r/whowouldwin • u/That_guy_why ​ • May 06 '17

Special The Great Debate Tournament Round 2

Current Brackets

Alright I think you guys got the gist of how things go down now, but the last rounds thread has everything in one spot if you don't remember, and feel free to ask for clarifications if you need to. Now, onto the actual decision.

The Coin Flip

And the coin has decided...

https://gfycat.com/AnotherDiscreteGourami

Heads, ergo

The match will be a full, 3v3 Team Match

Debate Ends on Tuesday, May 9th, at 11:59 PM EST

18 Upvotes

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u/Verlux ​ May 09 '17

KILLER FROST REBUTTAL 2: FROSTY BOOGALOO

Which, as stated in the advantages, she should be able to get if somebody is distracted by Mandarin or Saber.

I really severely doubt her tagging anyone on my team being a reality; she won't make it through multi-block level shockwaves, or >500 mph tornadoes, and through a field of icy blades....and that's all assuming she somehow isn't affected by Hanfeng's illusions.

For the blocking point, she was making constructs to block Cyborg unamped, so I think its reasonable to say that she could at least block some of it

This I can agree to, as it doesn't fully diminish my point.

However, she could also just tell Mandarin to give her heat from Incandescence, which is Hot enough to harm Iron Man through his armor, so that could sustain her well enough to be a massive threat and start blocking some of the attacks

Frost has been harmed by sufficient heat blasts though (see: any fight with Firestorm) so per the rules Mandarin can not target her with Incandescence; and even if he could, Xuan Feng's air manipulation would most likely outright just negate any flames, since the air is the medium via which the fire would try to reach Frost and that medium would be getting blasted away constantly.

This is my b, I had forgotten about some of this, and your arguement read like you were implying Killer Frost couldn't use her powers inside the frost aura because there literally isn't heat inside of it. So she would be unable to use her powers inside the Frost Aura, yes, but as stated above this is easily fixed by Mandarin supplying her with heat.

I think it to be outright wistful thinking to believe Mandarin can even affect her, as stated above. Evidence shows us she literally will not ever gain power in this fight unless a teammate were to sacrifice themselves to her, which the rules preclude.

ADVANTAGE ONE RETORT

I honestly have nothing to rebut here; we seem to be in agreement that Tian Wu could negate most ranged attacks levied against him, and as such remains a lethal threat.

ADVANTAGE TWO REPARTEE

Are there scans for him using it to create illusions on that level? All I remember him using it for is concealing his own presence, and there isn't anything any fancier than that in the RT

Well, the scans I have already shown showcase the following: Hanfeng's limit break is in of itself the entire area around him, fact. He can manipulate his ice to create refractive illusions, fact. QED, he can use the entire area to create refractive illusions.

The qualm with him not being a rational combatant because he summons his sword is actually an odd one; his Limit Break precludes the use of his actual Silver Flame sword unless he dispels the Limit Break and uses only his sword. The reason it would appear to not be rational is "Well why not just keep freezing your opponent to death?" In the three scenarios he has unsheathed his sword for a final blow, it has been fully rational as I shall delineate:

  1. Against Ah Gou: Ah Gou becomes frozen entirely, and Hanfeng pulls forth his sword to end Ah Gou's life before he can unleash Monochrome; Ah Gou had previously fired soul-seeking cannonballs that can fly around at-will, and the moment Hanfeng went to strike his downed opponent, the cannonballs homed in, ending the battle. He literally had Ah Gou frozen solid and unable to retaliate, thus went for the finishing blow asap; pretty rational.

  2. Against Quan Dao: Hanfeng successfully bests Quan Dao for the majority of their fight, but Quan Dao is so powerful and dense that he can continually shatter out of being frozen. Thus, Hanfeng summons his sword and utilizes his skill to impale Quan Dao center mass, perpetually freezing him since his sword generates the ice of Hell passively and to an insane degree from within his body.

  3. Against Tian Wu, Hanfeng summons his sword and dispels the illusions after Tian Wu uses his Divine Skill for a third time in a row, leaving Tian Wu momentarily weakened and unable to react as quickly as usual, allowing Hanfeng to land a finishing blow....that unfortunately is halted. Hanfeng literally baits Tian Wu into going all out via the illusions, then drops the curtain and goes for a guaranteed win.

In none of these cases is Hanfeng anything but a rational opponent going for a decisive victory with no room for error.

As you mentioned above, a lot of your team's AoE would be limited due to needing to avoid hitting members of your own team

To this point, I actually would disagree to the point you're insinuating how much the battle would be effected by this: Xuan Feng won't be able to use True Void, sure, but Tian Wu has pretty damned good control over his Divine Skill, especially his amped version, so if he uses that it literally just means he is exerting even more influence over the battlefield since it would hold your team suspended mid-air if they're too weak: at best, it means your team is being buffeted by his Divine Skill's pressure constantly until he allows it to explode forth into one of your team.

As for Xuan and Hanfeng, they have absolutely control over the precision of their abilities, and Xuan's tornadoes are hardly 'damaging' so him summoning a stone-ripping tornado behind your team and fucking up their mobility is well within allowable bounds.

Mandarin might throw out an additional attack while doing illusions, but I don't think I'd be willing to put money on it. However, I now also have Killer Frost throwing out relevant attacks, so this is mitigated.

I too doubt it; the Mandarin really is a jobber but he's so goddamn versatile and kudos for picking him as a replacement as a result! But, I do still outright reject the second half of this assertion based on my above rebuttal.

Its a good thing Mandarin's illusions are mental then. If that isn't enough, the ring is able to fool most of the senses of Malekith for a time, so I think they should have no trouble fooling Hanfeng's soul sensing. And Malekith likely only saw through the illusion because he knew what The Liar did, so your team will have no such luxury.

This may actually fool Hanfeng's soul sense, yes; but his soul sensing is innately a soul-based power and I don't recall Liar having any such feats of ensnaring souls in illusion. This gets really iffy even as a rebuttal, however.

To the latter half of this point though: Dark Ones and Gods alike have pretty decent awareness of mental intrusion; here we see a God mentally invade the minds of over 20,000 people simultaneously, with the stronger Gods and Dark Ones immediately noting what is going on and showcasing awareness of mental intrusion, with any sort of outside action causing them to immediately break free of the trance, and one Dark One outright just not being affected after a moment (note: Hanfeng absolutely is aware he's being mentally assaulted and is still able to react, he's the one in the hood near ZongHeng). Based on your own interpretation of the Malekith scan (which I find fair), I honestly believe my team will at least have some modicum of blanket resistance to such illusory assault, with Hanfeng absolutely being able to resist at the very least.

ADVANTAGE THREE RIPOSTE

This is still advantageous for me, since it limits the degree of AoE your team can use. Furthermore, my team still has the overall cohesion advantage, so the point still mostly stands.

I still think my team's AoE efficacy is being undersold; Tian Wu's second form of Divine Skill is fully controllable as we see from his uses of it, and in fact is an insanely useful battlefield control mechanism based on how it would let him blitz anyone on your team and guarantee a point-blank, heavy-hitting Thunderclap to the face. And again, Xuan's wind is a non-damaging ability I contend, thus is fair play. Hanfeng's abilities are arguable, but so long as he focuses all his Frost Aura into your team he should be playing by the rules.

Your team has a better cohesive leader, yes, in the Mandarin; my team has two long-time friends and two respected rivals however, who all know one anothers' abilities inside and out with great insight.

CONCLUSION REJOINDER

Now that I think most of the problems with Killer Frost have been fixed, this is looking like a 7/10 for me

I still vehemently disagree, and will continue to insist, based on tourney rules and feats, that Frost is your largest detractor in this round due to Hanfeng keeping her on ice and my team being untouchable, as well as having way to prevent fire from reaching her via Xuan's aerokinesis.

If Killer Frost is amped on heat, she should be able to reliably freeze any member of your team if she has heat being supplied by The Mandarin, and the illusions and other methods of incap should be enough.

Were she to gain some heat source, this might hold true and would drop my odds to 4 or 5/10. But, my team absolutely has circumstantial evidence indicating illusion resistance of a mental sort is plausible, which doubly knocks against this thought.

I'm giving 3 points of leeway to Mandarin doing some hardcore jobbing, but once the illusions distract one member of your team long enough for them to get hit by something, it should be a pretty easy sweep up on the 2v3.

As harped on enough already, I truly do not see a strong case for this becoming reality.

MY CONCLUSION

I honestly had forgotten there was a single instance of mental resist in the FSJ verse; having gone back through that, and factoring in Tian Wu's enhanced Thunderclap, Hanfeng's control, and Xuan's ability to just outright buffet your team and distract Mandarin, I think it may even go so high as a 9/10 for my team. The Mandarin is powerful but fighting a battle wherein he is solely a support, with only Saber on the offense? He's in a very, very sore position.

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u/GuyOfEvil ​ May 10 '17

Alright, I think pretty much anything else I'd rebut would be pure fluff at this point, so I'm narrowing this down into three key points.

One: Killer Frost

Two: Hanfeng's Illusions

Three: Mandarin's Illusions

Killer Frost

she won't make it through multi-block level shockwaves, or >500 mph tornadoes, and through a field of icy blades

I mentioned something to this effect in the illusions point last go around, but she doesn't necessarily need to. All it takes is for a non AoE attack to go towards an illusion, and Killer Frost gets the split second chance she needs to freeze somebody from range, or if Mandarin decides to restrain either Tian Wu or Hanfeng with a shadow tendril, she can heat drain them. Furthermore, I'm actually unconvinced any members of your team could resist being frozen from range. When fully encased, Firestorm is shown as being unable to break out. So even if she can't get in for a heat drain, I think she could at least restrain a member of your team from a distance, if not incap them outright.

Frost has been harmed by sufficient heat blasts though (see: any fight with Firestorm)

This statement is outright false, and you could easily disprove it by checking any fight between the two. In this fight, Firestorm attacks Killer Frost and she absorbs it no problem. Firestorm instead beats Killer Frost by using his elemental manipulation, doing things such as trapping her in cement, getting rid of all her ice, or even being forced to resort to fucking about with her body. Also, Killer Frost was literally fine while inside of the sun. Even if she can be harmed by some absurd level of heat, its nothing near what the Mandarin is putting out, so it shouldn't be breaking any rules to have him be supplying her heat.

since the air is the medium via which the fire would try to reach Frost

Actually, Mandarin could just Light her on fire directly, and she could then immediately absorb it before the fire was put out.

I think all that sufficiently proves my point. Killer Frost could be supplied heat by Mandarin fast enough for it to not be put out, and the chances of it hurting her are almost none. If you want to try and argue the other way around, that the fire would be inconsequential, keep in mind she normally operates on just the heat of one human body.

Hanfeng's Illusions

He can manipulate his ice to create refractive illusions, fact. QED, he can use the entire area to create refractive illusions.

I'm sort of willing to accept this, however, if he could create actual illusions and not just hide his presence, why doesn't he? I think there are two answers here. One is that he simply can't. This doesn't make sense logically though as you proved above. The second, is that he doesn't. Either because he doesn't know he can, or he's not good enough with his power to create complex illusions. Either option means that in an in-character fight he will not make actually complex illusions. Ergo, the point is moot.

Mandarin's Illusions

I don't feel the need to quote anything you said specifically, since it's all going to come down to what we make of This mental resistance feat.

I'm going to start by saying the only person I think this is potentially relevant to is Hanfeng. Its impossible to scale off of mental resistance feats, and I'd want something more direct showing a God resisting any kind of mental effect.

Now then, onto the actual feat for Hanfeng. I'll accept that he is at least aware of the intrusion, since everyone affected is seemingly aware of the intrusion. What I'm not so sure about is weather or not he's actually resisting it. As far as I understand it, the intrusion is making everybody affected unable to move. The woman using it tells everybody to "Halt their steps" and they do so. the only person who explicitly does not is the Dark One with the club. So, It isn't outside the realm of possibility that he actually was affected by the intrusion, despite being aware of it. Hell, I think its more likely that everybody was aware of it because its source isn't trying to hide it. Everybody is aware that it's coming from an ancient God, and it seems more likely to think it just isn't being concealed than it is to assume every human and dark one has resistances to mental intrusion.

It doesn't really matter though. Even if I assume this is an impressive mental resistance feat, I think the Liar ring is still better. It can make illusions to fool Iron Man, who has built in telepathic resistance, which allows him to resist Red Onslaught. So even if somebody were to assume that the mental resistance scan shown is a feat for Hanfeng and everybody else, it still isn't a resistance feat on the level of what one would need to resist The Liar's Illusions.

Lastly, to quickly talk about why The Liar should be able to circumvent soul sensing, I'd point to the nature of a mental illusion. A mental illusion works because the target thinks an object or person is there when in reality it is not. Ergo, Mandarin should be able to fool Hanfeng's soul sensing, because he makes Hanfeng believe an object is there.

Final Thoughts

My opponent's argument has been based around the fact that Killer Frost will be mostly useless due to being countered by members of his team. However, I believe I have sufficiently proven this will not be the case. Mandarin can supply her heat extremely easily, so she will always have access to it. Plus, with access to heat, she has plenty of shielding options to protect herself from harm. Lastly, her attacks are cold enough to be effective at range. This should serve as sufficient proof that Killer Frost will be pulling her weight in a 3v3.

So, if that falls, look to my team's ability to confuse and distract long enough to get off one of their many, many methods they have to incapacitate or outright kill the other team. If one member of Verlux's team falls here, the sweep up of a 2v3 in my favor should be extremely simple.

Overall, my analysis stands. Killer Frost should keep this relevant enough for my team to be able to pull off a 7/10.

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u/Verlux ​ May 10 '17

KILLER FROST

When fully encased, Firestorm is shown as being unable to break out. So even if she can't get in for a heat drain, I think she could at least restrain a member of your team from a distance, if not incap them outright.

This would be a possibility, considering she has the chance to actually gain enough power for that; further, even if encased in ice, Tian Wu can outright just shatter the ice with his shockwave power, Xuan Feng could more than likely tear it apart considering how strong his formless sword is, and Hanfeng would have to rely on the raw physical prowess of his Frost Strike blades to shatter the ice physically; what that scan shows is Frost's ice being pretty darn heat resilient, not impervious to physicals.

This statement is outright false, and you could easily disprove it by checking any fight between the two.

I actually was mis-remembering a feat of Firestorm blasting through her to incap her via environmental means on this one, you are correct 100%.

This scan, however, of Mandarin setting someone on fire from a 'range' seems iffy; those dudes are right next to the Mandarin and we see the ring flare up (heh), it seems to have transmitted heat via the air to ignite them. While it's not a beam, for sure, it still needs some sort of medium to travel through it does appear.

Even granting the thought that Mandarin can just focus on igniting Frost, that incaps one member of your team to amp another; Mandarin focusing solely on amping Frost gives enough of a timeframe for a Thunderclap or Water spout to be formed then frozen, either of which causes massive enough damage as to incap one or perhaps two members of your team. To get Frost up and running would take time that just would not exist without some extensive preparations due to the nature of my fighters. Even if Mandarin takes one full second to channel his ring and light Frost ablaze to amp her up, that's one full second of a Mach 300 opponent blitzing Mandarin and royally fucking his day up whilst a tornado is instantly spawned and the arena on your team's side is dropped to well below the flash freezing point.

The ultimate point is: she's a liability, not an asset in this scenario, almost solely because of Hanfeng keeping her on ice.

HANFENG'S ILLUSIONS

I'm sort of willing to accept this, however, if he could create actual illusions and not just hide his presence, why doesn't he? I think there are two answers here. One is that he simply can't. This doesn't make sense logically though as you proved above. The second, is that he doesn't. Either because he doesn't know he can, or he's not good enough with his power to create complex illusions. Either option means that in an in-character fight he will not make actually complex illusions. Ergo, the point is moot.

I actually have no clue what you're trying to meaningful dismiss here, the notion that my scans show what my scans show?? Hanfeng manipulates the light to create optical illusions on the battlefield, and the self we see of him 'fighting' is actually an illusion whenever he's in Limit Break. I....don't really know how contentious that is, and as such do not understand how your point is attempting to negate this. He refracts light, hides the true bodies of whomever he chooses within his Limit Break, and only has to reveal himself if he wants to use his sword for a finishing blow.

MANDARIN'S ILLUSIONS

The first thing I want to note is you used two of the same scan as proof here, in this section:

It can make illusions to fool Iron Man, who has built in telepathic resistance, which allows him to resist Red Onslaught

So I've no clue how impressive it is.

Secondly, even if the mental resistance feat does apply solely to Hanfeng, that's about all I would need honestly; the Mandarin would either have to focus on these illusions or in amp'ing Frost from the get-go, one or the other, for him to be effective in this fight; if Hanfeng resists the illusions and Frost is not amped, Frost loses practically all her ability to be useful and Mandarin now has no really effective way of preventing Hanfeng from encasing him in ice due to focusing on the illusions. Mandarin never really utilizes numerous rings in conjunction in-character, recall, so it really does become the option of: Which one are you arguing will be done?

Regardless of which you argue he would most likely do (I personally believe using Incinerate to be the most likely option for him), it leaves a flaw in the strategy that opens a point of attack for my team to incap at least one person.

CLOSING ARGUMENT

  1. Killer Frost is the most contentious part of this match-up: for her to be effective, we have discovered she must rely solely upon The Mandarin amp'ing her with Incandescence; however, to do so he would have to forego shrouding my team in illusion as he would be least wont to do regardless. If Mandarin spends his focus on amp'ing Frost via fire, my opponent's team gains a strong asset yet loses their most versatile one in the same blow due to all my fighters being willing to blitz with some of their strongest abilities right off the bat; Mandarin can either defend himself, be offensive, or be a support here, and feats show us the second choice is honestly the most likely via Lightning, Spin, or Influence most likely.

  2. My team's AoE threatening advantage is massively amplified by the fact that Hanfeng can instantly hide the true bodies of my team within his Limit Break field, making it damned near impossible for them to take meaningful harm whilst freely dishing out damage.

  3. If you haven't noticed, this entire debate has ignored Saber outright; both of us practically patently agree she's a non-factor, meaning it's almost a 3v2 from the get-go. Her speed is enough to keep up with my fighters due to equalization but I doubt she'll deal meaningful damage without Avalon charged up; further, she absolutely does not have the feats to tank being in Frost Aura or crossing Xuan Feng's wind walls/tornadoes. Saber is a non-factor implicitly.

  4. Nobody on Guy's team is going to be able to easily resist Tian Wu's improved Thunderclap, at all, which will freeze them in place and allow him to channel all that destructive fury directly into them, something that would be a damn-near guaranteed KO on any one of his team.

  5. Xuan Feng's Tornadoes would prevent most of Guy's team's maneuverability, and none have the feats to indicate they could tank his Formless Sword if he got offensive; his battlefield control is too strong, and outright BFR'ing them is a 100% in-character option for him that would likely follow up on Tian Wu's improved Thunderclap when they're mid-air. Only Spin can negate this, and we've covered the Mandarin in-depth already: if he goes defensive to counter Xuan Feng, which he must absolutely do to prevent a BFR, he cannot focus on illusions, and cannot focus on amp'ing Frost. He is playing with a very limited chess board here.

  6. Hanfeng, as stated already, grants my team illusions to hide behind, and his Frost Aura slowly whittles away Guy's team whilst robbing Frost of her powerset entirely. Further, he absolutely uses encasing people in ice as a go-to move and is offensive as hell, easily having the physicals to slice apart anyone here.

  7. Adding all these points together ignores the many hypotheticals raised and gets us to the actual point of contention: My team just so happens to possess the mentality and powersets necessary to force solely counterplays and reduce offensive maneuvers from Guy's team, whilst possessing ways of circumventing almost all potential counters or just brute forcing through them: Mandarin must focus on Spin or Xuan BFR's; Frost must get amped however or is useless, so Mandarin has to use two rings already at once; Mandarin must use illusions/Influence for heavy damage or Tian Wu will severely damage everyone on Guy's team. Mandarin must accomplish three separate tasks all at once whilst dealing with three mach 300 blitzing opponents, all whilst in-character. He. Can. Not. The entire match relies on him, and he is found wanting when weighed under this scrutiny.

SUMMATION

No matter what is stated, the ultimate point of contention is point 7 of my closing argument's points, and arguing hypotheticals of what could happen in regards to point 7 is ignoring the fact that the Mandarin has to choose one of three tasks, and whichever he chooses, he still is lacking. Option 1, using Spin, results in Tian Wu and Hanfeng wreaking havoc, Frost getting KO'd, and Mandarin himself somehow having to pull a 1v3 pretty much.

Option 2, Mandarin amps Frost immediately, then Tian Wu's Thunderclap freezes everyone, Xuan Feng Storms them and BFR's whilst they float midair, then Tian Wu guaranteed OHKOs someone else.

Option 3, Mandarin goes immediately for illusions (the most out of character choice but let's roll with it), and Hanfeng resists; he now must focus on the illusions and allow Hanfeng to incap Frost and then try to ensnare everyone in Icy Hell or the illusions were moot. Alternatively, Mandarin goes for heavy damage from the get-go, probably heavily wounds one of my dudes....and then a Thunderclap, or Deity of the Storm, or Icy Hell occurs in retaliation, heavily wounding everyone.

Lose/lose/lose scenario.

My team absolutely wins, and upon further inspection and including the fact that Saber requires too much build-up, this ought to be at least 8/10 if not 9/10 for my squad, with that 2 or 1/10 being a perfect use of illusions from Mandarin followed up by Frost and Saber blitzing Hanfeng 2v1 and him being caught offguard as a result; this is pretty out of character all around however, and unlikely as hell, thus 8 or 9/10.

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u/GuyOfEvil ​ May 10 '17

Alright, I don't think I'm going to have time to respond to everything in the 29 minutes I have left, so I'll keep it quick.

Killer Frost

it seems to have transmitted heat via the air to ignite them. While it's not a beam, for sure, it still needs some sort of medium to travel through it does appear.

Even if we assume its travelling through air, this scan still proves two things. First, that Incandescence does not travel in a beam, and thus would be undetectable, and two, that he can create a large amount of fire in a very short amount of time.

To save me time I won't grab specific quotes, but what that essentially proves is that Mandarin using Incandescence to amp Killer Frost would take pretty much no time at all. Mandarin jobs like a motherfucker to be sure, but I really have trouble accepting that he can't sustain illusions and set Killer Frost on fire at the same time. Plus, the point is moot in the case that he simply opens with illusions of the entire team, so that Hanfeng wouldn't even be able to get Killer Frost into the cold aura in the first place. Due to Killer Frost favoring staying back, I see this as more likely than not.

Tian Wu can outright just shatter the ice with his shockwave power, Xuan Feng could more than likely tear it apart considering how strong his formless sword is, and Hanfeng would have to rely on the raw physical prowess of his Frost Strike blades to shatter the ice physically

Note that Firestorm is also physically restrained in that scan, and seems to be unable to break out with any of his powers. That being the case, It seems like they still couldn't break out of the ice.

Lastly, even if he does have to spend an entire second amping Killer Frost and doing nothing else, its not like he's a total glass jaw. The rings have force fields, which should allow him to tank one hit, and even without, the dude can tank hits from Iron Man. If someone goes in close to try and finish him off, I think it'll take at least one attack to break the force field, at which point he can just immediately freeze or Disintegrate whoever attacked him.

So, I still think Killer Frost is totally fine in this fight. Any amp to her power should be totally trivial to pull off. And as a last point, the entire plan for neutralizing her relies on your whole team collectively realizing they need to keep her inside the frost aura, which I'll accept might happen, but its not like they could tell at a glance that Killer Frost will be weakened by the cold.

Hanfeng's Illusions

To briefly clarify here. My basic argument is that I'm unconvinced Hanfeng could or would do anything with his illusions other than hide himself.

Mandarin's Illusions

My b on the scans, the second one was supposed to be this, which admittedly doesn't show much. Quick context on Red Onslaught, he's Red Skull with Professor X's mind. He's been able to preform mind control on a global scale, so the feat is pretty significant compared to Hanfeng maybe resisting a mental attack.

Conclusion Rebuttals

I'll just respond to one thing quickly here, and put everything else in my conclusion.

this entire debate has ignored Saber outright

Eh, a lot of the major points drifted away from what made Saber useful. To sum it up quickly, she has use as a tank. If she's fighting somebody, they'll have a hard time putting her down through Avalon's passive and active abilities, so she serves as an important distraction or attacking force of her own. Either she can distract somebody long enough for Mandarin or Killer Frost to get a decisive blow, or they'll be so distracted by Mandarin that she herself will be able to get in a decisive blow.

Final Conclusion

I think I'm going to have to lower the score to a 6/10, in case Mandarin actually can't heat up Killer Frost while doing other things, but I still think I have a pretty clear and easy path to victory. First off Killer Frost doesn't have to freeze in a beam. She can freeze the air around somebody cold enough so they can't move and can't break out. This would be an easy incap on Tian Wu, who may be able to break out with shockwaves, or Xuan Feng, who I actually think has no counter to an attack that can come from within his wind wall. After taking down one of those two, its a prett easy clean-up. Saber can focus down one person, looking for an opening for Mandarin or Killer Frost to get a finishing blow in, and Mandarin and Killer Frost can focus down whoever she isn't focusing on.

Overall, I don't think Verlux has perfect answers to everything my team can throw at him, and the easily attainable 2v3 should win me this fight.

2

u/Verlux ​ May 10 '17

Well considering this was posted with 1 minute left in the debate, I'm going to say good luck and good debating as it would be poor etiquette to retort.

Nice debate!!