Why are you acting like this fight was a stomp? Yeah Natsu can replenish himself and power up from Ace's flames but he really had no way to truly harm Ace due to his intangibility (idk why people think Ace would be stupid enough to just let himself get swallowed). ScrewAttack took a big leap in assuming that lightning can damage Ace (not saying it's impossible but there's really nothing pointing to it either)
Ace really only lost due to the fact he has basically no feats whatsoever other than his endurance, while Natsu has ridiculous strength and speed feats that give him a big advantage in that regard.
This matchup isn't even in the same ballpark as Flash vs Quicksilver or even Snake vs Sam Fisher in terms of stomps
Unlike someone like Crocodile, who can turn into his element reflexively, Ace needs to be able to react, and Natsu is much faster than him, or at least had way more opportunities to demonstrate his speed. (plus, if Ace did change into his element, it would give Natsu the option of eating Ace)
What suggests that Ace needs to react? Are you judging off the RT (it says that, and I find that questionable)? I don't think anything suggests Ace is atypical as a Logia and can't automatically turn into flames to dodge.
While Natsu probably has better concrete feats for speed, I disagree with the assertion that he's straight up faster. Ace has a decent amount of scaling from characters who do have good speed feats. At the very least, the idea that Natsu could speedblitz Ace to hit him with lightning is laughable.
Finally, Natsu being able to eat the fire Ace turns into doesn't add up. Ace can exert control over his fire, and I have yet to see anything to suggest Natsu could supersede that control.
Luffy was able to hit Smoker in Alabasta because he caught Smoker off-guard (edit - he also hit Ace at the same time, in chapter 158), and Ace got his Devil Fruit fairly recently (somewhere in the three years before Luffy set out). Logia users turning intangible isn't automatic; it seems to take a lot of practice or having absurd Observation Haki like Enel does.
I don't know much about specific feats, so I can't comment on how scaling Ace to other characters would pan out. I just figure that Natsu gets stronger from Ace's fire attacks, and Ace didn't demonstrate much in the way of fighting without his Devil Fruit (he only demonstrated a single use of Conqueror's Haki, unconsciously and when he was a kid, and showed no signs of knowing the other two), so it didn't seem like there's much that Ace could do here.
Ace has fighting feats as he was a pirate for a long time even getting so fast as joining white beards crew prior to getting the flame flame fruit. I believe he was normal while fighting jinbei as well.
but that skews it ridiculously in favor of those who are main characters. We have no choice to use logic to scale people logically when they don't have enough screen time.
It seems like that would become the question of where we stop. Do we assume that Ace could use haki in the present day when he only demonstrated a single unconscious use of it? Do we assume that he's stronger than people like Big Mom's Sweet Commanders because he was on Whitebeard's crew, even if he didn't demonstrate that level of strength? (maybe he has; this isn't something that I've looked too deeply into)
There's no reason to believe that Ace wasn't going all out against Blackbeard. Even if he couldn't use his Devil Fruit thanks to Blackbeard's Devil Fruit, it still gives us something to work with as far as things like speed, durability, and his fighting ability without his powers are concerned.
Well he has two devil fruit powers for one thing. We don't know what the dark dark fruit can do but it's already shown to be extremely powerful beyond any other fruit we've seen. Its enough to immediately put him on the level on the Yonko.
i dont think it does though. is there any logia in one piece history that has had trouble becoming intangible? hell im pretty sure sabo figured it out almost instantly. logia fruits are canonically the easiest fruit to use after all (at least i remember reading that)
They don't have problems with becoming intangible, but doing so automatically (without thinking or reacting to it) seems to take practice. Ace doesn't have that, as demonstrated here, here, and here.
however i also disagree with that statement as well, thats literally the only time thats ever happened in one piece and it was a gag at that. Smoker should be very well trained in his devil fruit too since hes both a marine and of captain rank in that scene. i think its an outlier imo
True, but in Smoker's case, he spent most of his time in the East Blue dealing with pirates who would go to Logue Town (as opposed to someone like Crocodile, who spent his time on the Grand Line and was implied to be a rival/enemy of Whitebeard). The biggest active threat was Don Krieg, so he wouldn't have pushed himself, and Ace would have only gotten his Devil Fruit a year or two before the present day.
i mean that might be true had he not been a marine, i imagine the moment that a marine gets a devil fruit they are trained by someone to use it. iirc that Z guy from the movie actually existed and actually did train all the admirals in using their devil fruits, its just that the events of the actual movie didnt happen. i just cant see the military, especially one as huge as One Piece's world government, to see that one of their soldiers acquired a powerful devil fruit and was like "oh cool i guess". Smoker had to have been trained by some vice admiral or something to use his devil fruit.
has the SRS every had any topic like this? seems like something that would be asked there
edit: i mean this argument aside i think the idea that logias arnt auto intangible or that it has anything to do with their reflexes is kinda farfetched
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u/OolongmenRamen May 03 '17 edited May 03 '17
Why are you acting like this fight was a stomp? Yeah Natsu can replenish himself and power up from Ace's flames but he really had no way to truly harm Ace due to his intangibility (idk why people think Ace would be stupid enough to just let himself get swallowed). ScrewAttack took a big leap in assuming that lightning can damage Ace (not saying it's impossible but there's really nothing pointing to it either)
Ace really only lost due to the fact he has basically no feats whatsoever other than his endurance, while Natsu has ridiculous strength and speed feats that give him a big advantage in that regard.
This matchup isn't even in the same ballpark as Flash vs Quicksilver or even Snake vs Sam Fisher in terms of stomps