[Death Battle]Sephiroth vs Vergil

[u/Joseph_Stalin_]

Vergil Respect Thread by me

Sephiroth Respect Thread by /u/ShadowSphere

Round 1: Regular Versions

Round 2: Nelo Angelo vs Whatever Peak Sephiroth is.

As per rules of Death Battle, they're both going for the kill

https://youtu.be/8sdzSDKquiY

[u/Joseph_Stalin_]

Issues:

• Comic Book Usage

  • The comic is 100% uncanon, while it doesn't do much beyond add some more backstory for Vergil, it shouldn't be used. Very first issue had Dante wield Alastor before even getting to Mallet Island and altering events a bit. Mostly nitpicking since feats aren't derived from it

• Incorrect/unconfirmed Background Info

  • I have no clue where 6'4" came from, no canon sources afaik, same to guessed weight.
  • "Master of Iaijutstu", unless I missed it somewhere he's never ever been said to be so.
  • "Losing a Drinking", this from the first Light Novel, which has been retconned by the events of DMC3. This is an uncanon factoid

• FUCKING DmC Usage

  • This is completely different character, why the hell is this character used? Hell, this one died from being stabbed in the heart. While the DMC bois are weak to heart aimed attacks, they still live.

• Usage of DMC4 Text Files

  • They said Vergil was capable of "Lightning Speed Movement" and seemingly allowed him that super move from DMC4, which should be considered uncanon. These were only found in DMC4, which Vergil's gameplay is literally only there for a bonus deal he's only canonically fought in the Intro Scene.

• Feats Section:

  • Clarification on the Illusion feat, it wasn't made by Arkham but by the unnamed Demon. Arkham just led him to the demon.
  • "Defeated Arkham, Agnus, Beowulf, and Dante"
    • Arkham: This required the assistance of Dante, so can't really say it was him. Unless you count him killing Arkham, which he failed at, in the first attempt
    • Agnus: Wut? He's never fought him canonically, what does he even do that makes it noteworthy even if it was canon
    • Beowul: He defeated a weakened and blinded Beowulf, hardly counts as a notable achievement.
    • Dante: He defeated an Unawakened Dante, who was notably weaker than Vergil

• THAT FUCKING RAINDROP FEAT

  • Making this it's own section as this is important. This feat only exists in an uncanon narrative scene being told by a person who was not there to witness the fight. The scene was also retconned in the very same game, the feat comes from the intro prior to Mission 1 while the actual events transpired in Mission 7

• The Calc for Beowulf punching force

  • This is all going on assumptions and usage of uncanon numbers. They ASSUMED Beowulf's weight, and they ASSUMED the feat was also in Slo-Mo. They then ASSUMED the Slo-Mo was the exact same level as the Raindrop feat's slo-mo, which is uncanon.

• Scaling to DMC4 Dante

  • Why?! Dante was outright superior in 3 and for whatever reason they said he should scale to the most powerful incarnation(feat-wise)??! If a superior Dante's highest showing "highballed" is barely half of a the Beowulf feat, you'd think it'd be considered a damn outlier. This was outright stupid usage of scaling.

• Dimension Hopping

  • Only done by the DmC incarnation, the closest we ever see Vergil doing something is entering the same room Dante and Arkham were fighting in at the end of DMC3

• On The Battle itself

  • I don't really care about this one, they've said it was entertainment purposes only so I don't put too much thought into this. Only complaint is the characterization of Vergil, didn't feel like the Blue Dante I know and love.

• Yamato not being Dimensional

  • This point, I'm actually not too fighty with. They're right that there's plenty of anti-feats for the weapon when it's clashing physically. Some people assume that it only applies to Judgement Cut, solely because when Dante does a similar move in 4 it is said to cut dimensionally. I don't think it only applies to Judgement Cut, but any slashes sent from it as it seems to be magically created. Vergil's sent slashes that have more destructive output then anything done physically by the sword. This kind of feats are replicated when Nero and Dante use the sword

• Illusion/Mental Weakness

  • Vergil is 100% susceptible to illusions, it has been shown, but he's more than capable of breaking out of it. How much it'll weaken him depends on how fast Sephiroth can capitalize.
  • Mental attacks should be on the same level as Dante, so no special resistances. However, they claim that's what killed him. He was fighting back from Mundus' control and that's what caused him pain, not some mental attacks.

Overall: The "info" on Vergil was real shoddy. I cannot give a verdict on the winner as I know jack shit about Sephiroth, and can only assume that his "feats" and info was equally as shoddy.

[u/KevinLee487 → u/Joseph_Stalin_]

Comic book usage

IIRC, that scene is in the DMC3 Manga which is 100% canon

"Master of Iaijutstu", unless I missed it somewhere he's never ever been said to be so

Capcom themselves said this multiple times when they were covering him for DMC4SE.

Usage of DMC4 Text Files

Vergil's appearance in DMC4 takes place prior to DMC3, so they're fair game. Vergil's Super Judgement Cut is present in DMC3 and Marvel vs Capcom 3 as well. The big difference is that the DMC4 version and the MvC3 versions are just much faster. Likely for gameplay purposes as sitting there for 10 seconds waiting to move again would be really annoying during gameplay.

Beowul: He defeated a weakened and blinded Beowulf, hardly counts as a notable achievement.

Its notable because while Dante weakened him, Dante got flattened into the floor in the process. Vergil effortlessly 1 shots him. Its clear that there is a decent gap in power between the two.

Dante: He defeated an Unawakened Dante, who was notably weaker than Vergil

He mopped the floor with Dante in more than 1 instance, he tied once while putting himself at a major disadvantage and finally lost when the plot called for it. I mean what do you expect? Dante is the main character and DMC3 is a prequel. Dante getting Force Edge was a predetermined outcome as was Vergil becoming Nelo Angelo. There really was no way to have Vergil win that fight and still have DMC1 make any kind of sense.

THAT FUCKING RAINDROP FEAT

We just had this discussion yesterday. I don't think theres any need to repeat ourselves because we clearly aren't going to come to an agreement. I consider it canon.

The Calc for Beowulf punching force

Except for the canon part, I agree with you here. That whole calc was one massive assumption on top of the other. I don't think Vergil is anywhere near that strong, but I don't think Sephiroth is either. However I'd give the edge in pure strength to Sephiroth.

Scaling to DMC4 Dante

Dante's base form doesn't get any stronger from DMC3 to 4. Theres literally no solid evidence to support it. Hell theres barely any evidence to suggest that his Devil Trigger gets stronger either. Its logical that he would get stronger as time goes on, but he doesn't. He gets far more experienced and comfortable with his powers, but he isn't stronger than he was in DMC3. Nero was able to break his guard and punch the shit out of him.

Why?! Dante was outright superior in 3

If you look at feats alone, Dante is not even equal to Vergil so lets hit the brakes on that one.

Yamato not being Dimensional

For whatever reason when this topic gets brought up, everyone disregards it and assumes that if it was true, Yamato would always cut through dimensions. Its clear that the wielder has control over weather or not that is going to happen for that particular swing. Look at Nero and Dante's fight in Mission 10 of DMC4. Nero sends out a energy wave with 1 swing and performs several normal swings. Dante cuts the Hell-gate in half and swings the sword around a couple more times after without it doing anything extra. Vergil uses it to cut Arkham's hand off from a couple dozen feet away at least. The only thing we know for 100% certainty that Yamato cannot cut through is Rebellion for whatever reason.

Though for the sake of the fight, its better that it didn't just cut Masamune in half.

Its also worth noting that Vergil clearly was only using a fraction of his strength when he swung at Lady. Even if Yamato wasn't capable of cutting Kalina Ann, his sheer strength would have meant that it was going to cave her face in from the pressure of trying to block his attack. The logical explination was that he was intentionally toying with her since he knew who she was and he wanted to taunt her.

I also have to say that they straight up lied about Vergil's regen being able to be worn down. That has never been hinted at in *any DMC game. Even when he was exhausted, his healing worked just as well as it did when he was in tip top shape. He literally fell to his knees from exhaustion in Mission 20 and Dante still couldn't even leave a wound on him, let alone cut him in half.

Vergil had this in the bag but DB downplayed him HARD. Sephiroth is one of my favorite characters so I'm pretty familiar with him and he really had no chance. Hes not anywhere near as fast even if you discount the raindrop feat, Sephiroth can't travel anywhere near as quickly as Vergil can. Them claiming he could move at supersonic speeds is straight up bullshit. Sephiroth cannot teleport either which they didn't even say he could, yet he was teleporting during the fight?? Riiiight....

Theres also the bit where Sephiroth isn't even phased from being diced up by Vergil, which wouldn't have happened. He can heal himself, but it still hurts when he gets hit. Vergil would never allow him to get a healing spell (or any spell for that matter) off before being hit again. And again. And again.

This fight was entertaining, but straight up wrong on a lot of their claims and Vergil didn't act in-character at all. They made him look like a fucking idiot.

[u/Joseph_Stalin_ → u/KevinLee487]

in the manga

The manga contained only Dante witnessing the death of his mother. Also, even IF it was, that doens't change the fact the entire comic was uncanon. Dante had Alastor as his main weapon, changed events from the 1st game, and had Dante struggle far more even against Phantom.

Capcom said this

Links please, it's not that I don't believe you, but I haven't seen them. I only looked up DMC3, 4, and the manga for Vergil, and didn't check what the developers said.

DMC4 Text files is fair game

It isn't, DMC4 Vergil had Beowulf, Force Edge, and all that jazz from end of DMC3. I can't give feats from a supposed pre-DMC3 Vergil who had all end-of-DMC3 junk, that's too wonky. Also, Judgement Cut End is a completely different move to the barrage of Judgement Cuts in 3. 4 he effectively creates 1 massive Judgement Cut, while in 3 he creates multiple regular Judgement Cuts rapidly.

Beowulf

Beowulf couldn't fight back, he couldn't react as he was blinded. Vergil just blitzed a weakened Beowulf, can't fairly say the killing of Beowulf is impressive. How he does it, yes, it is, but he couldn't stop Vergil at all nor did they fight at all.

mopped the floor with Dante

He treated him as nothing in the Manga, fucked him up in 3, and that's it. Once awakened, Dante started caught up in their 2nd fight basically tying them. Once the 3rd fight, Dante was just stronger. Saying "It's the Plot" is a poor defense when it was clear Dante was getting stronger throughout the 3rd game.
Sure it was an outcome we knew it was coming, but don't ignore the fact that Dante was just better.

Raindrop is Canon

It is literally retconned.

Intro Scene vs Chapter 7 scene, it doesn't exist at all.

Dante doesn't get stronger

He does. Once awakened he punches a statue in anger, and accidentally destroys it. He was surprised by his new strength. Also in 3, he destroys large stone and is seemingly at least agitated by it, but in 4 A MASSIVE FEAT above everything he's ever shown previously he doesn't seem agitated.
Also, Nero "overpowered" Dante when he didn't take the fight at all seriously. Nero basically just surprised Dante, he didn't break through a serious Dante's defenses.

not equal

Dante has better strength feats, Vergil's only strength feats comes from cutting off a statue in the manga and scaling off of Dante. Vergil has better speed feats, that can't be argued. Durability, Dante wins this as he has durability feats. Their regen is equal. Skill they're equal, with Vergil most likely edging out Dante precision-wise.

Yamato

We basically agree on this. The sent/energy slashes are basically where it's at.

Regen

Agree, In my RTs I point out that regen never slows down ever. Their Stamina just goes to shit, but regen never fucking falters.

I can't say much against Sephiroth, I don't know anything about him.

Yea, the characterization for Vergil was very weak.

[u/KevinLee487 → u/Joseph_Stalin_]

The manga contained only Dante witnessing the death of his mother. Also, even IF it was, that doens't change the fact the entire comic was uncanon. Dante had Alastor as his main weapon, changed events from the 1st game, and had Dante struggle far more even against Phantom.

You do know there is 2 issues of the manga right? Code 1 and 2. Code 1 is Dante, Code 2 is Vergil. And why bring up the comic? Thats has nothing to do with the Manga which takes place prior to DMC3.

Links please, it's not that I don't believe you

Then why bother asking? IIRC it was in Vergil's gameplay demo that they mention it. They did one for each character prior to DMC4SE's release.

It isn't, DMC4 Vergil had Beowulf, Force Edge, and all that jazz from end of DMC3. I can't give feats from a supposed pre-DMC3 Vergil who had all end-of-DMC3 junk, that's too wonky.

If you want to nitpick that much, Vergil in DMC3 shouldn't have FE and Beowulf either because he never had both of them at once.

The DMC4 text files are fair game.

Also, Judgement Cut End is a completely different move to the barrage of Judgement Cuts in 3.

Why? Because the visual effect is different? He disappears, Judgement Cuts everything in the area and then reappears. DMC4's version is just far faster than the one he does during Mission 20 in DMC3.

Beowulf couldn't fight back, he couldn't react as he was blinded.

You say that as if he would have been able to react that fast. Vergil dodged his attack and was done with his counterattack before Beowulf's hand had even hit the floor. The only thing his blindness caused was not knowing that Vergil was Vergil and not Dante which wouldn't have changed anything anyway because he still would have attacked Vergil.

Once awakened, Dante started caught up in their 2nd fight basically tying them. Once the 3rd fight, Dante was just stronger. Saying "It's the Plot" is a poor defense when it was clear Dante was getting stronger throughout the 3rd game.

Dante tied the 2nd fight because Vergil tried to punch and kick his way around Dante who has a fucking 6ft claymore. Thats a massive range advantage (and if in-game is any indication, a speed advantage as the Gauntlet weapons are always slow) and the fact that Vergil switched to Yamato for the after-scene indicates that Beowulf wasn't getting the job done.

And their 3rd fight literally couldn't have another outcome. Blaming the plot isn't a poor defense. Its the literal fact of the matter. There is no scenario in which Vergil could have won that fight that would make any kind of sense whatsoever. Dante had to get Force Edge and its pretty damn obvious that Vergil wasn't going to give it up willingly under any circumstance.

At the top of their game, Dante has never beaten Vergil. He beat him once when the plot called for it. If they were to repeat the fight at the top of Teme-ni-gru again after Dante had awakened his Devil Trigger, it would have been a closer fight for sure, but I don't see Dante pulling off a solid victory. Vergil has the feats on his side. He has better weaponry, a more powerful array of demonic abilities, hes considerably faster and hes a better swordsman. The only thing Dante edges him out on his physical strength which isn't by much at all, and Dante is a lot more versatile with his available arsenal. Dante is also probably harder to predict, but its going to be very tough to catch Vergil out with his speed, power and skill advantage. I'd say Vergil wins 8/10.

Dante doesn't get stronger

He does.

Over the course of the game sure, but not from DMC3-4 which is what I was saying. In DMC4, hes still nowhere near DMC3 Vergil's speed, skill or demonic power. Hes got far more experience at that point and won't hesitate to use his demonic powers when he needs them unlike Dante in 3 who tried to bury that side of himself.

As for Nero, he completely broke Dante's guard twice. Dante tried to block Nero's punch in the same exact way that he blocked the Saviors except Nero sent him flying. The 2nd time, Nero was able to disarm Dante. Dante isn't stupid, hes not going to underestimate Nero after the first fight. He was legitimately overpowered. The DMC4 Novel I believe has a line of inner dialogue for Dante where he says Nero might be physically stronger than him.

Dante has better strength feats, Vergil's only strength feats comes from cutting off a statue in the manga and scaling off of Dante.

In Vergil's prologue scene, he casually sends a Abyss demon flying off screen with a smack from Yamato's scabbard. Those are quite a bit stronger than the 7 Hells that you fight throughout the first 3/4 of the game. Vergil also sent Dante himself flying into a pillar with a decent smack from Yamato's pommel. Dante has better feats, but the fact that Vergil was able to do that to Dante so easily suggest that their strength is extremely close. I'd still have to give the edge to Dante though.

I'd have to give Vergil skill as well. The game manual itself says Vergil is a better swordsman IIRC. No surprise really considering how much more time Vergil has put into getting stronger than Dante has.

It is literally retconned.

We have already had this discussion and its abundantly clear that we aren't going to come to an agreement.

Agree, In my RTs I point out that regen never slows down ever. Their Stamina just goes to shit, but regen never fucking falters.

Thats what pisses me off the most about this. They explicitly mention how Vergil was cut in half and it didn't work, yet they have him lose by fucking being cut in half. What a joke.

I can't say much against Sephiroth, I don't know anything about him.

The way they calculated his strength was just pants-on-head retarded. But they claimed he can move at supersonic speeds which is just a straight lie. I've only ever seen him move FTE once which was during Advent Children when he and Cloud are fighting inside a dimly lit building so I'd call it an outlier at best, but even then its nowhere near Vergil's speed. Sephiroth also simply can't teleport and his striking speed isn't even in the same conversation as Vergil's. Theres just no possible way that Sephiroth would have been able to match him in a straight up sword fight. He should have gotten utterly demolished by a base Vergil. Devil Trigger should have ended that in an instant. One JCE would have obliterated Sephiroth.

[u/Cleverly_Clearly → u/KevinLee487]

And why bring up the comic? Thats has nothing to do with the Manga which takes place prior to DMC3.

He brought up the comic first. You're the one who mentioned the manga in the first place. His whole original point was that the entire comic was noncanon, then you said "the same things are in the manga", and then he said that doesn't change the fact that the comic is non-canon and then you went "why are you talking about the comic" even though that was his main point.

Then why bother asking?

He's trying to be nice when asking you to back up a claim, which you haven't provided scans for.

We have already had this discussion and its abundantly clear that we aren't going to come to an agreement.

It really sounds like you don't have a response to this argument.

[u/KevinLee487 → u/Cleverly_Clearly]

His whole original point was that the entire comic was noncanon, then you said "the same things are in the manga"

No, I said that scene he was talking about was in the manga, not the comic.

He's trying to be nice when asking you to back up a claim, which you haven't provided scans for.

Do....do you even read? My "claim" was made by Capcom in a video. How can I scan that?

It really sounds like you don't have a response to this argument.

I already explained it to him before.

[u/Cleverly_Clearly → u/KevinLee487]

No, I said that scene he was talking about was in the manga, not the comic.

But Death Battle only mentioned the comic version of that scene, not the manga version of that scene.

Do....do you even read? My "claim" was made by Capcom in a video. How can I scan that?

Link the video.

I already explained it to him before.

There are other people reading who might be interested in your explanation. From an outsider perspective it seems like he's right and you can't come up with a valid proof that he's wrong.

[u/KevinLee487 → u/Cleverly_Clearly]

But Death Battle only mentioned the comic version of that scene, not the manga version of that scene.

The scene where Vergil is impaled with Yamato isnt in the comic

Link the video

https://youtu.be/BkHOaReOE0o

There you go. All 40 minutes of it.

From an outsider perspective it seems like he's right and you can't come up with a valid proof that he's wrong.

In Vergils RT, he claimed that the opening scene was from Ladys POV because Dante must have told her about it. I called him on it since in the intro, she straight up says Arkham told her about Sparda and she wasnt event present in Mission 7 so she cant possibly narrate that fight. Which he then proceeded to ignore and just repeat himself about retconning....within the same game. Like...really dude?

I also explained how stupid it would be to use the same cutscene twice and the cutscene in Mission 7 is much slower because its from the perspective of Dante and Vergil who can actually perceive what is happening at those kinds of speeds. The intro shows a portion of the fight, Mission 7 tells the story behind it.

[u/Cleverly_Clearly → u/KevinLee487]

she cant possibly narrate that fight.

It was her voice.

I also explained how stupid it would be to use the same cutscene twice

This is the same game that has Dante surfing on a rocket. If we're using "this can't happen because it's stupid" as an excuse, then we're suddenly playing by a whole different set of rules. And "this can't happen because it's stupid" has never been an acceptable argument on WWW anyway.

the cutscene in Mission 7 is much slower because its from the perspective of Dante and Vergil who can actually perceive what is happening at those kinds of speeds.

But we don't see the raindrops frozen while we're in their perspective, so why would them having faster perceptions make the raindrops seem faster? Wouldn't the raindrops be even slower then?

[u/KevinLee487 → u/Cleverly_Clearly]

It was her voice

And?

This is the same game that has Dante surfing on a rocket. If we're using "this can't happen because it's stupid" as an excuse, then we're suddenly playing by a whole different set of rules. And "this can't happen because it's stupid" has never been an acceptable argument on WWW anyway.

That is a whole other discussion.

But we don't see the raindrops frozen while we're in their perspective, so why would them having faster perceptions make the raindrops seem faster? Wouldn't the raindrops be even slower then?

You would figure, but we barely see any rain during the Mission 7 cutscene.

At the end if the day, its a pre-rendered cutscene on weak hardware. Perhaps they ran into technical issues? Everything is rendered in much greater detail during Mission 7. I cant tell you for sure.

Just for giggles, lets do it this way. When Dante fires his gun at Vergil, time is slowed. A raindrop falls at 20mph. A .45 from a 1911(which Dantes guns are based off) travels at 595mph which is 29.75x faster than the raindrop. Despite this slow down, Vergil is still creating after images with Yamato when he catches all 6 bullets.

[u/Cleverly_Clearly → u/KevinLee487]

And?

And I don't know, if I heard Dante's voice during that cutscene I would assume it was Dante recounting the events. If I heard Vergil's voice I would assume it was Vergil recounting the events. Occam's razor, if you hear the voice of Lady then it's probably from Lady's perspective and not some omniscient narrator who stole Lady's voice.

At the end if the day, its a pre-rendered cutscene on weak hardware. Perhaps they ran into technical issues?

So your argument is "they would have done this, but they didn't have the technology to depict it"? You could extrapolate anything from that. I could say they would have had Vergil turn into a giant monster and had Dante crawl up his back like in God of War but they didn't have the technology to depict it. Plus, if they really wanted to have that in the cutscene but couldn't do it, they could have fixed that in the HD version.

And as to your other response, if catching bullets is more impressive than the raindrops, why even bother mentioning the raindrop feat in the first place?

[u/KevinLee487 → u/Cleverly_Clearly]

And I don't know, if I heard Dante's voice during that cutscene I would assume it was Dante recounting the events. If I heard Vergil's voice I would assume it was Vergil recounting the events

Which would be plausible since both of them were there. Lady wasnt.

So your argument is "they would have done this, but they didn't have the technology to depict it"?

Its a very real possibility

Plus, if they really wanted to have that in the cutscene but couldn't do it, they could have fixed that in the HD version.

You would have a point if it wasnt Capcom we were talking about.

[u/Cleverly_Clearly → u/KevinLee487]

So your argument is "they would have done this, but they didn't have the technology to depict it"?

Its a very real possibility

You are crafting this scenario where you are making completely evidence-less assumptions on the part of Capcom to justify your conclusion. Why not look at the feats and make your own judgement about them than starting off at "raindrop feat is valid" and then having to come up with stranger and stranger theories to justify it, finally culminating in "what the developers probably would have done contradicts what the player is seeing". Isn't it kind of admitting defeat if you go "well, it may be this way, but I bet they would have done it this way instead"?

Also, read my previous post again

Read my previous post again, because I already responded to that.

[u/KevinLee487 → u/Cleverly_Clearly]

I consider it canon. It doesnt contradict anything. If anything, its the part of the fight that you play in Mission 7.

And I dont think its more impressive. Id consider it less so because even in the intro with the time slow, there are clashes that are invisible to the camera

[u/Cleverly_Clearly → u/KevinLee487]

I consider it canon

Well, that's wrong. That's why I'm debating you.

It doesn't contradict anything

Except that the fact that the two sequences are contradictory is the whole point of the argument.

And I dont think its more impressive. Id consider it less so because even in the intro with the time slow, there are clashes that are invisible to the camera

Then why did you even bring it up?

[u/Cleverly_Clearly → u/[deleted]]

Low-effort responses can get you banned you know. If the only thing you have to justify yourself with is "Nope", then you should start coming up with some new evidence fast.

[u/KevinLee487 → u/Cleverly_Clearly]

Also read my previous post again.