r/whowouldwin • u/He-Man69 ​ • Aug 22 '17

Special Tournament of Power Finals

Ladies and Gentlemen, this is the moment you've all been waiting for, the Conclusion the the Tournament of Power. We've had some upset victories and crushing defeats along the way, but we're not here to talk about losers. Lets introduce the finalists.

In this corner we have the lean mean insult throwing machine u/tinkerinthekitchen, though we haven't seen them debate much this tournament what we have seen has been a blend of insults and scans, will they be able to make there opponent KOWTOW

to them?

In the next corner we have the undefeated /u/mommid, Mommid has been debating in this tourney ever since the Tribunal post, and was quickly identified as a force to watch out for in this tournament. Mommid has out debated every opponent placed in front of him, will he be able to do the same this time?

by now you know the rules, this round will consist of 5 days of debating and 1 day of voting.

Last but not least we have the match-ups,

they are: Laylin Farlier Vs Aladdin,

Lin Ming Vs Escanor

and Meng Hao Vs Daemon Spade

Good luck, may the best man win

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u/TinkerintheKitchen Aug 26 '17

Alright you silly junior, since you have not posted a characterrant showing the accepted speed of lightning, and I could not find it when I searched, here is a little rant I made that is not allowed on the sub because this senior's sheer presence is enough to collapse any minor subs below 100k subscribers. And so I shall post my resplendent might. Expect this senior's follow up blows soon, this is just a counter to your "lightning isn't as fast as lightning" argument. this senior awaits your published, peer reviewed article on the speed of lightning to counter this.

It seems it's time for this senior to orate on the Dao of Heaven and Earth for silly juniors who do not understand the mechanics of heaven.

let's start off with explaining how lightning works, and by defining lightning. As you can see here, lightning is "the occurrence of a natural electrical discharge of very short duration and high voltage between a cloud and the ground or within a cloud, accompanied by a bright flash and typically also thunder.". Now, onto explaining how it works. Lightning takes multiple steps. First comes the downward leaders. These are paths of ionized air, often branching, but sometimes not, down from an area of high negative charge inside the cloud. These sometimes meet with an upward streamer, another channel of partially ionized air, from an area of high positive charge on the ground. This establishes a connection between the area of high negative charge inside the cloud, and the area of high positive charge in the ground. Please note that this is NOT lightning, as it does not meet the definition. Even though it is a necessary step for lightning to happen, it is not the discharge step, where the massive amounts of negative charge inside the cloud is discharged into the ground. And, while this step does take a large amount of electrical energy, that is dwarfed by the discharge in the next step. However, if someone dodges natural lightning, then nine times out of ten it's going to be them dodging the downward leaders, as the speed of this section is far more reasonable (more on this later).

Now, after this comes the return stroke. This is the stage in which all the negative charge inside the cloud is equalized with the ground. It does this by sending massive amounts of electrons through the channel of ionized air established by the previous step. This stage is both the brightest and loudest of stages, and is the stage that meets the definition of "lightning". After this, there are often multiple other strokes known as re strikes, which are separated from the initial return stroke by a reasonably large period of time, about 40ms. This is why lightning sometimes has a strobe effect, as there are multiple other strikes happening to cause additional light. These strikes are similar in properties to the return stroke

So, how fast does this make lightning? Well, to start with, here's a study published by the Geophysical Research Letters journal finding:

Two independent optical systems, one photographic and the other photoelectric, yielded common recordings for the third and fourth strokes; the respective two-dimensional return stroke propagation speeds were 1.0 vs. 0.93 ×108 m/s for the positive (third) stroke and 1.0 vs. 1.0 ×108 m/s for the fourth stroke
(...)
Photoelectric data only yielded propagation speeds of 1.4, 1.6, 1.2, 1.3, 1.0 and 0.90 × 108 m/s for the first, second and fifth through eighth return strokes, respectively.

And so the return stroke and subsequent following strokes all have approximately the same speed, that being about a third of lightspeed. If you were to approximate this in mach numbers, you'd get about mach 294,000. But how about the speed of the downward leaders? Well, here's a study published in the Journal of Geophysical Research:

the mean final one-dimensional speed was 4.4×105 m/s, the standard deviation was 3.8×105 m/s, and the range was 1.0-14×105 m/s

To put this in mach numbers, the speed of the downward leaders was found to range from about mach 300 to about mach 4100, averaging at mach 1200, with a large amount of deviation within that range. And so let's go with the average here, to say that the speed of the downward headers is about mach 1200.

TL;DR / Conclusions

For a lightning strike to happen, first downward leaders need to connect the ground and the cloud. These downward leaders move at about mach 1200 on average, and don't meet the definition of lightning. Then there is the discharge, or return stroke, where the electrical energy built up in the cloud is discharged down the pathway established before. This discharge moves at about a third of lightspeed, and it fits the definition of lightning. There are often multiple other strikes following this return stroke, all with similar properties to the original strike.

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u/Mommid ​ Aug 26 '17 edited Aug 26 '17

I noticed you're trying to use the return stroke but like I said earlier, only the stepped leader matters. The reason we use the stepped leader is because for the return stroke to actually happen, the stepped leader has to actually hit first. Also, you're trying to say that the definition of lightning is the flash of lightning at the end when lightning hits something (return stroke) and not the actual bolt of lightning (leader), which makes no sense from my PoV.

I see your 1984-87 scientific papers and the value it gives but according to more recent research done in 2010, stepped leader actually accelerates the more distance it travels

The GM of the positive leader speeds increases by about a factor of 10 as they get closer to the ground (i.e. from 104 to 105 m/s).

similar results were shown for negative leader

So unless your character is gonna be flying in lightning form for thousands of meters, we're gonna assume the lowball speed of mach ~300 and even that's being generous as lightning varies so much that it can even be mach ~100 at times.

Here is an accompanying rant regarding this topic

Conclusion

You character transforming into lightning is gonna make him mach ~300 at best.

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u/TinkerintheKitchen Aug 26 '17

Also, you're trying to say that the definition of lightning is the flash of lightning at the end when lightning hits something (return stroke) and not the actual bolt of lightning (leader), which makes no sense from my PoV.

Quickly while I'm writing up the other responses, this is incorrect. My argument is that the stepped leader is not the electrical discharge. Lightning is not a path of ionized air, as you are arguing. While dodging lightning generally means dodging the downward leader for WWW purposes, that does not make the lightning itself anything besides the discharged electricity. My character transforms into a bolt of lightning, using the concept of lightning. Your argument is therefore irrelevant either way, as it must therefore act as the core concept, a discharge of electricity.

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u/TinkerintheKitchen Aug 26 '17

lin Ming vs. Escanor

For this attack to actually hit Escanor, Ling Ming will have to run towards Escanor at mach 500 in order for his weapon throw to reach that speed as well (law of inertia). Without doing so, the weapon will fly at the usual speed that Ling Ming throws his weapons, which is probably lower than mach 500.

If he can do this with a thrown weapon, which is explicitly weaker than if you were to hold the weapon itself, then this is what he can do when he uses all of his physical strength. Minimum. When he infuses his understanding of the laws into this, then it becomes stronger. And he's gotten stronger. And it seems you're still relying on the "charge time" argument. This feat does not show charge time, it's just him putting all his physical strength into a throw by opening these inner gates. This does not take charge time. And, since you're going to complain about the raws this time, the raw for the "100,000 foot tall mountain" is "万丈高山". This translates to "10,000 zhang high mountain". A zhang is 3.33m long. And so my previous statement of it being over 30km tall is an understatement, it's in fact over 33km tall. And, again, this is from his physical power, with very little true essence poured into it.

I think Escanor can negate this as the ability description says that the debuff is due to the difference in battle spirits. Escanor’s battle spirit is incredibly high.

he restrains people with his battle spirit, effectively TK

If you're going to ignore what I tell you, at least try not to quote it. A battle spirit is not the same as having battle spirit. It is a specific thing that is effectively TK and can attack the intangible. Escanor does not have a battle spirit. And it is not just the battle spirit causing the debuff. Give it another read. The grandmist space restricts them to 30% their original battle strength, and then the battle spirit restrains them further. You have not countered the weakening to 30% section, and so I'm going to assume that Escanor cannot resist this.

And, while we're on the topic of restraining Escanor, Lin Ming can cause someone to experience 100 samsara cycles by looking into their eyes. Can Escanor resist illusions like this, and if not, can he stay sane afterwards? At least, this will restrain Escanor even more, on top of the battle spirit and grandmist domain. It seems that Escanor will be unable to do anything to Lin Ming as he has not shown resistance to any of these things. From there, please provide regeneration feats from Escanor to show that he can survive attacks like Lin Ming's.

If fire does not work on him, he can use thunder, which Escanor has shown no resistance to. Charging up time is irrelevant as Lin Ming can cover his weapon with these energies to attack. Speed equalized, with Lin Ming's vast battle experience and ability to slow the opponent down by grabbing them with his battle spirit, Escanor will be hit by this lightning and this will damage him. In terms of endurance, Lin Ming has Dragon Blood and has basically limitless endurance (he can use his most powerful move, the grandmist martial intent, basically passively, this is the one which reduces the opponent to 30% strength).

And I've seen no proof that Meliodas is capable of doing anywhere near the levels of damage that Lin Ming can do.

Leylin vs. Aladdin

Either way, vectors aren’t atoms, neither is gravity, which Aladdin can also control

But they control atoms, which the Morning Star Domain either prevents or severely limits. Is this on purpose? Vector control in magi allows Aladdin to control the movement of matter. The Morning Star Domain prevents this. Either they interact, or they do not. If they interact, then Aladdin's vector control is at the very least suppressed. If they do not, then Leylin's attacks are immune to Aladdin's vector control.

complaining about atoms and elemental particles being the same

Let me just quote the pertinent section:

In his view, the world was one complete existence that had various focuses. His previous world was one that focused on atomic studies.

The Magus World, on the other hand, was a world of energy and laws.

In reality, there was only one real world. Atoms, energy and laws were all just the same thing viewed from different perspectives. These differences in perspective allowed Magi and the people of his old world to come up with different conclusions.

The Magus World is the world with the elemental particles. As you can see, atoms and elemental particles are merely 2 different ways to interpret things. The Morning Star Domain prevents control over these things. It also bends fundamental laws, too, so even if you ignore the fact that vector control either doesn't work or is severely nerfed and believe what you say about it bending the laws of physics, then it follows that 2 different physics bending abilities would clash, no? So, even if you ignore this whole argument about elemental particles, the Morning Star Domain still suppresses vector control. And, of course, by your own logic, physics manipulation is allowed, and so you cannot argue that this aspect of the domain does not apply unless you also want to argue that Aladdin's space magic, strength magic, and gravity magic also do not apply. Your logic is inconsistent, but you don't seem to care.

This is the second, and not final, time you call me a liar and you were incorrect every time as you chose to ignore context or just be a dick.

Nice ad hominim. Funny thing about this is that it provides literally nothing to counter the scan I posted. If I post evidence you're wrong, and you come out crying "stop calling me out on the fact that I'm wrong", then it's clear who is in the right. By refusing to address my point, you've conceded that it is a seperate world. And so, for you to be logically consistent, you cannot use the vector manipulation, as it is something specific to magi.

but this is you actually trying to bend the truth a little. Although it actually said they collapsed

Alright, post scans of Aladdin casting spells while collapsed.

which basically functions as altering the laws of physics temporarily

In your scan, it says they "may be doing the latter", referring to the space manipulation. So this feat is, naturally, in question. Do you have any further scans, or shall I assume that's it?

But that’s not what u showed Leylin doing lol. You showed Leylin just shooting multiple spells but separately so Aladdin can just counter each one as it’s being shot

Read the feat. It says Leylin casts many spells, building them up in number before throwing them all at the enemy. Allow me to re-quote:

Numerous rank 2 and 3 fire spells took shape in Leylin’s hands, forming a scene like the stars in the sky. While they were all low-ranked fire-type spells, amassing them like this made them similar to the legendary spell, Meteor Shower!

Even the two hunters that had broken away from the attack before still sensed immense danger and retreated quickly.

“Consider it an honour that you’re dying under this move.” Leylin smiled slightly. With the guidance of his spiritual force, the flames in the sky descended like meteors.

This section of your argument is pointless. Next time, before you try to counter something, make sure it doesn't already do exactly what you say will negate this counter.

And if you're feeling a little mocked, perhaps try reading the feats I post before replying.

I’m not being hypocritical. Leylin’s ability works because of elemental particles that make up everything in his verse while Aladdin’s vector manipulation is just legit physics manipulation, not bound to any verse rules as I explained.

In real life, physics are not their own seperate "world", as they are in magi. They are descriptors of interactions between matter and energy. The laws of physics are not a seperate dimension, or a seperate world. This is unique to magi. If you were trying to use “[fucking nothing]” as your proof, it literally makes no sense and actually proves that this is all just [magi] exclusive. [Vector worlds and physics] are not the same thing unless you’re in [magi]-verse, apparently.

Not sure if I said this before but magic in Magi is explicitly natural and it always acts like how natural elements work.

And this just proves it. Magi's entire world is based on Rukh. This is something verse specific. Of course, none of this applies in tourney as the natural phenomema of different worlds are NOT based on the rukh, and thus this is verse specific to magi, and therefore does not work in tourney.

Just because you're upset that my character's abilities suppress yours does not mean it's a valid argument to apply one standard to me and another to thee. Let's just agree that BOTH work, and therefore this horrendous mockery need end for you. And if they both work then Leylin's wins gg. Leylin can suppress many other beings with physics warping domains greater than the Morning Star Domain.

no remarks towards a change in laws of physics

“As expected, with a switch in worlds, the dimensions, energy levels and even the the interactions between particles are starkly different. The changes in laws are definitely a huge obstruction to Magi who travel between worlds.”

As previously explained, interactions between particles falls firmly witin the definition of the laws of physics.

“Devour has reached rank 6, now able to digest any energy” I see energy, nothing about matter.

I posted the feat of it devouring matter earlier. Stop ignoring feats when they contradict your poorly constructed argument.

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u/TinkerintheKitchen Aug 26 '17

/u/Mommid, prepare yourself for your doom under the hand of this senior's unparalleled might! All the world cowers as I pass by, for they know they are insignificant! A mere gaze can kill and to look upon me is to court death itself!

Meng Hao vs. Daemon Spade

With Meng Hao’s Eternal Stratum, he was able to reform after completely exploding into a blood mist.

Thanks for posting a feat for the Blood Demon Grand Magic. This does not use the Eternal Stratum, this is dependent on there being enough enemies around to absorb their qi and blood to come back. Under such battlefield conditions is the ideal location for this to occur. This is even specifically when he does not have the Eternal Stratum, because it runs out at the start of the war with the Northern Reaches, and he regains it at the end.

Also, if illusory isn’t the same as illusions in ISSTH, then why are you saying that Meng Hao destroying and “illusory” world gonna work on Daemon’s “illusionary” world

Illusory things are able to affect the world as if they are real. Here's an illusory hand picking up Meng Hao back when he was in the nascent soul stage. It does not matter if you believe an illusory thing is real or not, they can hurt you regardless. They are distinct from illusions by the fact that you need to use Daemon's "real illusions" to match the level of illusory things.

Saying they’re from the same army isn’t enough tbh.

They are both at the peak of dao seeking.

Does this change how their mind works? If you have proof of this, I’ll agree the mind control won’t work.

By the fact that you're avoid giving me proof that Daemon can affect people whose minds operate on different laws of physics, I'm going to assume that you do not and therefore your mind control is worthless.

When did I fan calc anything?

Really?

Wut? It’s true being FTL is illogical but it is quantifiable in a fiction world because we know what the speed of light is.

You calced the energy. You cannot calc the energy of an FTL feat because it does not fit within our knowledge of the laws of physics. For someone who claims I ignore context, you seem to do it a lot.

It’s the same as the XX and X-Burner feats I linked.

Oh, so if that's fire, then do you mind also providing feats of his physical resist, as they are not the same thing.

Does it act as a projectile? If so, what’s the speed?

It's not a projectile, he just spawns it in locations.

It seems like you can physically resist being dragged back as the imp was struggling at first and didn’t go back to Meng Hao right away.

Alright, give me strength feats for Daemon Spade. Keep in mind that imp is capable of shrugging of mountain level attacks without any damage. I'd call it tanking, but you seem to have appropriated that term to mean "surviving". No-selling is also an appropriate descriptor.

This is him transforming into a roc (some form of bird). It’s a speed buff for Meng Hao when he is in his original speed but unless you have proof that roc can fly faster than mach 500, it’s irrelevant.

"speed boosts don't matter if the original character is slow" ok

Speed boosts are allowed, it boosts his speed some unquantifiable amount. This does not increase speed to a set amount, this increases speed from base. Your point is bad.

flames of night etc etc

Alright, so you admit that he has never used it to escape a technique before. Perhaps there's a charge time. So do you have any speed feats for Daemon?

You’re arguing semantics. Daemon didn’t literally tank the attack but he could, which is the point.

You said he tanked it, and now are trying to brush it off when I show you that he did not. Do you really need to resort to such dishonesty to win, surely your characters are in tier and weren't chosen for autowin potential. Surely.

I showed that scan to explain that it doesn’t actually require the brain for illusions to work as even machines can fall for them. Meng Hao having his soul=brain won’t matter.

You're ignoring the point. To mess with Meng Hao's soul is against the rules. You cannot do this in this tourney. Also, machines are not a soul.

He did truly obtain the rings though, the original. He stole them from the prison.

Considering he does not have the rings on in earlier panels, and the rings appear in the same manner as the vongola gear, which you yourself admit are illusory, it stands to reason that the rings are illusory, also.

Even the Vindice that said that to Daemon don’t actually have this power, they get it from Bermuda like fuel that runs out after some time and needs to be refilled

Either your scan is incorrect or you're being massively dishonest again. There is nothing about Daemon and the dying will flames in that scan. Please post relevant feats.

I did give proof of his copying ability but the only reason he doesn’t copy those 2 flames is PiS

And I suppose you can just make up any feats we want if there is no explicit antifeat, then? After all, that's just PiS!

No.

It seems like this is because the illusion was of the person himself and is thus connected to him.

It says in the feat "Hurt the illusory, damage the true self! Between the illusory and the corporeal… exists Karma!" Oh, and Daemon is prone to make illusions of himself in character, and so even if you ignore this counter argument, you cannot say that this is invalid.

Meme black holes.

"the black holes are not actually black holes". What an amazing argument. Since you've been so helpful to post the scan of Daemon resisting being sucked into black holes, perhaps you should start by posting proof they act like real black holes.

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u/Mommid ​ Aug 27 '17

/u/TinkerintheKitchen

Daemon vs Meng Hao

They are distinct from illusions by the fact that you need to use Daemon's "real illusions" to match the level of illusory things (Dharma Idols)

Ok. I also asked for weaknesses that Daemon would’ve been able to find out but you didn’t reply to that.

Daemon can affect people whose minds operate on different laws of physics

First off, the excerpt you gave only said his body in general contained a “contained a natural law of Heaven and Earth”. Second off, this is going in circles. I say you haven’t given proof that Meng’s mind would be different in this situation and you say I haven’t given proof that Daemon’s mind control would work on supposedly different body.

”fan calc”

Here is the source. Researchers from University of Leicester ran some tests for this. The original link they put up is no longer up, unfortunately.

You calced the energy. You cannot calc the energy of an FTL feat

Yea, you can’t and I don’t think anyone does. The only FTL feats used on WWW are for speed, which is quantifiable. You’re forgetting your own argument.

Oh, so if that's fire

It’s not. It’s energy but it shares similar features to fire in some cases.

he just spawns (vortex) in locations.

I see. Well, we’ve talked about how Daemon can escape this using portals and damage is reduced by 6 + regen anyway but I don’t think we’ve discussed the possibility that Daemon can just fly out of the vortex if it starts to absorb him, which is a possibility considering this is a mach 500 fight.

Keep in mind that imp is capable of shrugging of mountain level attacks without any damage

His durability =/= his strength. I inquired about his ability to resist being pulled back towards Meng Hao so strength feats are what’s relevant. Also, this ability to pull people in is part of his Karma threads abilities, which I don’t agree they’ll work on Daemon.

Speed boosts are allowed, it boosts his speed some unquantifiable amount. This does not increase speed to a set amount, this increases speed from base. Your point is bad.

This isn’t a speed boost. Meng Hao transforms into a roc, a mythical bird, in that feat. It can be considered as a speed boost for Meng Hao in ISSTH because he’s slower than in tourney but unless that bird can fly faster than mach 500, it’s not a legit speed boost. Also, I’m gonna assume he can’t use his abilities when he transforms into a roc so closing a gap with this will only be in short bursts.

so you admit that he has never used it to escape a technique before

Good job twisting my words. I said he didn’t have to escape any technique with it and when did have to, he couldn’t.

Perhaps there's a charge time

There isn’t. He summons a portal and goes through it.

You said he tanked it

I said he has the durability to tank it and I gave you proof to why this is true.

surely your characters are in tier and weren't chosen for autowin potential. Surely.

Ironic

You're ignoring the point. To mess with Meng Hao's soul is against the rules. You cannot do this in this tourney. Also, machines are not a soul.

My point is that it doesn’t actually have to mess with the brain, which lies inside Meng Hao’s soul, as it can affect even machines that have no brains with 5 senses.

the rings appear in the same manner as the vongola gear

No they don’t? I don’t see what you’re trying to say here. The Vongola gear in this scan is clearly highlighted while the rings aren’t. Also, it was only the Vongola Gear that were said to be illusions by Reborn and Mukuro

it stands to reason that the rings are illusory, also.

So you think the author is wrong and you’re right for showing a possible drawing mistake? Daemon could’ve just put them on after that scene you showed.

There is nothing about Daemon and the dying will flames in that scan. Please post relevant feats.

You’re misunderstanding so I’ll repeat what I said again and try to make it a bit clearer.

Even the Vindice that said to Daemon he “finally obtained the same power” as your scan showed don’t actually have this power, they get it from Bermuda like fuel that runs out after some time and needs to be refilled. Only Bermuda was able to create the 8th flame and he did so on the verge of death and having pure dying will flames envelope his body as representation for his “dying will” and Daemon couldn't have recreated that.

I suppose you can just make up any feats we want if there is no explicit antifeat, then?

I didn’t make up feats. I showed you the ability, I explained the ability and you tried to use a PiS moment that was never explained as proof that the ability doesn’t work. I then showed example of other Yhwach with PiS that is not regarded as an anti-feat that disregards the entire ability of Almighty.

"Hurt the illusory, damage the true self! Between the illusory and the corporeal… exists Karma!

Alright then, fair enough. I still disagree with Karma threads working though.

"the black holes are not actually black holes". What an amazing argument. Since you've been so helpful to post the scan of Daemon resisting being sucked into black holes, perhaps you should start by posting proof they act like real black holes.

Man, what are you even arguing? I didn’t even mention the black holes in KHR because I know they’re not legit black holes...I posted that scan just to show that all of Daemon’s clones were grouped up in one place and I even told you this after you falsely called me dishonest in your last reply but you don’t listen. You then showed me a feat of Meng Hao black holes that he can casually bring up with punches and I asked you for feats of the black hole because a lot of black holes in fiction are bullshit. If the black hole doesn’t completely suck in and destroy the surrounding area, it’s a meme black hole.

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u/Mommid ​ Aug 27 '17 edited Aug 27 '17

Closing Statement

This wasn’t a fun debate to be honest. Too much shit talking coming from tinker outside of his meme roleplaying and continuously calling me a liar or dishonest over either of us misunderstanding points, which is uncalled for, but I'll admit that I also got riled up because of this. He even assumes what my counter argument will be and uses that to somehow insult my argument. He ignored points that I’ve made such as asking for durability feats or weaknesses of his ability that Daemon would’ve known with his Devil Lense and he rarely addresses the points where I prove him wrong and just moves on to the next one, such as me showing that Lin Ming’s attack required him to power up and also use up all of his strength. To be fair, another part of why this wasn’t fun is because of arguing against novel characters where a ton of reading is required, especially since I don’t know said characters. I can’t blame tinker on this one.

I think my characters stand a chance, although it is not a big one as a lot of Tinker's character's abilities really stretch the line of what's in tier or are just straight out of tier. The rules said that the more hax you have, the lower your damage output should be but for tinker, he had both hax and the most upper limit of damage output with his mountain ranges attacks. Aladdin should win with his vector manipulation and Daemon has a shot too imo. Tinker's characters all come from really long novels and he never addressed that I pointed out how a lot of his feats only involve other characters using abilities he claims he has too and that makes me think it's one of those cases where characters say they have the ability but never actually use it in character.

Anyway, I think I debated well and that's all that matters.

Good luck in voting

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u/Mommid ​ Aug 27 '17

Escanor vs Lin Ming

it's in fact over 33km tall

Nice in tier. Almost 4 times the size of Everest. Anyway, the feat can only be done by Lin Ming when he power ups by opening his Gates and using up all of his strength on that one attack but you didn’t address this point. Maybe Escanor can still survive this with his new peak, The One. I’ve posted his durability feats already.

If you're going to ignore what I tell you

I’m not ignoring it, I’m skeptical of it. I’m not supposed to take every word you say as word of God. I read the excerpts you send and read the context from the novel itself if necessary and determine if the feat is true or not myself and sometimes, I’ve actually seen feats where you tried to bend the truth. This is how proper debating should go. I just didn’t see anything about battle spirit being TK in the excerpt u gave.

grandmist space restricts them to 30% their original battle strength

I see now that it’s a separate thing but it wasn’t even explained in the excerpt you gave, just that it did it with nothing on how it does it or how to counter it. Lack of context like this is really annoying then you act like you’ve proven that it 100% works. Also, I guess that means the battle spirit speed debuff is unquantifiable.

Can Escanor resist illusions like this

Eh, Escanor’s only illusion resistance is that he can possibly withstand a concentrated attack of Blackout because it needed to be amplified by Merlin to work. A regular Blackout used as an AoE could knock out everyone in the entire Kingdom](http://i.imgur.com/rrw9R6U.jpg).

If fire does not work on him, he can use thunder, which Escanor has shown no resistance to

Lightning travels slower than mach 500, as we’ve already established. Of course I’m assuming you mean lightning and not thunder, which is just the sound.

Escanor will be hit by this lightning (covering his weapons) and this will damage him

You didn’t give any feats for this lightning other than it can coat his weapons.

no proof that Meliodas is capable of doing anywhere near the levels of damage that Lin Ming can do

Scaling from Galan gets him close tbh.

P.S. I asked you for Lin Ming’s physical durability and you completely ignored me.

You tried to shift the debate to your side by just giving me Lin Ming’s attacks and abilities and never gave me his durability even when I asked you for them so I do not have ground to argue on how Escanor can damage Lin Ming. I have no Lin Ming respect thread to rely on, unlike you do for Escanor.

Aladdin vs Leylin

But they control atoms

No, they don’t. They control vectors, which are laws of physics. This is the 2nd or 3rd time I tell you this.

As you can see, atoms and elemental particles are merely 2 different ways to interpret things.

That’s not what the quote said. It said that atoms, energy and laws are all the same thing that can be interpreted differently, which is untrue outside of WMW.

It also bends fundamental laws, too, so even if you ignore the fact that vector control either doesn't work or is severely nerfed and believe what you say about it bending the laws of physics, then it follows that 2 different physics bending abilities would clash, no?

Sure, does it have feats of doing that? Going against attacks based on the laws of physics?

ou cannot argue that this aspect of the domain does not apply unless you also want to argue that Aladdin's space magic, strength magic, and gravity magic also do not apply. Your logic is inconsistent, but you don't seem to care.

So you assumed I’m gonna argue against the manipulation of “fundamental laws” then with that assumption, called my argument inconsistent. Nice one.

Nice ad hominim

Ironic.

you come out crying "stop calling me out on the fact that I'm wrong"

Telling you to stop insulting me in an official debate is me telling you to stop saying I’m wrong. Ok.

By refusing to address my point, you've conceded that it is a seperate world

I didn’t refuse to address it lol. I literally addressed it as my first point in my previous comment but you refuse to address that and that’s on you.

post scans of Aladdin casting spells while collapsed.

Collapsed just means they fell on the floor.

it says they "may be doing the latter", referring to the space manipulation. So this feat is, naturally, in question. Do you have any further scans, or shall I assume that's it?

I don’t understand what is in question. Do you doubt it’s spatial manipulation even though it says they’re basically doing that? You’re reaching for a point here.

Numerous rank 2 and 3 fire spells took shape in Leylin’s hands,

If they all fit in his hand, they’re probably too small for them to actually overwhelm Aladdin. Aladdin can manipulate a shit ton of gravel. Also, if they’re all coming from one direction rather than from many directions like the sound feat that Aladdin had difficulty reflecting, Aladdin can just manipulate them all like he did for an entire army of angels coming at them.

In real life, physics are not their own seperate "world"

They’re technically not in Magi either. The one that was explaining it in that scan was oversimplifying it for others. Some people can see the things in these allegedly “other worlds” so it makes no sense that they’re in a different world. He just wanted to say that those 3 things make up this world.

none of this applies in tourney as the natural phenomema of different worlds are NOT based on the rukh

What does Aladdin creating natural magic using his own rukh have to do with you or your team? He can’t have his own power source either...?

And if they both work then Leylin's wins gg.

Even if we assume both work, you have given 0 proof that it would work on vector manipulation. You tried saying vector control controls atoms so Leylin will suppress that, but that’s FALSE.

I posted the feat of it devouring matter earlier.

No, you posted a feat of it sucking “surroundingg ice, earth, rocks, the remains and even the air”. That’s not all matter, as you imply