r/whowouldwin • u/Joseph_Stalin_ ​ • Dec 20 '17

Special [Death Battle]Sephiroth vs Vergil

Vergil Respect Thread by me

Sephiroth Respect Thread by /u/ShadowSphere

Round 1: Regular Versions

Round 2: Nelo Angelo vs Whatever Peak Sephiroth is.

As per rules of Death Battle, they're both going for the kill

https://youtu.be/8sdzSDKquiY

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u/LoIIygagger Dec 23 '17

Then how did Lady know they were the sons of Sparda?

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u/Joseph_Stalin_ ​ Dec 23 '17

Lady's narration basically says it was post DMC3, not pre. She retelling events, even those she wasn't there personally.

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u/LoIIygagger Dec 23 '17

Yeah and the scene is exactly that, a summarized version of the whole thing. And Dante would've most likely told her about the fight.

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u/Joseph_Stalin_ ​ Dec 24 '17

We've circled back. Let me lay out a few points, if you can logically explain them away I'll accept the feat:

  • Lady is narrating a fight she was never at, I agree that Dante told her about it, but she wouldn't know the exact movement in the fight.

  • Intro: removes, altars, and adds scenes to the Dante v Vergil fight. The adding of the scene throws a wrench as when the "full" scene is shown it isn't there. Especially since it was clearly shown when it was supposed to take place, during the scene.

  • Your claim that "it's the cutscene version of the bossfight," is merely an assumption without actual proof for it.

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u/LoIIygagger Dec 24 '17

Aight.

  • Intro as I have said Lady just summarized the fight and doesn't need to fully know what happened because the scene provides the key part: Dante getting defeated.

  • Those extra details were not added because this was just the intro and didn't need all the extra objects. When the intro started the two were already clashing and hitting the raindrops and so the scene where Dante shot Vergil were dropped.

  • The scene is the summary of the fight and that includes the gameplay.

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u/Joseph_Stalin_ ​ Dec 24 '17

  • This proves her perspective is uncanon. She doesn't know what actually happened, and only knows the outcome. Her IMAGINED version of the fight shouldn't be used

  • The Raindrop scene is added, that was no where to be found in the Chapter 7 scene. If the scene was just removing parts of the Ch. 7 cutscene, then there'd be some credence, but adding onto it is the issue.

  • I've asked for proof of you claim, and what you give me is another is another claim.

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u/LoIIygagger Dec 24 '17

  • This the intro with just Lady narrating it. Lady is just commentating. That is why I'm saying the scenes add explanations to her statements.

  • The rain drop scene is what represents the regular gameplay fight between Vergil and Dante. It is not added. The scene where Vergil pushes Dante and Dante shoots at him were not added because it had dialogue and it was too long. They needed to represent the games story without some dialogue spoilers in the intro.

  • The fact that it is the intro and Dante and Vergil fighting.

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u/Joseph_Stalin_ ​ Dec 24 '17

I don't think you understand the fundamental issue with your argument.

We've established that Dante and Vergil fight, what is legitimately done in the combat has been shown in the Chapter 7 cutscene. Your argument is, since the raindrop scene is them fighting and they fight officially in Ch. 7 it should be included, however you give no concrete proof beyond "it's okay it doesn't contradict anything."

I've shown you the raindrop scene is removed in Ch. 7, yet you claim "they fought, and the rainddrop is them fighting, so it still counts". You're going off assumptions, without actual evidence to backup it existing.

Unless you can show me them doing the feat in Ch. 7, them repeating the feat in a canon cutscene, or for whatever reason the writer/director/some topguy saying the intro is canon as well. I cannot include a feat that contradicted with just assumptions supporting it.

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u/LoIIygagger Dec 24 '17

  • The intro specifically made the characters not talk to add suspense. It served the purpose of having context in the game. My proof is that the whole scenes were devoid of details and lack of words being exchanged Dante and Vergil.

  • Again the scenes were meant to condense and give context to the whole fight. The obvious fighting between Vergil and Dante symbolizes the gameplay: cool and fast. The proof is that it is the intro and is made to condense the whole scene to prep up the player to the whole scene in Ch7.

  • Feats that are similar. Can't find anymore of raindrop other than intro.

  • The cutscene: https://youtu.be/BB6XPMdzzpY Dante falling down and chopping every monster while shooting.9:05

  • Gameplay: https://youtu.be/HtnBtEE_7Pc Dante dodging Geryon while being time slowed. 3:10 And I would ask but I don't know who to contact.

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u/Joseph_Stalin_ ​ Dec 25 '17

The intro only exists to give a player a glimpse of what they have in store for them, it was narrated by Lady in her retelling of events. Your proof is circular, "It lacks detail meaning X, my proof is the scene lacking detail".

It's obvious

It isn't "obvious", considering the entire intro explicitly shows where the scene is supposed to be in and it is not there. You've legitimately admitted that the scene was added only to the intro, and your only defense is an assumption(it's supposed to be the gameplay fight), and your defense to your assumption(cool and fast), and your 2 "examples" to help your case are unusable

When he's falling down, you have no idea how to gauge how fast he attacking, he can do similar-ish but smaller scale attacks pre-awakaning with "Million Stab", and is done after awakening in a stronger state. Raindrop scene was pre-awakening, and he's been only shown to do something close to that in a smaller scale.

Gameplay, is once again unusable, you could have Dante die from the mooks in Mission 1 and that wouldn't count as a feat.

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u/LoIIygagger Dec 25 '17

Ok, the lack of detail, the fact that the intro happens in the beginning of the game, someone is narrating the context of the story, and there is no dialogue excluding the narrator.

You talk about it not being the gameplay scene yet you have no counter at all and you just keep saying my proof are just assumptions which they are not because the obvious reason that the intro represents the condensed version of the story.

I'm giving examples, from throughout the game, that Dante can do the rain drop feat just like you asked. The falling down scene is similair to that rain drop scene because Dante was slashing and shooting at the same time.

I think we can both agree that gameplay elements like death and invulernabilty are not part of the canon unless text says otherwise. And to counter that I say how would Dante even tag or dodge Geryon? Let alone him defeating Geryon.

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u/Joseph_Stalin_ ​ Dec 25 '17

All these "minor" changes, the narration, lack of detail, no dialogue, and complete removal certain scenes. Any logical person would safely assume that this rendition would be uncanon, especially when there's full scene shown with all the missing bits and shown in "real" time.

No counter

My counter is that the raindrop scene is removed by chapter 7 cutscene. The burden of proof is not on me, it is on you as you're making the claim of "it's the gameplay in cutscene form."

Looking the same is not the same as doing the same level of feat, and said feat is done as post-awakening Dante. Raindrop scene is done pre-awakening, and we cannot say it is at the same level. Moves can look the same, but it can be wildly different when actually seen statistically.

Quicksilver is obviously, both gameplay and canonically shortlived, so Dante wouldn't be slowed the entire time. Although, there is a possibility that Quicksilver is on the entire time of the attack, you don't have to be as fast as the attack to dodge it when there's some distance.

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u/LoIIygagger Dec 25 '17

It is the intro to the game. It is supposed to give context and is not uncanon because it removes certain bits. It's supposed to remove the details that spoil the whole story and reason for Dante and Vergil's fight. Any logical person would know that it is an intro and serves it's purpose of summarization.

The raindrop scene isn't in the cutscene in the full fight because the player vs Vergil were put in its stead to create the scene from the intro: Dante and Vergil fighting. The creators could not put the gameplay in the intro. And what else can the raindrop represent? Its part of a condensed fight.

Ok the original argument was if Dante can do it. We both have given examples. Let's end it at that.

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