and even fights against fire attacks that turn the floor something akin to lava. Hakuryuu is a bit of glass cannon though

Show scans, his ice durability seems bad and normal durability seems really inconsistent as well, fodder nobodies taking away 1/10th of his health? You can't solely high-ball and talk about only his best feats. And the floor didn’t turn to lava lol, he just used heat magic on the floor and the floor turned hot, while also damaging him I’m assuming. It’s nowhere near the same as the fire melting the area through heat, hell, the floor looked fine afterwards.

He also has Curaga and Aeroga, which would decrease damage dealt to my entire team by 50% for a duration of time so Hakuryuu being a bit of a glass cannon can be somewhat helped

Why are they named different. And yeah the damage decrease could work against offensive attacks like jellal’s energy blasts or punches, but things like poison, oxygen deficiency, and being frozen probably won't be affected.

Hakuryuu isn't completely helpless though since he has magoi manipulation to cover parts of his body for a bit to deal with mountain level attack

Shit that’s cool, initially it didn’t completely look like he blocked it but the previous panel confirmed he used his hand to initially block it (although it seems the hand died off), it most likely was magoi manipulation that he concentrated on his hand to top amon’s blade, just like he does with his sword. Also I think you think that Alibaba still had EM on, EM summons amon and here amon used his firepower to make a firewall so Alibaba could charge at him, then Amon went, he was hitting him with Amon’s sword, not his EM. The range of that defense is really low though, blocking only from his hand, he can block a few attacks but the rest would definitely tag him.

Hakuryuu still has abilities he can use while not transformed but he has enough time to transform while your team is time stopped anyways.

Yeah he still has abilities but he's way lower in tier than the rest of them still, especially for durability. For the timestop, that'd on the assumption that sora can even time stop all 3 of them at the same time. Which won't happen unless he did it in the beginning which I explained won't happen.

Also, Toshiro has to transform into bankai (ik he has abilities outside of bankai, just pointing out double standards)

The power of human hakuryuu is way lower than the djinn equip version, human hakuryuu is just a street-tier with some plant arrows, but toshiro (as you saw by my first scan) can keep up with the rest of them fine. Wasn't doing a double standard. This is like tony stark vs hulk, they both can get stronger (Tony with the hulk buster) but initially Hulk would be wayyyy out of Tony's tier that he can just go and die there if he doesn't get amped up soon. Since Jellal doesn't need anything from them, he can just swat them away into a blood pool with telekenisis, sure it wouldn't work on Sora or Fana cause of their durability, but hakuryuu could get hit easy. Also speaking of, does Fana have any durability feats on her own? Or does the salamander always get hit instead?

Ikkaku only had his leg frozen, so you have no feats of that attack you scanned overwhelming an entire person.

Ikakku said how his leg was gone, aka would've been shattered and broke (which happened with shawlong's entire body and luppi's tentacles when they were frozen, and would have happened to tier unless she was saved by Wonderweiss, it also turned mayuri into ice that shattered his entire body if he wasn't an illusion), and a normal ice blow could completely blow off the arm of an arrancar in ressurection if you wanna see some feats of how strong it can be. Also here's Mayuri being frozen completely and shattering

[u/Captain-Turtle → u/Captain-Turtle]

PART 1 RESPONSE (2/3)

There are attacks that surround Sora that get reflected/blocked, as the barrier is completely around him so it should still work.

Ok show that.

He spams it here. It also becomes faster, stronger and bigger range when he goes into a drive form

Has that fire done anything impressive? Seems normal. And can he do that while frozen?

You barely provided scans, much less context, in your replies so what I did was ask you for them, not lecture you. Another example of double standards.

You're much more knowledgeable on the series my characters are in than I am with Kingdom hearts, we both failed to provide scans and context with some of our claims in our initial comments, whatever.

You might be right about it not working when frozen.

Yeah ik I am my nigga

I did say it took him a few seconds. I was showing you all the possible ways he can get out, not saying this one is the best way.

Yeah and I was countering each point and got to this one...I never said that was his only method, just said it didn't seem great.

Looks more impressive than freezing Ikkaku’s leg.

Not really since Sora was just frozen externally and could break out, while ikakku's leg, if the ice broke, would break with it, same with Shawlong, Luppi and Mayuri.

The form is irrelevant to the feat. If you continue watching the video, he might get frozen without that form and break out of it as usual.

Ok just wanted to check.

This ability is like his strongest ability that he dislikes using

False. He dislikes using it in Bankai cause he thinks he can't control it, he's fine using it in shikai, but he was able to only tag Tier in it so I feel like he's fine with using it, shikai or not, since his control was pretty good.

(idk why you’re calling her Tia)

like spelling matters

escaped from it after a while

wrong again, Wonderweiss had to get her out.

You also can’t scale the strength of this ability to other abilities implying his all his ice could be as strong as it.

uhh I don't think I did, I'm the one who pointed it out that his ice has varying strength with the technique lmao

Scans of this

(this being gerrard's arm being frozen)

and I’m feeling that this will be another ability that will probably be too slow to hit my team since Gerrard is an easy target that doesn’t care to dodge.

Ha. Doubt it, Gerard was trying to punch the ground (aka was moving in high-speed movement) and got froze, and also he had to use his shield on his other arm to break free, his normal arm (which was wayyy stronger than kenpachi's meteor busting arm) couldn't break through on its own. I highly doubt the tower-breaking sora or crater-man hakuryuu can do anything about the ice if they're frozen, and to bring it up again, the second time he was frozen he couldn't even react to it, let along fail to dodge

That’s true

ik it is my nigga

Water can be used as his weapon by freezing it, like when the water hit Kira and it froze. He doesn’t deal damage with his water alone.

He was shooting out ice and water and the water tagged kira and was so cold it started freezing.

Also, idk on what basis you can say he can spam more than Fana. The scan you showed of him saying he doesn’t have to wait for water is when he used Tensō Jūrin and Hyōten Hyakkasō, which Toshiro said he wouldn’t usually use it while in Bankai. He doesn’t usually have control of water without it from what I can tell, only his ice.

Same reason he said when he was fighting Tier, he used all the water in the sky to use hyokken hyakkasou but in general all water in the atmosphere is his weapon, and he can also create it on his own too. Think of it like if Natsu was fighting in an arena with someone and the entire area was on fire, he can constantly use it to strengthen himself. I think it is more spammable as Fana's runs on her mana pool, while he runs on his reatsu and the water in the atmosphere and the skies. He can still use those sources without using hyokken.

From the scan you linked, I’d say Fana’s is even bigger. It’s spamable as it’s the same ability everytime she uses it.

I mean I disagree. This is Toshiro's spammable ice and this is Fana's spammable fire, buildings are usually much larger than trees, I'll leave it up to voters to say which is bigger, although Toshi's is more spammable ;) (because Fana is running on her mana pool while toshiro is relying on his reatsu pool but also the moisture in the air and skies above him) , also this was unreleased, bankai is a 5-10X power up and he mentioned how his bankai is the lowest power difference between shikai and bankai (so maybe a 5X increase in power if you lowball) but the difference is how the quantity of ice is massively larger in bankai, and there's also adult form.

Speed is equalized. Even if you argue that shunpo is a special ability that boosts speed, buffs aren’t allowed either.

Imade, the most versed in bleach in the sub and maybe the site said how "Shunpo is literally you jumping from one spot to another with no travel in between the spots. It has delay based on how fast you are, so it'd be Mach 300 here. Since they are disappearing and reappearing, they'd appear FTE to others." being mach 300 basically confirms he'll be FTE to these people.

Lol at simplifying it to “normal water with force” just so you can turn around my elemental advantage to you. I guess Toshiro is just throwing around normal ice. That water ability totally isn’t a magic attack with all the available mana of a royal, whom have SO much mana. It was able to overpower and seriously injure a really tanky bastard

The feats are more important than your compliments to her, yeah her dragon seems powerful, it has force but like I explained through gerard and Shawlong, his ice, which is much more spammable than her naga dragon, can do similar things and are powerful.

Even then, Salamander wasn’t done and Asta needed to basically thrust through it with anti-magic (so it would negate all its durability). Only after that, did Fana use her healing magic (she used it before Asta hit but continued using healing after and Salamander was still available, just weakened. With heal, the durability is really high)

Good you noticed that she did use healing after the water attack. She couldn't use fire magic with salamander after getting hit by that 1 time water dragon and used mineral magic instead, after that she immediately went to use her healing and after a few seconds, the salamander could use fire again.

I doubt Toshiro could match that water attack with his water control, let alone deal more damage to account for Asta.

moot point after what I explained above

First off, please provide with scans and explain what you meant with “initially”.

Here is when he couldn't go past the vacuum wall and this is when hitsugaya was saying how his normal ice can beat bazz's flames and then proceeded to hit him with a blade of his ice. I say initially as it wasn't until Bazz amped up his flames to yamamoto's levels that his flames started melting his ice.

Second, creating vacuum and removing just oxygen isn’t the same.

I was saying theoretically dude, that Caesar can make an area devoid of gas, but this might not be the case.

Third, equalizing Fana’s magic fire with Bazz’s fire is a weak assumption in itself.

It is, which is why I never assumed it lol, you interpreted me wrong, you were saying how magic fire could not be affected by lack of oxygen cause it's magic and "muh magic is fueled by magic" but I was saying how other magic fire, fueled by magic couldn't go through a vacuum, so it did end up having characteristics of fire.

[u/Captain-Turtle → u/Captain-Turtle]

PART 1 RESPONSE (3/3)

Really irrelevant and a poor argument because her magic fire is obviously not naturally created.

Barely a point and was just trying to push the point that Fana's fire could be nullified through an oxygen free area, but I think I said what I wanted to say in the point above

The reason he’s not catching on fire in explosions and it not doing damage is because he controls oxygen concentration as to not damage him. If it weren’t for that, he’d get damaged. That won’t work with Fana, as I explained before. Here is a scan of Caesar explaining it

..why are you saying he'd get damaged? He's a gas logia, at most he'd get dispersed for being flammable but can just reform somewhere else, maybe even close to where they are and start attacking.

I said that destroying the field is a way to defeat him, not that my characters know his weakness is to destroy the field. However, it is very likely the field will get destroyed as collateral damage once Fana attacks your characters. Maybe Caesar can jump away but that won’t happen with time stop.

Yeah it could be collateral damage when Fana starts shooting her attacks, but Caeser can float and glide (since he was moving while not touching the ground so he won't be drowning, also I doubt that time stop in that exact moment when it's most important as he'd drown (probably not cause he'd just float up after time stop ended) would happen as sticking to the colloseum will mainly only be during the beginning while sora would be charging in.

Ice melts and/or breaks

His ice is stronger I feel like.

Magic Fire

Magic fire that would either be nullified or just disperse him, he's a logia dude, only water and haki will hurt him.

I’m not. I’m just stating the ways I can fight him.

Sure, it just seemed like he couldn't and wanted to point it out.

The explosion was in the immediate area of Luffy as well and he dodged it while being held by slimes as well. Luffy might’ve gotten hit once but Luffy is also slower than the 300 mach. Using google, you can see the speed of an explosion is much slower than 300 mach.

Scans of slimes significantly slowing someone down? And I already said how the explosions could be dodged, just said after that that explosions that pop up right in your face can be able to tag people

[u/Captain-Turtle → u/Captain-Turtle]

PART 2 RESPONSE (1/2)

I don’t think he can just make the air around them into poisonous air. He throws poison gas at Luffy iirc.

Wrong again my dude, he had to make a handsign and then all the gas around luffy turned to poison gas. So it'd be easy to tag with his mach 300 reactions.

Otherwise, Esuna would clear this one for sure

scan of removing poison and this is only for sora (even then it would affect him which would open him up to other attacks), what about hakuryuu and fana? They'd be poisoned.

No, that’s PIS from most characters. Here is Luffy escaping it and it doesn’t look like it’s a big range

Yeah it's close range and escapable, albeit difficult. But caesar can move, hence the oxygen field can move with him, it was the fact that luffy had haki that he would have defeated Caesar at that point by KO'ing him.

All of this tells me nothing on how strong it is. Show me how strong is the dc of these abilities he blocked.

That was the first time he's ever done an energy blast, I'm saying how it's done by the strongest magician in the world that implies it's impressive, world filled with people who could casually make a mountain sized explosion (laxus dropping a small bolt at the ground and causing a large explosion) and whatnot.

Repel literally means to send or force back something. If it doesn’t do that, then what you’re trying to say is it’s a shield. The light magic wasn’t “repelled” either.

Repel: drive or force (an attack or attacker) back or away. Reflect: (of a surface or body) throw back (heat, light, or sound) without absorbing it.

Different. These attacks weren't thrown back, Erza's sword was repelled back as was the light monsters. What do you think happened to the monsters made out of light then?

How big is the tower of heaven? Doesn’t look like much dc to me.

I'd say it's pretty big, as you can see the towers and domes under it being actual buildings and the main tower...towering over them It was a pretty large attack.

How durable are they and how much damage?

he hit cobra and midnighter, cobra fought a ground dragon that could casually swipe and create multi-city block DC and he wasn't much damaged by that at the end, and he also hit midnighter who has reflector magic (that works on energy beams as well, was able to reflect erza's 200 swords attack easily and reflect large buildings and shot them out) but chariot still did a lot of damage on him and sema incapped him.

Black holes in manga aren’t generally the same as real black holes. If it was, everyone there should’ve gotten instantly sucked in unless they’re FTL. Provide scans and context to how it needs to be set up.

Won't cause it's late, fuck you, he needs too much prep time to set it up.

I just checked. That’s a very heavy character statement reliant feat

Yeah, but why would erza and jellal lie? They both could tell the tower would be destroyed so it seems like a fine claim.

for such a supposedly strong ability, it was never attempted again.

I don't write the story.

This seems pretty strong and makes me doubt if it’s even in tier. Nevertheless, from what I saw, it does actually require a longer casting time than you implied so Jellal has to rely on teammates to defend him, but they won’t be able to defend him from some of Sora’s magic that can’t be blocked,

Huh, you seemed to have interpreted the entire scene wrong. There was barely any prep time needed, he just had to get to the stance and the meteor came falling down.

and the attack would also end up hitting everyone on the field as well. If that happens, Sora can just reflect the damage from himself to be the last one standing.

Idk why you said that considering Jellal and his ally who went with him were not damaged by that attack, if it was a suicidal attack that would beat him too I'd mention it lol. Also on Sora reflecting, re-iterating to tell you to show scans of him reflecting against attacks that overwhelm him.

So, he’s unquantifiably stronger. Doesn’t say much. If he has better feats or reliable scaling to how much stronger he is, we can use that.

Yes he's stronger so you could expect his attacks he did in the beginning of the series to be better.

In the same scan I linked and you’re referring to, Yunan says it’s bacteria from the dark continent as well. Flora can also be used to describe bacteria (source: Wikipedia). The ability Hakuryuu was using there is also the one he always uses when using bacteria/fungi.

you could have made a good point there, but I ended up searching on the raws for that chapter and the direct translation was "Bacterial attack of the dark continent. Were you able to control plants of Almatellan too?"

Plants aka can be burned :)

I didn’t. I agreed they come from the same source so it would be possible to freeze them. However, they’re virtually unlimited in supply.

Why are you saying unlimited in supply? He has limited magoi (4 out of 5 in the databooks) and has it been said he can recreate specific plants from a region? They'd just be burned or froze anyways.

That ability was something Toshiro and his vice captain had to practice for. The only reason the vacuum was created in the ice was because she disabled her shikai ashes, thus leaving a vacuum inside. Caesar can’t just make the air disappear inside the ice.

Theoretical and not a huge point.

No, I just don’t believe the fight would last long enough for Toshiro to stall. Plus, you didn’t give me much context for most of this stuff. I see an attack hitting Toshiro but idk how strong that attack is. I see he created a barrier, nothing shown to how strong it is. Used his wings to protect him, no clue how strong was the attack it protected him from, etc. Telling me he has xxx ability isn’t enough, please tell me how strong these abilities are (this is the same issue with Jellal).

I mean he hasn't done much of these for long, he used them at Bazz when he was going Yama level flames so it was basically useless, although for the weaved ice wall you could say it's pretty strong since it's condensed, I talked about how strong his ice is normally so you can guess that making walls of ice or something can be good. Tier's cero was multi-city block DC

Why would you think that? It is impossible to tell what Sora would use first in-character since it’s a game.

Based on his attitude and what other kingdom hearts fans have said on him, he isn't like Riku to abuse his power, he's not smart with them and fights more on feelings and rashness in-character.

Hakuryuu is said to have more than average magoi and is proficient at magoi manipulation, which makes djinn equips much easier. It’s usually after they use Extreme Magic that they feel completely drained, unless you’re Muu. Idk what you mean by Sora too. Sora regens his MP and has huge stamina fighting an army of 1000 heartless on his own.

Sinbad has a lot of magoi too, more than Hakuryuu but it took 4 djinn equips to make him lose his magoi reserves, out of all these characters, he most likely has the lowest time limit.

Fana usually starts with Salamander’s breath and Sora has no requisite to what he starts with. I agree Hakuryuu might not start immediately with his bacteria though albeit he has no other option in this scenario.

When Fana summons Salamander she'd use the breath, Sora would use normal abilities and sure Hakuryuu might not be able to have no other option, but he can't tell that immediately, he'd use his spear and go for a melee attack, then after a while would bring out his arrows if he survives the counter-attack.

needs some sort of prep

barely, Tier went into ressureaction and immediately went and cut Toshiro in half, he was saving it for a good moment and he did.

Shunpo isn’t available

yes it is

You seem to not realise what counterattack means. They’d be done before a counterattack is possible, which is after the time stop.

Gonna ignore this point for now and would address it later

They all showed some sort of personality and character. Either way, they weren’t the only people he killed. For example, Clayton (tarazan) and Shan Yu (Mulan).

Nobodies were evil in personality, I didn't mean they were emotionless robots, Axel who showed some compassion lived and even the nobodies that died sort of forced themselves into that position, like Sora didn't have to go out of their way to kill them, he sort of had no options not to. And considering those two, Clayton's doesn't count, as Clayton just got screwed over by misuse of the powers he was trying to control while having no idea what he was doing. And Shan Yu was beyond evil, the characters he's facing here are normal in personality while Caesar can come off as scum, but not reprehensible to the level of Shan Yu, killing someone who seems like evil incarnate isn't enough reason to assume he'd be fine with killing normal people, also it's questionable if he was dead or not, in the manga zigbar killed him and in the game he just looks knocked out.

With this logic, he doesn’t use any abilities since he never has proper fights in cutscenes.

Never said that, just said that at the most crucial time, when all 3 of them are together, he wouldn't use it.

I can concede that he won’t start with time stop if that makes things more fair for you but would use it after a short while. Saying he’d never use it is stupid though. There aren’t any full cutscene fights and Sora never uses magic in cut scenes to begin with. Saying “your character does nothing in this entire fight because he has no cutscene fights” is not something someone should be arguing. If by abuse you mean spam, I was never even gonna bring that up. If you just mean he won’t use his strong abilities, then lol. There is no proof he wouldn’t use his strong abilities, that’s just an assumption made to fit your case.

[u/Captain-Turtle → u/Captain-Turtle]

PART 2 RESPONSE (2/2)

Wrongly interpreted my comment again, he'd use stronger abilities but just not abuse them or use the time stop when it's most important, as I said above.

Sora charging in when they have an only long range user like Fana is illogical as well.

Sora being illogical makes sense, plus he wouldn't know about Fana being long ranged.

the way you make it sound is like Sora won’t even do anything but hold my team back. I doubt even her teammates would stop Fana, since she’s crazy.

Won't say he'd stop her, just said it's plausible he'd try to and that could hold the team back and it is for the exact reason that Fana is crazy he'd try to calm her down.

You didn’t provide a proper plans. You just said, “Toshiro insta freezes and if that doesn’t work, here are my character’s abilities”. What I did differently was show what my characters can do first then said my plan.

I didn't provide a plan because the series of events that would cause the plan to happen is low, these aren't prep battles and these characters don't know each other and work like batman and robin. I said some potential events and then said how in general my characters would beat yours and how their abilities are better, aka have more chances to win.

[u/Captain-Turtle → u/Captain-Turtle]

PART 3 RESPONSE

Hakuryuu starts by trying to mind control via illusions/memory manipulation

Hakuryuu's range is 10m, which is pretty low and offers up the enemy to freeze, poison, illusions of their own, sleep, oxygen deprive them, blown with flames etc. Hakuryuu's range is much lower so going close to those characters is a bad idea. Opening up with illusions is a plausible thing for him to do but I feel like those illusions won't even work, he said bellial can show illusions and rewrite memories after 6 days but like, he knows nothing about these characters, he can't write lies in their minds if he doesn't know what happened to them. He's never been shown to use normal illusions like generating monsters or something like that, plus the people who have been shown being put under illusions have shown some resistance and know that they're false, also alladin shot a fireball between them which broke the illusion, which means he either needs to be concentrating or magic inbetween the characters can dispel it. Which is probable for jellal to do as he has instant magic blasts and homing stars. Even hitting him with an explosion can KO him. Jellal has illusions as well so he could have some resistance to illusions, he's been hit with visual illusions and could break out of them, the other 2 characters have no illusion feats, but these aren't instant OP illusions like itachi where people don't even know they'd be in an illusion.

If we assume Sora charges in, as you very much want to assume

not want to, it's a probable action that only you seem to not be on board with.

his physical attacks are multi-building/pillar attacks so he can maybe do something to Jellal if he hits him (depends on what feats that shield has which are still unclear)

By multi-building do you mean when he was cutting buildings in half in succession? That's not multi-building dude, if one slice can cut multiple buildings, then that is a multi-building attack. Jellal is really durable, he caught the poison punch of Cobra who matched Natsu in strength (which is multi-city block) and in recent arcs the dude one shot zero who only lost to rebuke flame Natsu (a massive power up), which was on the same level of etherion natsu and could destroy the entire the entire tower of heaven with a punch. Also I'd argue his fire durability is insane since he can withstand punches from natsu with ease. If you see the Oracian Sies fight he tanked all their attacks (multiple punches from cobra and co.) and even took on midnighter's reflect which could cut multiple buildings.

then after the dash use firaga, a common combo to do after charging

what is firaga, if he actually does use this and it is a common combo it'll make sense for him to use it here.

Also, Sora has short range teleportation so this entire exchange can be done by surprising your team

that's not charging in..

and it's being smart about his power which is unlike him

If he is met with attacks before he could hit them, he reflects whatever they shoot at him and it would blow back on their face

Like I said before, show attack that cover his entire body that he could reflect, and he couldn't reflect the air around him being poison or oxygen deprived, the oxygen deprivation is extremely common of Caesar to do so he could just use that and KO him. And Jellal can block all his attacks with a barrier or repel his blocks or magic attacks and he even has a reflect of his own and can even make him go to sleep or put him under an illusion and toshiro can outright freeze him entirely.

Hakuryuu would charge in after him after activating Zagan. His spear attacks can create decent sized craters (and this was he was only half equipped and first djinn fight)

Those attacks look too low level.

one hit would cause internal damage too via magoi manipulation

I doubt he can use internal attacks, just cause he's been taught magoi manipulation doesn't mean he'd know all it's abilities. Naruto and Neji both know about chakra control, but only Neji can use chakra in his palms to attack innards. Knowing doesn't mean mastering.

Every slash he makes could create acidic bacteria monsters

yeah but they seem easy to deal with for being just plants. The DC is on a lower level compared to what these other guys can do.

but will try to poison them. They’ll dodge

the dodge feat is questionable but dodging it is not as easy as you think as you thought he threw something that created poison gas when it's actually instantaneous.

and Sora would time stop or Graviga after that. If poison works, Sora uses Esuna first then time stop

there's a chance he could use those, but normally, 1. during team battles you don't make up formulas for them on what to do. 2. You're making up plans when they're upclose while ignoring toshiro 3. You're only accounting for Sora being poisoned since he apparently has an out, while Hakuryuu wouldn't.

I already said the multitude of attack options my guys have , hell Jellal can just punch Hakuryuu in meteor form and he'd be KO'd, since he's physically powerful (punches hurting all Cobra and the speedster from Oracian Sies) and can even stagger Acnologia for a few seconds in his dragon form, acnologia being able to tank (as in no sell) the entire efforts of fairy tail trying to beat him down. What could happen is either jellal attacking with energy beams, toshiro outright freezing or caesar poisoning the area or depriving it of oxygen, jellal and toshi can also fly/shunpo into the air and just shoot range, both in character have been done.

After that, have Fana end it with her attacks along with Hakuryuu’s bacteria decomposition.

The arrows can be blown away fine and fire doesn't affect caesar, sure if they're all timestopped it could work but that's a massive variable that probably won't happen.

If Toshiro attempts a giant ice wave from the get go before Sora dashes in, Fana counters it with Salamander’s Breath,

1. If she even can summon it in time 2. If her fire can be hot enough to counter it.

opening way for Sora and Hakuryuu.

opens way for all 6 of them

If Jellal shoots something, gets reflected by Sora

sure it would, but he won't hit only sora, he has homing stars to throw at all of them, Hakuryuu might intercept one with magoi shield on his hand but the others can hit him, and sora would still get hit with oxygen deprivation and poison.

Caesar either just dodged or cured with Esuna, he’s basically a mild inconvenience this fight.

Caesar is strong, he can poison or oxygen deprive them, also can shoot bunsen burner kamehameha's or explode at their area if they're busy with jellal or toshiro. Also his poison is above magellan which can stop nerves and may as well kill them, Sora might survive if his sensors aren't messed but hakuryuu could go out, also does fana even have feats for durability or does the salamander take on all the damage? If so she could be easy pickings too.

If at any point, Hakuryuu is in trouble, he’ll go into Belial, who can cut away the senses of body parts he hits with his scythe.

I feel all these characters would do a lot of damage up close, jellal can punch him in the face and repel his scythe away, caesar is caesar and toshiro would insta-freeze and shatter him. Toshiro can make people who touch his ice get frozen and could insta freeze them with the area around them

If Fana is in trouble, she’ll go 3rd eye and be more useful but you’re making it harder for me to use Fana because you wanna assume Sora charges in first.

Fana can go 3rd eye easy, if she does, she won't care about Sora's wellbeing and hit at that area anyways.

[u/Mommid → u/Captain-Turtle]

I didn't quote some stuff that were already addressed or I agree with. I was short on time.

PART 1

Ikkaku started dodging before Toshiro even swung his blade

No, we see him hit Yumichika before Toshiro used the ability. Didn’t see him dodge it in time before Toshiro swung and that’s the reason he got hit.

Tagging tier, who could fight with hiyori, lisa and hiyori

Tier was also getting tagged by just Toshiro. Tagging Shikai Ichigo isn’t that good. I know bankai Ichigo is lightning speed and that was a 5-10x boost of stats from Shikai.

Bazz who could catch up to and surprise attack EoS ichigo

Ichigo wasn’t paying attention as he was trying to get to Yhwach and Bazz b was in vollstandig, which he wasn’t vs Toshiro. Also, Bazz b reacts to

Hell his ice was so fast he flew by gerard and hit him before he could move

Gerrard doesn’t care if he gets hit since his ability works when he gets hit

might end up damaging hakuryuu

They know basic knowledge about their team according to the host of tourney. She won’t go high enough to damage him badly.

not completely sure if Fana can even melt his ice. Bazz was getting froze by his ice and had to go to the level of yamamoto's shikai before he could start melting it,

That was Toshiro using his vacuum ice that he created with his vice-captain. In the viz translation it didn’t say “vacuum” but in Japanese, it’s there. So, you’re scaling all the heat resistance of Toshiro’s ice to his vacuum ice, which isn’t available. His shikai ice before that was implied to be easily melt by Bazz. Also, Bazz fire is comparable to Yamamoto in Shikai’s attack that was used against him, which is still pretty hot but Fana’s aura can also get high enough to reduce people to cinders P.S. Yama vaporizing that Sternritter was when he was bloodlusted because of his vice-captain.

first time we see fana she didn’t have salamander

You’re showing a pic of her back while she’s wearing a heavy coat. Sure enough, we see a proper picture of her soon after and here it is on her shoulder

This is in-character, she won't control anything.

In character, she won’t hurt her team mates and she wasn’t always releasing heat at that level.

she’d have to increase her heat by a lot to get out

She’ll increase by however much required to get her and her teammates out. They’re covered in ice; they won’t feel the force of the raw heat either.

skin didn't even melt lol,

Yep, almost vaporized would be better

Show scans

It’s not scans :p Meteor one is tough to find him getting hit by it but here is where it’s from. He can take a few hits of them (clearly coming from the sky btw)

his ice durability seems bad

He gets fully frozen by insta-freeze and he gets out it by force. What are you basing his ice durability on?

fodder nobodies taking away 1/10th of his health

Arguing how much damage fodder do in game is stupid. It’s not a story, it’s a game. Things do different amount of damage depending on level. Monsters scale up as you go to higher levels. I’m not doing calcs of how much damage exactly things do

floor didn’t turn to lava lol, he just used heat magic on the floor and the floor turned hot

I said it’s something akin to lava. Lava is molten rock and that floor looked molten to me. The floor afterwards turns fine because Sora clears it since he has light attribute.

Why are they named different

Because they’re not the same thing. Curaga is massive party heal and Aeroga is damage reduction.

poison, oxygen deficiency, frozen

Poison dealt with Esuna while other 2 will have to be dodged or melted.

Amon went, he was hitting him with Amon’s sword, not his EM

Amon didn’t go away, Alibaba changed it’s form to a phoenix for a charge. It was still the EM.

The range of that defense is really low though

I agree, but I’m bringing it up for reference that he has defenses.

Which won't happen unless he did it in the beginning

As long as your team are somewhat close to each other, it will hit them.

Human hakuryuu is just a street-tier with some plant arrows

And mental attacks ;)

toshiro (as you saw by my first scan) can keep up with the rest of them fine.

Toshiro still has to go shikai tho. Your first scan has him using ice wave thing, that’s not applicable without shikai afaik.

does Fana have any durability feats on her own?

She has heals, giant gem shields and can make Salamander’s fire and heat aura surround her. Otherwise, no real durability feats. She could theoretically be able to create a Gem armour just like Mars though. Those gems are pretty tough.

shawlong's entire body

Toshiro hit him with his sword in that one. I can agree that his ice is good but I’m still convinced that it’s not going to be the determining factor in beating my team with Fana in it countering.

Show that (attacks that surround Sora that get reflected/blocked)

Idk what exactly you want me to show you. It’s a 360-degree barrier that reflects. If attacks come from all around him while the barrier is up, they will all get reflected/blocked. Like here a bunch of attacks coming straight at him from all directions or this (Just in case you didn’t know, Sora’s reflect can reflect most projectiles but big attacks like this get blocked and reflect the damage in explosions around Sora, that’s what I referred to attacks overwhelming him getting reflected)

Has that fire done anything impressive? Seems normal.

Vaporising these water monsters pretty much instantly. I don’t know about working while frozen but we’ll just assume it won’t

Not really since Sora was just frozen externally and could break out, while ikakku's leg, if the ice broke, would break with it, same with Shawlong, Luppi and Mayuri.

There are characters that break out of Toshiro’s ice, while some don’t. Sora should be able to break.

he's fine using it in shikai, but he was able to only tag Tier in it

He never used hyoten hyakkaso in shikai afaik. It’s implied he used the atmosphere manipulation in Shikai, Tensō Jūrin, when he fought vs Gin and he said he couldn’t control it well back then either and warned Kira.

Wonderweiss had to get her out.

yep, mb. Wiki is spreading alternative facts.

I'm the one who pointed it out that his ice has varying strength with the technique

We were talking about my characters breaking out of the ice and you brought this to show that his ice could be stronger. If you weren’t trying to imply scaling, then it was an out of place mention of the ability.

Gerard was trying to punch the ground (aka was moving in high-speed movement) and got froze

Attacking where the enemy is for sure going to move isn’t really a speed feat. He knew Gerrard is attacking the ground.

water tagged kira and was so cold it started freezing.

That’s not how it works. Water doesn’t magically get colder when it touches u unless you cool it, which Toshiro does.

all water in the atmosphere is his weapon, and he can also create it on his own too

Water in the atmosphere is his weapon if he uses Tenso Jurin, which he doesn’t like using in Bankai. If water is always his weapon, he wouldn’t have a special ability that gives him control of water. The time he used it vs Gin was also implied to be using Tenso Jurin. Also, never saw him create his own water and he never said he can.

He can still use those sources without using hyokken

Hyokken isn’t the part that he doesn’t like using, it’s Tenso Jurin. He told Kira to get away because he might kill him by accident and this time he told Tier he dislikes using it in Bankai because it’s even more difficult to control.

buildings are usually much larger than trees

That’s a shit ton of trees to scale to Fana

bankai is a 5-10X power up

The multiplier is irrelevant because, as you said, Toshiro himself said the major difference is just the amount of ice he can create.

Shunpo is literally you jumping from one spot to another with no travel in between the spots. It has delay based on how fast you are

So, you say with no travel between spots (basically saying it’s like short range teleportation) then say has delay based on speed. Do you see the contradiction? If it was actually short range teleportation, you wouldn’t have people being faster at Shunpo since it all happens with no travel time. Shunpo is how fast one can get from point A to point B in the least number of steps thus known as Flash Step. If you argue that it’s not short range teleportation and it’s just increasing speed through footwork, buffs aren’t allowed in tourney. If imade doesn’t think so then I’m at disagreement with him too. No offense but him being a bigger fan doesn’t mean he’s always right.

The feats are more important than your compliments to her, yeah her dragon seems powerful, it has force but like I explained through gerard and Shawlong, his ice, which is much more spammable than her naga dragon, can do similar things and are powerful.

You were arguing Toshiro’s water with when I brought up the water dragon. You were implying that since Fana was damaged by that water, Toshiro can do the same but Toshiro has no equal damage with water. His ice gets melted.

moot point after what I explained above

No, we were arguing water with that point and u suddenly changed to ice. Ice vs fire arguments happened way earlier.

You were saying how magic fire could not be affected by lack of oxygen cause it's magic and "muh magic is fueled by magic" but I was saying how other magic fire, fueled by magic couldn't go through a vacuum, so it did end up having characteristics of fire.

Wait..you think Bazz couldn’t go through vacuum? What he couldn’t do was go through the ice walls strengthened by presence of vacuum. His fire never even attempted to go through vacuum.

[u/Mommid → u/Mommid]

PART 2

why are you saying he'd get damaged?

His elemental weakness was clearly shown to be fire through Usopp attacking him but he gets around it by controlling oxygen.

he's a logia dude, only water and haki will hurt him.

What is Enel? What is Crocodile?

Scans of slimes significantly slowing someone down?

They were straight up covering him. Doesn’t require an explanation

he had to make a handsign

This, to me, looks like he was throwing it. It also goes against logia rules to create their element from a distance. Anime also had him throw it at people (not saying anime means it’s 100% correct but it’s a source)

this is only for sora

Esuna works for party. I don’t have vid of it removing poison because it’s impossible to find such specific things. Poison was a negative status effect in DDD, which Esuna was available in.

hence the oxygen field can move with him…luffy had haki that he would have defeated Caesar at that point by KO'ing him

Nothing implies that this is possible. You’re just assuming. Luffy tried punching him while he was in the field and Caesar just dodged so haki point is moot.

world filled with people who could casually make a mountain sized explosion

Fairy Tail doesn’t have a mountain busting feat except for achnologia while in dragon form.

It was a pretty large attack.

I can see that now.

cobra fought a ground dragon that could casually swipe and create multi-city block DC and he wasn't much damaged by that at the end,

That’s good durability. Would’ve liked to see scans though but w/e

he also hit midnighter who has reflector magic

You didn’t say what’s his durability, just that he has reflection magic which isn’t related to his durability.

There was barely any prep time needed

has a set up and takes a while for meteor to drop

Bacterial attack of the dark continent. Were you able to control plants of Almatellan too?"

Literally says bacterial attack right there. If he says “were you able to control plants of alma torran too” then that means Yunan was asking if he can control the plants too.

Why are you saying unlimited in supply? He has limited magoi

Just meant unlimited “ammo” and it doesn’t require much magoi for the bacterial attacks since he’s just putting some magoi and controlling them with magoi manipulation.

weaved ice wall you could say it's pretty strong since it's condensed

Got melted so it’s not a good measure

Tier's cero was multi-city block DC

That’s good but it broke his wings. Even though he could reform them, it leaves an opening.

fights more on feelings and rashness in-character.

Again, we literally don’t know how he fights. From reaction commands, that doesn’t seem to be the case. It’s fast thinking and using environment to his advantage.

Sinbad has a lot of magoi too, more than Hakuryuu but it took 4 djinn equips to make him lose his magoi reserves, out of all these characters, he most likely has the lowest time limit

Sinbad has 5/5 and Hakuryuu has 4/5 according to databook. I’m not saying he’s gonna keep fighting for hours but it will be enough.

When Fana summons Salamander she'd use the breath, Sora would use normal abilities and sure Hakuryuu might not be able to have no other option, but he can't tell that immediately, he'd use his spear and go for a melee attack, then after a while would bring out his arrows if he survives the counter-attack.

They have knowledge of what their team can do. It’s not all on the spot so basic teamwork is implied.

Sora didn't have to go out of their way to kill them

I never said Sora is bloodlusted but he would kill if it comes to it.

Sora being illogical makes sense, plus he wouldn't know about Fana being long ranged.

No, it wouldn’t make sense to me since in the final fight vs Xemnas, him and Riku split jobs to fight efficiently and they do have knowledge on team members.

I didn't provide a plan because the series of events that would cause the plan to happen is low

You basically kept bugging me to make a plan now you don’t like it.

these characters don't know each othe

They do, per tourney rules, have basic knowledge

Hakuryuu's range is 10m

The field they start in doesn’t look larger. Dressrosa colosseum.

I feel like those illusions won't even work, he said bellial can show illusions and rewrite memories after 6 days

The illusions work in incapping the characters. It would take 6 days to completely brain wash them but that’s not what I was aiming for, I said just incap.

he knows nothing about these characters, he can't write lies in their minds if he doesn't know what happened to them

He used this power on an army. I doubt he knows every one of them personally.

 plus the people who have been shown being put under illusions have shown some resistance and know that they're false

Again, they just show resistance because they’re incapped but they can’t break out without mental resistance. They also don’t know it’s false unless you have mental resistance like Aladdin.

 alladin shot a fireball between them which broke the illusion

Wrong, Aladdin just had resistance to it through borg then flew with Alibaba out of range.

visual illusions and could break out of them

If it’s just illusions through eye sight, that’s not gonna work.

what is firaga

The fire that surrounds him and vaporizes water monsters almost instantly

it's being smart about his power which is unlike him

Sora uses his short range teleportation often vs Xigbar and some other characters, It’s not OoC

I doubt he can use internal attacks

He’s shown to be able to insert magoi into objects.

making up plans when they're upclose while ignoring toshiro

No, I said Sora reflects if they react to him and if Toshiro tries something from the get go, Fana counters.

even stagger Acnologia for a few seconds in his dragon form

I wouldn’t even call that staggering and you’re overestimating it to few seconds.

Hakuryuu might intercept one with magoi shield on his hand

Or he can just hit them with his spear covered in magoi, which is constant covered in magoi.

Also his poison is above magellan

Where did u even get that? Luffy with resistance to Magellan was completely resistant to Caesar.

jellal can punch him in the face and repel his scythe 

First, why are u assuming Jellal just straight up hits first with no reaction from Hakuryuu? It’s speed equalized. Second, scythe ignores durability

 Toshiro can make people who touch his ice get frozen and could insta freeze them with the area around them

Ignore durability so he’s not actually touching toshiro

she won't care about Sora's wellbeing and hit at that area anyways.

I already explained she cares about teammates and only bloodlusted towards enemies